are there any cars that can match up?

[guyt_x]

Are there any american cars that can go engine size for engine size and still come out on top ?

example: Say the BMW M5 engine = 4941 cc / 301.5 cu in
Top Speed = 249.4 kph / 155.0 mph (limited)
0 - 60 mph = 4.8 seconds

unlimited it does 320kph thats without mods still standard just take the limiter off.

and this is just saloon 4 door family car.

can a silly goose american car beat that (normally aspirated)?

and please we are talkig about engine size!!!!!

[crisis]

You cant compare cars purely on engine size. You have to take into account weight among other things as well as comparative cost. Otherwise compare all 2lt 4 cylinder cars. One car will win on outright speed, one on acceleration, one on handling etc. If your tyring to point out that the BMW M5 is a great car we know already.

[guyt_x]

Im just sick of stupid people trying to compare some crappy yank car which has an engine capacity of let say 6 or 7 litre and comparing it to a jap or german car with a capacity of about 3 to 4 litres that wips its ass.

I was just using the M5 as an EXAMPLE!!!!

silly goose

I was just trying to show how crap american cars are

and you have just proved how dumb there people are

[motorhead]

american cars are very heavy as compared to their german or any other country's counterparts

[guyt_x]

americans cars just dont get the job done like other countries do

[ChevySucks]

If you are gonna talk crap about American Muscle get outta herre, nobody wants to hear dat in herre, this is a thread for people who like American muscle, not idiots like you, you need to shut up about how American cars suck, they can kick any other countries ass in anything...

[BPx]

Originally posted by guyt_x
Are there any american cars that can go engine size for engine size and still come out on top ?

example: Say the BMW M5 engine = 4941 cc / 301.5 cu in
Top Speed = 249.4 kph / 155.0 mph (limited)
0 - 60 mph = 4.8 seconds

unlimited it does 320kph thats without mods still standard just take the limiter off.

and this is just saloon 4 door family car.

can a silly goose american car beat that (normally aspirated)?

and please we are talkig about engine size!!!!!

Your lack of experience is showing. You assume that displacement = engine SIZE. Sorry, size is based on more than just displacement. Considering America doesn't really build anything to compete with the M5, you're going to have a hard time finding anything to beat it. Same could be said for the Corvette, there's just about nothing that performs as well for the price. Don't spread your igorance through here, I thought this place was supposed to be better than supercars.net.

[ChevySucks]

I got a car that will kick that M5's ass, 2003 Mustang Cobra, nuttin but 280 cubic inches of raw American power. 0-60 in 4.3, 1/4 mile in 12.7, top speed of 170 miles per hour. If i do recall dats faster than that pile of shit M5, and its a smaller engine cubic inch wise, and and, its cheaper!So dont give me dat shit bout American cars not being able to compete.

[Nash]

Originally posted by ChevySucks
I got a car that will kick that M5's ass, 2003 Mustang Cobra, nuttin but 280 cubic inches of raw American power. 0-60 in 4.3, 1/4 mile in 12.7, top speed of 170 miles per hour. If i do recall dats faster than that pile of shit M5, and its a smaller engine cubic inch wise, and and, its cheaper!So dont give me dat shit bout American cars not being able to compete.

That's the worst comparsion ever.

[ChevySucks]

You dont have to tell me its a bad comparison i know, its retard up therre ^ who said to compare "engine size to engine size" and thats a pretty good comparison talkin engine size, 280ci to 300ci. I know dats not how cars should be compared but if dats how he wants it, aight, theres something with a smaller engine size wise and will still stomp its ass.

[Nash]

You can't compare a sedan to a sports coupe.

Might as well compare the E55 AMG to your Cobra.

0-60mph in 4.3sec
1/4 in 12.5 sec

[ChevySucks]

Im not the one who wanted to compare only engine sizes herre, it was guy t x up there ^, he said engine size to engine size, i know its not right to compare a sports coupe and a sedan. He apparently doesnt.

[Rob]

Originally posted by Nash
You can't compare a sedan to a sports coupe.

Might as well compare the E55 AMG to your Cobra.

0-60mph in 4.3sec
1/4 in 12.5 sec

But even when you compare the Cobra to a sportscoupe like for example an 911 turbo or a GT2 it's still bullshit. The porsche will beat the cobra, but it also costs a lott more.

[motorhead]

REALIABILITY????

[ChevySucks]

Hey guytx where are you at, why dont you check yer thread and see dat it back fired on you, or did you already see it and then go cry because a car was found that would beat it and cost less and had a smaller engine? Come on herre and explain to us dat you have no idea what yer talkin about...

[Nash]

Originally posted by Rob
But even when you compare the Cobra to a sportscoupe like for example an 911 turbo or a GT2 it's still bullshit. The porsche will beat the cobra, but it also costs a lott more.

Obviously, the price difference is too much. The Cobra R, or the Z06 can take on the 911 Turbo almost less than half the cost of a 911 Turbo.

[guyt_x]

does this 2003 Mustang Cobra come with a steering wheel?

cos american cars still cant handle worth shit.

and i dont know where you pulled those stats from but if those stats are correct then your "2003 Mustang Cobra" is the best car in the world.

but its not cos its a silly goose american car.

and the car is only cheap cos american screw over small countries
for cheap raw matarials.

[Kudosdude]

Yes, the C5R can't handle; it never wins anything either

sheesh

(For those that didn't realise the above was sarcasm)

[motorhead]

Originally posted by Kudosdude
Yes, the C5R can't handle; it never wins anything either

sheesh

(For those that didn't realise the above was sarcasm) have you driven one???

[motorhead]

well if youre comparing it to the r8 obviously its not as good

[ChevySucks]

Yes all those stats are correct, and the cobra jus happens to be one of the best handleing cars there is. And it is because it is American made, nuttin but raw American Muscle. Guess yer lil thread didnt work there did it?!?!

