The State of The Car

[f6fhellcat13]

Last night Kitdy and I were talking and kvetching about the lack of commentary on new cars on UCP. This may be because we forumites are becoming old and lazy or because the majority of cars coming out these days don’t warrant it. So I’d like to leave this thread here for all of us who have some random car-related musings to get off our chests or those who are experiencing the Dog-days productivity slump and need something to do.

To say that automobiles are currently in flux is a bit misleading, because they always are, but I feel that we are approaching some sort of watershed moment after which cars will emerge a different breed than they currently are and people’s views of them will change as well.

Obviously the most visible trends in the automotive world are the varyingly-pathetic attempts at greenwashing and a few earnest attempts to allow Earth and car to healthily fraternize. I think that there may be other more subtle and perhaps more-interesting trends. People say that societies’ cultural tendencies cycle every 20 years or so; if this is actually true the value of a “premium” brand may have already reached its zenith. If the ‘00s were truly a mirror of the status and materially-obsessed ‘80s we may emerge into a new era of honest motoring aided by double-dip GFCs and all that fun. Alternatively, the monetary-status one-upmanship may be replaced by those flaunting their ecological-soundness. Over here that may mean the repopularization of sedans, wagons, and even hatches compared to SUVs, crossovers, and trucks.

While this new era of honest motoring may be refreshing in many ways, it requires shedding past pretensions and traditions; Mustangs now have four valves per cylinder and DOHC, Chryslancia makes the Themahundred-C, Mazda may axe their rotary etc... These may be hard pills for the gearhead to swallow but may well be necessary for the industry to move forward.

Diluting this honesty over here will be CAFE’s standards for the American automobile. Rather than force the consumer to make a hard choice by levying taxes on gas, the manufacturers are responsible for magically summoning up miles per gallon out of thin air. To do this they will no doubt resort to plug-in hybrid and Volt-like vaporware. This NIMBYistic and, frankly, stupid attitude towards increased efficiency will not actually move the industry forward as much. Gas will stay the same price, but new cars will get more expensive, so people will hold onto their used tank for much longer, hurting the environment and the car industry. If gasoline prices are brought up, not only do the Feds get a much-needed pile of shekels, but customers are incentivized to pick cars that in the real world will return reasonable mileage figures. This will create demand for genuinely frugal vehicles, not just ones that look like they are on the EPA’s dynos. There are definitely times when the market cannot be trusted to regulate itself, but I feel that higher gas prices would be a much less artificial push in the right direction than CAFE’s standards. I am not sure how Europe is handling it, but governments tend to be the same brand of stupid the world over.

So, as we proceed there will be two warring forces; the simple and light economical car and the ecobarge, struggling to overcome its mass with all sorts of technical wizardry. I should note that that doesn’t mean the simple car will be bereft of computer, on the contrary the ability for ECUs to adapt engine to their conditions is a boon to both economy and power, when I say simple I mean lacking in eco ancillaries like battery packs that do more harm than good. However, the CAFE standards are guaranteed, whereas the paring-down of car is not, but I’m trying to look for a silver lining. I’ll now look at a few cars that I think are what might lay ahead.

Mazda2 & 3 Skyactiv
This (the 2) represents exactly what I think is good; a small naturally-aspirated gasoline-powered car that, through novel use of existing tech and clever improvement upon the Otto cycle, gets incredible mileage. Its econobox status means that it need not be weighed down by gratuitous “luxury.” It is without pretension. (I also imagine a rotary swap would be hilarious.)

Ford Taurus
“Ooh, look what amazing mileage we can eek out of this 90-ton behemoth!”
It shouldn’t weigh that much, then. If you can make an oversized vehicle return passable mileage, why not make a normal-weighing vehicle that returns good mileage? (Though I suppose my love of B-bodies makes me a hypocrite.) I view cars like these as a waste of good engine technology.

Ford Mustang
Another Blue Oval; this one though has remained simple and has mostly stayed to its roots. Sure, it now has two or three cams too many and eight or sixteen valves to many, but it is still a very honest car. I can only hope that it continues to be and maybe even gets a lighter platform in the future.
Etc…

I know I have only covered USDM cars because as much as I read about other markets, it’s the only one I feel confident commenting on.

Other Trends

As for other trends, I think globalization of lineups may continue at its current rate or even accelerate if there is enough similitude in legislation that brings the previously-disparate needs of global markets closer together. This will have many drawbacks, with a decline in product diversity being the most ominous. If carmakers decide to force demand onto markets when they are dissimilar, the product may flop in one or the other, or even worse, like any good compromise, leave both parties dissatisfied. This is another inevitability, I think, that will probably not do any favors to the world of the gearhead, but at least it’ll shut up the “grass is always greener” types. :p
I also don’t think that large automotive groups are quite done killing off their problem children. Something has to give at Chrysler/Fiat; on the Chrysler side the Chrysler brand is the weakest, I’d say, and on the Fiat side all signs point to Lancia. These dead brand may receive a second lease of zombified life at the hands of the Chinese, which for you “death before dishonor” folks is even worse.
I also want to think VW will implode in the near future.

Styling

Style-wise I’m not really sure where things are going. LEDs will continue to make cars’ front ends chintzy. They will also probably migrate arears. There is hope, though, Audi who long pioneered advances in tacky styling, like LEDs, have visually slimmed down their range. They have significantly reduced the high (and rising) beltline and gunslit window phenomena. Audi’s work in the past has been emulated by the rest of the automotive industry, and for once, I hope they continue to do so minus the LEDs.

State of modified culture

The stance scene is near its end. Lowering a car will never go out of fashion, but I think people are beginning to realize that a lot of what was done in the name of stance and fitment is a little excessive. I think more functional mods, be they for drift or track will see a resurgence.
Hot rods will emerge simpler out of the horrible ‘90s custom-fabbed gaudy color things (whatever they’re called) and the more cluttered rat scene. I don’t think the rat scene will fade, I just think it will shed some of it stupider baggage.

I know that I am often disappointed by the lack of thought that I and others put into their posts here, so while this post may not be well thought out and organized, I did put thought into it and hope you guys can do the same in your responses.

[Wang Lung]

I suppose if I were younger, the current/future state of the automobile would be more of an issue. At 51, I'm hoping for a good 20 years of car nirvana. That time span will allow me to enjoy some damn fine examples of internal combustion goodness. I'm currently in a stage 2 Legacy GT, and am looking to an Sti sedan. There's no doubt in my mind that the do-gooders will legislate my idea of a good time out of existence. I just hope I'm not around to see it.

I don't care one whit about MPG, CO2, or Mary Nichols. Life is too short to smoke bad cigars or to drive a Prius.

[RacingManiac]

Read Lutz' book? The whole point on CAFE putting the burden on OEMs vs letting consumer actually go out and buy fuel efficient car through higher gas price was one of his point...The fact that EU does have higher gas price means people are buying more efficient cars that are more within their means.

[Kitdy]

I am going to leave what I have to say mostly in the realm of the North American market, as it is what I know, and what I read about online and in print.

North American car companies just went through a massive cluster disaster, with two of the big three going bankrupt. Just as they were getting back on their feet, we have the stock market collapse again. GM stock has been hit very hard, and the auto industry bore more heavily the wrath of the market than major indices such as the DOW, DJIA, etc. I worry for these fledgling new companies. So many jobs are tied to their existence, and they remain as some of the last great manufacturing titans of this continent, which used to be ruled by the working man and industrial production.

I grew up being indoctrinated into a dislike of American cars. Part of it was nationalistic; my family (and many Canadians) seemed and seem to take delight in the plight of our bigger brother. 10 years ago, America was flogging crap at dealerships. I have ridden in some circa 2000 era GM cars and they are utter garbage. Now though, when I see some of the things that America has made - Ford and GM in particular - I have hope.

I grew tired of Europeans shitting all over everything the US made (thanks to UCP for that) and I began to look at US cars in a new light. Detroit needed shaking up, but the product could compete. This is in jeopardy now though. The economy still seems to be broken, there are problems with sovereign debt, and the future is uncertain - something investors and consumers do not like. Something that could be disastrous for Detroit, which was just was brought back from the dead.

Ford is doing amazing things right now. Fiesta, Focus, Mustang; all great. The Fusion needs redone, and I suppose they do kinda lag behind in the green area but I don't care about that much.

GM is doing some things right, but other things, very, very wrong. GM is still leading in cash on the hood of cars, and this is something I am quite upset about. GM has some very competitive products out there right now, and they still need cash on the hood to move them. This is the old way of thinking at work - volume, not profit. GMC looks pretty useless in my eyes. There seems to be some old GM lurking in the new GM. 4 CEOs in 2 or 3 years is not a good thing. Whitacre struck me as a dick kinda guy from the moment he stepped in, and I don't care for Akerson at all. I think Fritz got a raw deal. Mind you, on the positive side, GM really led the DI charge, and has some interesting technological stuff going on (Volt, now small turbos in the Sonic and Cruze, and maybe even a diesel Cruze in NA).

Chrysler seems to have glossed over its problems by doing what I think are more of extensive facelifts than making all new models. The new 300 is very striking, and oozes class whenever I see it; it draws my eyes, but there are quality problems. The 200 got off to a good initial sales start thanks to Eminiem, but it is essentially the same POS Sebring but with an uprated interior. I wanted to like these two core cars, but the reality is that they are not that good. When I read reviews of them, I sensed the writers wanted to write nice things about these cars, and say they were near the top in class, but the reality was that they were not.

Chrysler has just attempted to tide things over before they can properly redesign their lineup with the aid of Fiat. I think that Fiat jumping into bed with Chrysler could prove to be a huge, huge disaster for both companies. The move Marchionne took was hugely risky, and his company seems saddled with uncompetitive brands already (Alfa? Lancia?). Chrysler selling cars as Lancia in Europe is just plain dumb. Dodge has a lineup of hugely uninspiring barges, and the Ram 1500 and HD are almost certainly worst in class.

Saab is a joke, and I think it remaining on life support is a goof soap opera. Maybe the Chinese will take it over. As hellcat said, for many enthusiasts, that is a fate worse than death. I would say odds are leaning more towards them simply folding.

Hellz also mentions 2 of the 3 cars I think are the best on the market today. The 2 is the car I would have if I could afford a new cheap car, and the Mustang - V6 or V8 - is a performance bargain the likes we have never seen.

A rarity that the two of us agree, but there you go.

The Koreans are going to keep gobbling up market share in the US. Since the launch of the Genesis Sedan and Coupe, Kia and Hyundai went from being the punchline of jokes to true contenders. The Sonata, Elantra, Genesi, Optima, and Forte have utterly transformed the landscape in North America, and my inkling is that the Japanese serve to lose the most. Japan had such a meteoric rise here, especially in the last few years when things went tits up for the big three, but now the Koreans could steal some of their thunder. The natural disaster in Japan is only going to help the Koreans gain more market share, which may be hard for the Japanese to gain back.

Troubling for me are the new CAFE standards. As much as I hate gas tax (and as much as my interest in saving the environment has faded in recent times), the current approach seems utterly moronic, and a totally political play. Raising the gas tax in the US as a politician would be suicidal, so one must instead obfuscate the price the consumer will ultimately pay by putting the onus on the manufacturer, not the consumer. I mentioned this to hellcat last night, and he and I agreed that it was not the right path to take (as he has written). The very high MPG standards could easily grind new sales to a halt, and give an advantage to automakers that place less an importance on the NADM (ie, all but the big three).

Ultimately though, the big monkey in the closet is gas prices. Gas pre-recession here was very expensive, and for other places, near unbearable. Will we start seeing cars become tame in the next 5-15 years? Will anodyne greenness via expensive gas keep anyone from driving tire shredding beasts? As someone that likes fast cars, this worries me, probably even more than model bloat. I know the performance car will survive, but I could see it be placed in an even less important supporting role that it already is.

The post bankruptcy era should be an interesting one. I hope that the economy picks up for the sake of everyone, and for the sake of these new companies. To be honest, GM is the one I fear for most. I don't care for Mopar anymore (though they were the bitchinest in the muscle car era), and it is GM that has the biggest potential to me to be redeemed.

[Dino Scuderia]

I suppose if I were younger, the current/future state of the automobile would be more of an issue. At 51, I'm hoping for a good 20 years of car nirvana. That time span will allow me to enjoy some damn fine examples of internal combustion goodness. I'm currently in a stage 2 Legacy GT, and am looking to an Sti sedan. There's no doubt in my mind that the do-gooders will legislate my idea of a good time out of existence. I just hope I'm not around to see it.

I don't care one whit about MPG, CO2, or Mary Nichols. Life is too short to smoke bad cigars or to drive a Prius.


Couldn't agree more...and we're the same age.

Hope I retain the urge for speed for as long as Paul Newman did.

[Ferrer]

Introducing world cars, in most cases is a receipe for disaster. That's because different geographical areas have different needs. And those needs do not arise from personal preferences, but rather from space, economic or cultural (amongst others) constraints which makes them rather difficult to change. As a result the cars present on those geographic areas will have to be necessarily different, not better or worse, but just different.

Traditionally european cars have been regarded as the best for the enthusiast and our continent is for the most part quite well shaped to enjoy driving. But let's brutally honest here, we do not all drive around in hot hatches and sports saloons terrorising the laws of physics and doing a million in the motorway. The reality for the average european is very different, even for those who like cars.

A very large proportion of cars here are diesel, with the aural problems this causes. We also drive around in small cars with low powered engines. In truth the average european car is a slow one. Fuel is very expensive, and there's an ever increasing amount of speed cameras and speed bumps pretty much everywhere.

So don't think it's all perfect here.

[RacingManiac]

World cars just makes a lot more sense from a financial perspective though. In GM's case, all of their entities, from EU, Asia, S. America, and NA, all used to have their own accounting, their own budget, their own testing standard. By unifying much of the architecture, and as much of the "invisible components", you are getting the max benefit of economy of scale, and you will still let the local entity do their localization. A good car will sell regardless where its designed, and realistically today, the divide between what works where is rapidly shrinking. Its not like European only drives small cars, or American only drives land yacht....

FYI the new Lancia 300 is pretty sweet....aside from the pure badge engineered exterior, the interior is much more upscaled than the Chrysler version....

As an aside, the new Bob Lutz book as I've mentioned was a good read. There are alot of blaming the other and Lutz coolaid in it, but the insight he gives on the GM process and why it was not working, and some background in the whole bailout deal is pretty good info...

[Matra et Alpine]

FYI the new Lancia 300 is pretty sweet
So a 10 year old M-B chassis gets another new badge ? :(

"World cars" make sense when moving forward and developing new features - Ford et al have done this with some success.

But the 300 if an example of a "world car" for cost reasons and I'd rather not see those continue at the middle/top of the market otherwise it drops down to cheapest component supplier and no innovation.

[culver]

So a 10 year old M-B chassis gets another new badge ? :(

"World cars" make sense when moving forward and developing new features - Ford et al have done this with some success.

But the 300 if an example of a "world car" for cost reasons and I'd rather not see those continue at the middle/top of the market otherwise it drops down to cheapest component supplier and no innovation.

The 300 chassis was never used by MB. The chassis was under development at Chrysler when MB came in. MB wanted it (rightly or wrongly) redesigned to use existing MB hardware. So the car got a MB rear end and suspension that was a cost reduced version of what MB was using (cast iron vs alloy parts in some cases). The use of MB parts certainly delayed the project which was a real pity because the 300 and family were the only real hits of the MB era at Chrysler. Only 2 years or so after the 300 came out the US gas prices shot up and really cut into the sales of the car. Had they released the car a year or two earlier the added sales might have made up for not using MB parts. Either way the chassis was not just a left over E-class chassis.

[NSXType-R]

Yeah, world cars make sense and all, but what happens if a particular variation of a world car doesn't make it to your market?

Something like Honda not getting the Stream to the US markets.

I would say it would sell great, but Honda of America thinks otherwise.

I was going over the figures the other day- the heaviest Crosstour is a full 400 lbs (200 kg or so) heavier than the heaviest Accord V6 sedan.

Why did Honda think another SUV-like crossover was going to be a good idea, I have no clue.

And I do not have high hopes for Chrysler. Their only product that should exist is the Viper.

Ford is doing an okay job.

GM is okay I guess too.

One problem I see is corn subsidies. We all know it doesn't work now, so why are we still siphoning off valuable tax dollars for something we know won't work?

The excuse is that to win Iowa in the elections is to appease all the hick corn growers. It's time to put politics aside and put the country first, a lot like a billion other problems the US has.

Other problems I see- Elon Musk. A company that hasn't turned a profit since its inception, I don't see why we should invest money in cars that won't be affordable in the first place. Besides, battery technology isn't there yet.

I never liked hybrids. It's a great stopgap, but it never will be the solution.

f6hellcat- I agree with your original statement- the current crop of cars are boring. That's why most commenting on the forum is mostly about cars made 10+ years ago.

[Dino Scuderia]

The 300 chassis was never used by MB. The chassis was under development at Chrysler when MB came in. MB wanted it (rightly or wrongly) redesigned to use existing MB hardware. So the car got a MB rear end and suspension that was a cost reduced version of what MB was using (cast iron vs alloy parts in some cases). The use of MB parts certainly delayed the project which was a real pity because the 300 and family were the only real hits of the MB era at Chrysler. Only 2 years or so after the 300 came out the US gas prices shot up and really cut into the sales of the car. Had they released the car a year or two earlier the added sales might have made up for not using MB parts. Either way the chassis was not just a left over E-class chassis.

Similarly the next generation Viper chassis became the SLS chassis.

[Matra et Alpine]

The 300 chassis was never used by MB.
My bad for not saying "DESIGN" regarding the chassis to take the components.
The MB used them back in the 90s.

[culver]

Similarly the next generation Viper chassis became the SLS chassis.

I've wondered about the back story there. Certainly when the development was under way it was known the chassis would be used for both cars. Did Chrysler do some, none, most, etc of the work?

[Revo]

f6hellcat- I agree with your original statement- the current crop of cars are boring.
If by boring you mean they are more reliable, refined, safer, faster, then - yes.

Unlike many of you here, I'm a bit narrow minded person when it comes to judging new cars. I have only one criteria - do I want it? It doesn't matter why. If I want it, I want it. Period.

I can think of at least a dozen new car models I would like to own. With price tag up to, let's say, 30,000€. Thus, current automotive industry is doing quite well. At least for me.

[NSXType-R]

If by boring you mean they are more reliable, refined, safer, faster, then - yes.

Unlike many of you here, I'm a bit narrow minded person when it comes to judging new cars. I have only one criteria - do I want it? It doesn't matter why. If I want it, I want it. Period.

I can think of at least a dozen new car models I would like to own. With price tag up to, let's say, 30,000€. Thus, current automotive industry is doing quite well. At least for me.

Which ones then? Are they European only?

There are a few I am interested around $30,000, but only a few.

[Dino Scuderia]

I've wondered about the back story there. Certainly when the development was under way it was known the chassis would be used for both cars. Did Chrysler do some, none, most, etc of the work?

"According to Inside Line, Dodge was indeed working on a new Viper when then corporate partner Daimler got involved in the project to use it to co-develop the SLS. Later, the Viper side of the development was dropped when Chrysler got into financial trouble.

Dodge engineers got as far as building an aluminum chassis for the model as well as creating a new suspension."

[Revo]

Which ones then? Are they European only?

Here is a quick list of relatively cheap modern cars that I fancy.

Peugeot 508
Fiat 500 Twinair
Citroen DS3
VW Scirocco
Honda CRZ
Renault Laguna Coupe
Cadillac CTS
AR Giulietta
Chrysler 300
Peugeot RCZ
Audi A5 Sportback
Fiat Punto Evo Abarth
Ford Fiesta
Renault Twingo RS
Citroen DS5
Ford Mustang
VW Golf GTI
Opel Insignia
Mazda MX5
Audi A1
Mini

[RacingManiac]

Which ones then? Are they European only?

There are a few I am interested around $30,000, but only a few.


Man you are way too picky, under $30k we are not exactly lacking choice, family car, sporty, or otherwise....

[Dino Scuderia]

One problem I see is corn subsidies. We all know it doesn't work now, so why are we still siphoning off valuable tax dollars for something we know won't work?

The excuse is that to win Iowa in the elections is to appease all the hick corn growers. It's time to put politics aside and put the country first, a lot like a billion other problems the US has.

Subsidy ends 12/31/11 after far far too long.

[Ferrer]

Jetta/Golf, Astra/Cruze and Civic are clear examples why the world car principle doesn't work. Also, I can think of at least two recent(ish) that didn't work either, the Palio and the original Mondeo.

Here is a quick list of relatively cheap modern cars that I fancy.

Peugeot 508
Fiat 500 Twinair
Citroen DS3
VW Scirocco
Honda CRZ
Renault Laguna Coupe
Cadillac CTS
AR Giulietta
Chrysler 300
Peugeot RCZ
Audi A5 Sportback
Fiat Punto Evo Abarth
Ford Fiesta
Renault Twingo RS
Citroen DS5
Ford Mustang
VW Golf GTI
Opel Insignia
Mazda MX5
Audi A1
Mini
I disagree on the 508, the Audis and the Fiesta. The CTS and 300 clearly aren't 30 grand cars, and the Mustang wouldn't be if it came under Ford's oficial wing (see Camaro, which is going on sale next month...).

[Kitdy]

VW does not seem to be embracing the world car idea at all. They are diverging from it. They have cars meant for Europe, NA, SA, and Asia as I understand it.

I think maybe a world car is not a bad idea, as long as you tweak things like engines, suspension, interior, for each specific market, which is what is being done.

[Ferrer]

But if you tweak things like engines, suspension, interior, for each specific market, isn't that pretty much designing a new car for each market?

[RacingManiac]

But if you tweak things like engines, suspension, interior, for each specific market, isn't that pretty much designing a new car for each market?


Its all in the platform, the "same car" is just what can be built on the same line. Toyota/Honda et al have been doing this for years. In that pretty much all Toyota plant can build any Toyota in the world, something that GM cannot, at least they can't before. Specific tuning exists even for a particular car in the same market anyway, a car with "sports" suspension will have different parts to a normal one, but they are still the same car. The most expensive thing for a car in most cases is the tooling for stamping metal, by being able to share those, doing 1 engineering process instead of 5-6, you are saving a TON of money....

[Ferrer]

But then again, Toyota and Honda have different cars for different markets. How many parts do the EDM and USDM Accord share? Or the EDM and the USDM Civic? Or the Camry and the Avensis? Or the Corolla and the Auris?

[Matra et Alpine]

WIth the Honda I think the problem was they had to make the Accord BIGGER to compete in the US. So started the "split" and the US had a car based on an older larger car chassis. Swindon added a European styling and suspension spring/damper but not really much else. So shared all the costs.
The major cost for cars is at the design phase. Billions of dolllars will be spent to develop the safety cell and suspension. A steel stamper for a body panel will cost 100K and amortized over 100s of thousands of cars. So we see some markets use "older" designs because they are known to work.
If you have a factory in a region there is no real benefit in sharing after the design/test phase as eg a stamper can be machined in a local supplier, so can add local differences. Same with plastics suppliers in the main.
Especially now with the cost of transport an issue local supply can be a greater advantage.
So I see a difference between a "world car" design and chassis and the final car.

[NSXType-R]

Here is a quick list of relatively cheap modern cars that I fancy.