[BPx]

Originally posted by guyt_x
does this 2003 Mustang Cobra come with a steering wheel?

cos american cars still cant handle worth shit.

and i dont know where you pulled those stats from but if those stats are correct then your "2003 Mustang Cobra" is the best car in the world.

but its not cos its a silly goose american car.

and the car is only cheap cos american screw over small countries
for cheap raw matarials.

How old are you, 14? You're so biased that you aren't even posting anything worth replying to.

[ChevySucks]

Thank you for noticing what i did, but im 15 so don't be cuttin on young kids lol

[BPx]

Originally posted by ChevySucks
Thank you for noticing what i did, but im 15 so don't be cuttin on young kids lol

Heh, sorry. His posts are just so ignorant I figured he was too young to have experience with cars. I'm not trying to insult everyone who's younger, because, like you, there are some people that are intelligent.

[MKielbasa]

This kid needs to get rid of his hangups and realize that HP/L means NOTHING. Never has, never will.
He'll grow up some day when he actually learns a littlle about how engines work.

I bet he doesn't even know the difference between torque and horsepower. If he did, I'm sure he would understand why BOTH are needed to make a good engine.

[ChevySucks]

Thanks for everyone who is agreeing and making valid points herre, people who dont know what they are saying dont need to be starting threads..

[guyt_x]

all engine size and no brains have you ever driven or driven in an non american car ?

[ChevySucks]

I've driven an plenty of American made cars, driven a honda, a volkswagon, a mercedes, and i still say American made is the best.

[ChevySucks]

Guytx you are the one who is close minded, you hate American cars with a passion. You jus need to be quiet now..

[BPx]

Originally posted by guyt_x
all engine size and no brains have you ever driven or driven in an non american car ?

Look at the title for this-- "you people are so close minded" --- HAHAHAHAHHA, look at the BS this guy comes up with and then says something as stupid as that. You're great for a laugh, kid.

[motorhead]

i only don't like american interiors(no class, no built quality and BORING) - except for cadillac

[BPx]

Originally posted by motorhead
i only don't like american interiors(no class, no built quality and BORING) - except for cadillac

GM is trying to change that a bit... What do you think of the interior in the new Grand Prix? I think that's one of the nicest things GM has put out in a long time.

[guyt_x]

and your point is ?

bet you have a mullet and your name is billy-ray

[motorhead]

Originally posted by BPx
GM is trying to change that a bit... What do you think of the interior in the new Grand Prix? I think that's one of the nicest things GM has put out in a long time. yeah but i don't really see the significance just as yet - its still like those old vipers which cost a bomb but give nothng to the interiors - like the vette like the cobra and many of the high end american super coupe - the sedans are doing better but its still not on par with german or japanese cars - only cadillac at the moment - we have to wait and see how long General Motors is gonna take

[guyt_x]

dont forget slow

[MKielbasa]

Originally posted by motorhead
yeah but i don't really see the significance just as yet - its still like those old vipers which cost a bomb but give nothng to the interiors - like the vette like the cobra and many of the high end american super coupe - the sedans are doing better but its still not on par with german or japanese cars - only cadillac at the moment - we have to wait and see how long General Motors is gonna take

One of the largest problems GM has to face first is the percieved lack in quality. Their interiors are actually good quality, as are the rest of the vehicle, but they are often uninspired and so seem cheap.

[ChevySucks]

What are you like 5? shut up already, no boy wants to hear yer gay ass coments anymore.

[motorhead]

Originally posted by MKielbasa
One of the largest problems GM has to face first is the percieved lack in quality. Their interiors are actually good quality, as are the rest of the vehicle, but they are often uninspired and so seem cheap. no - but its not as good as german or japanese cars - its good to americans yes but not to the world - but i love american cars i have to say - work on their interiors and they will be good

[Nildo]

How can somebody claim american made is best when they have only driven cars either made in america, or cars designed for the american market? And why is a 15 year old driving anything? And calling people gay-ass?
Just silly if you ask me...
Oh, yeah, american interiors aren't up to scratch either on the world stage, which is a shame.

[guyt_x]

with the subaru as an example

The rest of the world gets the 2.0 litre STi which is amazing.

but for the american market which have the mind set that if its no big motor its not coolor fast or what ever you hill billies believe.

so what they have to give the yanks a 2.5 litre just so they will buy it.

[motorhead]

Originally posted by Nildo
How can somebody claim american made is best when they have only driven cars either made in america, or cars designed for the american market? And why is a 15 year old driving anything? And calling people gay-ass?
Just silly if you ask me...
Oh, yeah, american interiors aren't up to scratch either on the world stage, which is a shame. finally someone with good sense

[ChevySucks]

Anyone that hasnt ever driven before they were 16 is just an idiot, i may have driven more than a usual 15 yr old but still everyone should have some practice before they are 16. And i can call anyone gay ass i want too,

[Nildo]

Chev, unfortunately you saying you are proud to be an american reflects very badly on the other 260 million odd US citizens. I dont believe they would be proud of you! How does calling somebody a gay-ass prove american cars are best? Or that you even have anything worthwhile to say?

I saw yesterday as an prize in a raffle a car that really backed up a lot of the arguments on this page. A ford f250 pick up. have you guys seen the size of this thing?! It looks just right for a small team of construction workers, but US citizens use it for every day transport. Totally wasteful. And as motorhead suggests, a crap interior.

[guyt_x]

they have to be big for the ego's

[BPx]

Originally posted by Nildo
Chev, unfortunately you saying you are proud to be an american reflects very badly on the other 260 million odd US citizens. I dont believe they would be proud of you! How does calling somebody a gay-ass prove american cars are best? Or that you even have anything worthwhile to say?

I saw yesterday as an prize in a raffle a car that really backed up a lot of the arguments on this page. A ford f250 pick up. have you guys seen the size of this thing?! It looks just right for a small team of construction workers, but US citizens use it for every day transport. Totally wasteful. And as motorhead suggests, a crap interior.

Unfortunately, resorting to name-calling seems to be the only way to deal with the 13 year olds that start these threads that have no basis. I don't see you going after guyt_x for bringing up such stupid points, and yet you have no problem giving ChevySucks a hard time for what he says. Let's not try to be TOO biased now.