Peugeot 508
Fiat 500 Twinair
Citroen DS3
VW Scirocco
Honda CRZ
Renault Laguna Coupe
Cadillac CTS
AR Giulietta
Chrysler 300
Peugeot RCZ
Audi A5 Sportback
Fiat Punto Evo Abarth
Ford Fiesta
Renault Twingo RS
Citroen DS5
Ford Mustang
VW Golf GTI
Opel Insignia
Mazda MX5
Audi A1
Mini

That's not a bad selection, but at least 11 of those cars are not available in the US market.

Coupes are out of the question for me- not enough room = definitely not a CR-Z.

The CTS I don't like too much, ditto for the Chrysler 300.

The one car that might be perfect for me would be a TSX wagon. Starts at $30,960. :p

Edit-

A Subaru Impreza WRX might be reasonable for $30K.

Actually, you can't get a STI for 30K anymore...

Mazdaspeed 3 and Miata are both under 30K, but no 2 doors for me.

[RacingManiac]

MS3 is a 5 door only, and its a decent size car....

Mitsubishi Ralliart Sportsback is a 5 door car also. GTI/Golf/TDI is also a car in that class.

Curious though, why do you need the room?

Ferrer as Matra said, much of the cost is in the R&D phase, much of the stuff, just because the car may look different, it does not mean that they are different. Suspension components stamping, casting mold, brake system , backbond/subframe tooling, all those are being shared by various model in these cars designed for all the market. The key for an OEM to do when they started out to do this process of unifying their design, is to get all the differing standard around, and build one out of those, one that will satisfy the basic criteria in required testing for localization. Then you just need to do one. As opposed to going through all of the EV/DV whatever testing for 5-6 different cars of the same size, you do it for 1, and that is the bulk of the cost for a development process. Yes you will still have localized spending, but that cost is much less vs having local doing all of their own R&D work. You can have the EU car tuned for response and NA car tuned for isolation, with US car runs on some big Gas V6 and EU car run a 4 cylinder diesel. They can still be sharing the suspension parts, back bone chassis, braking system, driveline components, gas tanks...etc

In VW's case too, yes Jetta in US has torsion beam axle and EU has a IRS, but you can bet you can take the beam straight out and swap for a EU IRS if needed(and in the case of the GLI, which is still build in the same plant, they are doing exactly that, what VW is saving is the BOM cost, reduced part count to boost margin). While Passat now is being heavily regionalized, VW is probably justifying that through the size of the US mid-size market....thats where the bulk of the US market is. At the same time the US Passat still shares much of the parts with the rest of the world car, just riding on a longer unibody....knowing VW they may well find another use for that chassis outside of US...

[Dino Scuderia]

Here's something severely wrong with the state of the car. This commercial asks, 'Where has performance in cars gone?'...then they illustrate that performance is back but in a SUV....not a Viper.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fr2aANJxZLQ

[NSXType-R]

MS3 is a 5 door only, and its a decent size car....

Mitsubishi Ralliart Sportsback is a 5 door car also. GTI/Golf/TDI is also a car in that class.

Curious though, why do you need the room?


I dorm at a college and I'd like to get mostly everything in one go.


Here's something severely wrong with the state of the car. This commercial asks, 'Where has performance in cars gone?'...then they illustrate that performance is back but in a SUV....not a Viper.



I saw that commercial with my father. We were both very appalled.

Maybe they should be directing us at Dodge Challengers, but not a Durango. I'd buy a SUV if I wanted one.

That was one of the most confusing commercials I had ever seen, especially when they harp on how sporty a Durango is and then end the commercial on a towing statistic.

That's a waste of tax dollars.

Imported from Detroit!

[Ferrer]

Ferrer as Matra said, much of the cost is in the R&D phase, much of the stuff, just because the car may look different, it does not mean that they are different. Suspension components stamping, casting mold, brake system , backbond/subframe tooling, all those are being shared by various model in these cars designed for all the market. The key for an OEM to do when they started out to do this process of unifying their design, is to get all the differing standard around, and build one out of those, one that will satisfy the basic criteria in required testing for localization. Then you just need to do one. As opposed to going through all of the EV/DV whatever testing for 5-6 different cars of the same size, you do it for 1, and that is the bulk of the cost for a development process. Yes you will still have localized spending, but that cost is much less vs having local doing all of their own R&D work. You can have the EU car tuned for response and NA car tuned for isolation, with US car runs on some big Gas V6 and EU car run a 4 cylinder diesel. They can still be sharing the suspension parts, back bone chassis, braking system, driveline components, gas tanks...etc

In VW's case too, yes Jetta in US has torsion beam axle and EU has a IRS, but you can bet you can take the beam straight out and swap for a EU IRS if needed(and in the case of the GLI, which is still build in the same plant, they are doing exactly that, what VW is saving is the BOM cost, reduced part count to boost margin). While Passat now is being heavily regionalized, VW is probably justifying that through the size of the US mid-size market....thats where the bulk of the US market is. At the same time the US Passat still shares much of the parts with the rest of the world car, just riding on a longer unibody....knowing VW they may well find another use for that chassis outside of US...
I do not disagree that cars that are apparently very different actually share many parts inside, and actually not cars from one manufacturer, but from different manufacturers and industrial groups as well, due to sharing the same suppliers.

Still that doesn't detract from the fact that a good number of manufacturers use cars that clearly different in terms of hardware for one market or the other. The aforementioned Hondas and Toyotas are a case in point. even when cars are available in different parts of the world, it's clear which one is the big player in each part, the i30/Elantra being a clear example of this.

[henk4]

That's not a bad selection, but at least 11 of those cars are not available in the US market.


Please explain why that is a criterion for including cars that are relevant.

[csl177]

Please explain why that is a criterion for including cars that are relevant.

A more relevant US discussion would be why those 11 cars AREN'T available here. :(

[henk4]

A more relevant US discussion would be why those 11 cars AREN'T available here. :(

probably for the same reasons because of which we cannot buy Dodge Durangos or GMC trucks in Europe?

Anyway, I had a glance through the main points of this discussion and I think we should refrain from setting price ranges. The same cars are very much differently priced in various parts of the world, for instance for 30000 US dollar or 20k in Euro, I could barely buy a base version Golf in Holland....

[Kitdy]

I think this is more a big picture kinda thread than one that deals with specifics.

General trends, opinions, and conclusions on the current state of the automotive market and industry, and cars themselves.

[Ferrer]

A more relevant US discussion would be why those 11 cars AREN'T available here. :(


probably for the same reasons because of which we cannot buy Dodge Durangos or GMC trucks in Europe?
Exactly.

I'm more concerned by lack of Mustangs and Challengers, though.

[RacingManiac]

I dorm at a college and I'd like to get mostly everything in one go.



IMO, my advice in general for something like that is don't make it your restricting criteria. If you are moving stuff like that every day its another story(in which case you would need a van), but you move in and out of a dorm once or twice a year(I lived in a Dorm for 3 years in my college years), just get a buddy or parents to help you at the time, or rent a U-Haul. You don't want to be saddled with a car for that purpose alone and spoiled your fun rest of the time....especially if you are buying your own car.

[Ferrer]

5 doors don't necessarily put an end to fun though.

[RacingManiac]

No, but getting a unnecessarily big car will...

[Kitdy]

What res RM?

[RacingManiac]

I used to live at St. Mike College of UofT on St. Joseph and Bay. Engineering at UT don't have their own dorm so we are using other UT colleges' dorm...Its a long ass walk in the winter to class to College and St. George where all engineering classes are...After my Co-Op year I moved home and commuted on my 4th year from Mississauga...

[henk4]

Exactly.

I'm more concerned by lack of Mustangs and Challengers, though.

We are now in Monterry using a Mustang GT...apart from the " thrill" you get when flooring it, it is not a car that would score high on my wish list for cars to import to Europe...after the " thrill" there is the constant thrubbing sound of the V8 which becomes rather irritating and then there is an absolute lack of any ride comfort. Maybe I am too old for a " sports-car".

and to answer Kitdy, the Mustang is only a marginal car in the big picture trend.

[NSXType-R]

Please explain why that is a criterion for including cars that are relevant.

I'm not saying they're not relevant, I can't consider them if I ever wish to purchase them in North America right?

[henk4]

I'm not saying they're not relevant, I can't consider them if I ever wish to purchase them in North America right?

yes, but when we are discusing the state of the car, is it a criterion whether a car is available in the USA or not?

[NSXType-R]

IMO, my advice in general for something like that is don't make it your restricting criteria. If you are moving stuff like that every day its another story(in which case you would need a van), but you move in and out of a dorm once or twice a year(I lived in a Dorm for 3 years in my college years), just get a buddy or parents to help you at the time, or rent a U-Haul. You don't want to be saddled with a car for that purpose alone and spoiled your fun rest of the time....especially if you are buying your own car.

Well I also have to take in account I have a large family too. But I'll keep an eye out for other options too.


yes, but when we are discusing the state of the car, is it a criterion whether a car is available in the USA or not?

Then no.

However, I feel the state of the car in the US is particularly worse than in anywhere else. I feel we're still SUV happy and the focus groups still think we like, need and want SUVs and crossovers. That's not really happening too much in Europe just because the streets are too narrow and you get better MPVs.

[Ferrer]

Then no.

However, I feel the state of the car in the US is particularly worse than in anywhere else. I feel we're still SUV happy and the focus groups still think we like, need and want SUVs and crossovers. That's not really happening too much in Europe just because the streets are too narrow and you get better MPVs.
SUVs have slitghly increased in number here too, once you had offerings from non-premium makers. However with size constraints, as you mention, but especially fuel prices they certainly haven't caught up as much as in the US probably. There's also the type of roads we have to drive on.

Bear in mind though that the Nissan Qashqai is a best selling car in Europe.

We are now in Monterry using a Mustang GT...apart from the " thrill" you get when flooring it, it is not a car that would score high on my wish list for cars to import to Europe...after the " thrill" there is the constant thrubbing sound of the V8 which becomes rather irritating and then there is an absolute lack of any ride comfort. Maybe I am too old for a " sports-car".
Much like the Mini then, only with a better sound and more oomph and probably worse handling.

I'd want to lay my hands on a Boss 302 and use it here, see how it copes.

[henk4]

Bear in mind though that the Nissan Qashqai is a best selling car in Europe.


a WELL selling car of THE best selling car?
And getting older I am increasingly understanding why people want to sit a little higher, and that is not so much because of the actual seating position, but just for easy access, you don't have to fold yourself in or out of the car.

[RacingManiac]

Also, by sitting higher up(more up right) it gives you a feel of more airy/roominess.....Which is why MPV style car, even though their foot print maybe no more than the compact that they are based on, they feel more spacious....

[Ferrer]

a WELL selling car of THE best selling car?
And getting older I am increasingly understanding why people want to sit a little higher, and that is not so much because of the actual seating position, but just for easy access, you don't have to fold yourself in or out of the car.
4th best YTD in Spain so far.

Second SUV is the Dacia Duster a long way behind.

For the easy acess there's always the MPV. Or the BMW 5er GT, should you be so inclined.

[henk4]

4th best YTD in Spain so far.

Second SUV is the Dacia Duster a long way behind.

For the easy acess there's always the MPV. Or the BMW 5er GT, should you be so inclined.

and there is of course the C5/C6, which you can pump up before you get in, should you be inclined.....

[Magnum9987]

I'm still waiting for some bright mother****er to actually build an Atkinson-Diesel. The technology is here. VVT, VarioGeometry Turbos, and refinements to the Atkinson engine have made hybrids (I shudder to say this) a success, at least in part.

I am however a firm believer in that hybrids are merely a trend. Rather than either develop the IC engine further (such as the Atkinson-Diesel i have mentioned) or the Electric Vehicle, companies are settling on a less than optimal compromise. The prius yields only slightly better than average highway milage (I'm talking for the USA here, I know for a fact European diesels such as the Polo Blue Motion eclipse its milage by 100%, literally). The new LEAF yields only a 120 mile range. Good for cities yes, but I know for a fact that Americans will not be content with being chained to a power outlet. For what they are, EVs of today are for overpriced. The technology of the EV can be stretched with the majesty of carbon fiber and perhaps solar power, but even then they will still be high priced and will still have a very limited range.

I applaud Fiats Twin Air Twin Cylinder Engine. Nothing in my eyes is more ideal using todays technology.

I want to see the revetec continue its development, and am praying to see it in a production car within 15 years. And maybe if the stars align just right, it will be in air cooled Atkinson-Diesel trim

[Ferrer]

I applaud Fiats Twin Air Twin Cylinder Engine. Nothing in my eyes is more ideal using todays technology.
Test have actually shown that it's very sensible to throttle usage, and not all that frugal. The smaller TSi also got mixed results. Suprisingly (or not) one of the cars that got better results was the conventional Auris 1.6 Valvematic.

[Ferrer]

All German cars have better "driving" features. All non-German cars have better "non-driving" features.

Discuss.

[RacingManiac]

GTR > All German.... /discussion....

lol

I guess there are some merit to it. Looking at the Americanized Jetta, even the bare bone model(I think its available for $14.9k USD, the 2.0 4 banger). It still has ABS, ESP, and TCS, even when it has no AC, or radio. I think a lot of Japanese econoboxes still has those as options, aside from maybe ABS. The presence of those being good or bad is debatable amongst enthusiasts, but definitely has value for average drivers.

[Ferrer]

I was thinking more in terms of hardware v gadgets and the general feel of the car. Lately I've been driving the Lancia Delta a lot, over 400km this week, and will continue to do so for the rest of the week. Being "reunited" with it I've "relearnt" that is a very nice car to go places in. The radio is excellent, the glass roof and opening sunroof, the seats, the suspension everything is geared towards making your journey easy and comfortable. However the steering is silly, the brakes stupid, it rolls badly, visibility is bad and it's been far too supersized to be driven in anything other than an easy open road.

Pretty much all of the german cars I've driven have been the exact opposite. Even the hateful Audis seem to have been designed to sustain high speeds and demanding driving conditions, if you gloss over the their understeer and the dead steering on some of them, but the brakes, steering, suspension and everything else certainly are geared towards it. Not to mention Mercs and nevermind BMWs. And yet they are less joyful and pleasing to go places with them. Gadgets and equipment seem to be worse and the ones that may be worthy cost a fortune.

[RacingManiac]

I think it has to do with also maybe their national standard for certification? Not knowing if there are any testing standard difference from TUV vs something like NHTSA, I am assuming since cars from Germany are rated to go on Autobahn, which means operating safety at the terminal speed of the car, which means it needs to have good high speed stability, good braking stability, ability to handle road disturbance at speed, and just a general confidence building demeanor at speed, that it trickles down and generally lead them to be better suited for enthusiasts vailue?

[henk4]

I think it has to do with also maybe their national standard for certification? Not knowing if there are any testing standard difference from TUV vs something like NHTSA, I am assuming since cars from Germany are rated to go on Autobahn, which means operating safety at the terminal speed of the car, which means it needs to have good high speed stability, good braking stability, ability to handle road disturbance at speed, and just a general confidence building demeanor at speed, that it trickles down and generally lead them to be better suited for enthusiasts vailue?

I think these "abilities" in german cars are vastly overrated. What you mention there is pretty much what every European car (German/French/Italian) can produce and probably most Japanese car as well.

[RacingManiac]

We have 2 Peugeot 407 at work here(yes in US), we were developing some suspension system for those car as Peugeot was a customer interested in the system. When we finished the demo car and brought it back to Europe for demonstration to multiple EU OEMs(mostly Germans), they are all puzzled why we picked such a below average car for demo car. So even though we demonstrated vastly improved dynamics, they are not impressed as the stock car is rubbish....

I don't know if that is a common theme with French cars, but I guess the German think so....I am not the driver so I have no idea if the actual feel behind the wheel...

Personally, my only yard stick is what I've driven. Some decent Japanese cars(Infiniti G and Ms,), some appliance(Camry), and my current car, the GTI. The Infiniti is good. They are stable, good handling, but slightly incoherent near limit. Toyota is rubbish all together. GTI is predictable and stable at speed. But granted, GTI is probably the only car I've pushed really hard on.

[pimento]

The various Volvo 850s I've driven have had good brakes, good suspension, good visibility, good high speed stability/ride and good radios, so it's not just the germans.

[henk4]

I don't know if that is a common theme with French cars, but I guess the German think so....

you just said it....

[Ferrer]

The various Volvo 850s I've driven have had good brakes, good suspension, good visibility, good high speed stability/ride and good radios, so it's not just the germans.
The Mini has an average radio, a sat nav system that's not simple, impossible suspension and there is pretty much no space in the back at all. However everything that's related to driving is top notch.

I also remember the Renault Scènic Mk 1 we had ages ago. Again, a nice place to be. But if you wanted to test the laws of physics not the car to be in. and something similar can be said for the Hyundai. Despite the entertaining handling, I must admit.

[Ferrer]

Another thing in favour of german cars, as far as driving is concerned, is that they don't seem to have suffered from the supersizing trend as much as other cars.

[NSXType-R]

Just curious- why can the Hyundai Accent reach 40 mpg highway while the Fiat 500 only gets 32 mpg highway?

These are EPA figures of course, but the price of both cars is approximately the same, but the Hyundai seems to be the better buy, just on the fact that the Hyundai is a bigger car.

Forget about driving dynamics, I'm looking at it from an appliance standpoint.

[pimento]

EPA testing inaccuracies? The Hyundai was probably developed with those tests in mind, whereas the Fiat would've been looking towards Euro tests.

[Ferrer]

Aerodynamics probably, as well as taller gear ratios and a more efficient engine maybe. Those are the possible explanations I can think of.

From the appliance point of view a Panda or a Punto are far better options than the 500. Maybe even a MiTo.

By the way, does anyone know if the following actually translates to real life? When there are several cars based on the same mechanical hardware it's usually the more expensive that gets the best advertised performance and fuel consumption, is it true when you drive them on the road or are it's just better official figures and nothing else?

[pimento]

There are probably citable examples that will 'prove' it both ways. There are many variables in the castle.

[Ferrer]

I would like to test pairs of cars to see if it really does happen or not. Like A3 v Octavia, C30 v Focus or the aforementioned MiTo v Punto.

[RacingManiac]

Or Prius vs CT200h....

On that Hyundai vs Fiat thing, maybe Hyundai does a more US style gearing and has a really tall top gear?

[Ferrer]

Having the gear ratios would help, altough in eco conscious commie Euroland gear ratios are getting taller as well, sometimes ridiculously.

Also, are we comparing manuals or automatics? And what sort of engines?

[RacingManiac]

Its really vehicle dependent I find.....my old Camry was a 4 speed auto and 4th gear was a tall overdrive for the 2.2 liter 4 that makes only 130bhp. But that means at 85-90mph, I am still under 3000 rpm, and I am still getting over 30mpg. At that point though you'll be hard pressed to pass someone in 4th, so pretty much any kind of tip-in on the throttle the car will kick down to 3rd....My dad's G35 with its 5 speed auto at the same speed is pretty similar in rpm, but relative to that motor the car can still pull pretty hard at speed and I think it actually may be geared close to the limited top speed of 145mph. A rental 04 Pontiac Grand Prix I drove once with its 4 speed, electronically limited to 110mph, in 4th I think its turning @ 2500 rpm, driving at 110mph.....

[Ferrer]

Well, I've never driven a car (properly and that I can recall) with a manual gearbox that does not achieve its top speed in top gear and that has a overdrive ratio. As a result you always have a reserve of acceleration even in 5th or 6th. However, sometimes I wonder if, in terms of fuel consumption, it's better to floor it in top gear or drop a gear or two and push less the loud pedal to achieve similar acceleration.

This is less relevant in automatic, in my opinion, since it's the car which will decide which gear is best for a given amount of acceleration (altough now you can choose gear manually, but the system can still override you sometimes).

[RacingManiac]

Don't lug the engine unless you have to....downshift if you have rev to spare...

I think even Corvette in US have such a ridiculously tall top gear that you hit top speed in 5th rather than 6th.

Newer cars with like 7 or 8 speed box, I think they can afford to make the extra gear overdrive for economy...

[Ferrer]

I think the manual EDM Camaro SS has a 67km/h @ 1000rpm sixth gear. I doubt any manual gearbox, petrol engined european car has something comparable or that gets even close, supercars excepted.

As a comparison those are the speeds every 1000rpm in sixth for the EDM Corvettes:

-Standard: 73km/h
-Grand Sport: 72,5km/h
-Z06: 72,5km/h
-ZR1: 53,2km/h

[Ferrer]

The average speed of America's 5 Fastest Roads is laughable.

In a hurry? Try one of Americas 5 Fastest Roads (http://www.autoblog.com/2011/08/23/in-a-hurry-try-one-of-americas-5-fastest-roads/)

Discuss.

[RacingManiac]

Consider most of those road probably have posted limit less than the actual average speed....they are already pretty fast...

We don't have the EU's higher speed limit aside from some states further south(in MI highway limit is 70mph, or 112km/h), and some interstates here I'd be afraid of going too fast mainly for the poor condition they are in, and I think a general lack of competence/awareness of the drivers here...

[henk4]

and I think a general lack of competence/awareness of the drivers here...

correct....indicators? mwah....rear mirrors: to check your hair...merging? what's that?

[RacingManiac]

Yeah no kidding, I saw a woman on my drive to work doing a U-turn into traffic while still texting on the freaking phone....

[henk4]

Yeah no kidding, I saw a woman on my drive to work doing a U-turn into traffic while still texting on the freaking phone....

I had a good discussion with a member of the California Highway Police the other day while waiting for the Pebble Tour Cars to come by. The use of the cell phone while driving seems to be one of things that they very keenly after and a ticket is about 200 dollar (first offence). He also mentioned that not wearing a safety belt was still an issue. He once had stopped a man who said his belt did not work, because when pulling it down it got stuck. It already did not work for 14 years...however the CHP officer gently pulled the belt down, et voila, it worked. Yet the driver said he had no intention to ever use it...

[Ferrer]

Consider most of those road probably have posted limit less than the actual average speed....they are already pretty fast...

We don't have the EU's higher speed limit aside from some states further south(in MI highway limit is 70mph, or 112km/h), and some interstates here I'd be afraid of going too fast mainly for the poor condition they are in, and I think a general lack of competence/awareness of the drivers here...
Well, the posted speed limits here aren't that much higher (120km/h or 75mph), but the actual average speed, of all cars not the 5% fastest, of the AP-7 (the motorway that run from the French border to the Spanish border along the coast in Catalunya) is actually 134km/h or 83mph.

As for competence/awareness, apart from everything that has already been mentioned, in the states overtaking in the right lane/s isn't forbidden, is it?

[henk4]

As for competence/awareness, apart from everything that has already been mentioned, in the states overtaking in the right lane/s isn't forbidden, is it?

no it is not, but there still is a general rule to keep to the right, which is many times not being adhered to. Yet the number of zig-zagging cars I noticed was rather small. So in stead of passing on the right, most drivers prefer to slow down a little and stay behind the car on the left lane.

EDIT: But driving behaviour has little to do with the state of the car, but more with all the gadgets now available in (and outside) the car

[Kitdy]

I have driven in the States, Canada, and Scotland (briefly). I have heard anecdotally that the UK has far crazier drivers than we do (and seen them when being driven there - watch out pedestrians!), and I think I have heard that the continent is even worse.

I was talking about this the other day with my friends and we agreed that North American drivers are probably the tamest in the world.

[Kitdy]

EDIT: Double post.

Also, I just got back from a weekend in Montreal to visit friends and see the Grand-Am and Nationwide race there. I drove a steady 130 km/h for about 90% of the way from Montreal to Toronto. Way slower than European speeds, but it was comfortable and the road was very well maintained... In Ontario. Quebec has some infrastructural problems, to say the least.

Also, this has nothing to do with the thread topic.

[f6fhellcat13]

Also, this has nothing to do with the thread topic.
Yes, please. Can we keep this thread to the hardware, not the software behind the wheel?


Another thing in favour of german cars, as far as driving is concerned, is that they don't seem to have suffered from the supersizing trend as much as other cars.

Are you saying that they are still as engaging to drive or that they haven't grown as much as others?
I haven't driven a contemporary German car, but they certainly have grown in weight ad size. I would say that they are a more pure drive because everyone is trying to build a German car, however the Germans have been doing that for the past century so they have a bit of a head start.

[Ferrer]

Are you saying that they are still as engaging to drive or that they haven't grown as much as others?
I haven't driven a contemporary German car, but they certainly have grown in weight ad size. I would say that they are a more pure drive because everyone is trying to build a German car, however the Germans have been doing that for the past century so they have a bit of a head start.
Growth thing.

The Hyundai is a big car, especially you consider width, and the Lancia is downright massive. The Germans on the other hand seem to make their cars relatively compact. The 3er for instance is about the same size as the Delta, and far narrower IIRC.

[NSXType-R]

Yeah no kidding, I saw a woman on my drive to work doing a U-turn into traffic while still texting on the freaking phone....

Distracted drivers are scary drivers. Agreed.


I had a good discussion with a member of the California Highway Police the other day while waiting for the Pebble Tour Cars to come by. The use of the cell phone while driving seems to be one of things that they very keenly after and a ticket is about 200 dollar (first offence). He also mentioned that not wearing a safety belt was still an issue. He once had stopped a man who said his belt did not work, because when pulling it down it got stuck. It already did not work for 14 years...however the CHP officer gently pulled the belt down, et voila, it worked. Yet the driver said he had no intention to ever use it...

NY made it a bigger deal now, they can pull you over just for being on the phone. Before it had to be that you could only get pulled over if you had other violations in addition to being on the phone.

However, there was a massive ticket fixing scandal and cops don't pull you over for stupid stuff anymore. I heard it's a sort of protest.


I think it's a sad state of affairs right now, the car. Especially when Ford is focusing on bringing internet into cars. I think that's more of a marketing thing- "Hey look how cool our cars are, we have internet! So you can go on Youtube while driving at 100 mph and check your texts all at once to save time while your 6 kids are pacified by the 24 DVD players and screens in 4 rows behind you!"

Did anyone think that a moving car is actually a projectile?

I haven't even mentioned the fact that getting a license I think is way too easy...

[RacingManiac]

I think its stemming from the insecurity of the automotive sector. The phones, the tablet, the TV and other consumer electronics are constantly getting newer, better, and faster. While cars, to you and me who are enthusiasts, are getting better also, but to average consumer, they want more gadgets and the flash. So car companies are just doing the same to match...

[Ferrer]

Are they actually getting better, even to us?

[RacingManiac]

Your lofty standard not withstanding, yes.....IMO, unnecessary romance to "good 'ol days" need not apply.

Bigger car(+ or - is subjective), more power, better fuel economy, more accessible performance, better reliability. They are measurable metrics, and the newer cars are better than before. Yes they are gaining heft and the increases are incremental, but at the same token the regulation are getting more stringent in emission control and safety, and the OEs are meeting them and still improving on those metric.

[Ferrer]

Surely, and you even forget safety, comfort, ease of use, kinder to the environment, etc.

But everytime I drove a friend's 1991 Polo GT I was reminded what it is that I like about cars. It was a steering wheel, some pedals a gear lever and little else mattered. It had power nothing and you had to do pretty much everything. I have to say, even if it wasn't particularly good example of an old car, I enjoyed pretty much every occasion behind the wheel.

I'd even say that if it's for anyone that cars are getting better is for general public not enthusiasts. Because were cars have progressed greatly is as a means of transportation. But as something to enjoy, to feel, to have fun in, to be connected, have they progressed as much?

[RacingManiac]

My metric of fun is kinda skewed. My memories of cars are generally Japanese econoboxes, from the cars my parents drove in Taiwan, or the Camry that we got when we moved to Canada. The first car that was "fun" was a G35. But all that was out the window once I get to drive the FSAE cars. Needless to say nothing else is as fun until I get to drive something like an out and out race car. What I am driving now is plenty fun, tossable and easy to live with. How that may compare to the past I have no clue.

As I said though, the standard for which cars are built and designed have moved on. The simple box with a steering wheel and 3 pedals cannot be made the same as they used to. The need to meet fuel economy standard drives the need to electrify many items and as a result driver might be less directly connected. But I think OEs are making good strides in getting cars to work well under the circumstances.

I have to say though, driver aids are PITA....in the GTI they can't be off completely....

[Ferrer]

Well let me put it this way, is the Jaguar XF 4.2 I drive from time to time more enjoyable than the little 1.3 litre Polo GT was? The Jag is certainly more powerful, faster, louder, and it has rear wheel drive. But as I said the Polo feels more direct, a purer experience. It's not about performance, but about being involved in the process of performance. In that aspect it doesn't matter whether you drove a Japanese econobox or a BMW M3 E30, the principle still stays the same.

Thankfully not all is lost. There are still cheap and cheerful cars to be enjoyed, like the Renault Twingo, the Toyota Aygo or maybe this new recently presented Volkswagen city car. Even the Hyundai we have is quite good fun, and other than ABS and power steering it has no driver aids whatsoever. However, I'm worried than other than basic transportation we may very well have lost the battle forever.

[RacingManiac]

Actually that is interesting, I was also thinking about stuff like that. I drive a 3 door hatch right now, its small car, not that fast, relatively light on its feet(by US standard, probably obese by EU standard). The car is nimble, tossable, I can charge at a green light right turn, or drive spiritly on the rare nice piece of road I see with little worry or consequence(relatively speaking). I go to autoX on weekends and still trundle around town normally and get decent(not great) gas mileage. I look at cars like 370Z, or Corvette, or Camaro or something, all of which are probably faster and more grip, and RWD and so on. But I can't see myself doing the same thing I do now with a hatchback. I can see I can get that satisfaction of stumping on the gas and push back in my seat, but I can't see me enjoying that nimbleness that I feel with the car now. I drive my dad's G35 sometimes even now, and no contest that is just plainly a faster car, but it doesn't shrink to you or make you feel in totally in control. And I just won't push it as much as I'd with my GTI. And the G even has sticker summer tire....

Now in my current life situation, being no kids, single, renting an apartment and have a steady income. I have no incentive of getting a bigger car, even if it means a faster ride. What I have now works well for me. I guess as my priority changes that might change, it'll move me to a bigger car, and if I can afford it a bigger performance car. And when your life situation moves to a point where you can have a "toy", then those fancy sportscar will come in play....

On that note, a 2nd car to have for me if I can afford it that I can see being a hoot to own and fully exploit, maybe something like a S2000. In my situation if I have more dough to spend, a RS3 or 1M might be fun....or cheaper, the rally style car like STI or EVO, as I am still very much intrigued by them....

[Kitdy]

No Genesis Coupe for you RM?

[RacingManiac]

No likey the penis shape side window.....lol

I still have some cultural based prejudice to Korean cars also.....

[Ferrer]

Actually that is interesting, I was also thinking about stuff like that. I drive a 3 door hatch right now, its small car, not that fast, relatively light on its feet(by US standard, probably obese by EU standard). The car is nimble, tossable, I can charge at a green light right turn, or drive spiritly on the rare nice piece of road I see with little worry or consequence(relatively speaking). I go to autoX on weekends and still trundle around town normally and get decent(not great) gas mileage. I look at cars like 370Z, or Corvette, or Camaro or something, all of which are probably faster and more grip, and RWD and so on. But I can't see myself doing the same thing I do now with a hatchback. I can see I can get that satisfaction of stumping on the gas and push back in my seat, but I can't see me enjoying that nimbleness that I feel with the car now. I drive my dad's G35 sometimes even now, and no contest that is just plainly a faster car, but it doesn't shrink to you or make you feel in totally in control. And I just won't push it as much as I'd with my GTI. And the G even has sticker summer tire....
I think we should then separate advancement in terms of transportation and advancement in terms of feel. In the former I think the car industry has made definite progress, but I'm not so sure in the latter, at least in the last 15 or 20 years. Clear examples of this are the New Mini Mk 1 and Mk 2, and the three generations of Ford Focus. Each time they substituted cars they improved, but some of the magic was lost. And magic is what enthusiasts search for in a car. It doesn't matter if it's a 15 grand econobox or a 1 and half mill supercar.

Now in my current life situation, being no kids, single, renting an apartment and have a steady income. I have no incentive of getting a bigger car, even if it means a faster ride. What I have now works well for me. I guess as my priority changes that might change, it'll move me to a bigger car, and if I can afford it a bigger performance car. And when your life situation moves to a point where you can have a "toy", then those fancy sportscar will come in play....
But what if you can't afford two cars? Or even one expensive car? Then you have to choose very carefully because you might end with something fast but uninvolving and numb. And it seems that as time goes by options are actually dwindling, not increasing.

On that note, a 2nd car to have for me if I can afford it that I can see being a hoot to own and fully exploit, maybe something like a S2000. In my situation if I have more dough to spend, a RS3 or 1M might be fun....or cheaper, the rally style car like STI or EVO, as I am still very much intrigued by them....
Nah all of those are far too complicated, complex, and have too many devices to remove the human element from the equation. Except the Honda and perhaps the BMWs. But without getting too much into the discussion, four wheel drive is bad place to start...

[RacingManiac]

See thats what I think your standard is too lofty and unrealistic. The driver is being shielded more from the actual connection, but that is not the choice of the OEs to do that, more they are forced to do that due to the governmental requirements. They have a gross trickling effect on everything on the car. The cars got heavier, it has more impact protection, that requires heavier duty brake, requires more brake boosting, requires more power assist in steering. New CAFE-style standard, requires durastic boost in fuel economy, leads to electrification of many accessories, leads to the disconnect of the electro-power steering. You CAN'T actually build that car from past anymore.

At the same token, much of the past "feel" may well be dynamically flawed but giving it "character". Old school turbo charged car for instance, without much of the modern boost controller of sophisticated electronic tuning, they may be laggy or peaky, but when they kick in you feel it. Is that a disconnect to human element, or is it just bad technology side effect? Or the old torque steer wonder that are being cured nowadays by new front end geometry design? Or old cars with sport suspension tuning that weaves and bobs down the road, but handles great in corner? A lot of these are gone because modern, passive shocks(not electronic) have found ways to achieve better performance in ride and handling(frequency depended damping). What about 911s....

I feel a lot of what you are asking is to stop progressing and just build cars from decades ago. And that I just cannot agree with as an engineer and as a car enthusiasts. You cannot ignore the stuff you learn and not improve on stuff that has flaws....that's just not progress....

I more than agree though that some of the cars now just have way more stuff than you need, the gaziilion TCS/ESP setting, or the super torque shuffling diff AWD cars. But I don't you a modern enthusiast is lacking choice in those regards. For every AYC Evo/STI out there you still have a 370Z, for the RS3 out there you still have Focus RS. For the M5s out there you still have a CTS-V, for the GTRs out there you still have the ZR1, and for the 458s out there you still have a GT3RS. If anything you have more choice to what kind of performance car that you want. Instead of being just limited by what is possible.

[Ferrer]

I just want to make it clear that I'm not against progress. I'm all for clever engineering solutions, and cars like the Toyota iQ, the Mitsubishi i or the Audi A2. I find direct fuel injection or full LED lights as good things, and things I want to have in my car. I even think that the Honda CR-Z could be a very good concept given some development. Even traction and stability control can be good done properly.

What I am against is about progress that detracts from the driving experience. I mean things like active steering, lane departure warning and all those sort of things. If you can't drive properly you shouldn't be driving in the first place, and I think it's better to pay full attention rather than rely on those systems. Those systems can give average people a false sense of security, and that's not a good thing.

And then there are those gadgets which are simply unnecessary. Things that have already been mentioned here like internet connectivity. I do not want to enter internet in my car. It's not a mobile work station, or a room in which to see my e-mails. It's car and it's meant to be driven. All, so-called, progress that does not contribute to the driving exprience is not really progress in my opinion.

In other cases though it's really a lost battle because of regulations. Like fuel economy standards which mandate electric everything, and as a result feel undeniably suffers. Altough, fuel economy has a desired side effect, which is trying to make everything lighter, and that's a good thing. This also has a side effect, which is bringing investigation in newer lighter and stronger (that's thanks to the safety regulations) materials, and this again is the sort of progress I'm all for and that I want to have in my car.

Thankfully, as I said, in Europe we still have pretty basic cars, which means that even if they don't feel exactly the same we can still experience some of that old magic. They also bring basic equipment, basic engine, basic everything, which means they aren't further weighted down with unnecessary equipment and that their tyres still have normal sizes and not the width and diameter of a 400bhp sportscar. You can even experience this in relatively recent, fast, powerful cars like the Mk 1 New Mini.

[henk4]

What I am against is about progress that detracts from the driving experience. I mean things like active steering, lane departure warning and all those sort of things. If you can't drive properly you shouldn't be driving in the first place, and I think it's better to pay full attention rather than rely on those systems. Those systems can give average people a false sense of security, and that's not a good thing.

The same was said when the safety belt was introduced, and driving with a belt is still considered in some cultures as definitely uncool, and a proof that you can't drive.
P.S : I have my lane departure warning system permanently switched off, as it starts to work when you do not use your indicator when switching lanes, which is rather irritating.

[RacingManiac]

Having driven my father's 2011 Infiniti M with all those gizmos, I am glad it comes with a button to switch them all off....

IMO they can have all the stuff they want just so that they can list them in a feature set(or better yet, make them optional, in this case the car was bought off a deal and came with all the stuff loaded for lots of $$ off sticker), as long as you can switch them off its fine with me...

[Ferrer]

Europeans are better than Americans because they choose the option in their cars wisely.

Why doesnt Europe care about infotainment? (http://www.autoblog.com/2011/09/08/why-doesnt-europe-care-about-infotainment/)

Discuss.

[NSXType-R]

Europeans are better than Americans because they choose the option in their cars wisely.

Why doesnt Europe care about infotainment? (http://www.autoblog.com/2011/09/08/why-doesnt-europe-care-about-infotainment/)

Discuss.

Ford just thinks it'll set themselves apart from the pack.

Their products are actually pretty decent, but I couldn't give a rat's ass about their SYNC garbage.

[RacingManiac]

Hows the usage of "Smartphone" in EU? Smartphones are so prevalent now in US its important for all these integration to every aspect of consumer's like, including cars.

And what constitute infotainment? Don't most VW now have some kind of multimedia enabled touchscreen system?(I don't but I am cheap and I buy the cheapest pacakge)...

[Ferrer]

I don't know about the actual figures but I know both people with and without (including myself) smartphones. I'm not sure it is 50/50, but it could be easily 65/35.

Also there's the small problem of American systems not actually coping with European speeds...

Ford SYNC modified for autobahn speeds (http://www.autoblog.com/2011/08/31/ford-sync-modified-for-autobahn-speeds/)

[f6fhellcat13]

The 991's Ring time made me think of something; are cars currently getting quicker at a faster rate then they ever have?
It seems every minorly performance-oriented car is chopping seconds off of its zero to sixty and slashing tens of seconds off its Ring times, if its manufacturer is into that sort of thing.
Surely tire technology is partly to blame, but I would guess that the majority of this new speed is coming from the further integration of electronics into all of a car's driving systems. Will objective performance plateau once again when this integration is total and complete?

[kingofthering]

Speaking of which, it's interesting how the Nissan GT-R vs. Porsche 911 vs. Corvette ZR1 battle waged in 2008-9 set off this fervor over mid 7's yet a mid 7' two-three years later is basically "average" for a performance road car. Now you have the Lexus LF-A setting a 7:14 and a Dodge Viper SRT-10 ACR setting a 7:12.

[Ferrer]

Well, I'm not entirely sure electronics have improved the performance. I mean would an experienced racing driver be faster with the electronics on or off, in a road car? What they have definitely made, though, is performance more accessible for useless driver. Stepping into a Ferrari 458 and going very fast without getting killed or destroying the car is very easy, even if you are plastic surgeon in California, thanks to the flappy paddle gearbox, the multiple-way traction control, ABS, stability management programme control, electronic diff and so on. Try doing the same in a Lamborghini Countach LP400S and the outcome wouldn't probably be the same...

As a personal opinion making performance so accessible, even in seriously focused sportscars is wrong. High performance driving is something that should be achieved after a period learning, followed by hard work to understand what makes your car go fast and what actually slows you down. It should be an achievement in a way, something that requires an effort, not something you replicate from what you do as if you drove in the Play Station.

[henk4]

High performance driving is something that should be achieved after a period learning, followed by hard work to understand what makes your car go fast and what actually slows you down. It should be an achievement in a way, something that requires an effort, not something you replicate from what you do as if you drove in the Play Station.

and subsequently should only be executed in the confined areas of a racetrack.

And for your information, the Spaniar Luis Ordonnez, who won the play station contest some years ago, and was rewarded with a seat for this years 24 hours of LM race, is now the fastest driver of the team he is driving for. So yes, it is possible to get to grips with speed behind a console.

[Ferrer]

I know about Lucas.

I also think that performance driving can be executed safely even in open roads, and that the same principles of understanding and feeling the car still apply.

[henk4]

I know about Lucas.

I also think that performance driving can be executed safely even in open roads, and that the same principles of understanding and feeling the car still apply.

probably your roads are more open than ours...

[Ferrer]

Well, it's funny you should mention that. Today I went about 80km north of Barcelona and once off the motorway you had to take a country road which allowed a relatively high average speed but that has corners you have to take care of. We were a group of four cars, a Toyota Avensis estate, a C4 Grand Picasso, a Fiesta diesel and me in the i30. You were maintaining a good rythm, rarely going below 100km/h.

I never had to break, while on the other cars brake lights came on randomly. They also drove rather fast on the straights but didn't seem to be able to take corners fluidly (except possibly the chap in the Ford). I'd dowshift to get more engine-braking and therefore no need for brakes at all.

So see, you can still enjoy motoring while not going that fast.

[henk4]

Well, it's funny you should mention that. Today I went about 80km north of Barcelona and once off the motorway you had to take a country road which allowed a relatively high average speed but that has corners you have to take care of. We were a group of four cars, a Toyota Avensis estate, a C4 Grand Picasso, a Fiesta diesel and me in the i30. You were maintaining a good rythm, rarely going below 100km/h.

I never had to break, while on the other cars brake lights came on randomly. They also drove rather fast on the straights but didn't seem to be able to take corners fluidly (except possibly the chap in the Ford). I'd dowshift to get more engine-braking and therefore no need for brakes at all.

So see, you can still enjoy motoring while not going that fast.

Of course, but I thought we were talking about high performance driving, and that is hardly what can achieve in an i30....and, em, not any villages along the roadside?

[Ferrer]

Nope, no villages along the way, altough you do eventually arrive at one. It isn't a very long road, 10km I'd say.

I also disagree that performance driving depends on what you are driving. It depends on the way you drive, in my opinion.

[Magnum9987]

I also disagree that performance driving depends on what you are driving. It depends on the way you drive, in my opinion.

Well, if you are in some econo box or fat FWD sedan or crossover, you really don't have much confidence behind the wheel. I know this feeling well. Try driving some horrid Buick Rendezvouz on some lovely twisty roads. It really scares the piss out of you. Of course, my driving experience is not as great as some of the more experienced drivers here, but I do have enough to feel steering, brakes, throttle, the slush box, and cars like that will not allow you to have fun behind the wheel.

[RacingManiac]

Well, I'm not entirely sure electronics have improved the performance. I mean would an experienced racing driver be faster with the electronics on or off, in a road car? What they have definitely made, though, is performance more accessible for useless driver. Stepping into a Ferrari 458 and going very fast without getting killed or destroying the car is very easy, even if you are plastic surgeon in California, thanks to the flappy paddle gearbox, the multiple-way traction control, ABS, stability management programme control, electronic diff and so on. Try doing the same in a Lamborghini Countach LP400S and the outcome wouldn't probably be the same...


I don't know about that, Driver's Aids is one thing, chassis dynamic control is something else. And the line between the 2 is blurry at best. Much like the whole argument with 458 being more "alive" vs the McLaren. The E-diff and magnetic ride control still works in maximizing the performance envelope of the car even if the driver is powersliding to his heart's content. The car is still flattering the driver. And there is no question its making him faster, whether he is a F1 superstar or Joe Blow Dentist. Can Nigel Mansell drive faster than his Williams did without his active suspension equipped, ABS assisted, automatic gearbox shifting and traction control optimized car? I very much doubt that....

Subjective performance-wise it may be a different story. You might feel more involved in a dumb car where you are doing everything to make it go fast at the limit, than a smarter car with its performance envelope so high that at legal speed its just not thrilling....

[henk4]

Nope, no villages along the way, altough you do eventually arrive at one. It isn't a very long road, 10km I'd say.

I also disagree that performance driving depends on what you are driving. It depends on the way you drive, in my opinion.

my performance driving in a 2CV was legendary...

[Ferrer]

Moarer is betterer.

Next-gen Viper may get 8.7-liter V10 (http://www.autoblog.com/2011/10/27/next-gen-viper-may-get-8-7-liter-v10/)

Who cares about emissions...

[f6fhellcat13]

Jesus, Mary, and Joseph! Five-hundred thirty one cubes of engine!
I am no big fan of the Viper, but reading that made me chuckle, which I suppose is kind of the point of a car like this. It is also nice to see that among the ranks of the legally insane, there are those who are still loath to force their induction.

[RacingManiac]

Getting close to the kind of number that the pre-war car gets...

[Ferrer]

Jesus, Mary, and Joseph! Five-hundred thirty one cubes of engine!
I am no big fan of the Viper, but reading that made me chuckle, which I suppose is kind of the point of a car like this. It is also nice to see that among the ranks of the legally insane, there are those who are still loath to force their induction.
Bah, forced induction is for the weak.

[racingguy]

love the viper

[NSXType-R]

Just a bump on this thread.

Saab is dying and will be dead soon enough- luckily the museum is staying put.

What are your thoughts on the next company to die?

My opinion would be Mitsubishi. Other than the Evolution and perhaps the electric car that I don't care for, their products are garbage.

The Galant and Eclipse barely represent what awesome products they stood for.

The Lancer is an okay econobox, but there are better options.

Mitsubishi Heavy Industries would still be around making trucks and all, but their car company's products are very weak.

Comparing Mitsubishi to Subaru, it's a very big contrast. Subaru products are desirable and at least sell- the BR-Z is going to be very hot, the STI and the Legacy are both good cars. The Tribeca, maybe not, but some people like it.

Both make heavy machinery, but as a lineup the Subaru lineup is definitely stronger.



On a side note, I am still concerned about Honda as a company. They seem to have lost their bearings as to their products. The Korean automakers are very strong now, and rightly so. The earthquake and tsunami did not help at all.

The new Accord better be a stronger product or else they'll be in big trouble. The new Civic is lackluster. On a high note, the new Accord may mean that the Crosstour will not be renewed. I also hope the ZDX is axed.