Funny thing about interiors... I've noticed that when people criticisize them (not even talking about just American ones here), asking them why it's so "bad" usually results in a blank stare. I doubt any people here will be able to give any hard proof why the interior of any other car is so much better than an American car or vice versa.

[guyt_x]

cars are normally crap cos they are american.

but yes I have heard the interioirs of the american tanks arnt up to scratch.

but then there power out put isnt either for all those cubic inches.

oh and there handling isnt good either,

the only good thing about them is they are in america and not any where else.

[BPx]

Originally posted by guyt_x
cars are normally crap cos they are american.

but yes I have heard the interioirs of the american tanks arnt up to scratch.

but then there power out put isnt either for all those cubic inches.

oh and there handling isnt good either,

the only good thing about them is they are in america and not any where else.

Heh, once you hit 15 or 16, stop watching Fast and the Furious and go out into a garage and learn a little bit about cars.

[guyt_x]

besides not saying anything usefull um why are u referring to me as 15?


two last questions:

#1 do u have licence ?

#2 did your mother drop you ?

[BPx]

Originally posted by guyt_x
besides not saying anything usefull um why are u referring to me as 15?


two last questions:

#1 do u have licence ?

#2 did your mother drop you ?

I never referred to you as 15. I'm assuming you are much younger. Of course I have a license, I have a car, which is posted on these forums. I'm pretty sure I wasn't dropped. If I had been, I'd probably be posting the same non-sensical drivel as you.

[Kudosdude]

Let's keep it friendly here fellas. Please.

[guyt_x]

put some info up
so i know where u r from

[fastbird94]

Originally posted by guyt_x
Im just sick of stupid people trying to compare some crappy yank car which has an engine capacity of let say 6 or 7 litre and comparing it to a jap or german car with a capacity of about 3 to 4 litres that wips its ass.

I was just using the M5 as an EXAMPLE!!!!

silly goose

I was just trying to show how crap american cars are

and you have just proved how dumb there people are

WE're getting sick of your shit, stop TRYING to diss american cars, you dont even know what your talking about, your comparing apples to oranges. I've only been browsing this site for a couple minutes and can already see that your an idiot.

[MKielbasa]

fastbird, that guy is the main reason I even joined here, I couldn't believe this stupid bullshit he was spewing.

[guyt_x]

you drive some 4 ton piece of crap with a "VEE Eight"
and you have a mullet hair style
and you name is billy - ray or bob or something silly

[fastbird94]

Originally posted by guyt_x
you drive some 4 ton piece of crap with a "VEE Eight"
and you have a mullet hair style
and you name is billy - ray or bob or something silly


10 *bucks says *(you spelt bucks wrong before) that you drive a rice burner civic with a no-mods 4 cylinder that has got his ass kicked various times from 6 and 8 cylinder cars. You have no girlfriend, no life, and a car thats worth taking to the dump.

[Innotech]

Originally posted by Nildo
Chev, unfortunately you saying you are proud to be an american reflects very badly on the other 260 million odd US citizens. I dont believe they would be proud of you! How does calling somebody a gay-ass prove american cars are best? Or that you even have anything worthwhile to say?

I saw yesterday as an prize in a raffle a car that really backed up a lot of the arguments on this page. A ford f250 pick up. have you guys seen the size of this thing?! It looks just right for a small team of construction workers, but US citizens use it for every day transport. Totally wasteful. And as motorhead suggests, a crap interior.

Rolls royce, Bentley arnage, or Maybach isnt wasteful? F250 has a utilitarian purpose rather than to coddle a couple occupants in complete luxury. so which of these 2 large vehicles is more usefull and less wasteful? the truck.
US citizens many times haul stuff in pickup trucks, there really isnt a more utilitarian vehicle out there for personal use than a pickup truck. For example, Our family has a pickup for my dads work related travels, in which oftentimes huge steel molds are placed back there, or welding machines, al ot of large objects that end up needing to be moved. Its great for trips, where all the luggage is sealed into 4 large plastic boxes in back, and theres room for 5 people in the pickup itself. We also have an SUV, which my mother uses to constantly haul my brother and his friends everywhere. Its smaller than a minivan and we dont really need the extra row of seats. Finally I have a Jeep Cherokee for myself which is small but powerful and it has plenty of space in back for my supplies. and enough seats for my friends to ride every now and then. All these vehicles may seem wasteful but they all have a purpose in our family and we use them accordingly.

[blazinjohny]

http://speed.supercars.net/Board?viewThread=true&fID=4&tID=65477&bottom=0

You guys really love your interiors eh?

[BPx]

Originally posted by blazinjohny
http://speed.supercars.net/Board?viewThread=true&fID=4&tID=65477&bottom=0

You guys really love your interiors eh?

I'm surprised how many people came over here because I posted that. I wonder if guyt_x will join sc.net and try doing the same stuff over there.

[blazinjohny]

Hope so! He can brag about his POS Honda.

[fastbird94]

LOL. He can try that too and everyone will still argue against him!

[guyt_x]

whats this sc.net

where must i go ?

tell me

[Guibo]

Hey, guys. You don't want this seeping into other forums, do you? :D

guyt x:
You need to re-examine the second post in this thread, the one dealing with this issue:
"You have to take into account weight among other things as well as comparative cost."

Comparative cost...why are we comparing $1M no-expense-spared McLaren F1's against $50-80K sports cars? It's like comparing a Viper against a Ford Focus. Interesting? Maybe. Meaningful? Probably not. Another way to think of this is comparing apples to oranges...and trying to come to some rational conclusion as to which is "better."

In examining American pushrod engines, you have to understand the differences in culture between the US and European/Japanes cultures. The differences in the landscape. The differences in the types of roads. And yes, the historical differences in fuel costs. It seems you have not thought about this one bit.