One thing to look forward to is the ILX. Not sure what's wrong with the TSX name, but at least it looks attractive. I still hope it's priced accordingly, or else it won't sell either.

The NSX may end up like the original NSX- doomed to fail, especially if it's too expensive and too technologically laden. Even if it's made to be built in small numbers, a high price is not the way to go, especially when it'll probably be around the price of a GT-R.


Another point to touch upon is GM. The Volt isn't selling well. No surprises there right?

[Matra et Alpine]

2011 sales in UK ....

Chrysler 1182
Lexus 8269
Mitsubishi 9843
Subaru 2634

So here. Mitsu doing a LOT better than Subaru !!

EDIT: fFor comparison Honda was 50577

[pimento]

AU sales 2011

Rank Brand 2011 2010 % diff
1. Toyota 181,624 214,718 -15.4
2. Holden 126,095 132,923 -5.1
3. Ford 91,243 95,284 -4.2
4. Mazda 88,333 84,777 4.2
5. Hyundai 87,008 80,038 8.7
6. Nissan 67,926 62,676 8.4
7. Mitsubishi 61,108 62,496 -2.2
8. Volkswagen 44,740 38,016 17.7
9. Subaru 34,011 40,025 -15.0
10. Honda 30,107 40,375 -25.4


Rank Vehicle 2011 2010 % diff
1. Mazda3 41,429 39,003 6.2
2. Holden Commodore 40,617 45,956 -11.6
3. Toyota HiLux 36,124 39,896 -9.5
4. Toyota Corolla 36,087 41,632 -13.3
5. Holden Cruze 33,784 28,334 19.2
6. Hyundai i30 28,869 29,772 -3.0
7. Nissan Navara 21,675 21,171 2.4
8. Toyota Camry 19,169 25,014 -23.4
9. Ford Falcon 18,741 29,516 -36.5
10. Mitsubishi Lancer 18,717 23,076 -18.9

Source (http://www.fcai.com.au/news/all/all/292/new-vehicle-sales-top-the-million-mark-in-2011).

[NSXType-R]

Hmm... Mitsubishi is selling better than I assumed.

Thanks for the figures.

[jcp123]

Honda will come back, especially if they can push through to the next generation of Civic and Accord. Also, they need to improve both the programming and batteries of their IMA hybrid system. Toyota is on a tear and there's no reason Honda's IMA can't do better and give a good share of the hybrid market.

I'll mourn Saab for a while; they have some interesting cars and I think there's some faint hope for them. I definitely agree Mitsubishi is on its way down; we rent Galants and Endeavours and both are trashy cars not worth anywhere near the MSRP. I have some doubts about Volvo too.

[Clivey]

I don't know about that, Driver's Aids is one thing, chassis dynamic control is something else. And the line between the 2 is blurry at best. Much like the whole argument with 458 being more "alive" vs the McLaren. The E-diff and magnetic ride control still works in maximizing the performance envelope of the car even if the driver is powersliding to his heart's content. The car is still flattering the driver. And there is no question its making him faster, whether he is a F1 superstar or Joe Blow Dentist. Can Nigel Mansell drive faster than his Williams did without his active suspension equipped, ABS assisted, automatic gearbox shifting and traction control optimized car? I very much doubt that....

Subjective performance-wise it may be a different story. You might feel more involved in a dumb car where you are doing everything to make it go fast at the limit, than a smarter car with its performance envelope so high that at legal speed its just not thrilling....

Precisely. There's something uniquely special about "flying manual" - taming a brute of a car and driving it with real vigour. You take the perfect line through a corner and there's an unmatched level of satisfaction in saying "I did that.", not Skynet.

That's why, for me, the TVR Tuscan is the ultimate road car. Nothing else from the last 10 years comes close.

[NSXType-R]

Is anyone annoyed at the styling decisions that Ferrari is making?

Stylistically the last "modern" Ferrari I actually like is the F430.

I don't like the 599 GTB or the 458 Italia or the California.

[092326001]

Ferraris have been rather ugly for a while now.
I'd name the 456GT as the last good looking Ferrari.

I'm rather annoyed by the fact that many of the facelifts for cars these days make the cars look more modern but less aesthetically pleasing.

[pimento]

I like the 458 more than the 430 or 360, but I like the 355 more. The big cheesy grinning front ends of the 599 and FF turn me off, but they're not so bad. The 550 I really didn't like, especially coming off the 512TR (the less said about the 512M the better..).

[henk4]

Precisely. There's something uniquely special about "flying manual" - taming a brute of a car and driving it with real vigour. You take the perfect line through a corner and there's an unmatched level of satisfaction in saying "I did that.", not Skynet.

That's why, for me, the TVR Tuscan is the ultimate road car. Nothing else from the last 10 years comes close.

In modern traffic the TVR is (may be) the ultimate track car, where one can experiment with what you can do with such a car. I'd prefer to have cars on public roads fitted with all sorts of safety gadgets so that the average drivers that use them may not be tempted to reach the level of satisfaction that you are referring to:)

[Clivey]

In modern traffic the TVR is (may be) the ultimate track car, where one can experiment with what you can do with such a car. I'd prefer to have cars on public roads fitted with all sorts of safety gadgets so that the average drivers that use them may not be tempted to reach the level of satisfaction that you are referring to:)

Pieter, I'm only passing comment from an enthusiast's standpoint. - The Tuscan certainly isn't practical transport for the average motorist (hence me having the BMW and the C4 rather than a Chimaera for the same money :D ). When I get one, it'll be a second (or third) car. However, even driving one at normal speeds feels like an event.

As regards to safety equipment: I would prefer that average motorists were better educated and trained than they currently are - watching some people's driving is truly frightening for me and I'm appalled that many of them have licences. If someone needs to rely on ESP and other electronics, I want to be as far away from that person as possible. I've never had to rely on the system, though in the C4 the traction control helps you up snow covered slopes to a certain degree, which I was impressed with as usually the first thing you should do in snow is deactivate the system.

[NSXType-R]

Ferraris have been rather ugly for a while now.
I'd name the 456GT as the last good looking Ferrari.

I'm rather annoyed by the fact that many of the facelifts for cars these days make the cars look more modern but less aesthetically pleasing.

Agreed- it looks very modern, but not in a good way at all. Amongst its competitors, I feel that the styling of the Ferrari will age the quickest.


I like the 458 more than the 430 or 360, but I like the 355 more. The big cheesy grinning front ends of the 599 and FF turn me off, but they're not so bad. The 550 I really didn't like, especially coming off the 512TR (the less said about the 512M the better..).

The 550 Maranello I like very much- much better than the 599 GTB.

The 360 I like too.

The grill I know is based on old Ferraris, but it had yet to turn into the cheesy grin, which sort of began on the 612 Scaglietti, but it had yet to grow into a tumor at that point. :D

[Clivey]

If gasoline prices are brought up, not only do the Feds get a much-needed pile of shekels, but customers are incentivized to pick cars that in the real world will return reasonable mileage figures. This will create demand for genuinely frugal vehicles, not just ones that look like they are on the EPA’s dynos. There are definitely times when the market cannot be trusted to regulate itself, but I feel that higher gas prices would be a much less artificial push in the right direction than CAFE’s standards. I am not sure how Europe is handling it, but governments tend to be the same brand of stupid the world over.



Troubling for me are the new CAFE standards. As much as I hate gas tax (and as much as my interest in saving the environment has faded in recent times), the current approach seems utterly moronic, and a totally political play. Raising the gas tax in the US as a politician would be suicidal, so one must instead obfuscate the price the consumer will ultimately pay by putting the onus on the manufacturer, not the consumer. I mentioned this to hellcat last night, and he and I agreed that it was not the right path to take (as he has written). The very high MPG standards could easily grind new sales to a halt, and give an advantage to automakers that place less an importance on the NADM (ie, all but the big three).

Ultimately though, the big monkey in the closet is gas prices. Gas pre-recession here was very expensive, and for other places, near unbearable. Will we start seeing cars become tame in the next 5-15 years? Will anodyne greenness via expensive gas keep anyone from driving tire shredding beasts? As someone that likes fast cars, this worries me, probably even more than model bloat. I know the performance car will survive, but I could see it be placed in an even less important supporting role that it already is.

Endorsing making fuel expensive through tax is completely insane. You only have to live in this country to realise that (over 70% of the cost of fuel is tax - they even put sales tax (VAT) ON TOP of the standard fuel tax :mad:).

A raise in fuel tax has a knock-on effect on the price of everything as transport and haulage costs rise. - Prices here have gone absolutely mental in the last few years. We're seeing £1.50/litre ($2.38 USD) prices for fuel and it hurts. It SHOULDN'T and DOESN'T HAVE TO be this way...but politicians being what they are we're bent over for everything. Even the weekly food shopping is now costing us £10-£15 more than when we bought our house 18 months ago. 2+ litre petrol cars are now considered a luxury over here and if you Americans / Australians / Canadians had to drive some of the crap that's littering our roads, you'd be shaking with fear.

http://www.havanacarhire.com/images/photos/hyundai-i10.jpg

*Pukes*

We need to make government smaller and tell them to keep their greedy, interfering noses out of our lives and let us live. All the "green" this and "eco" that is just a ploy to tax us more and during a recession it's completely inappropriate.

If the authorities really gave a shit about climate change, being overzealously obsessive over exhaust emissions and taxes would be a pretty low priority. More of a concern is mankind's overpopulation of the planet, but that's another discussion.

[Commodore GS/E]

Hello, my fine gentlemen :) I haven't been posting in here for a while because of real life issues, but whatever...

I'm not entirely sure about the current state of the car. One development that I really like is that car makers are beginning to mix up their styling again (it isn't like one face for 50 brands anymore, or at least it has become better). BMW is a great example, they have really improved their cars in the looks department. The new 3-series is a great looking car, let's hope they stay on track with their next products.
Also, it seems like FINALLY car makers have realized that weight is actually pretty bad for a car (mainly driven by the ecology concerns, but still). Many new cars are getting lighter, a few even smaller (new Pug 208) which is cool to see after many years of overall fatness.
Best news for me is the incredible growth of the youngtimer/oldtimer scene in our region. There are so many classic cars here it's just mindblowing. I've also began to appreciate many other car scenes (I've become a huge fan of decently modded executive saloons for some reasons).
The state of Opel (I mean wtf is happening with those guys? Last time I checked they seemed to do fine, but after my break from motoring news I was just flooded with bad news --> if anybody can elaborate what exactly happened, I'd be very thankful) is one of the only things that make me kinda sad, but overall, I like big parts of the development. Funnily enough, design seems to head into the direction that I imagined it would a few years ago.

PS:WTF FERRARI!? What the hell have they done to their design team T-T

[NSXType-R]

Pah! Weight concerns?

You go tell that to Ford, with their 4,800 lb Explorer "SUV" that can barely tow its own weight.

Saab is more dead than Opel, but that being said Opel may not be far behind.

[Kitdy]

Good to see you back commodore!

[Clivey]

Pah! Weight concerns?

You go tell that to Ford, with their 4,800 lb Explorer "SUV" that can barely tow its own weight.

Saab is more dead than Opel, but that being said Opel may not be far behind.

Opel / Vauxhall are only failing due to the "unique" way GM calculates it's finances...

[henk4]

to summarize where automotive things have gone wrong, I made this shot of an A110 and some Mercedes Coupe visibly suffering from elephantiasis..... probably the Alpine will outrun the Mercedes on any secondary road.

These are to scale - Ultimatecarpage.com - Images, Specifications and Information (http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/gallery/28647/These-are-to-scale.html)

[Clivey]

to summarize where automotive things have gone wrong, I made this shot of an A110 and some Mercedes Coupe visibly suffering from elephantiasis..... probably the Alpine will outrun the Mercedes on any secondary road.

These are to scale - Ultimatecarpage.com - Images, Specifications and Information (http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/gallery/28647/These-are-to-scale.html)

Generally, I wholeheartedly agree with your point...however although your examples are indeed both coupés, they're not the same "kind" of car and not really that comparable. Comparing the A110 to a 991 would sure be interesting though (especially as according to the motoring press, the 991 has become too fat, to sedate and has lost it's magic)!

[RacingManiac]

Generally, I wholeheartedly agree with your point...however although your examples are indeed both coupés, they're not the same "kind" of car and not really that comparable. Comparing the A110 to a 991 would sure be interesting though (especially as according to the motoring press, the 991 has become too fat, to sedate and has lost it's magic)!

But I doubt it'll have trouble running down the Alpine on any road...

[NSXType-R]

to summarize where automotive things have gone wrong, I made this shot of an A110 and some Mercedes Coupe visibly suffering from elephantiasis..... probably the Alpine will outrun the Mercedes on any secondary road.

These are to scale - Ultimatecarpage.com - Images, Specifications and Information (http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/gallery/28647/These-are-to-scale.html)

Well even normal cars too. A new USDM Civic is about the same size if not larger as a 2nd generation Accord.

[Clivey]

But I doubt it'll have trouble running down the Alpine on any road...

...unless it has really tight width restrictors. ;)

[NSXType-R]

Does anyone remember this car?

2004 Toyota Volta - Images, Specifications and Information (http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/car/1958/Toyota-Volta.html)

I still think it's pretty awesome looking.

And I'd be pretty happy if Toyota came up with a production car variant of it, sort of as the LF-A for the Toyota brand and sell it for around 100 grand, maybe make it a 2 seater just to be practical.

And what a nice set of BBS wheels on it too.

[pimento]

I was just reading an old report (http://www.autozine.org/Archive/Renault/old/Avantime.html) about the Renault Avantime, praising how amazing and new it was. The last sentence of the report is "It shows us how the future may be."

Shame it was such a colossal failure. I always rather liked it, at least in theory. I've never driven, sat in or seen one.. but I'd like to.

[csl177]

We were driven around France in an Avantime when they were new... it was like a space ship. Very cool ride. A pillarless minivan was just too different to be successful. Renault brought the similar Vel Satis to market at roughly the same time which didn't help either... with Matra struggling, Renault chose to stop building the Avantime.

[NSXType-R]

I was just reading an old report (http://www.autozine.org/Archive/Renault/old/Avantime.html) about the Renault Avantime, praising how amazing and new it was. The last sentence of the report is "It shows us how the future may be."

Shame it was such a colossal failure. I always rather liked it, at least in theory. I've never driven, sat in or seen one.. but I'd like to.


We were driven around France in an Avantime when they were new... it was like a space ship. Very cool ride. A pillarless minivan was just too different to be successful. Renault brought the similar Vel Satis to market at roughly the same time which didn't help either... with Matra struggling, Renault chose to stop building the Avantime.

Hmm, maybe I'm in the minority but I really don't see the appeal of an Avantime. A minivan-sized vehicle that seats 4? sure there's the cool panoramic roof, the stepped seating arrangement, the cool engineering in the doors, and perhaps the nicely designed cargo space.

Can anyone compare the size of the car to an American sedan just so I can fathom how large it really is? And was it good on gas?

Seems like they tried to make it like a practical SUV, although on the other hand, your article reminds me of the Pontiac Aztek- a really ugly car on the outside, but apparently a very well laid out car on the inside. Also, for those who bought the car, they were really happy with the car. Unfortunately, the same could be said about the Accord Crosstour.

I'm still baffled at the design of the new Crosstour. What we need is a USDM sized Accord wagon not another CUV. Why can't Honda seize the opportunity and give us what we want? Make AWD an option, add a 6 speed manual across the range, and the option of a 4 cylinder or a 6 cylinder car. It's really not that hard, and it doesn't even need to look awesome- it just needs to work really well for it to sell like crazy. And if they're really trying to please the enthusiasts, sell a 4 door hatchback sporty version of the sedan. Remember a time when cars came in multiple variants?

[pimento]

Avantime: Size (L / W / H / WB) mm 4642 / 1830 / 1630 / 2702

New Chevy Malibu: Size (L / W / H / WB) mm 4860 / 1855 / 1465 / 2737

So about the same, but taller.

[Ferrer]

Found out this site in the internets.

It contains insteresting information on the development of cars as well as trends (like the americans and the japanese taking on the germans).

Ate Up With Motor (http://ateupwithmotor.com/)

[NSXType-R]

Something on the topic of what we were discussing-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8h_IcLn4JSg&feature=g-all-u

[Ferrer]

Interestin video. Thanks for sharing.

I think they are right in many aspects. I'm personally not against technology per se, especially if it can improve safety, performance or economy, but I'm most definitely against technology that takes away the enjoyment of driving a car.

The problem is that car enthusiasts are small minority of the car buying public (and in fact not all of them are actually in the car buying market at all), but even worse than that is that many of those enthusiasts think that an Audi S/RS model complete with dual clutch gearbox and everything is good performance car.

So we are in the minority of the minority and that makes it very difficult. I'm afraid it's becoming a lost battle.

On an unrelated note, it seems like there are those who think that US car manufacturers should pull the plug completely on their European operations, what's the general opinion here?

Should GM and Ford give up on selling cars in Europe? (http://www.autoblog.com/2012/06/29/should-gm-and-ford-give-up-on-selling-cars-in-europe/)

[f6fhellcat13]

I think it would be exceedingly myopic for Ford to leave Europe entirely. They aren't losing that much money, and I think with the closing of a few plants they could probably be made profitable again, or at least resume breaking even.
Opel/Vauxhall seems to be in a weaker position and some fairly draconian belt tightening by the General seems to be the only way for them to continue European production. I don't know much about GM Yurp because they don't make any cars that interest me. So I can't justify my opinions regarding Opel very well then, but from all I've read they need to do something pretty drastic.
The domestic manufacturers also need to axe a few plants because they are producing at one billion percent over demand.

It will be interesting to see this situation unfold and I hope as few people are hurt and as few marques are lost as possible in the process.

[Ferrer]

I think that it's actually interesting to see the figures to put a bit of perspective into it. The Autoblog article says that Ford is the second best-selling car maker in Europe but, at least this year, it isn't. See page four of the attached PDF.

If we consider standalone brands then Ford is indeed the second best selling manufacturer, but I think this is short sighted and that groups should be considered as a whole. On that basis, even GME outsells Ford and Ford itself is placed fifth overall behind VW Group, PSA, Renault and GME. So perhaps if we only looked at sales figures they aren't that strong of a position, altough it isn't bad at all. Of the european heavyweights, only Fiat is behind in terms of sales figures.

Furthermore if they were to really exit the market their reputations would be probably heavily damaged making a future reentry very difficult and expensive for their respective parent companies. Let's not forget that despite the crisis and everything, Europe as a whole is still a pretty large market (3rd biggest in the world if I'm not mistaken).

However a very different story is unfolded if we look at the cars they make. Or, in other words, can GM and Ford really afford to lose all the engineering expertise derived from the R+D conducted in their European facilities? Both Buick and Chevrolet use Opel derived vehicles in both US and Chinese markets and Fords global Fiesta and Focus are basically European developped cars.

The good thing about the European market is that being one of the most demanding in the world it forces car makers to produce high quality cars which are sometimes easier to sell than cars from other parts of the world to Europe. However this can arguably also bring "desnaturalisation" of European GM and Ford products to Europe causing in reaction a less favourable opinion of the products in the original markets they were created for.

Another different question is the actual production process of these cars. Can this still be carried out in Europe? Possibly yes, but factories need to undergo adjustments to make the profitable again as they were sized for a market that no longer exists, and that maybe will never exist again in terms of volume. This aspect is probably the ones than needs the greatest changes and almost surely the ones that will be the most painful to Europeans.

[NSXType-R]

Interestin video. Thanks for sharing.

I think they are right in many aspects. I'm personally not against technology per se, especially if it can improve safety, performance or economy, but I'm most definitely against technology that takes away the enjoyment of driving a car.

The problem is that car enthusiasts are small minority of the car buying public (and in fact not all of them are actually in the car buying market at all), but even worse than that is that many of those enthusiasts think that an Audi S/RS model complete with dual clutch gearbox and everything is good performance car.

So we are in the minority of the minority and that makes it very difficult. I'm afraid it's becoming a lost battle.

On an unrelated note, it seems like there are those who think that US car manufacturers should pull the plug completely on their European operations, what's the general opinion here?

Should GM and Ford give up on selling cars in Europe? (http://www.autoblog.com/2012/06/29/should-gm-and-ford-give-up-on-selling-cars-in-europe/)

I also agree with the points they have made. Forget about driving dynamics, I feel like cars haven't gotten better looking at all- look at Acura and BMW.

On a side note, I alarmingly see more drivers on the phone or texting. I feel like cars these days are too disconnected from the road. Drivers don't feel like they're a massive projectile anymore. They don't see driving as a privilege, they see it more as a right.

I'm not sure if it's because cars are boring, or driving exams are too easy, but it scares me that drivers are distracted and I feel like they don't respect the fact that they could cause a massive accident. It's a different mentality than drinking and driving I feel, and there's no easy way to address it.

Honestly, if more cars were manual transmission cars, there would be no chance for drivers to text and drive because they're more involved.

And on the idea of Ford pulling out of Europe, I think that's stupid. I haven't read the article, but that's like saying Ferrari should pull out of selling cars in the Americas and stay in Europe only.

Ford as a company is way more healthy than GM is. GM just has too much sprawl and unfortunately I feel like they could close Opel and Vauxhaul. It's a shame as both companies have great histories, but for the company to survive as a whole there's just too much overlap and not enough distinction. Either that or stop selling Chevy and Cadillacs in Europe.

Ford on the other hand isn't completely out of the woods- they have no idea how to make Lincoln a distinct brand from Ford even after closing Mercury and if they think badge engineering Fords into Lincolns is going to work they'll be in for a big surprise.

But then again, Ford was always the most healthy of the 3 American car companies, so I still hope they'll be around for some time being.

[crisis]

I also agree with the points they have made. Forget about driving dynamics, I feel like cars haven't gotten better looking at all- look at Acura and BMW.
I don’t think they look particularly bad but they are increasingly samey. If that is possible.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-1ikIqgevtSc/TfN0dgmLEmI/AAAAAAAAAZU/VbTblswf0Oo/s1600/2011-Mazda6-facelift-4%255B1%255D.jpg

http://images-2.drive.com.au/2011/12/08/2825150/2012-toyota-camry_600-600x400.jpg

http://www.themotorreport.com.au/content/image/2/0/2012_honda_accord_euro_european_market_04-4d742c9db66b5.jpg


On a side note, I alarmingly see more drivers on the phone or texting. I feel like cars these days are too disconnected from the road. Drivers don't feel like they're a massive projectile anymore. They don't see driving as a privilege, they see it more as a right. I'm not sure if it's because cars are boring, or driving exams are too easy, but it scares me that drivers are distracted and I feel like they don't respect the fact that they could cause a massive accident. It's a different mentality than drinking and driving I feel, and there's no easy way to address it.
I don’t see driving as a privilege either but I do see it as a serious responsibility. Too many “drivers” perform the task as though it was nothing more than writing a text message. It is the most dangerous thing most of us do each day and too many do not treat it as such. I don’t think it is the cars fault as much as the familiarity we get with it. Most of us do it every day and with familiarity comes contempt. Only since I have become older and been involved in near misses and seen others not so lucky and had my mortality presented to me have I also come to respect just how serious driving a car can be. We all need the wakeup call as early as we can get it.



And on the idea of Ford pulling out of Europe, I think that's stupid. I haven't read the article, but that's like saying Ferrari should pull out of selling cars in the Americas and stay in Europe only.

Ford as a company is way more healthy than GM is. GM just has too much sprawl and unfortunately I feel like they could close Opel and Vauxhaul. It's a shame as both companies have great histories, but for the company to survive as a whole there's just too much overlap and not enough distinction. Either that or stop selling Chevy and Cadillacs in Europe.

Ford on the other hand isn't completely out of the woods- they have no idea how to make Lincoln a distinct brand from Ford even after closing Mercury and if they think badge engineering Fords into Lincolns is going to work they'll be in for a big surprise.

But then again, Ford was always the most healthy of the 3 American car companies, so I still hope they'll be around for some time being. 10 years and probably 90% of vehicle manufacturing will be done in China and probably India anyway.

[NSXType-R]

I don’t see driving as a privilege either but I do see it as a serious responsibility. Too many “drivers” perform the task as though it was nothing more than writing a text message. It is the most dangerous thing most of us do each day and too many do not treat it as such. I don’t think it is the cars fault as much as the familiarity we get with it. Most of us do it every day and with familiarity comes contempt. Only since I have become older and been involved in near misses and seen others not so lucky and had my mortality presented to me have I also come to respect just how serious driving a car can be. We all need the wakeup call as early as we can get it.

10 years and probably 90% of vehicle manufacturing will be done in China and probably India anyway.

It's odd that you don't see it as a privilege because the ultimate deciding factor on whether or not you have a license or not is the government. Obviously you need to be caught doing something wrong in order to get it revoked, but just because you seem to get away with it all the time (texting and talking while on the phone) doesn't make it any more legitimate.

You're probably right, manufacturing probably will move to India. China already has a growing middle class and they're already demanding higher wages. I'm curious about one thing however- what happens when there's an established middle class around the world? Does the economy implode? :D

In the future cars will probably be made in Vietnam or the Philippines.

[crisis]

It's odd that you don't see it as a privilege because the ultimate deciding factor on whether or not you have a license or not is the government.
I have a philosophical problem with someone else being given the right to decide what a right is for me and what a privilege is. I can’t think of anything else we do that regardless of what laws apply that is considered a privilege. We live in what are supposed to be free societies. We are governed by laws but in no case that I can think of is anything we do considered a privilege other than driving.
We buy the car as we would buy a TV. It is not considered a privilege to own a TV. We pay for the roads indirectly through all manner of taxes. We pay for registration and a license. It is not considered a privilege to be able to ride a bike on the roads even though they use the roads motorists pay for.
Basically I believe we a cajoled into accepting driving as a privilege so governments can issue and revoke licenses as they see fit, make the laws as they see fit and administer the regulations and conditions in which we drive with utter impunity. And they don’t do it very well but as long as it is a privilege to drive they don’t have to,



You're probably right, manufacturing probably will move to India. China already has a growing middle class and they're already demanding higher wages. I'm curious about one thing however- what happens when there's an established middle class around the world? Does the economy implode? :D

In the future cars will probably be made in Vietnam or the Philippines.
Ha ha. Maybe China will get bypassed altogether. Maybe there will be a point where the middle class of the third world is as well of as the rest. That would be cool. Then we might see manufacturing back in this country again!

[Ferrer]

I also agree with the points they have made. Forget about driving dynamics, I feel like cars haven't gotten better looking at all- look at Acura and BMW.
I think the lately BMW have been on an improving path. Not quite as good looking as they used to be, but better than the Bangle cars. I even like the 3er, it lloks like it has some of the presence of the 80's BMWs and the 6er Grand Coupe, while not as good looking as it could've been, exudes charisma and presence.

And on the idea of Ford pulling out of Europe, I think that's stupid. I haven't read the article, but that's like saying Ferrari should pull out of selling cars in the Americas and stay in Europe only.
There's a crucial difference though, Ford (and GM) are losing money in Europe, while Ferrari isn't losing money in the US (or anywhere else, for that matter).

You're probably right, manufacturing probably will move to India. China already has a growing middle class and they're already demanding higher wages. I'm curious about one thing however- what happens when there's an established middle class around the world? Does the economy implode? :D

In the future cars will probably be made in Vietnam or the Philippines.


Ha ha. Maybe China will get bypassed altogether. Maybe there will be a point where the middle class of the third world is as well of as the rest. That would be cool. Then we might see manufacturing back in this country again!
One of the important points to decide where to put a car factory is a strong internal demand. So if a certain country buys cars they will increase their chances of getting a car factory.

[NSXType-R]

I have a philosophical problem with someone else being given the right to decide what a right is for me and what a privilege is. I can’t think of anything else we do that regardless of what laws apply that is considered a privilege. We live in what are supposed to be free societies. We are governed by laws but in no case that I can think of is anything we do considered a privilege other than driving.
We buy the car as we would buy a TV. It is not considered a privilege to own a TV. We pay for the roads indirectly through all manner of taxes. We pay for registration and a license. It is not considered a privilege to be able to ride a bike on the roads even though they use the roads motorists pay for.
Basically I believe we a cajoled into accepting driving as a privilege so governments can issue and revoke licenses as they see fit, make the laws as they see fit and administer the regulations and conditions in which we drive with utter impunity. And they don’t do it very well but as long as it is a privilege to drive they don’t have to,

Ha ha. Maybe China will get bypassed altogether. Maybe there will be a point where the middle class of the third world is as well of as the rest. That would be cool. Then we might see manufacturing back in this country again!

There's a big difference between a TV and a car and a bike (I'm assuming bicycle). You can't seriously hurt anyone with a bicycle or a TV, unless you drop a plugged in TV into a bathtub while someone's in it. A car is different and there are certain rules and regulations and procedures that you need to follow and learn in order to operate it safely. That's why you don't need to apply for a license to operate a TV. I'm not exactly sure why, but CB radio is also controlled by licenses as well, probably because it's specialised machinery.

Indirectly, the roads a bike uses is already paid for through the taxes on your property you live on and other things, like income taxes. That's why there's no additional fee for registration. Also, the taxes pay for repair maintenance of the roads around your country. Admittedly the repairs can be of poor quality, but I'm sure it's not feasible for you to repair all the roads by yourself.

The growing middle class has caused quite a large demand on oil. I'm not saying that they don't deserve oil, as we certainly have used more than our fair share, but it has caused strains in production and pricing for sure. Here's hoping that they find a good replacement. Algae seems to be the next good biofuel.


I think the lately BMW have been on an improving path. Not quite as good looking as they used to be, but better than the Bangle cars. I even like the 3er, it lloks like it has some of the presence of the 80's BMWs and the 6er Grand Coupe, while not as good looking as it could've been, exudes charisma and presence.

There's a crucial difference though, Ford (and GM) are losing money in Europe, while Ferrari isn't losing money in the US (or anywhere else, for that matter).



One of the important points to decide where to put a car factory is a strong internal demand. So if a certain country buys cars they will increase their chances of getting a car factory.

Although Ford is losing money in Europe, it's probably not the first time they've lost money in Europe. I'm not aware of their sales trends, is this a particularly bad slide? Some of their best products are designed and sold in Europe, it would be a shame to lose that creative side that the American side seems to lack, even though it's an American company.

Just because they have a bad day doesn't mean they should pull out completely on a whim.

That's a good point, I think Honda was one of the first Japanese manufacturers to build a bespoke plant in America to get around importation laws.

[Ferrer]

Although Ford is losing money in Europe, it's probably not the first time they've lost money in Europe. I'm not aware of their sales trends, is this a particularly bad slide? Some of their best products are designed and sold in Europe, it would be a shame to lose that creative side that the American side seems to lack, even though it's an American company.

Just because they have a bad day doesn't mean they should pull out completely on a whim.
Indeed, and I would even say that despite the sales decrease and the lost money, Ford is still a very big player in Europe and Europe is an important market for them. GM is a different story, even though as we said they sell more as a group than Ford does in Europe. Let me explain.

Ford's strategy in Europe has also been very clear, all they sold and produce were "Fords", and has been this way through pretty much the world for all their mainstream cars at least. This has helped them market cars and make it more understanable for the general public. Furthermore except for some experiments (the early Mercury Capri and the Merkurs) EDM Fords have been sold in other parts of the world as Fords themselves right from the original Mondeo to the latest Focus (even more so after the demise of Mercury some years ago).

General Motors' strategy has always been much more confusing, starting from the division/class system in the US and continuing with the different brands with which they stablished themselves in overseas markets (by buying them, Opel in Germany/continental Europe, Vauxhall in the UK, Holden in Australia, Daewoo in Korea/Asia,...). This has made marketing much more difficult across different geographies because a car that was sold under certain brand in a particular are was sold as a different one in another area.

But if we speak about General Motors problems, and particularly about their European operations, there's another more important problem to be considered than the ones mentioned above. This problem is that ever since GM decided to introduce Chevrolet in Europe in a full on assault (more than importing a few SUVs, muscle cars and sports cars as they used to do in the olden days that is) Opel and Chevrolet have started going after what basically is the same customer. Arguably the idea is that Chevrolet should cater for the lower end of the market while Opel goes for the middle-class demography, but while this class system may work/have worked for them in the US, the differences are simply negligible in the European market. Quite possibly Opels are slitghly better products than EDM Chevrolets (altough it remains to be seen if the new Malibu will shrink this gap even more) but the fact of the matter is that at the end day the differences are too small to justify the price difference that there is between them (By the way, this is also a problem that could affect Hyundai/Kia in the long term, but that's another story).

So basically Chevrolet has come to compete basically on Opel's playground, and due to the brand/geography structure we discussed earlier Opel has little elsewhere to go to expand their sales volume. On that basis I can certainly see the concerns that Opel poses to GM corporate altough it could be argued that they actually shoot themselves in the foot in the first place.

[NSXType-R]

Ferrer, I agree- add in Saab, Monaro and Cadillac and you get a very big mess in Europe. Saab and Opel probably go for the same customer base. I remember Cadillac was introduced to Europe, but I don't remember if they are still "around". Even if Saab isn't a GM owned entity anymore, it doesn't mean they don't compete with GM products.

In Europe GM seems to have way too many brands available to buy. With the economic downturn, I don't think it's smart to keep so many brands around.

GMC is a stupid brand in America too- they used to be a distinct brand, but now they're just badge engineered Chevys.

GM started acquiring lots of brands very early on in its existance- Pontiac was one of their early acquisitions but I think owning a large number of marques is now a very large liability.

[Ferrer]

In Europe USDM GM cars are pretty much inexistent, despite their insistence on trying to sell them to us. Even Cadillac fares poorly despite the CTS being competent (if unsuited to Europe) and the preposterous attempt at a rebadged Saab called the BLS. Maybe the ATS will change things, but that is still to be seen.

As for Saab I think it plays(ed) in a different league. If the job had been done properly Saab could have become a proper premium brand, perhaps not in the German way, but certainly like Volvo, and Volvo sort of works. We already discussed it in the Saab thread, but I'd say that GM simply failed to grasp the potential Saab had.

[culver]

SAAB was probably going to fail any way you slice it. It was just a mater of time. The same is quite possibly true for Volvo. The volumes aren't high enough to be a really premium brand. Unlike the past, mainstream brands deliver much of what made Volvo's reputation. Volvo's big selling points in the US were they were entry level luxury at a time when the Japanese weren't and the domestics were falling flat. At the same time MB (Who is this Audi company?) was VERY expensive and BMW was great if you liked to drive, junk if you liked comforts such as air conditioning. Volvo also got a reputation for quality.

OK, so what about today. The luxury brands have closed the price gap between main stream (up to around $30-35k in the US). In the old days' the entry level Cadillac was a Buick. The entry level Euro-lux car was a SAAB, Peugeot or Volvo. Now the entry level Euro-lux is a C-class or A4 or 325 etc. There really isn't that in between market. The safety features of Volvo can be had on most cars. The reliability is now a given and Volvo is no longer a leader. Really, even unreliable cars can see 200k miles these days. The market for cars like SAAB was never that big. The same is true of Volvo. The difference is Volvo was in better shape but really I'm not sure if Volvo 10-15 years from now will be anything like it is today. It's either going to have to shrink away, grow a lot or become a rebadge brand (or conversely have many of it's cars rebadged by others).

[Ferrer]

SAAB was probably going to fail any way you slice it. It was just a mater of time. The same is quite possibly true for Volvo. The volumes aren't high enough to be a really premium brand. Unlike the past, mainstream brands deliver much of what made Volvo's reputation. Volvo's big selling points in the US were they were entry level luxury at a time when the Japanese weren't and the domestics were falling flat. At the same time MB (Who is this Audi company?) was VERY expensive and BMW was great if you liked to drive, junk if you liked comforts such as air conditioning. Volvo also got a reputation for quality.

OK, so what about today. The luxury brands have closed the price gap between main stream (up to around $30-35k in the US). In the old days' the entry level Cadillac was a Buick. The entry level Euro-lux car was a SAAB, Peugeot or Volvo. Now the entry level Euro-lux is a C-class or A4 or 325 etc. There really isn't that in between market. The safety features of Volvo can be had on most cars. The reliability is now a given and Volvo is no longer a leader. Really, even unreliable cars can see 200k miles these days. The market for cars like SAAB was never that big. The same is true of Volvo. The difference is Volvo was in better shape but really I'm not sure if Volvo 10-15 years from now will be anything like it is today. It's either going to have to shrink away, grow a lot or become a rebadge brand (or conversely have many of it's cars rebadged by others).
I'm sorry but I have to disagree.

First Peugeot has never been euro-lux as far as I'm aware, at most a good generalist manufacturer. Saab (and Volvo, and Rover, and Alfa Romeo, and Lancia, and the list could go on and on) played in a completely different league, maybe not fully with Daimler but certainly with BMW. The thing is that unlike all of the others the Germans found a way of capitalising on those quality attributes you mentioned, they converted them into something intangible: image.

Saab had this image (and the Top Gear tribute does give more than a hint to that) but somehow GM failed to capitalise it. These days premium cars hardly sell on their tangible attributes (even if they have them) they sell pretty much only because of thier image - Audi is a clear example of that.

Concerning Volvo, it's all up to their owners. If they can capitalise on this image they will be ok, but if they can't they will likely follow they same path Saab has followed. Not being owned by one of the traditional heavy-weights of the sector isn't necessarily a problem - look at JLR, they were in trouble under Ford ownership but now they seem to be stronger than ever.

[crisis]

One of the important points to decide where to put a car factory is a strong internal demand. So if a certain country buys cars they will increase their chances of getting a car factory. For sure but the other driver is low production costs. And in any cars the demand for cars domestically in China is growing at a high rate.


There's a big difference between a TV and a car and a bike (I'm assuming bicycle). You can't seriously hurt anyone with a bicycle or a TV, unless you drop a plugged in TV into a bathtub while someone's in it. A car is different and there are certain rules and regulations and procedures that you need to follow and learn in order to operate it safely. That's why you don't need to apply for a license to operate a TV. I'm not exactly sure why, but CB radio is also controlled by licenses as well, probably because it's specialised machinery. I understand all of this but a license to drive a car is unique in as much it is considered a privilege. Is a gun license considered so? In any case the fact that driving has the potential to injure people does not ipso facto follow that it should be a privilege. Who said?


Indirectly, the roads a bike uses is already paid for through the taxes on your property you live on and other things, like income taxes. That's why there's no additional fee for registration. Also, the taxes pay for repair maintenance of the roads around your country. Admittedly the repairs can be of poor quality, but I'm sure it's not feasible for you to repair all the roads by yourself. In that case drivers should not be slugged so relentlessly for the “privilege” as they similarly have already pain in the same way.

[culver]

I'm sorry but I have to disagree.

First Peugeot has never been euro-lux as far as I'm aware, at most a good generalist manufacturer. Saab (and Volvo, and Rover, and Alfa Romeo, and Lancia, and the list could go on and on) played in a completely different league, maybe not fully with Daimler but certainly with BMW. The thing is that unlike all of the others the Germans found a way of capitalising on those quality attributes you mentioned, they converted them into something intangible: image.

Saab had this image (and the Top Gear tribute does give more than a hint to that) but somehow GM failed to capitalise it. These days premium cars hardly sell on their tangible attributes (even if they have them) they sell pretty much only because of thier image - Audi is a clear example of that.

Concerning Volvo, it's all up to their owners. If they can capitalise on this image they will be ok, but if they can't they will likely follow they same path Saab has followed. Not being owned by one of the traditional heavy-weights of the sector isn't necessarily a problem - look at JLR, they were in trouble under Ford ownership but now they seem to be stronger than ever.

They weren't luxury in Europe but that is how they were pushed on US buyers. To be fair, the European cars we got typically were deluxe models and they would be about what people would consider entry level luxury in terms of equipment and features.
Avoidable Contact: Rich Corinthian Swaybars | The Truth About Cars (http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2012/02/avoidable-contact-rich-corinthian-swaybars/)

It used to shock Americans when we would see Mercedes sedans being used as Taxis and coming with features and trim levels that were no higher than a Malibu or Camry. Mind you the Mercedes importers only ever brought over the nicest versions. Still, the thought of using a luxury car for anything other than a Limousine was crazy! Of course that was yet another difference between the markets. I suspect Europe, lacking as many larger cars basically had to use things like E-class Mercedes when a larger sedan was needed because they didn't have a large VW. Of course the US had plenty of large cars.

Anyway, the fact is SAAB was a bit stuck. They either had to go main stream and get the numbers way up or they had to go way up in price. They couldn't remain semi-premium and semi-expensive. The economics of making cars just doesn't allow that anymore. To make maters worse, the only way to increase volume would be to go mainstream with a larger host company. Audi-VW could pull that off. They were both German so both had that "German car" cachet. They also had long since been sharing parts. SAAB didn't want to fully embrace GM (not without good cause) but they had also misstepped with other makes first. Kind of a bad deal all around. GM wasn't good enough to save SAAB and SAAB wasn't smart enough to save it's self given all the resources GM threw at it.

I'm going to take a wait and see on JLR. They might live. They have an upside in that the brands fit nicely together. They also were in decent shape when Ford left. Tata is likely to value the premium brands and perhaps is willing to handle some loss for a bit. Shedding them might be goof for Ford in the long term since they can finally really concentrate on fixing Lincoln (a very sad shadow of it's former self). Still, volume means a lot in this business.

Avoidable Contact: Lexus killed Saab, but GM let Saab die. | The Truth About Cars (http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2012/02/avoidable-contact-lexus-killed-saab-but-gm-let-saab-die/)

[NSXType-R]

I'm still not sure why Ford decided to sell Jaguar and Range Rover.

It's not like they were losing money or anything.

I have a feeling that the XF and XJ were both developed well before Ford sold them off, so it's not like they didn't have direction, but I could be wrong.

[culver]

I'm still not sure why Ford decided to sell Jaguar and Range Rover.

It's not like they were losing money or anything.

I have a feeling that the XF and XJ were both developed well before Ford sold them off, so it's not like they didn't have direction, but I could be wrong.

Ford was desperate for cash. They sold just about anything they could for cash and put the rest in hock. Had things go wrong, even without the financial crash Ford would have even lost the trademarked blue oval. In a sense Ford was lucky in that they were hard up for cash two years before GM. That meant Ford had sold everything and got their emergency cash lined up before 2008. GM MIGHT (and I say that because it was not at all certain) have weathered the storm had they done the same thing in 2006. In the short term in 2005 and before people realized just how bad 2008 would be, GM looked like they were on track for a slow but steady recovery. The financial crash that resulted in even Toyota claiming a loss was too much for GM given their huge legacy costs.

Anyway, Ford may or may not have seen a long term future with Jag but they certainly needed the money NOW so they sold at a loss despite all the work they put into the company. This is likely the reason they dumped Mazda as well. Otherwise that was a good partnership for Ford (and a life raft for Mazda).

[Ferrer]

They weren't luxury in Europe but that is how they were pushed on US buyers. To be fair, the European cars we got typically were deluxe models and they would be about what people would consider entry level luxury in terms of equipment and features.
Avoidable Contact: Rich Corinthian Swaybars | The Truth About Cars (http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2012/02/avoidable-contact-rich-corinthian-swaybars/)

It used to shock Americans when we would see Mercedes sedans being used as Taxis and coming with features and trim levels that were no higher than a Malibu or Camry. Mind you the Mercedes importers only ever brought over the nicest versions. Still, the thought of using a luxury car for anything other than a Limousine was crazy! Of course that was yet another difference between the markets. I suspect Europe, lacking as many larger cars basically had to use things like E-class Mercedes when a larger sedan was needed because they didn't have a large VW. Of course the US had plenty of large cars.

Anyway, the fact is SAAB was a bit stuck. They either had to go main stream and get the numbers way up or they had to go way up in price. They couldn't remain semi-premium and semi-expensive. The economics of making cars just doesn't allow that anymore. To make maters worse, the only way to increase volume would be to go mainstream with a larger host company. Audi-VW could pull that off. They were both German so both had that "German car" cachet. They also had long since been sharing parts. SAAB didn't want to fully embrace GM (not without good cause) but they had also misstepped with other makes first. Kind of a bad deal all around. GM wasn't good enough to save SAAB and SAAB wasn't smart enough to save it's self given all the resources GM threw at it.

I'm going to take a wait and see on JLR. They might live. They have an upside in that the brands fit nicely together. They also were in decent shape when Ford left. Tata is likely to value the premium brands and perhaps is willing to handle some loss for a bit. Shedding them might be goof for Ford in the long term since they can finally really concentrate on fixing Lincoln (a very sad shadow of it's former self). Still, volume means a lot in this business.

Avoidable Contact: Lexus killed Saab, but GM let Saab die. | The Truth About Cars (http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2012/02/avoidable-contact-lexus-killed-saab-but-gm-let-saab-die/)
Interesting articles.

But while I can generally agree with them, they are in parts biased and in others simply not true.

Except for some exceptions Saab was never cross-shopped with Peugeot or Renault or any other mainstream European car maker. As I said Saab was in the same market that BMW, Alfa Romeo, Lancia, Rover or even lower end Mercs were. Perhaps it wasn't as clear as the division structure of American car makers were but those aforementioned makers were above the generalist makes. Thier differentiation didn't come from power everything as American cars did but they were better in other aspects, like reliability, quality, safety handling or performance. That is in no doubt due to the different conditions different markets were facing. The article only mentions the privilege of owning a car in Europe, which is indeed one aspect, but there were also others, like geography constraints, fuel prices, road shapes, etc.

Also the article focuses on how Saabs became just mainstream products and failed to fight Lexuses. It is forever banging on, on how possibly a midly modified Vectra was going to compete with endless hordes of ever improving BMWs. And that's all very well, but they seem like they forget to mention the rise of Audi in the 80's and 90's. Cars that were (are?) little more than rebadged VWs with a questionable mechanical layout went from being a moderately well built, reliable car to the next best thing in the premium sports saloon and coupé pantheon. Audi's reputation was built primarily on marketing, and if Audi pulled it off, why couldn't Saab? It is only ironic that the A5 Sportback and A7 Sportback which would make for perfect Saabs now sell llike hot cakes under the Audi brand.

Surely Saab's sutbornness and reluctancy to accept any corporate mandates from GM musn't have helped, but in my opinion the fact that GM simply failed to understand Saab and capitalise on the image they had built is something that certainly doomed them. Perhaps they needed more volume, or to go further upmarket but cars like the 9-2X or the 9-7X lead me to believe the corporate management at GM didn't have a clue about either of the options.