Here's something else for you to consider: at 120 hp/l, the Honda S2000 has one of, if not the, highest specific outputs of any naturally aspirated stock production road car. It beats the McLaren F1's specific output. It beats the specific output of the Ferrari Enzo, which not only has 3 years additional development time over the S2000, it has a revolutionary new variable valve timing system beyond the S2000's. Does this mean the Honda engineers have outwitted the finest from BMW and Ferrari? By your reasoning, it must seem so.

On the issue of Lamborghini and Viper, Lamborghini did indeed take a prototype engine from Chrysler, basically 2 truck engines siamesed together. But not even Lamborghini (which had some Formula One experience at the time) could make the engine both powerful AND reliable. As a result, Dodge had to pretty much re-engineer the scraps they got back from Lambo.

Regarding American cars handling like crap, take a look at the test results below. Remember, it's the ill-handling American car that has the heavy-ass V8 up in its nose. These are cornering segments only. Judging by the Z06's entry and exit speeds, it should pretty much beat all of these cars on the overall course.

[Guibo]

hairpin

[Guibo]

transition

[guyt_x]

5665 cc / 345.7 cu in

is enough to get a good speed up into the corner

well done

you are putting this engine up agaisnt 2.0 litres and 3.0 litres

very impressive logic

Z06's entry and exit speeds are only obtained because it have a fricking huge motor.

it never does anything great in the corners.

for a big engine car thats pretty sad
its closest rivals in the engine department are:

360 modena: 3586 cc / 218.8 cu in
M3: 3246 cc / 198.1 cu in
911 turbo: 3600 cc / 219.7 cu in

thanks for the no brainer

[Rob]

you're the one without a brain guytx, the corvette is a good handeling car, it's not the best in the list, but it's for sure not the worst either. What does it matter it has a big engine, if that makes the car fast without being the haviest of the 8.

[fastbird94]

Originally posted by guyt_x
5665 cc / 345.7 cu in

is enough to get a good speed up into the corner

well done

you are putting this engine up agaisnt 2.0 litres and 3.0 litres

very impressive logic

Z06's entry and exit speeds are only obtained because it have a fricking huge motor.

it never does anything great in the corners.

for a big engine car thats pretty sad
its closest rivals in the engine department are:

360 modena: 3586 cc / 218.8 cu in
M3: 3246 cc / 198.1 cu in
911 turbo: 3600 cc / 219.7 cu in

thanks for the no brainer


Quit comparing $50-$80 cars to $1 million dollar cars. They're in totally different categories.

So what if it has a "fricken" huge motor? weighs the same as you 4 cylinders and is beating them in the long runs. That car also handles extremely well. Go to motortrend.ca and read the reviews.

[Guibo]

guyt x:
Is that the best you can do? No answer to the S2000/McLaren F1 conundrum?

My comment about corner entry and exit speeds was just a minor point, yet you're making it a big deal. Fine, if you want to take it further, think of it this way: the Corvette's engine is "huge" (actually, dimensionally, it's probably no larger than the Turbo's engine with all associated hardware, and actually undercuts the Turbo's engine by about 100 lbs), but the Ferrari, BMW and Porsche have:
More valves per cylinder
More valves overall
More cams
Variable Valve Timing/Variable Intake
(and in the case of the Porsche) a turbo

Oh dear. That displacement "advantage" is starting to look rather tenuous, wouldn't you say?

Now, you say the Corvette is lousy in the corners, but the numbers tell otherwise. Add up the total segment times and you get:
1) 360 Modena: 20.672
2) Z06: 20.802
3) Turbo: 21.191
4) Lotus Elise: 21.200
5) Evo VII: 21.208
6) Boxster S: 21.614
7) M3: 21.805
8) MP3: 22.918

If the Corvette can't do anything in the corners, then what would you say about the Turbo and Elise and Evo VII? Just look at the apex speeds. While it's not Elise caliber, it's still above what the M3, Boxster S, and Turbo can manage. By your logic, these cars must have pretty crappy handling. Can't even take a Corvette!
And if you have crappy handling in the corners, guess what. Your corner exit speed is liable to be crappy as well.

[Nildo]

Love yer work Guibo. Can't argue FACTS. I actually don't really like american cars (in general), but stating 'american cars are crap.....because they are american cars' is ridiculous! Proof such as you provided brings an intelligent viewpoint to this debate.
In response to innotechs.....response.....
Yes I entirely agree that the maybach is wasteful, but this page is discussing american vehicles, right? Besides, you miss the point that the maybach contributes to it's considerable bulk by providing passengers with levels of supreme opulence, and a status trip, neither is provided by the F 250.
Good for you if your family doesn't waste our planets resources on these things, but there are many in the US that do, which was my point. Please don't take it as a personal insult,

[guyt_x]

why do american cars need all that displacement?

those speeds mean nothing due to that fact that the Z06 has alot more low end grunt due to its larger engine.

so what ever its handleling, its times will be masked by its torgue.

if its engine was say a 3.0 it would be a differnt story
but alas americans cant make big power from small engines

so we will never know.

[guyt_x]

I think the s2000 has great engine.

its just funny how the mclaren is still holding the record to this day from 1985.......

and another thing american cars are really cheap in america to get people to buy them other wise they would be left behind by the other car manufacturers.

in south africa it cheaper to get a ferrari or lambo than it is to import a US viper or what ever.

[Guibo]

"why do american cars need all that displacement?"

You still don't get it, do you? It's not a matter of NEEDING. It's simply a matter of wanting. Why would Ferrari "need" a V12 in its 575M, when a highly-strung V10 or twin-turbo'ed V8 can deliver just as much horsepower? Why would Porsche's '03 GT3 "need" 3.6 liters to produce 381 hp? It should only "need" 3.2 liters, going by what Honda has wrung from its S2000.


"those speeds mean nothing due to that fact that the Z06 has alot more low end grunt due to its larger engine."

According to you, more low end grunt due to its larger engine = a *bad* thing? LOL, nice. By your theory, the Lotus Elise's awesome apex speeds must be due to the low end grunt afforded by its huge engine, eh?
Some more numbers for you to consider:
996TT: 413 lb/ft @ 2700 rpm
Z06: 400 lb/ft @ 4800 rpm
Your theory would have the Turbo beating the pants off the Z06 in the corners. It not only has a higher peak torque number, it makes it further down low in its rev range. Yet the reality is that the Turbo gets beaten by the Z06 in apex speeds. Hmmm...?