I'm still not sure why Ford decided to sell Jaguar and Range Rover.

It's not like they were losing money or anything.

I have a feeling that the XF and XJ were both developed well before Ford sold them off, so it's not like they didn't have direction, but I could be wrong.
Jaguar was indeed losing money under the last years of Ford ownership and continued to do so for the first years of Tata ownership. It's only recently they have become profitable again.

[Ferrer]

This is likely the reason they dumped Mazda as well. Otherwise that was a good partnership for Ford (and a life raft for Mazda).
Well, at least this will give us the next-gen rear wheel drive Alfa Spider.

And that can only be a good thing. ;)

[culver]

In the US I'm sure SAAB was cross shopped with other Euro brands. It might not have been that way in Europe but it was in the US. I also think the article was probably right in that much of what made Euro cars popular here was that they weren't main stream. Owning one, even when often they weren't significantly more reliable than the junk the US was producing, mean you had something different and special at a time when the domestics were starting to embrace badge engineering. This article provides a nice primer...
Avoidable Contact: How Fake Luxury Conquered The World | The Truth About Cars (http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2012/02/avoidable-contact-how-fake-luxury-conquered-the-world/)

I agree GM failed to understand SAAB. I also suspect that SAAB failed to understand the reality that being perfect for 80,000-120,000 buyers a year wasn't going to cut it. What many, my self a SAAB owner included, liked about the company was how the product was unique. Unfortunately some of that comes from doing things that don't appeal to the masses. Anyway, SAAB was kind of trapped between being near luxury defined by quirks and real volume typically achieved by removing quirks. GM wasn't good enough to make it happen and SAAB wasn't good enough to make it happen given all the resources offered to them. Cars like the 9-2 and 9-7 are easy to point at as examples of GM's failure to understand but really, at that point GM had been working with SAAB for 15 years. Those cars were really evidence that SAAB was already in deep trouble rather than evidence that GM didn't understand. The dealers in the US were screaming for product and GM, thanks to many local dealer franchise laws that are incredibly one sided in favor of dealers, had little choice but to listen.

[Ferrer]

In the US I'm sure SAAB was cross shopped with other Euro brands. It might not have been that way in Europe but it was in the US. I also think the article was probably right in that much of what made Euro cars popular here was that they weren't main stream. Owning one, even when often they weren't significantly more reliable than the junk the US was producing, mean you had something different and special at a time when the domestics were starting to embrace badge engineering. This article provides a nice primer...
Avoidable Contact: How Fake Luxury Conquered The World | The Truth About Cars (http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2012/02/avoidable-contact-how-fake-luxury-conquered-the-world/)
Interesting, but I guess we were sort of saved from this because of two reasons:

-We didn't have a big corporation dominating the whole market, and the big industrial groups didn't have many divisions to really cover the entire market at the time (the monster that VAG is now was still very much 15 or 20 years in the future)

-Our differences were more than skin deep. This could also be due to national differences between car companies. I mean all of the divisions within GM (or Ford, or Chrysler) were Amercian and built cars for American people, which meant that more or less shared the same culture. In Europe though, one company was Italian, the other French, another one British, and then there were the Germans and the Swedes amongst others. Those had different cultures and living conditions which also dictated the way the cars were and meant that Volvo was very different from an Alfa Romeo which in turn was very different from a Triumph.

However, there's also something interesting in the article and which you mention as well, the democrtisation of luxury, which eventually can put an end to the products that lived from that luxury as a sort of selling point. I can agree with that, but now that premiumness (which can be considered the new word for "luxury") is selling better than ever it doesn't seem like this is putting and end to all those so-called Premium brands. Why is this popularisation not affecting them as it did the GM divisions in the seventies?

Those cars were really evidence that SAAB was already in deep trouble rather than evidence that GM didn't understand.
I guess the question is; Was failure a consequence of GM's misunderstanding of Saab or was it the other way round?

[culver]

I think the failure of SAAB was SAAB wanted to stay what it was in the late 70s and early 80s. That was understandable since that was their best time and much of what people love about SAAB was from that time. The problem is the market doesn't support that any more. The economies of scale needed to make a car don't let you make what SAAB wanted to be for the prices that people were willing to pay for SAABs. Perhaps if the 9-5 sold for BMW 535 money the numbers would work. When it had to sell for far less the numbers just didn't work.

Early on GM largely let SAAB do it's own thing (GM had their own issues to deal with). SAAB did but they didn't do what was needed for the future. By the time GM came in and really took control a decade had passed and SAAB was in worse shape. At that point GM wasn't talented enough to fix things (they might not have been even if they started early).

I'm not sure I understand your question about popularization vs luxury. As a side thought I do think that many things in mature markets like cars are purchased based on "premium" vs what might be considered luxury features. I have a friend who is looking to replace a 10 year old BMW 530. He's suggested a number of cars including a FWD luxury car. I suggested he take a look at the new Lincoln entry level sedan when it comes out. He said no because he doesn't consider it to be a quality car. The issue is his sense of premium. The BMW is a very nice car but realistically it's fit and finish isn't flawless and is likely no better than the new Lincoln. If he means reliability, a historically valid point, then again he is wrong as Ford's current reliability (Lincoln included) is very good while his BMW has actually been rather poor. If he said it was about the feel of the car and the driving experience I could understand but then the Lincoln is likely to be very comparable to one of the cars he was considering. If he said he didn't like the styling that is again OK. Instead he didn't like the idea of driving a Lincoln. It was entirely the thought that counted.

I guess we could say the same thing about Swiss watches. In the 50s the American watch brands delivered a very good product for a reasonable price. They rarely were as good as the premium Swiss watches but were probably as good if not better than the average Swiss watch. In the 70s the Japanese came in and messed everything up. Quartz watches mean that one of the long standing criteria of a superior watch was removed. While sub 5 second per day accuracy was considered premium in a mechanical watch, it's rather poor for a quartz watch. The durability of a quartz also was far superior to a mechanical. Basically the quartz watch SHOULD have made all mechanical obsolete and consigned them to the same grave yard as things like the Accutron. Instead, and perhaps because with clocks everywhere now watches are more a fashion item than a needed tool, we have now decided that these inferior mechanical movements are premium. If you wear one it's because you know more about watches than that common slob with a Tag quartz F1. No, it means I'm dumb enough to love an inaccurate mechanism more than a superior quartz movement. The Swiss did a brilliant job capitalizing on that. Now they get to charge more than ever for the same movements they were about to ditch in the 1970s. I think the ETA in my watch dates back to the late 60s or mid 70s.

[Ferrer]

I've had the same conversation with a friend, like you had with your BMW v Lincoln friend. Only this time it involved Mercedes-Benz and Alfa Romeo. His family has been a long a time customer of Daimler (and he currently drives a previous generation R171 SLK) and wouldn't be caught dead in an Alfa Romeo because well... it's an Alfa Romeo.

My question about the democratisation of luxury/premium arised from the article you posted. If I understood right one of the reasons that killed GM's class systems is that in the end everyone started offering the same to all customers, so that the expensive divisions started exploring cheaper segments of the market and viceversa.

This is a sort of what's happening with the current premium brands (with the possible difference that they are not, for the most part, part of large corporation and are treading on the toes of cheaper products made by the same group, or at least not as extensively as GM products did in 70's) and premium, altough not always objectively justified, is selling more than ever.

Arguably this should kill them (or take them into deep trouble at least) like did with GM divisions in the 70's and 80's. But it doesn't seem to be any signs of that in the market. Why?

[culver]

OK, I see your question now. I don't think we would see a merger of premium and mainstream brands. In the US Cadillac was always nicer than Chevy. The same was true of Lincoln and Ford. Only Chrysler fell to the point where a Chrysler was the same as a Dodge (Yes, Chrysler was once quite a premium make).

In Europe you had more competition so you never had companies develop the multi-layers like GM had (a very good idea for GM back in the day). The market has evolved to the point where I think there is pretty much room for mainstream and "Normal-Luxury". I will leave out the ultra luxury like Bentley and RR since they are very small volume. What gets squeezed out are the in betweens like Buick (alive only because China placed historic value on the name), Olds, SAAB and in the future possible Citroen and Volvo. Those brand might live if they are heavily based on other platforms but they are too small to support their own full lines.

The European premium brands did move down market some. Mercedes seems to be retreating from their move into the common class (A-class, low end C-class). But keep in mind that VW-Audi-Porsche are already doing the platform and parts sharing game. VW has experienced a case of too much overlap with the B5 Passat - Audi A4. I knew a few people who decided the cars were so similar and the Passat was the better buy. VW has since corrected this mistake. Toyota has also tried to have less obvious overlap between the Camry and the ES-350. Anyway, I think the market does have room for two levels so I don't see premium going away. However, it would be interesting to see, at least in the US, what the % luxury brand breakdown is now vs say in 1970. In 1970 Lincoln and Cadillac were the biggest luxury players with Chrysler likely 3rd. However, if I would count SAAB and Volvo as luxury today then Mercury, Olds, and Buick would all count back then.

Finally, so long as the brands are largely reworks of other models it shouldn't be too bad to have yet another brand. For instance, GMC trucks and SUVs are clearly just versions of other GM products. In some cases they at least don't look identical, in other cases they are clearly the same. However, GMC marketing really does work and GMC really does earn more per truck than Chevy so GM elected to keep the second brand. I think it was also because it gives Buick dealers in the US a sister product. VW of course has SEAT and Skoda. Again, clear re-badges but R&D for those are low so why not.

[Ferrer]

Well I guess European Groups are mainly in the same position because they do not have as many divisions as US Groups have (had).

Altough VAG is getting there (and there's the case of Seat and Skoda as you said, altough rarely staright rebadges) and FGA also had/has the problem of Alfa Romeo and Lancia which have suffered greatly under Fiat ownership and are languishing today.

By the way, I've always thought the Chrysler's premiumness was never properly exploited much like Saab's case. Is this correct or does the distance and ocean in between distortionates my view? I always have thought that Chrysler was the coolest of the American car makers.

EDIT Oh, and it seems like GM is having another go at Opel (http://www.autoblog.com/2012/07/01/opel-board-approves-new-turnaround-plan/). I wonder if it will be successful this time...

[culver]

I think Chrysler was premium until the 1970s. I think it was always trailing Lincoln and Cadillac but it was respectable and the company was an innovator. Some of the industry's firsts came from Chrysler. I think they were the fist to do ABS and I know they were the first to really embrace airbags. Then again I think they always felt a bit second tier hence the desire to create the DeSoto brand. However, around 1980 Chrysler was hard up it dumped any real pretense that the Chrysler brand was playing with Caddy and Lincoln. At that point it was more like the premium Fords and Buicks. You know, the ones that killed the marketing ladder GM worked so hard to set up. So by the 80s there was little to set Chrysler apart from Dodge.

As for Opel, well I hope GM gets them together. Then again, it might be better for the US if they didn't. That might move more car design back here. I think GM has looked at cars about the way Ford did. You have redundant design departments. In that case it makes sense to spread the load. The US gets trucks by default since we buy them. We also get the Corvette and Mustang. The rest gets sent over the world. Ford had Mazda and Ford Europe doing most cars. Now that Mazda's gone I suspect that Ford Europe is doing most of the car design work. They might be better than Ford US, but maybe not. The Ford of Europe products were nicer over the last 20 years but that also reflects the market demands and reality. GM seems to have done a similar thing. Australia does the RWD big cars. Korea does the little things. Europe does the middle stuff. I suppose both companies could dump Euro production but that seems rather dumb.

Anyway, I hope Opel can get sorted out.

[Ferrer]

Next problem, are convertibles on the way out?

Convertibles are down, but are they on the way out? (http://www.autoblog.com/2012/07/06/convertibles-are-down-but-are-they-on-the-way-out/)

Discuss.

[culver]

All out? Never. Down, well convertibles are typically the less practical choice. When times are good and money abounds people are more likely to spring for that toy car. When time get tough, and reports are these are tough times, "middle class" luxury items get reduced. So the number of high end convertibles probably won't change but the number of "middle class" convertibles likely will drop.

I'm not sure about in Europe but my impression in the US is we have fewer of what I might call sedan convertibles. By that I mean convertibles made from honest 4 seat cars vs two seaters (Miata, Z4) or basically two seaters (MINI). Sure, we still have the higher dollar models from BMW and Audi. We also have the Mustang and Camaro convertibles. What we don't have are as many things like the Camry Solara. Chrysler still makes the 200 convertible (the follow on of the Seabring... a decent car before the dark DC days) but the range of convertibles in the more affordable price range does seems to have declined.
I also wounder if this is a marginal cost thing. In the late 80s for instance GM not only had the Camaro convertible but convertible versions of the Cavalier and Beretta, the Corvette of course, and the Old's Cutlass vert. I'm not sure if any sold in great numbers but aside from the Corvette none were that expensive. Now GM has just the Camaro and Corvette in the US. So in the past was it cheaper to make a convertible version of a car? Is it that much more expensive to take the convertible through safety testing or are production costs that much more streamlined today where convertibles just suck up the margins?

It would be interesting to know.

Of course with record setting highs around here (43 C last weekend! A normal summer high might be 38) perhaps people are just more interested in cars with AC.

[Ferrer]

Here in Europe convertible versions of C-segment cars are still relatively common (Eos, Golf, Megane or 308 to name a few). For a while, with the advent of folding metal roofs, there also seemed to be a sparkle of B-segment based open topped cars, but it seems that only the 207 survived relatively healthily and it still remains to be seen if it will make the transition to the new 208.

If we go bigger than that it is indeed premium terrority, since generalist car makers can't compete on image and I guess that the developments costs for those would make it hard to price them competitively. Two seater roadsters are a different matter. The MX-5 reigns supreme at the lower end of the market and pretty much nothing can touch it (despite valiant attempts like the Renault Wind) altough the lead could be challenged by the recently introduced Mini Roadster. If we up the ante it is, again, premium all the way, up to the superexotic Lamborghinis, Ferraris and Paganis.

But all in all Europe the offer is still here for a wide array of budgets, so I personally wouldn't worry too much about the demise of the convertible yet.

I think that one of the features that has possibly saved the convertible from extinction is something that us, the petrolheads, don't like too much: the folding moetal roof. This has made the convertible and much more practical car, since it has allowed to double as an everyday car and a weekend toy. And the wider appeal is always good in terms of sales and therefore profits, helping it survive and maybe even making it more propular than it wouldn't have been with a soft top only.

[culver]

What's the price of a MINI Roadster vs MX-5? Personally I think the MINI Roadster is hideous but the standard MINI cabrio is fine. It wouldn't surprise me if the MINI cabrio has taken some sales from Mazda. The MX-5 was well placed when it came out because it could be sold both to the driver who appreciated the chassis and to the Sunday "cute convertible" driver. The MINI cabrio is perhaps not as good a chassis, though no slouch, but the MX-5 is one of the few cars that is less practical in terms of cargo space. I mean you can at least claim the MINI will seat 4. I would say you could put kids in the back but in the US that typically is not allowed without child seats. While infant seats are a significant safety feature, seats for younger kids aren't really of significant value. They represent legislation without ration.

[Dino Scuderia]

The article fails to take a good look through history as the late 70's immediately came to my mind when production of convertibles was halted due to crash concerns(in USA). Granted that wasn't a market condition....but way before that sales of convertibles have been up and down(no pun intended).

Wiki:

Coach convertible - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Ferrer]

What's the price of a MINI Roadster vs MX-5? Personally I think the MINI Roadster is hideous but the standard MINI cabrio is fine. It wouldn't surprise me if the MINI cabrio has taken some sales from Mazda. The MX-5 was well placed when it came out because it could be sold both to the driver who appreciated the chassis and to the Sunday "cute convertible" driver. The MINI cabrio is perhaps not as good a chassis, though no slouch, but the MX-5 is one of the few cars that is less practical in terms of cargo space. I mean you can at least claim the MINI will seat 4. I would say you could put kids in the back but in the US that typically is not allowed without child seats. While infant seats are a significant safety feature, seats for younger kids aren't really of significant value. They represent legislation without ration.
Here:

Mini Cooper Roadster (122bhp) 23.700€
Mini Cooper S Roadster (184bhp) 28.750€

Mazda MX-5 1.8i Soft Top (126bhp) 24.000€
Mazda MX-5 1.8i RC (126bhp) 26.550€
Mazda MX-5 2.0i RC (160bhp) 33.950€

Mini Cooper Cabriolet (122bhp) 24.600€
Mini Cooper S Cabriolet (184bhp) 29.700€

And as a comparison

BMW Z4 sDrive 20i (184hp) 40.300€
Mercedes-Benz SLK 200 (184bhp) 42.340€

The thing about the MX-5 is that, at least lately, it seems to be in a niche of its own. There have been attemps at detroning it, both from specialist sportscars (MR2 spings to mind) and hatchback-derived open-top two seaters (Barchetta and more recently the Renault Wind), but none of it have succeeded and all ended up disappearing. As you say, one of the reasons the MX-5 has been sucessful is that it does quite a lot of things very well, unlike their rivals which usually focused in one apsect but were poor at the others. However, if someone can crack it I'd certainly put my money on the folks at BMW.

It'd be a little sad though that the MX-5 was beaten by premium badge, because as good as the Mini is, it's not in the same league the MX-5 is in. Oh and by the way, I wouldn't be so sure about practicality, because as a former Mk1 Mini hardtop driver it may have a pair of extra seats, but with them in place the boot is smaller than the MX-5s. And one of the great MX-5 features is that since the top folds in its own compartment there's change in the boot's capacity if the top is up or down. Not many convertible can say that.

The article fails to take a good look through history as the late 70's immediately came to my mind when production of convertibles was halted due to crash concerns(in USA). Granted that wasn't a market condition....but way before that sales of convertibles have been up and down(no pun intended).

Wiki:

Coach convertible - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coach_convertible)
Indeed, and altough the situation is different there has been economic crises before and the convertible has survived through all of them. And if safety was the issue, convertibles are now safer than ever.

[Ferrer]

World cars: Not as simple as it sounds edition.

Homologation and Other Problems Delay New Ford Mondeo Production Start in Europe - Carscoop (http://carscoop.blogspot.com/2012/07/homologation-and-other-problems-delay.html)

[NSXType-R]

Leave it to the Chinese to run MG you say?

MG Roadster SUV Is Further Proof Of Humanity's Decline (http://jalopnik.com/5928048/mg-roadster-suv-is-further-proof-of-humanitys-decline?utm_campaign=socialflow_jalopnik_facebook&utm_source=jalopnik_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow)

[NSXType-R]

Not that it hasn't been discussed before, but where an electric car is charged makes a big difference in the supposed emissions of the car.

How Green Are Electric Cars? Depends on Where You Plug In - NYTimes.com (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/15/automobiles/how-green-are-electric-cars-depends-on-where-you-plug-in.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all)

It's a pretty old article, so I'm not sure if there are any updates to it.

That's still my biggest complaint about electric cars.

And that still leaves out the mining process for the rare earth metals in the battery and motor.

In a worst case scenario, supposedly an EV can get only 30 mpg and in a best case, it's about 50 mpg.

I'm also curious, how recycleable are EVs? Battery and motor technology can and will change- it's not like junkyards could make them useful 20 years down the line unless you're trying to restore a Chevy Volt.

[f6fhellcat13]

From here. (http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=987232&postcount=6733)

Yet they insist on retro muscle cars.
I remember reading somewhere that one of the spokespeople for one of the Big Three said that in the next few years their focus will finally begin to shift from the Baby Boomers to whatever it is that we're called and will start making cars accordingly. I think the next generation of Mustang has been confirmed to be styled for the 21st century, which is nice. I hope the Camaro changes as well. The Challenger is probably the most faithful to muscle cars of old: great sound, overweight, and ill-handling and therefore needn't change to stay acceptable but badly needs to change to stay competitive.

And then there's the Cadillac Ciel...
The Ciel and Sixteen are both excellent but that doesn't seem to be the direction the Cadillac wants to take.

Lincoln, too, is lost in the wilderness. Cadillac at least has released those few concepts in the last decade and has shown that, at a minimum, a small cell of its engineers and designers remember that they're designing Cadillacs. Lincoln has shown no such signs.
In a world where people will pay $65,000 for a Tahoe with chrome wheels and disturbingly-absent merlettes where the bowtie or GM badge should be, why shouldn't people pay $70,000-$80,000 or so for a range-topping proper Caddy, ducks and all?

Put a big engine in it, don't make it sporty, and make it as opulent while still reigning things in for the sake of taste.

Europeanness is overrated.
The grass is always greener.
I am reminded of the USDM subculture in Japan. They slavishly replace clear turn signals with amber, get license-plate surrounds from Californian car dealers, and try to get trim from American-market cars on their Japanese vehicles. Funnily enough, those items are the ones American JDM enthusiasts desire least.

It is also funny because JDM fads become USDM fads become slightly different JDM fads ad infinitum as each side of the Pacific copies the other.

Similarly, America apes Europe by pretending that basic sedans are sporty, and Europe imitates America by increasing new model's size by 999,999,999% each model cycle and letting GM mismanage and axe storied marques.

This is why I think, in theory, a world car is so promising: take all the best parts of car cultures around the world and incorporate it into one car. Unforunatley, those good parts are either mutually-exclusive or expensive and world cars are stuck in an indifferent place between best-of-all-worlds and worst-of-all-worlds.

[Ferrer]

I remember reading somewhere that one of the spokespeople for one of the Big Three said that in the next few years their focus will finally begin to shift from the Baby Boomers to whatever it is that we're called and will start making cars accordingly. I think the next generation of Mustang has been confirmed to be styled for the 21st century, which is nice. I hope the Camaro changes as well. The Challenger is probably the most faithful to muscle cars of old: great sound, overweight, and ill-handling and therefore needn't change to stay acceptable but badly needs to change to stay competitive.
You see my actual favourite of the current muscle car is precisely the Challenger, despite being probably the worse of the buch. But as you say it is the most muscle-carish, orange, big engine, big power and big noise. And who cares that it can't turn corners. Corners are overrated.

I actually quite fancy a 392 with a manual. I do not care that the most speed I could do in a corners is 20, that the car wouldn't fit in my parking space or that I'd be broke after a copule of tanks of fuel.

The big Dodge is one of those cars that needs no intriduction. It's one of those cars the reminds us why we like cars so much. And that's why it is a great car.

The grass is always greener.
I am reminded of the USDM subculture in Japan. They slavishly replace clear turn signals with amber, get license-plate surrounds from Californian car dealers, and try to get trim from American-market cars on their Japanese vehicles. Funnily enough, those items are the ones American JDM enthusiasts desire least.

It is also funny because JDM fads become USDM fads become slightly different JDM fads ad infinitum as each side of the Pacific copies the other.

Similarly, America apes Europe by pretending that basic sedans are sporty, and Europe imitates America by increasing new model's size by 999,999,999% each model cycle and letting GM mismanage and axe storied marques.

This is why I think, in theory, a world car is so promising: take all the best parts of car cultures around the world and incorporate it into one car. Unforunatley, those good parts are either mutually-exclusive or expensive and world cars are stuck in an indifferent place between best-of-all-worlds and worst-of-all-worlds.
Or like the diesel thing with North American petrolheads...

However, I for one think that a world car is a bad idea. Precisely by having to incorporate the very different attributes that a car needs in different parts of the world (sometimes even mutually exclusive) you are going to have to reach a compromise and that compromise might end up pleasing nobody.

Take new world Fords. They are a mish mash of attributes that makes them not quite as sharp as the old EDM Fords and far too big but at the same time too slow and uncomfortable for American tastes.

It is also curious that while Ford is going with the world car strategy, and GM also timidly with the Buick-Opel pairing, Hyundai and Volkswagen are going in the exact opposite direction developping products specifically for certain markets (Europe for Hyundai, North America for VW).

The next Mustang is going to go global apparently. How will this affect the basic design?

And by the way, which are the ones which are bleeding money badly in Europeland? ;)

[Ferrer]

Long life to the SUV!

Or something.

U.S. has fewer cars per person than Europe, but still uses twice as much energy (http://www.autoblog.com/2012/08/15/u-s-has-fewer-cars-per-person-than-europe-but-still-uses-twice/)

[culver]

How many km are driven on average per person? I mean driving across Germany is like driving across the wide part of Texas.

[Ferrer]

How many km are driven on average per person? I mean driving across Germany is like driving across the wide part of Texas.
That may explain it. I think that on the whole it is a very biased article...

[Ferrer]

Interesting comparison.

2012 Mini Cooper S Roadster vs. 2012 Mazda MX-5 Miata Special Edition (http://www.autoblog.com/2012/08/22/2012-mini-cooper-s-roadster-vs-2012-mazda-mx-5-miata-special-ed/)

They are wrong on the everyday-friendliness, though.

[NSXType-R]

Jalopnik posted this article yesterday- I wholeheartedly agree that cars are just the same general shapes because of the regulations on safety imposed by the government.

Photoshop Reveals How All Modern Cars Look The Same (http://jalopnik.com/5938235/photoshopped-grille-swaps-reveal-how-all-modern-cars-look-the-same/gallery/1)

Add on general considerations on aerodynamics, and they'll all look about the same.

[Ferrer]

I think that this article is seriously biased. Right from the day cars appeared on the streets there are cars that have resembled other cars. Also the cars that tend to be imitated are those who are successful and exepnsive, so it's normal that Hondas or Toyotas try to look like Benzes and BMWs.

In any case, the notion that an X1 may look even remotely like a RAV4 is laughable. If only for the fact the mechanical layouts are completely different. And a crudely photoshopped Toyota grille in a BMW X1 won't make me change of opinion...

[pimento]

Bizarrely enough, I agree with the comments I saw on that article.. it's a load of rubbish. You could do that with any era and get the same results.. very questionable 'shops that would fool people who wouldn't know anyway.

[Ferrer]

Aston Martin range increasingly difficult to comprehend.

Aston Martin Virage discontinued after short lifespan (http://www.autoblog.com/2012/09/04/aston-martin-virage-discontinued-after-short-lifespan/)

Honestly, can anyone make any sense out of Aston Martin? As far as I'm concerned it looks like like they've been introducing, producing, discontinouing, reintroducing, reproducing, rediscontinouing, rereintroducing,... slightly different versions of the same car since the 1640s...

[pimento]

To be fair, the Virage was just what the DB9 should've been. Also if they move away from the 'DB' nomanclature now it will be a bit of a shame, cos it rules out there being a DBX. There should be one of those. Then there can be a leopard print one with many body enhancements called the DBXXX.

[f6fhellcat13]

Aston Martin range increasingly difficult to comprehend.

Aston Martin Virage discontinued after short lifespan (http://www.autoblog.com/2012/09/04/aston-martin-virage-discontinued-after-short-lifespan/)

Honestly, can anyone make any sense out of Aston Martin? As far as I'm concerned it looks like like they've been introducing, producing, discontinouing, reintroducing, reproducing, rediscontinouing, rereintroducing,... slightly different versions of the same car since the 1640s...

They do have one ugly swanling (har har) that looks different from the rest of the range…

[NSXType-R]

I couldn't make ends or tails of the Aston Martin range either and I practically gave up, especially when they look alike.

Even the V8 Vantage eventually got a V12.

[Ferrer]

World Car, Ford edition. Part II.

Ford Europe goes further with American vehicles (http://www.autoblog.com/2012/09/06/ford-europe-goes-further-with-american-vehicles/)
Ford Edge going to Europe, will be joined by EcoSport (http://www.autoblog.com/2012/09/06/ford-edge-going-to-europe-will-be-joined-by-ecosport/)
Ford Mustang headed to Europe (http://www.autoblog.com/2012/09/06/ford-mustang-headed-to-europe/)

I'm not sure it'll work out for Ford, though...

[henk4]

New Ford Mondeo, fitted with a 1 litre, 125 BHP three cylinder engine...

[Matra et Alpine]

I struggle to understand how this Ford plan makes sense.

So the European designed cars were used as "global platform" a few years back and saved them but they didn't really bother keeping the European designs up-dated so lost market share.

Now they surmise that a world car based on a US platform will win it back ?

hmmm, confusing cause and effect methinks :)

Will wait and see how they handle on the twisties !! Hope they listen to the design team in Germany for more than just cosmetic changes :)

[Ferrer]

New Ford Mondeo, fitted with a 1 litre, 125 BHP three cylinder engine...
And it's actually much, much bigger than the outgoing Mondeo, thanks to being the same car as the USDM Fusion...

[Ferrer]

I do not know if we have discussed this before, but anyway, here we go.

The recent test drive of the new Merc A-Class, my own MX-5 and MoS's review of the Scenic has made me think about something. Are new cars simply too hard and sporty these days?

First of all I have to say that I like great handling cars and that a stiff suspension helps control bodyroll and therefore aids handling. Handling is one of the most important attributes for me when buying a car. That's the main reason why, in late 2011, I bought a rear wheel drive, two-seater, sportscar; the Mazda MX-5.

Little did I know when I collected it from the dealer that I was in for a big shock. I was expecting a character similar to the Mini Cooper S. In short, a hard riding, hard charging, fire breathing monster with an insatiable apetite for oversteer and I-want-to-kill-you antics as long as you didn't do everything perfectly.

What I got instead was one of the best riding cars, this side of a Jaguar, I've ever driven. It rides so nicely, that if it wasn't for the road noise due to the open roof and the small fuel tank it would make for a great GT car, this. However, in long open corners it also rolls a bit (for a sportscar, that is) and the small(ish) and high(ish) profile tyres make it a tad imprecise.

So I was confused - did one of the icons of petrolheads actually not handle properly? Had I bought the wrong car? If the handling was no good, then what was all the fuss about? But I was wrong, it wasn't the car's fault, it was mine. Take it out of the open roads with long sweeping corners and into the narrow, twisty country lanes (MX-5 territory, really), keep the revs up, go for it and suddenly everything starts to make sense.

The steering is comunicative (if a tad light for my liking), the front end is incisive and low weight makes direction changes instantaneous. The imprecision is replaced by nobility at the limit; even if you over step it, it won't bite you back. And the soft suspension also has other advantages, like full confidence when attacking a bumpy road, unlike other cars with stiffer suspension (*cough* Mini *cough*) where you seem to jump from bump to bump.

Even if perhaps the suspension is a bit too soft, if the Mazda has taught me anything over the last 9 months is that you don't need a needlessly hard suspension to make a car handle properly. Which brings me neatly to the new Mercedes-Benz A-Class.

This car is the exact opposite of the Mazda. Grip is plentiful and handling doesn't seem to be particularly interesting. Furthermore we are speaking here about a front wheel drive diesel hatchback with an automatic, not a mean sounding V8 engined AMG car; so why the hell does the ride have to be so hard? Most of the time you are not going to "use" the suspension, and yet the bumps will be felt all the time, even the 90% of which you don't want to go experimenting with the laws of physics.

I knew that there are "sports" packs and "sports" suspensions which always have had preposterpus rides - I've always thought that people who ticked them in their spec sheet needed urgent psycological assistance... - but it seems that this epidemy is infecting everything. The Merc I drove had the standard suspension (or so I was told), albeit with optional 18 inch wheels, and the ride was simply unacceptable. A Q7 I rode in a while ago made you feel bumps like you were in a Porsche 911 GT3 RS. Why?

I'm sorry but this so-called sportiness has to stop. It is unnecessary to make all cars pointlessly "stiff" to make them "handle". It's far more important to develop a proper chasis to make it good most of the time rather than make the suspension needlessly hard, something which you won't be able to appreciate unless some very specific conditions are achieved.

And this way I can round it off nicely with MoS's Scenic review. Yes it's soft. Yes it feels a bit like a boat. But at least it's not pretending to be what it isn't. At least it knows what it is. And for this we have to be thankful.

[NSXType-R]

Well you can't assume that all cars are becoming more sporty because of one poorly tuned Mercedes A class. Who puts 18 inch tires on a subcompact (?) car? Styling trends like that make no sense and even worse sense on an engineering standpoint. Your sidewalls are very tiny, you get rock hard ride and you end up with a lot of unsprung weight because of the huge and heavy tires. Plus you eat up interior room with large tires. Tires are more expensive to replace and the rims are astronomical in cost.

The 2nd gen Accord in my family has 13 inch tires. We got around just find with smaller tires.

In my opinion, I think cars have become too rubbery and desensitized, but hey, what do I know?

[RacingManiac]

Big wheels are tires are a fix for the trend of the elevating beltline and nose of the newer car. Pedestrian safety means hood has to be higher and that necessitated a shift up for basically all the side profile. The wheelwell to top of fender distance got bigger, so they made the wheelwell bigger to maintain the old profile, look, and thus needs bigger wheel/tire to fill it out...

As far as ride goes, I have no idea why all the new cars ride the way they do. My car is pretty choppy for the roads around here, but for what it is the car is pretty composed over bump even midcorner when the tires are loaded up. But day to day on the broken MI pavement its pretty harsh. Strangely people comment this is one of the better riding(in US's rather limited sporty compact market) hot(-ish) hatch. I dread to think whats a poor riding one...

Rubbery, old cars are rubbery....try driving that Accord with the 13" wheel at speed...my Camry was a POS in anything related to actually driving it, every other aspect its pretty good...

I think the desensitized aspect is overblown. The limit of the modern cars are much higher, as a result you do feel "less" as you need to be going quite fast to upset it. Its the reason why they make something like the Toyobaru with less than great tires. They try to make the limit lower so you can actually get to the limit handling....

[Man of Steel]

And this way I can round it off nicely with MoS's Scenic review. Yes it's soft. Yes it feels a bit like a boat. But at least it's not pretending to be what it isn't. At least it knows what it is. And for this we have to be thankful.

Wow, that's deep. I can only judge from my own car history and to be perfectly honest I have not driven many different cars besides that. The cars I had though always had a modest number of horses under the hood and were front wheel driven. As it were compact cars their weight was modest too, which added to a still acceptable performance in daily traffic.

I must say that with the '99 Fiesta and Ka I owned I actually got a bit spoiled as the handling of those cars could almost be described as 'dynamic' and 'sporty'. Although there was a total lack of horsepower I enjoyed driving them. This related to the overall feel of the suspension (the Fiesta had 14" alloys with slightly wider tyres then standard which might make a small difference).

In the class of small cars, it is not all about stiff suspension settings I think (although I have not driven newer small Fords). But after that we bought the '08 Twingo and I was in a completely different world. Same conditions but a totally different driving experience. Sure, it does the job perfectly. But the steering is just too light, designed for ladies it seems (reason I drove a purple Ka was that my wife missed the power steering).. You can park it with your finger tip but at 130 km/h it feels plainly unnatural after having driver the likes of Fiesta, Ka - plus my first car was a 3rd generation Starlet.

Well, what can I say. My first car bought with the heart was the Alfa. I have told too much about this car already. Needless to say I am very happy with the handling. The handling of the 147 is a perfect balance between sporty and comfort and gives me the same "fun factor" feeling as with the Ford's. Having 2,5 times more horses also helps of course. The steering feel is perfect, not overpowered and steady as a rock, also at 160 km/h. Only disadvantage is that it is certainly no light car, but in the corners it feels much lighter. The standard 16" alloys give the best ride comfort I have been told, when going to 17" you will feel the difference. Even bigger wheels on the 147 are ridiculous by the way.

Of course, as stated in my "review" it is non-sense to compare the driving experience of an Alfa with a French comfy MPV. It just made me aware that I do appreciate a more sporty ride, as I have driven a few cars which gave me a smile on my face which is my general rule of comparison. This does not mean that I am longing for a broken back when I am passing the roadworks in a lowered racemonster, but I need a car where I can at least feel what the wheels are doing, not a waterbed. I think there should be a way in between.

I like driving other cars and I realise they can not all give my desired ride quality of preference. Some people may like the comfy rides or not notice even the vague steering. The ride in the Scenic just convinced me that I missed my own car. And made me realise I will not buy a stupid MPV, even not when there is a newborn. We will just keep the Alfa, it has 5 doors (or get an Alfa station?) :cool:

[Ferrer]

Rubbery, old cars are rubbery....try driving that Accord with the 13" wheel at speed...my Camry was a POS in anything related to actually driving it, every other aspect its pretty good...
It's true though that most have lost the mechanical connection between the car and the driver.

I think the desensitized aspect is overblown. The limit of the modern cars are much higher, as a result you do feel "less" as you need to be going quite fast to upset it. Its the reason why they make something like the Toyobaru with less than great tires. They try to make the limit lower so you can actually get to the limit handling....
I like low limits. This way you can play and if you get it wrong it's more difficult to get killed to death.

Of course, as stated in my "review" it is non-sense to compare the driving experience of an Alfa with a French comfy MPV. It just made me aware that I do appreciate a more sporty ride, as I have driven a few cars which gave me a smile on my face which is my general rule of comparison. This does not mean that I am longing for a broken back when I am passing the roadworks in a lowered racemonster, but I need a car where I can at least feel what the wheels are doing, not a waterbed. I think there should be a way in between.
I think the key is striking a good balance between handling and comfort. There's no point in having a great handling car if it breaks your back everytime you go over a bump and like wise a comfortable car with a suspension so soft it makes you sick is no good either.

Sometimes it also depends on the car you are driving. You see, I'm more inclined to forgive the Mini's rock hard ride because it's actually a hoot to drive in the corners. However, I cannot forgive the bounciness of an Abarth or the harshness of the new A-Class. For an everyday car, I'm more inclined to to stray a little bit more towards comfort and cars like the Hyundai i30 or the BMW 1 Series show that you are not necessarily giving up on handling.

[jcp123]

The last Astons I liked were powered by straight sixes...

[Ferrer]

The last Astons I liked were powered by straight sixes...
DB7 it is, then... ;)

Anyway.

For different reasons I've been driving a lot of new cars lately, and this weekend I've had a DS4 from Citroën. As a result of this, I've decided that all this array of new Infocarentertainment Bluetooth-sensing Satnav I-Drive MMI system things are all far too complicated and completely unfathomable, aside from being utterly annyoing.

These days most of the controls that govern all those gadgets have been grouped on dashboard and on the steering wheel as well as on the centre console sometimes. This means that the inside of your car no longer resembles the inside of car. It looks more like the controls of a space shuttle.

So if you want to change a radio station you've got to go into the computer, into the radio submenu and then try to find the radio station in a list, which is just impossible. And of course you cannot change the dial manually because that's so 20th century. In the Citroën, once I found one that I more or less liked, I decided to stick with it the entire weekend...

And the radio is just the tip of the iceberg. I don't know yet how the sat-nav works or how to change the screen, and connecting the mobile phone to the car's bluetooth system was a nightmare - thank god nobody called me whi le on the car the entire weekend because I wouldn't have known how to pick it up.

Basically you'd spend the entire life to learn how it works only to find that your car has gone old and you have to change. But you'll think - aha! car makers have had to more or less standardise these things. Except that they haven't. So once you get in a BMW 1 Series you have to start all over again, and you realise that you do not find any of the buttons, and that you cannot change the radio stations or the cruise control because well you are moving and you take the time to search the buttons and find out how they work you are going to have a horrible accident.

And then there are the buzzes and lights. At night, the inside of the Citroen DS4 is shinier than a disco glitter ball. Thankfully Citroen have fitted a button that darkens most of the screens and dials (which later on I discovered was duplicated...) for more comfortable driving when it goes dark. The only problem is that the only dial available is the speedo, so you don't know anything about the revs or how much fuel you have left... Great! If you want to see it you push the button to switch on the screens and everything and the whole thing lights up like a supernova! So most probably you'll be blinded, you'll crash and die.

But it's not all lights, cars these days also make noises. And not all of them are mechanical. The DS4's sat nav shows you the speed cameras and traffic light cameras, which is very nice but it also buzzes when you go past them. Even if it's not necessarily the road you are in but one that crosses it... Nevertheless the new Mercedes-Benz A-Class is even better. It has a systems which detects when you approach a slower moving object at a high(ish) rate of speeds and it flashes a red triangle on the dashboard to warn. It also emits a beep if it considers the accident is about to happen. In a short 10 minute test drive I heard the damn beep three times (mostly due to overtaking maneouvres). And don't even think of trying to find the button that switches those systems off, because you won't find it. So these might help you stay alive, but you might want to have a crash on purpose just to stop them.

Have cars gotten to complicated and annoying with thinkgs that are not related to driving? The answer is clearly yes.

Thoughts?

[RacingManiac]

Yes, new cars have way too much crap in them...strangely I still don't have a car with a color screen....

[jcp123]

Nobody will be surprised that I also agree that interior ergonomics have passed their zenith and have too much complication these days...

[f6fhellcat13]

This is certainly not the level of flash to which you're referring, but I was pleasantly-surprised with the digital speedo on the Civic. I thought that it would be horrible, but it is nice to look up and instantaneously know your speed.

As for all the other stuff, perhaps the car industry will eventually go down the Apple route: offer a minimum of user-controlability, algorithms to figure out the user's preferences and change settings accordingly, and an intuitive and simple interface that minimizes time invested.

That being said, ECUs, sparkplugs, lights, the clock, and the radio are about enough electronics for me. Sure, adding a few doodads can make driving more pleasant, but the grosses of mostly-useless thingimawhatsits added these days find no favor from me.

[jcp123]

This is certainly not the level of flash to which you're referring, but I was pleasantly-surprised with the digital speedo on the Civic. I thought that it would be horrible, but it is nice to look up and instantaneously know your speed.

As for all the other stuff, perhaps the car industry will eventually go down the Apple route: offer a minimum of user-controlability, algorithms to figure out the user's preferences and change settings accordingly, and an intuitive and simple interface that minimizes time invested.

That being said, ECUs, sparkplugs, lights, the clock, and the radio are about enough electronics for me. Sure, adding a few doodads can make driving more pleasant, but the grosses of mostly-useless thingimawhatsits added these days find no favor from me.

Again I agree. Most of this stuff seems like a marketing ploy rather than something useful. Most people don't realize it, but it's just more crap to break.

I do find it amazing that Cadillac had digital speedos, they were downed as "old people stuff", and as soon as Honda has one, it's not that bad.

[NSXType-R]

This is certainly not the level of flash to which you're referring, but I was pleasantly-surprised with the digital speedo on the Civic. I thought that it would be horrible, but it is nice to look up and instantaneously know your speed.

As for all the other stuff, perhaps the car industry will eventually go down the Apple route: offer a minimum of user-controlability, algorithms to figure out the user's preferences and change settings accordingly, and an intuitive and simple interface that minimizes time invested.

That being said, ECUs, sparkplugs, lights, the clock, and the radio are about enough electronics for me. Sure, adding a few doodads can make driving more pleasant, but the grosses of mostly-useless thingimawhatsits added these days find no favor from me.

I'm not sure if I'd like a digital speedometer. I haven't driven a new Civic before, but I do like the cleaner look of just two dials.

I'm not sure how they work, but I hear some car companies are offering "apps" for cars. I'm not sure how that'd be useful other than for entertainment purposes.

Also, the new Cadillacs have touchscreens that replace a lot of buttons. I don't like that either- a lot of features I get used to in a car and I can adjust by feel. Change for the sake of change is not always good.

[Ferrer]

This is certainly not the level of flash to which you're referring, but I was pleasantly-surprised with the digital speedo on the Civic. I thought that it would be horrible, but it is nice to look up and instantaneously know your speed.
Curious you mention it. The DS4 had the option of a digital speedometer (inside the analog one) and I rarely used it. In fact only to see the precise top speed of the car and to prove the cruise control wrong (doing 102km/h when I had set it to 100km/h, WTF? I even have photographic proof...)

Worse was the digital tachometer, and there was no option on it. The thing is, it isn't as precise as a needle and neither at particular engine speed (it has blocks for indication, so you had at some rpb between a certain range) and neither is it good at showing you the increasing/decrasing rate of you engine speed.

I want my needles back!

(Or something)

[f6fhellcat13]

Curious you mention it. The DS4 had the option of a digital speedometer (inside the analog one) and I rarely used it. In fact only to see the precise top speed of the car and to prove the cruise control wrong (doing 102km/h when I had set it to 100km/h, WTF? I even have photographic proof...)

So I saw. I was actually going to ask you what was going on. The Camry's and the Civic's cruise controls get you within a range of the desired speed. A two-klick disparity is definitely within that range; I would say 2-3 mph is necessary before the car lets off the gas or violently accelerates (neither system is/was particularly refined).

Worse was the digital tachometer, and there was no option on it. The thing is, it isn't as precise as a needle and neither at particular engine speed (it has blocks for indication, so you had at some rpb between a certain range) and neither is it good at showing you the increasing/decreasing rate of you engine speed.

I want my needles back!

(Or something)
The Civic retains an analog tach, which is nice.
It's like the digital vs. analog clock debate people complain that kids raised on digital clocks have less of a concept of time; they are less likely to realize that 15 or 30 minutes are a quarter of or half of an hour because they don't often see time visualized on a clock face. The same is true of a tach; seeing the relative position of your current engine speed to idle and redline is nice. Whereas with a speedometer only your current speed matter unless you have one of the horrendous 85 mph speedos from the '80s and then you can see your speed relative to the limit.

[Ferrer]

So I saw. I was actually going to ask you what was going on. The Camry's and the Civic's cruise controls get you within a range of the desired speed. A two-klick disparity is definitely within that range; I would say 2-3 mph is necessary before the car lets off the gas or violently accelerates (neither system is/was particularly refined).
I even managed to get it up to 84km/h, from a 80km/h preset speed. Then the screen inside the speedo flashes, you get distracted, crash and die.

Again.

Anyway I think they should be more precise because if you set a determinate speed because you don't want to get caught by speed cameras but then tge car accelerates itself... what's the point?

The Civic retains an analog tach, which is nice.
It's like the digital vs. analog clock debate people complain that kids raised on digital clocks have less of a concept of time; they are less likely to realize that 15 or 30 minutes are a quarter of or half of an hour because they don't often see time visualized on a clock face. The same is true of a tach; seeing the relative position of your current engine speed to idle and redline is nice. Whereas with a speedometer only your current speed matter unless you have one of the horrendous 85 mph speedos from the '80s and then you can see your speed relative to the limit.
You see, I prefer analog speedos as well. They give me a greater sense of control, of accelerating and decelarating. It's possibly a psycological thing, but in these days of speed cameras every 100 metres I want to be as safe as possible.

Other than speed and revs, though, everything else can go digital, as far as I am concerned.

[Kitdy]

You see, I prefer analog speedos as well. They give me a greater sense of control, of accelerating and decelarating. It's possibly a psycological thing, but in these days of speed cameras every 100 metres I want to be as safe as possible.