"so what ever its handleling, its times will be masked by its torgue."

Are you saying a Bentley Arnage T will beat all of these cars in a handling test? It has 645 lb/ft of torque, at 3250 rpm.


McLaren and 1985...What are you talking about? You totally side-stepped my question altogether. Try again. The question is not "Do you think the S2000 has a great engine?" The question is: "How do you explain that the S2000's hp/l is higher than that of not only the McLaren F1, but higher than that of the new Enzo as well?"

[guyt_x]

fact: you are stupid.

stop getting yourself mixed up, an engine with a larger capicity is always going to have an advantage.

please compare cars with relatively the same displacement.

k thanks by

[Guibo]

guyt x hereby declares the Arnage T is the best-handling car. 'Nuff said.

[Nildo]

The Ferrari 575 MGT 'needed' the capacity because it is a large heavy vehicle, and a large capacity motor (atmospheric compression) has better throttle response than a forced induction motor. Ferrari has stated they will never again supercharge, and will unlikely turbocharge as the off boost efficiency is not acceptable.
Ferrari also went for a 12 over a V10 because ferrari favours very oversquare (more bore than stroke) engine configs. This leads to better performance at higher revs, but less torque earlier on in the rev range.
If Hp/l did matter (just pretend for a minute) then corvette could have produced a motor like the 575. Similar capacity, but one features 12 cylinders and quad cam. And about 110 bhp more....

[xeroxed]

omfg i had to register here just to throw up one point youve all been missing. guy tx your a jackass for thinking american cars need to have huge engines to make power.

dodge neon srt-4 has a 2.4 litre turbo engine making 215 hp

general motors had this little 4 cylinder non turbo charged called a tech 4 that was carbeurated not sure if they still make them but they had 190 hp chevy also plans on dropping a 240 hp turbo motor in there cavaliers.

ford has there 2300 4 cylinder that had about 200 and its capable of making 500 hp with the right mods and no turbos.

so as far as your claims go that american cars need big motors to make power you need to do some homework and i dont mean watch 2 fast 2 furious its a movie get over it .

[BPx]

Originally posted by guyt_x
fact: you are stupid.

stop getting yourself mixed up, an engine with a larger capicity is always going to have an advantage.

please compare cars with relatively the same displacement.

k thanks by

How is he stupid? You're saying that these big American cars can't handle or do anything, and you just got told. Now you're trying to say that because they use big engines, they have an advantage over everything. So I guess that makes American cars the best, eh? You're the one who's saying it. In your mind the only way cars can compete is if they have the same displacement, what's wrong with other companies then, why can't they make a larger displacement engine? Get over this displacement garbage, if you haven't noticed over the years, companies like Porsche, BMW, and Ferrari have INCREASED their engine displacements to make more powerful engines.

[guyt_x]

good point

[Nicademus]

this whole discussion is sad. let it go and agree to disagree

[Jay 02 TA ws6]

Originally posted by guyt_x
does this 2003 Mustang Cobra come with a steering wheel?

cos american cars still cant handle worth shit.

and i dont know where you pulled those stats from but if those stats are correct then your "2003 Mustang Cobra" is the best car in the world.

but its not cos its a silly goose american car.

and the car is only cheap cos american screw over small countries
for cheap raw matarials.

Holy shit! I was going to read all the way thorugh this moronic thread so that I would know the most current topic of debate. Maybe this guy has already gotten smacked down for that comment, but I just have to reply instantly when I read something THAT stupid.

Those numbers are legit. The 2003 Ford Mustang SVT Cobra accelerates 0-60 around 4.5 seconds, and can finish the 1/4 mile around 12.5. It's legit... it's been proven... over and over. It also comes with an independent rear suspension (and yes a steering wheel) and pulls well over .9 g's on the skidpad. In case you have never heard of a skidpad -- that means the car handles VERY well. It has a 4.6 L, (281 Cubic inches) V8 that thorws out 390 horsepower, and 390 ft-lbs of torque (and that is underrated). This car is available for $35,000 US. Believe me, we Americans screwed over as many small countries as we could so that the price could be that low... I mean, that's our main political objective... make a cheap Mustang.

Apparently, as you said it yourself, the 2003 Mustang Cobra is "the best car in the world."

By the way... "silly goose" is not a good cut-down. It's stupid, it is something 1st graders say. Come up with something clever and stop making yourself look like an absoute retard. (In case you were wondering, "retard" is a better cut-down than "silly-goose").

[Jay 02 TA ws6]

Originally posted by xeroxed
omfg i had to register here just to throw up one point youve all been missing. guy tx your a jackass for thinking american cars need to have huge engines to make power.

dodge neon srt-4 has a 2.4 litre turbo engine making 215 hp

general motors had this little 4 cylinder non turbo charged called a tech 4 that was carbeurated not sure if they still make them but they had 190 hp chevy also plans on dropping a 240 hp turbo motor in there cavaliers.

ford has there 2300 4 cylinder that had about 200 and its capable of making 500 hp with the right mods and no turbos.

so as far as your claims go that american cars need big motors to make power you need to do some homework and i dont mean watch 2 fast 2 furious its a movie get over it .

Good point. But also... how does Guy feel about the Corvette Z06 getting better gas mileage than the Honda S2000. Seriously... what does technology do for that car anyway? It's slower, you have to rev it up to 6000 RPM before you go anywhere, it doesn't handle as well, AND it guzzles more gas. But I suppose you could always get your ass handed to you in a race, and then go by the guy screaming "I have more HP per liter!!!!" Boy, would that guy who won the race ever feel like a moron then.

[guyt_x]

you are very nieve to think those american cars come any where close to europoean cars or asian cars.

the most watched motor sport is the world rally championship and formula one. and no american teams race.

what a pity you "silly goose's" dont have the balls to step up the challenge.

and as for the crappy mustang

well the new Subaru STi VII gets about 0-100kph in 4.6secs(with crappy emmission restrictions) and thats from a 2 litre motor.