Speed cameras are the work of Satan. Thank Jesus that they ain't no thing in Ontario.

I have not received a single ticket in my entire driving career.

The tech shit in cars now drives me absolutely batty. My friend's Mk. 3 Focus has been a nightmare. My Ford Touch makes everything more complicated. The Insignia in Scotland made things such as changing the radio far more complex than it needed to be. I do not want a screen in the middle of my car. I want an analogue tach, speedo, temperature, and fuel gauge. I quite like late 90s early 00s BMW instrumentation. Hell, I like my Golf instrumentation. I want a real handbrake. The only buttons on my steering wheel that are acceptable would be volume up and down, station change, and maybe accept phone call. I never use cruise.

The only new techy feature I am at all interested in would be Bluetooth, and I am not that sure that I want to call when driving. Oh, and mp3 player integration where you can change tracks thought your stereo system.

I could understand all of this if the digital shit made things easier but in almost every case it makes driving harder and more distracting!!! This makes me crazy!

I am becoming a neo-neo-luddite. Embrace some technology, not all, but question your use of every tech in your life.

[Kitdy]

Screw GPS/sat-nav directions too. I might only want a GPS for tracking speed more accurately.

[f6fhellcat13]

I even managed to get it up to 84km/h, from a 80km/h preset speed. Then the screen inside the speedo flashes, you get distracted, crash and die.

Again.

Anyway I think they should be more precise because if you set a determinate speed because you don't want to get caught by speed cameras but then the car accelerates itself... what's the point?

You see, I prefer analog speedos as well. They give me a greater sense of control, of accelerating and decelerating. It's possibly a psychological thing, but in these days of speed cameras every 100 metres I want to be as safe as possible.

I had forgotten about them. I understand now why you were peeved. Perhaps with the DS4 it is a laissez-faire French thing and the car doesn't care as long as its in the ballpark of your set speed.

There is so little acceleration going on in the Civic that it doesn't matter, I guess. :p You make a good point though; perhaps the reason I like analog tachs is because engine speed is dynamic. The tach tends to change quickly, whereas in a slow car, the speedo does not. I would agree that in a car with sporting pretensions whose speed isn't quasi-static, I prefer an analog speedometer as well.


Speed cameras are the work of Satan. Thank Jesus that they ain't no thing in Ontario.
Fortunately, California has a nice little clause that says your speed must fit your conditions. This obviously means when it's raining drive slower (L.A. driving in the rain is hilarious) and other common-sense things like that, but conversely, if everyone (including you) is doing 85 in a 70, you'll mostly be left alone by CHP because driving significantly slower than the speed of traffic can be as dangerous as speeding. Either that clause or the fact that we're dead broke has prevented the use of speed cameras in California and I hope it stays that way.
We do have red-light cameras, which are misused in their own special way, but I have less of a problem with those.

I want an analogue tach, speedo, temperature, and fuel gauge. I quite like late 90s early 00s BMW instrumentation. Hell, I like my Golf instrumentation. I want a real handbrake.
I feel like the disappearance of handbrakes is down to Yurps (and Japanese with their CVTs) finally embracing alternative transmissions so they have started marginalizing the handbrake like American companies did back in the day. Even when I drive automatics I engage it when I park out of habit.
This is also one of the greatest flaws of right-hand drive cars: the handbrake is on the other side of the shifter.


I am becoming a neo-neo-luddite. Embrace some technology, not all, but question your use of every tech in your life.

Surely you mean neo-post luddite...:rolleyes: Or post-neoluddite...

[Ferrer]

Screw GPS/sat-nav directions too. I might only want a GPS for tracking speed more accurately.
I don't mind Satnav, as long as it is intuitive to use. I can definitely do without it though. Been to many places without it and always arrived to destination. And if you follow the signs, have a map and have studied the route before it's not that easy to get really lost.

I think that Satnav is really useful inside big, dense urban areas. There they can greatly help, especially if it's no familiar territory.

Another thing that puzzles me is automatic wipers. Some systems are more complicated than others but I pretty much always struggle to find out how they work.

Either they are on when they shouldn't be or the auto system isn't set properly so it starts raining torrentially and you can't see anything (and you crash and die bla bla bla...) and then it stops raining and they start working, or a couple of drops fall from the sky and the wipers move in and out frantically as if it was the flood myth all over again and you look like a bit of an idiot...

I had forgotten about them. I understand now why you were peeved. Perhaps with the DS4 it is a laissez-faire French thing and the car doesn't care as long as its in the ballpark of your set speed.

There is so little acceleration going on in the Civic that it doesn't matter, I guess. :p You make a good point though; perhaps the reason I like analog tachs is because engine speed is dynamic. The tach tends to change quickly, whereas in a slow car, the speedo does not. I would agree that in a car with sporting pretensions whose speed isn't quasi-static, I prefer an analog speedometer as well.
The car that actually taught me that cruise control isn't really infallible was the Lancia Delta.

It was more or less the same situation as the Citroën. I had set the speed at 80km/h, which was the speed limit. The error margin for speed cameras here is 10% or 10km/h (whichever is higher) so the danger zone starts at 90km/h.

We then got to a descending slope. And all of a sudden the car decides it's ok to ignore the cruise controls and suddenyl gets up to 90km/h. I braked immediately but that gave quite a scare (I prefer to be caught doing a million rather than just straying over the limit... :rolleyes: ).

Since then I've never really trusted cruise controls anymore, especially in speed camera-infested areas and always keep an eye on the speedometer, just in case.

I feel like the disappearance of handbrakes is down to Yurps (and Japanese with their CVTs) finally embracing alternative transmissions so they have started marginalizing the handbrake like American companies did back in the day. Even when I drive automatics I engage it when I park out of habit.
This is also one of the greatest flaws of right-hand drive cars: the handbrake is on the other side of the shifter.
Hill holder systems in manual-equipped cars have also made handbrakes for hill starts pretty much redundant.

[Kitdy]

Hill holder systems in manual-equipped cars have also made handbrakes for hill starts pretty much redundant.

They useful for 180s and donuts in the snow, also as an emergency backup!

[Ferrer]

More problems with the modern horseless carriage.

On the new Audi A3 several functions, including the radio, are controlled and seen through a screen that can be raised and lowered in the middle of the dashboard. The problem is that when it is up, it is distracting and it block the view somewhat.

You can lower it and still change the radio station or whatever, but there's no place to be seen what you are changing. So maybe you are setting the cruise control at a million and you don't know. And then you crash and die. Or you tell the car to beep if you go over 20km/h and you don't know how to turn it off. And the only way to stop it is to have an accident on purpose to end it.

And die. Again.

Probably.

You get the sense, these days, that the modern car manufacturer does not appreciate the health of its customers very much...

Or something.

[jcp123]

I always sucked using the e-brake for hill starts...

[henk4]

More problems with the modern horseless carriage.

On the new Audi A3 several functions, including the radio, are controlled and seen through a screen that can be raised and lowered in the middle of the dashboard. The problem is that when it is up, it is distracting and it block the view somewhat.


These days things go terribly wrong when the word :"menu" comes into play. A car is not a restaurant.

[Ferrer]

These days things go terribly wrong when the word :"menu" comes into play. A car is not a restaurant.
Neither is a mobile phone or a computer... ;)

Amyway.

I have now another target.

Flat bottomed steering wheels.

They are so hateful and uncomfortable. You turn and all of sudden there's an apex in the steering wheel. It is not continous, which makes it very unpleasant to operate. And making something you'll spend most of your time with your hands on it annyoing is not a good idea.

A family hatchback is not a racing car. Entrance isn't difficult or cramped. So there's no need for flat bottmed steering wheels at all. Just because it sport and racy and F1 cars have it doesn't mean it belong on your 20grand front wheel drive automatic dishwasher.

[RacingManiac]

^ Agreed. I have one, I don't like it. I am more or less used to it now, but when I first had the car, it's rather annoying. Race car has minimum steering wheel turn lock to lock, and they have the cram the driver in a tiny space, they need to make room to let the driver get in the car. On a road car it makes no sense...

[jcp123]

LOL yeah, I thought it was comical when I worked for the rental car company and we got a Corolla S with the squared-bottom steering wheel. So unnecessary, so ricey.

[henk4]

Neither is a mobile phone or a computer... ;)



which is exactly why these should also not be used in cars....at least not where they can be operated while driving.

and our C3 has this terrible steering wheel and I don't mind. It does not distract me.

[Ferrer]

This is funny.

Feature Flick: Making the 2014 Lexus IS More Fun to Drive - Rumor Central (http://rumors.automobilemag.com/engineering-the-2014-lexus-is-in-latest-downshift-episode-199019.html#axzz2IpHBfqEL)

But not in the way they intend it to be.

I'm sorry but driving enjoyment cannot be measured. A car is either fun to drive or not; a series of parameters don't decide.

Probably.

[crisis]

Holden on until 2022, but Commodore slipping away - BBC Top Gear Australia (http://www.topgear.com/au/car-news/holden-future-safe-until-2022)

While it’s fair to say no one really cares about Australian cars but Australians, this is yet another harbinger of things to come. The Australian car industry is unique in a rather anachronistic way in that it is probably one of the only countries that still produce large rear wheel drive budget sedans with 6 and 8 cylinder engines. While the rest of the world has moved on to generic front wheel drive 4cyl and diesels (and worse) we have held onto the original automotive design (I’m sure someone will contend this) and made some very impressive cars given our economy of scale. People will harp on about build quality and reliably but having owned 7 different model Commodores over more than 20 years reliability has never been a problem. Build quality is subjective as you can’t build a $80,000 car and sell it for $40,000. Comparisons with European cars is pointless when you pay twice the price for an entry level car with half the engine. Of course you can use better quality fabric and plastic.
Rant aside the point of this (yes there is one) is that the end is nigh. Ford Australia will be the first to step down followed by Holden in 2022. From that day forward the only way to but a rear wheel drive 6cyl will be to cough up $80,000 plus for a 335i or a C300. Now as for buying a car for transport it obviously makes sense to buy one of the endless forgettable 4cl small sedans currently available. But as a minor enthusiast I have yet to drive anything that rivals the fun of a big V8 rear wheel drive. Having been forced to cough up my CV8 Monaro stings all the worse given the times ahead. I only hope that I can at some future stage get hold of another V8 Commie as a pure personal indulgence and live with the future irony of it once have been nothing more than a cheap Aussie made car for bogans.

[Ferrer]

How one of the most significant cars of the last 40 years was born.

Tada: How Toyota and Subaru created the GT86 | Toyota UK news, reviews, video and pictures (http://blog.toyota.co.uk/tada-how-toyota-and-subaru-created-the-gt86)

[Matra et Alpine]

"40 years" ....... :) .... less cerveza por favour :)

[NSXType-R]

Holden on until 2022, but Commodore slipping away - BBC Top Gear Australia (http://www.topgear.com/au/car-news/holden-future-safe-until-2022)

While it’s fair to say no one really cares about Australian cars but Australians, this is yet another harbinger of things to come. The Australian car industry is unique in a rather anachronistic way in that it is probably one of the only countries that still produce large rear wheel drive budget sedans with 6 and 8 cylinder engines. While the rest of the world has moved on to generic front wheel drive 4cyl and diesels (and worse) we have held onto the original automotive design (I’m sure someone will contend this) and made some very impressive cars given our economy of scale. People will harp on about build quality and reliably but having owned 7 different model Commodores over more than 20 years reliability has never been a problem. Build quality is subjective as you can’t build a $80,000 car and sell it for $40,000. Comparisons with European cars is pointless when you pay twice the price for an entry level car with half the engine. Of course you can use better quality fabric and plastic.
Rant aside the point of this (yes there is one) is that the end is nigh. Ford Australia will be the first to step down followed by Holden in 2022. From that day forward the only way to but a rear wheel drive 6cyl will be to cough up $80,000 plus for a 335i or a C300. Now as for buying a car for transport it obviously makes sense to buy one of the endless forgettable 4cl small sedans currently available. But as a minor enthusiast I have yet to drive anything that rivals the fun of a big V8 rear wheel drive. Having been forced to cough up my CV8 Monaro stings all the worse given the times ahead. I only hope that I can at some future stage get hold of another V8 Commie as a pure personal indulgence and live with the future irony of it once have been nothing more than a cheap Aussie made car for bogans.

I was a bit nostalgic when the Ford Crown Victoria went away too. But that's mostly because police cars will become more varied and spotting them from afar becomes more difficult. :D

All joking aside, I see the merits of a cheap RWD sedan- perhaps not with as large an engine- maybe a straight 6 would be nice, but what's wrong with experimenting? The last time North America got a 4 cylinder RWD sedan was probably over 20 years ago with the Mercedes 190 E or the BMW 3 series. Of course, in Europe there are smaller displacement/cylinder options, but I'd like to see that come back too.

We need RWD sedans!

[LTSmash]

All joking aside, I see the merits of a cheap RWD sedan- perhaps not with as large an engine- maybe a straight 6 would be nice, but what's wrong with experimenting? The last time North America got a 4 cylinder RWD sedan was probably over 20 years ago with the Mercedes 190 E or the BMW 3 series. Of course, in Europe there are smaller displacement/cylinder options, but I'd like to see that come back too.

We need RWD sedans!

Couldn't agree more with this. Perhaps it would give more appeal to the cheaper sedan than just being something you see young couples driving around.

I had to drive a rental a few weeks ago (2012 Ford Focus) and was dying to get my car back from the shop. It felt so automated as if it were driving me around. And too many buttons and whatnot that were too distracting for the interstate. I did get a good laugh from the torque converter though...

[f6fhellcat13]

Couldn't agree more with this. Perhaps it would give more appeal to the cheaper sedan than just being something you see young couples driving around.

I had to drive a rental a few weeks ago (2012 Ford Focus) and was dying to get my car back from the shop. It felt so automated as if it were driving me around. And too many buttons and whatnot that were too distracting for the interstate. I did get a good laugh from the torque converter though...

Did you play around with the color-changing mood lighting? That was definitely the best part of driving the rental one I was in a few months back.

It's good to see you back 'round these parts! :)

[LTSmash]

Did you play around with the color-changing mood lighting? That was definitely the best part of driving the rental one I was in a few months back.

It's good to see you back 'round these parts! :)

I had no idea there were color-changing mood lights. The settings must have been between the 20 satnav buttons and the Sirius presets. Perhaps if I set it too a calming blue hue I wouldn't have felt like ripping the steering wheel off its column.

And thank you. I think my hiatus was long enough.

[Kitdy]

"40 years" ....... :) .... less cerveza por favour :)

That's not Catalan!

[Ferrer]

"40 years" ....... :) .... less cerveza por favour :)
Well, I was thinking, that's payback from the sportscar camp for what the Golf GTI did back in 1976. It's now 37 years old, so I guess 40 was close enough... :p

That's not Catalan!
Indeed.

And as a result I couldn't understand anything.

[Ferrer]

I was a bit nostalgic when the Ford Crown Victoria went away too. But that's mostly because police cars will become more varied and spotting them from afar becomes more difficult. :D

All joking aside, I see the merits of a cheap RWD sedan- perhaps not with as large an engine- maybe a straight 6 would be nice, but what's wrong with experimenting? The last time North America got a 4 cylinder RWD sedan was probably over 20 years ago with the Mercedes 190 E or the BMW 3 series. Of course, in Europe there are smaller displacement/cylinder options, but I'd like to see that come back too.

We need RWD sedans!


Couldn't agree more with this. Perhaps it would give more appeal to the cheaper sedan than just being something you see young couples driving around.

I had to drive a rental a few weeks ago (2012 Ford Focus) and was dying to get my car back from the shop. It felt so automated as if it were driving me around. And too many buttons and whatnot that were too distracting for the interstate. I did get a good laugh from the torque converter though...
The problem is that those 4 cylinder engined, rear wheel drive sports saloons aren't actually that cheap. In fact the US wins in this case, clearly. The Charger is cheaper and has a bigger engine, and then you have the quintessential 2 door saloons with big engines: the pony cars; which somewhat have manages to survive into the 21st century.

Rear wheel drive for affordable, practical cars is dying breed unfortunately.

[NSXType-R]

Couldn't agree more with this. Perhaps it would give more appeal to the cheaper sedan than just being something you see young couples driving around.

I had to drive a rental a few weeks ago (2012 Ford Focus) and was dying to get my car back from the shop. It felt so automated as if it were driving me around. And too many buttons and whatnot that were too distracting for the interstate. I did get a good laugh from the torque converter though...

Yes, I agree! That's another problem I see! People are already distracted in their cars with just their phones- do I need to connect to the internet and have apps on my car as well? The Ford SYNC system is particularly egregious.

Another issue I see with cars is with touchscreens taking over normal operations. I want buttons goddamnit! Touchscreens make you take your eyes off the road because that screen could be anything.

Change for the sake of change is not always the best.

Just curious, what car do you drive again? I'm getting a Mustang vibe for some odd reason...


The problem is that those 4 cylinder engined, rear wheel drive sports saloons aren't actually that cheap. In fact the US wins in this case, clearly. The Charger is cheaper and has a bigger engine, and then you have the quintessential 2 door saloons with big engines: the pony cars; which somewhat have manages to survive into the 21st century.

Rear wheel drive for affordable, practical cars is dying breed unfortunately.

I don't think the Charger you can get with a manual, most certainly not with the biggest engine. The Challenger is way too big.

I want a 4 door GT86/BR-Z. Preferably as a hatchback. Is that too much to ask? :D

If Toyota made one and called it the Corolla, that'd be pretty awesome. It's a shame that the Corolla has been FWD for over 20 years, there are a whole generation of people that don't even know the Corolla was a pretty sporting vehicle.

But going back to RWD sedans, that's also why I have a particular fondness for 1st generation IS300s. It was one of the few sedans that came with a straight 6 powering the rear wheels that wasn't a BMW.

[Ferrer]

Another issue I see with cars is with touchscreens taking over normal operations. I want buttons goddamnit! Touchscreens make you take your eyes off the road because that screen could be anything.

A myriad of buttons can be dangerous too, especially if they are too small, are too far away or there are too many to remember what they all do.

I don't think the Charger you can get with a manual, most certainly not with the biggest engine. The Challenger is way too big.

I want a 4 door GT86/BR-Z. Preferably as a hatchback. Is that too much to ask? :D

If Toyota made one and called it the Corolla, that'd be pretty awesome. It's a shame that the Corolla has been FWD for over 20 years, there are a whole generation of people that don't even know the Corolla was a pretty sporting vehicle.

But going back to RWD sedans, that's also why I have a particular fondness for 1st generation IS300s. It was one of the few sedans that came with a straight 6 powering the rear wheels that wasn't a BMW.
You are right, there's no manual Charger and it probably does not handle as well as a C-Class Merc (nevermind the 3 Series, to win customers back from Audi, BMW has decided to ruin the handling of all of their cars). So four cylinder C-Class it is, altough it still doesn't come cheap. It starts at 33 thousand €.

The four door GT86/BRZ you mentioned earlier is gone forever. There was a time when rear wheel drive was bread and butter but not any more. Those days are gone and next are normally aspirated engines, manual gearbox... and in the end we will all be driving Leafs...

Time to go and buy a GT86/BRZ then! ;)

[Matra et Alpine]

Another issue I see with cars is with touchscreens taking over normal operations. I want buttons goddamnit! Touchscreens make you take your eyes off the road because that screen could be anything.
Same is true of buttons in any car till you get used to them :(

Touch screens are interim.

Expect gestures to do the job :) Or Siri in the new iCar as Apple post Jobs decide to diversify !!!!

[jcp123]

I find the state of the car quite pathetic at the moment.

The global recession we are so tired of hearing about has prompted a competitive fervour amongst companies trying to gain a competitive edge. Thus, the feature content of more plebian automobiles has approached that of the premium marques.

The premium marques have thus found themselves in a conundrum of being much less able to compete on feature content. Why spend then extre 8K euros on an Audi when for less money you could have a VW with the same feature content and the same, if not better, driving dynamics than its more expensive brother?

On the plus side, the same pressure for innovation has brought some good new models to market. The demand for smaller cars is seeing much smarter use of space and some cars which carry the same cargo and passenger count in a yet smaller package than ever before, with the attendant better FE of a more compact, lighter-weight package.

In all the auto industry has seen a more vibrant place for day-to-day cars and a tougher place for premium marques to compete.

And that's not even counting the styling abuses taking place...

[Kitdy]

Driving in the R Class shuttle every day has made me realize how maddening most luxury features are. About the extent of luxury I would want in a car would be blue tooth phone connectivity, heated and cooled seats, and a semirational system to select music/podcasts from said phone.

I do not want a 8.7 inch screen. It is massively distracting. GPS if needed (which I don't like using) can be done via phone. 2 cupholders will do. A good auto/manual/DSG is sufficient (depending on application), along with a manual handbrake. I'd much rather have excellent seats and interior materials than any kind of electronic infotainment, lane departure, digital screens, etc, etc.

[jcp123]

Driving in the R Class shuttle every day has made me realize how maddening most luxury features are. About the extent of luxury I would want in a car would be blue tooth phone connectivity, heated and cooled seats, and a semirational system to select music/podcasts from said phone.

I do not want a 8.7 inch screen. It is massively distracting. GPS if needed (which I don't like using) can be done via phone. 2 cupholders will do. A good auto/manual/DSG is sufficient (depending on application), along with a manual handbrake. I'd much rather have excellent seats and interior materials than any kind of electronic infotainment, lane departure, digital screens, etc, etc.

You kind of sound like the first stages of where I have been for a decade. Nevermind the gadgets, let's get the basics right before we explore the edges of the galaxy.

[Kitdy]

You kind of sound like the first stages of where I have been for a decade. Nevermind the gadgets, let's get the basics right before we explore the edges of the galaxy.

It's been a long time brewing, but I have not actually had much interaction wich such sophisto cars before. The 3 cars I have driven most are now a 1993 Plymouth Voyager, 2007 City Golf (MkIV Canadian only), and this Bluetec refreshed R.

It is one thing to feel this way and read about it, it is another to experience the crap firsthand. I have also been more increasingly drawn to regaining my focus lost likely to internet related ADD. Focus - not multitasking - yields impressive results.

[jcp123]

Focus - not multitasking - yields impressive results.

Something I have been saying for years. Focus on a market segment, get good at it, and you will prosper.

[Ferrer]

I find the state of the car quite pathetic at the moment.

The global recession we are so tired of hearing about has prompted a competitive fervour amongst companies trying to gain a competitive edge. Thus, the feature content of more plebian automobiles has approached that of the premium marques.

The premium marques have thus found themselves in a conundrum of being much less able to compete on feature content. Why spend then extre 8K euros on an Audi when for less money you could have a VW with the same feature content and the same, if not better, driving dynamics than its more expensive brother?
It's actually the other way round, premium brand are descending into segments they had never bothered to compete before and therefore are eating into the traditional generalist manufacturers strangeholds...

The rarionale goes like this, if I can have prestigious badge in my bonnet/key, I might be inclined to spend a little be more for a small hatchback, reather have a bread and butter car even if it brings me better value for money.

[jcp123]

I don't disagree with that. Either way though, I think the value and premium segments have been brough tinto competition with each other in ways they have not been before

[Kitdy]

When I was referring to focus vs multitasking, I was thinking about that on an individual level. Driver and car. Person and cell phone. Friends at a table with iPhones. The TV and computer on at the same time.