Subaru = 2.0L 4.6sec
Mustang = 4.6L 4.5sec

hmmm and the diference is ?

2.6 litres ... thats like another car.. hell thats a skyline motor.

but like Ive said america can afford to waste engine space because all your cars are subsidized, so people will buy them.

when american cars start showing there stuff in rally or in formula one then you can try make claims of how great your cars are.

but for right now just accept the fact that a whole lot of countries are doing it better than you ...much better.

if you make up the rules you are always gonna win.

[jadotch]

Guytx you keep stating that the larger engines have more low end grunt.

Also lets compare 2 similar cars going for the same piece of market share

Lets compare the Chrysler 300M (The car was in production before the merger) and the Acura RL.

The RL is nearly 2x as much to begin with, lets look at the engine specs though because they are very very similar.

Both 3.5 L, both SOHC

The 300M is getting 250 HP, and 255 lbs of torque
The RL is getting 225 HP and 231 lbs of torque

300M's final drive ratio 3.66
RL'sfinal drive ratio 3.13

and to top it off, the 300M get better gas mileage
the Curb weight is lower on the 300M

anyways if you pick and compare you can get the results you want.

BTW the 300M's interior is very very nice.

http://www.acura.com/models/model_comparison_frm.asp?module=rl

[Jay 02 TA ws6]

Originally posted by guyt_x


... if you make up the rules you are always gonna win.

Well, you seem to have made up the rule that small displacement is the only way to go, and that if you don't have high HP/L then you don't have anything special. See in America, we believe engineering doesn't stop at the engine... it's the whole car. If we get our cars to do 0-60 in 4.5 seconds, that's one hell of an accomplishment - just like it is for any other country when they get their cars to do it. You are very narrow-minded in your view of what makes a car a "good" car. It is simply a different way of accomplishing the same goal. By the way, I will soon be pushing 600+ rwhp, that translates to 706 HP at the crank on my 5.7 liter engine. That equals 124 HP/L. See? American engines are capable of that. As far as Rally or F1 is concerned. America is a capitalistic society - economic survival of the fittest. No one watches F1 racing or Rally racing... no one cares about it here, one damn bit. That is why no American companies give a damn about it. It's a money loser for them! Why would they invest in something they will receive no return from? American TV networks tried to force soccer in to popularity here a couple years ago... now the MLS has some of the worst soccer in the world and has just about faded into oblivion. Face it, we're a different culture... and the majority of Americans don't give a damn about F1 or Rally racing. They hate the "weed-whakcer" sound of small displacement engines. They love the roar of a meaty V8. They love head snapping low-end torque. And when American car makers can come up with an engine that does those things, and goes faster and handles better than most imports, all the while uses LESS GASOLINE... why wouldn't they do it? (By the way, I am talking about the LS6 in the Corvette Z06). It is exactly what their market is looking for.

And as far as "they only sell cars cheap because they are subsidized by the US government"... you had better have proof, because that is the most outlandish bold claim I have ever heard if you don't.

[Jay 02 TA ws6]

Oh by the way... doesn't the Ford Focus compete in Rally racing? I don't know for sure becuase I - along with the majority of other Americans - don't give a damn.

[Nildo]

Jadotch in your comparison of engines you mention an Acura (honda) and a chrysler motor. Just wondering where the Honda engine was designed and built. It has been a long time, as far as I am aware, since honda went for a SOHC motor.

Isn't the multiple of silly goose 'silly geese'?

The fact is, the best and fastest Jap cars don't make it to america for a fair comparison with US vehicles. But I am also sure that the best US cars dont make it to south africa, for Guyt to make an informed choice either.

[guyt_x]

going round in circle with a V8... what is fun about watching that.

I hate saying this but even the the australians have got V8 racing but they use a normal race track...you know LEFT AND RIGHT.

-------------------------------------------
If we get our cars to do 0-60 in 4.5 seconds, that's one hell of an accomplishment
-------------------------------------------
but you people get it out of a huge engine....

with performance cars today:
getting 0-60 in 4.5secs from a motor of FIVE LITRES or more is easy.

patting yourself on the head for getting it from a 5.7litre whatever american car is lame and in fact sad.

[Jay 02 TA ws6]

Originally posted by guyt_x
going round in circle with a V8... what is fun about watching that.

I hate saying this but even the the australians have got V8 racing but they use a normal race track...you know LEFT AND RIGHT.

-------------------------------------------
If we get our cars to do 0-60 in 4.5 seconds, that's one hell of an accomplishment
-------------------------------------------
but you people get it out of a huge engine....

with performance cars today:
getting 0-60 in 4.5secs from a motor of FIVE LITRES or more is easy.

patting yourself on the head for getting it from a 5.7litre whatever american car is lame and in fact sad.

I never complimented NASCAR. It is dumb, although it IS popular. But just so you know, NASCAR does race on road courses as well.

This is the last time I will waste any more of my time responsing to your psychobabble garbage. Life is too precious to waste time arguing with complete morons.

Go take your unfounded bold claims elsewhere... I hear they need a new Foreign Information Minister in Iraq. Why don't you go calim the Americans are "nowhere within 600 miles of Baghdad" right while a tank rolls behind you on camera.

[jadotch]

Originally posted by Nildo
Jadotch in your comparison of engines you mention an Acura (honda) and a chrysler motor. Just wondering where the Honda engine was designed and built. It has been a long time, as far as I am aware, since honda went for a SOHC motor.

Isn't the multiple of silly goose 'silly geese'?

The fact is, the best and fastest Jap cars don't make it to america for a fair comparison with US vehicles. But I am also sure that the best US cars dont make it to south africa, for Guyt to make an informed choice either.

It is in the 2004 model.

I can compare any engine and get the results I want. Lets take Truck engines.

Dodge Hemi Pushrod 2V 5.7L gets 345 HP
Nissian DOHC 4V 5.6L gets 300 HP
Ford Triton SOHC 3V 5.4L gets 300 HP
Toyota DOHC 4V 4.7L gets 240 HP

And the US is capable of producing competive engines.

03 Ford 5.0L "Cammer" 425 HP
03 BMW 5.0L 400 HP

Anyways my point is you can compare anything you want to make a point. And one more thing, smaller engines naturally rev higher than larger engines due to piston weight, friction air flow, ect ect. So like the anti-ryce sites say, if HP/L was the only thing that makes an engine good, we should all take a lesson from R/C model planes which get around 300 HP/L naturally asperated. Only if Honda could do that, then they would be as high tech as a model manufacture.

[Nildo]

Ok that is a really good point. Anybody can compare stats to get the answer they want. As I said, many cars aren't available in all markets. I've never heard of most of the ones you mention.

There is one really small nit I'd like to pick though. When you say a smaller engine can be more efficient due to airflow you are right. But when it comes to piston speed that is more relative to actual capacity per cylinder and bore/stroke ratios. Which is why I can't get the v10 viper motor when a 12 would be inherently more efficient.

[FordMonster]

Gentle frickin Jesus, is this guy retarded?
Ill own you point by point-
The highest tested production street car was a 2000 Ford Mustang Cobra R-.99g's on the skidpad.
American cars have to use big engines to produce power?? The emissions in the US are horrible. Companies detune engines and lower HP claims to lower insurance rates and to pass emissions tests. Thats why the 350 Chevy and the 302 Ford are two of the most successful engines used in their respective communities. Huge aftermarkets. Dodge Neon SRT-4. Turbo I-4, 215 hp., mid 13's in 1/4 mile, not sure about skid pad, but surely in the high .8-low .9 range. The ZO6 doesnt use some kind of huge engine, it uses a 350. Thats a little under 350 CI. It handles .97 in the skid, a mid 12 sec 1/4 mile, and if Im not mistaken, outhanlded a Turbo 911 and a Lotus at Nurumburg. This year, Ford is introducting the new "GT". 500 hp, 500 lb.ft, and im sure a huge skidpad rating. It will wipe the floor in ALMS, Le Mans series, etc.

You are right, there are no American compeitiors in F1. But, there are also no foreign competitors in NASCAR. Altought there are rumors of both series integrating. Anything else???????

Porshce uses forced induction, BMW uses 12 cylinders, Mercedes uses 12 cylinders, American manufactures use a simple method:
There is ABSOLUTLEY NO replacement for displacement.

[guyt_x]

dude who cares when america wins something international then talk

who cares what you can get out of a 7litre motor.

all technology is getting smaller only the american think bigger is better.

its the concept stupid

you give BMW six plus litre engine and they will make that car go so fats it will go back in time. and it will handle un like shitty stupid nascar that GO ROUND IN ****ING CIRCLES.

[BPx]

Originally posted by guyt_x

who cares what you can get out of a 7litre motor.

all technology is getting smaller only the american think bigger is better.

its the concept stupid


Of course technology is getting smaller. So, why are you against small, simple pushrod engines?
But, to the real point, just because most computer equipment is becoming smaller, it doesn't mean that everyone is going to follow. If you had checked over the last few years, displacements in ALL cars (European, American, Japanese) have been INCREASING. Because they want to make MORE power. Yes, technology can allow you to maximize output for a certain displacement (how else to dragsters make 6000hp, or F1 cars get 19,000 redlines). No company is going to reduce their displacement to make the car more powerful. There's no advantage, chances are the block, heads, and just about everything else (minus stroke and cylinder bore) are the SAME. Why not take a few more cc's/ci's and get some added power. You AREN'T increasing weight, you AREN'T affecting the cars handling, you're just getting MORE from an engine that is capable of giving MORE.

And since someone will probably ask this question later on because of my first sentence... I don't think pushrods are the "superior" engine design. But, I see nothing wrong with any company using them if they feel they should. Likewise, I don't complain when a company uses a SOHC or DOHC engine. It's a rather pointless argument since both engines have their advantages and disadvantages, and in the end, they're both pretty close to begin equal.

[BPx]

Originally posted by guyt_x
dude who cares when america wins something international then talk

you give BMW six plus litre engine and they will make that car go so fats it will go back in time. and it will handle un like shitty stupid nascar that GO ROUND IN ****ING CIRCLES.

Separated from the above reply because I know you probably don't read stuff longer than a few sentences.

Is ALMS international?

BMW did make a 6.0L engine, it's in the McLaren F1, right? I'm pretty sure most of those are still in 2003. ;)
Let's not forget that just about any big company can produce a car of the F1's calibur, if they aren't particularly interersted in saving money or the fact that the market for it will be 0.00000000001% of all drivers.
What does NASCAR have to do with this? Are you jealous of it or something, because you keep ripping on it and seem rather miffed.
As for my opinion on racing, it's all pretty damn boring (WRC = exception), about the only racing I find interesting is the stuff I do in Gran Turismo 3.

[Jay 02 TA ws6]

Originally posted by FordMonster
Gentle frickin Jesus, is this guy retarded?
Ill own you point by point-
The highest tested production street car was a 2000 Ford Mustang Cobra R-.99g's on the skidpad.
American cars have to use big engines to produce power?? The emissions in the US are horrible. Companies detune engines and lower HP claims to lower insurance rates and to pass emissions tests. Thats why the 350 Chevy and the 302 Ford are two of the most successful engines used in their respective communities. Huge aftermarkets. Dodge Neon SRT-4. Turbo I-4, 215 hp., mid 13's in 1/4 mile, not sure about skid pad, but surely in the high .8-low .9 range. The ZO6 doesnt use some kind of huge engine, it uses a 350. Thats a little under 350 CI. It handles .97 in the skid, a mid 12 sec 1/4 mile, and if Im not mistaken, outhanlded a Turbo 911 and a Lotus at Nurumburg. This year, Ford is introducting the new "GT". 500 hp, 500 lb.ft, and im sure a huge skidpad rating. It will wipe the floor in ALMS, Le Mans series, etc.

You are right, there are no American compeitiors in F1. But, there are also no foreign competitors in NASCAR. Altought there are rumors of both series integrating. Anything else???????

Porshce uses forced induction, BMW uses 12 cylinders, Mercedes uses 12 cylinders, American manufactures use a simple method:
There is ABSOLUTLEY NO replacement for displacement.

Not a chance in hell a Mustang Cobra outhandles a Z06... not a chance in hell.

[FordMonster]

Originally posted by Jay 02 TA ws6
Not a chance in hell a Mustang Cobra outhandles a Z06... not a chance in hell.

A Cobra R.

Do you not know what a Cobra R is????

[FordMonster]

Originally posted by guyt_x
dude who cares when america wins something international then talk

who cares what you can get out of a 7litre motor.

all technology is getting smaller only the american think bigger is better.

its the concept stupid

you give BMW six plus litre engine and they will make that car go so fats it will go back in time. and it will handle un like shitty stupid nascar that GO ROUND IN ****ING CIRCLES.

They go around in circle, right. 200 miles an hour in a Ford Tarus/Chevy Monte Carlo/Dodge Intrepid.

Anyone can build a open wheel car and make it go 7000000 mph, but not many people can take a V8 and a stock car body and make it run 200 mph thru a turn.

C5R? GTS class?? talk some more. There are no American cars involved in F1. There are in WRC, and the Focus is somewhat successful. Who says technology is getting better? OHV, Americans have had it. OHC, Americans have had it. Variable timing, Americans have had it for years. We use the simple method. Our cars are just as fast, but we dont have to spend 10k plus making them. Horsepower sells cars, torque wins races.

[92GreenGT]

I like watching these threads, just to see some of the things being said. Its fun and its a sport on its own.:p

BTW, what do you drive guyt_x??? I see in your sig it says You Would Lose. Just wondering.

Dave

[BPx]

Originally posted by 92GreenGT
I like watching these threads, just to see some of the things being said. Its fun and its a sport on its own.:p

BTW, what do you drive guyt_x??? I see in your sig it says You Would Lose. Just wondering.

Dave

http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=440

[Nildo]

Fordmonster, the ford focus is not an american car. It is designed and built in germany. Stating that hp sell cars....etc is frankly bloody stupid when you consider the mathematical relationship between both power and torque. One does not exist without the other.

What nobody has been able to tell me yet on this site is why americans are so enamoured with torque (fine in itself) that they compromise peak power? you can have both if a motor is well engineered. Balance between high power and torque is best, and is very achievable. Consider TVR's engines. They have plenty of torque (like a US car) and stacks of power. Why settle for second best?

[92GreenGT]

Originally posted by Nildo
Fordmonster, the ford focus is not an american car. It is designed and built in germany. Stating that hp sell cars....etc is frankly bloody stupid when you consider the mathematical relationship between both power and torque. One does not exist without the other.

What nobody has been able to tell me yet on this site is why americans are so enamoured with torque (fine in itself) that they compromise peak power? you can have both if a motor is well engineered. Balance between high power and torque is best, and is very achievable. Consider TVR's engines. They have plenty of torque (like a US car) and stacks of power. Why settle for second best?

Are you saying that American cars dont have torque and hp?? Or did you just confuse me??LOL HAHA I might be able to help you out once you answer my question.HAHA

Dave

[FordMonster]

Originally posted by Nildo
Fordmonster, the ford focus is not an american car. It is designed and built in germany. Stating that hp sell cars....etc is frankly bloody stupid when you consider the mathematical relationship between both power and torque. One does not exist without the other.

What nobody has been able to tell me yet on this site is why americans are so enamoured with torque (fine in itself) that they compromise peak power? you can have both if a motor is well engineered. Balance between high power and torque is best, and is very achievable. Consider TVR's engines. They have plenty of torque (like a US car) and stacks of power. Why settle for second best?

Thats exactly what I was saying. You cant have horsepower without torque. What is the point in having 500 hp. and 6000 rpms, but only putting out 250 torque at the same number? American cars are extremely well when you considre the HP/Torque curve. If you can produce torque at low rpms, it converts to higher HP at higher RPMs.

[guyt_x]

hahahaah who cares about what speed they do

going round in circle is so earth shatterly boring and requieres zero talent hence all those old farts win....

haha its actually comical to whatch the thought process of you retards

YOU DRIVE AROUND IN CIRLCES!!!!!!!

its that obvious but hahah you still make some lame point about a stock car doing 200mph have you ever watched DTM racing ??

or is your concentration span only able to follow cars around an oval track.

and for the last ****ing time the ford focus is a european designed car.

just face it american cars cant compete with international standards.

no one imports american cars...

people are falling all over themselves to get hold of imports from europe and japan.

even the gangster rapper people drive european cars in there music videos now why??

cos
american cars cant compete with international standards.

[fpv_gtho]

hey guyt_x, do u remember stating the american spec wrx had a 2.5L engine to satisfy the american need for larger displacement engines? the american market actually gets the bigger engine because the 2.0L turbo doesnt pass american emission laws. i know this post is refering to a post at the start of the forum, but i cant help that

[fpv_gtho]

and nildo, correct me if im wrong, but dont ford america actually make their own ford focus's to keep up with their own demand

[guyt_x]

fpv_gtho


that is interesting
where did u find that ?

because they also got the 2.5 in the old shape,

I find it hard to believe that america gets its own engine due to emission standards...why not just limit the engine out like they do in japan.

any how could you please let us know where you heard that.

[jadotch]

nope US cars cannot compete in the world.

http://www.cadillaceurope.com/

[fpv_gtho]

i got it out of wheels magazine

[fpv_gtho]

and do u really think that if its no replacement for displacement in america that a 2.5L would make a difference over a 2.0L?

[Nildo]

FPV so far as I know the focus rally car is still produced in europe. as for their domestic passenger cars, i don't know, i suppose that the us may assemble their own. it doesn't change the point that the focus is a german car, and the rally car certainly has nothing to do with Ford US. Actually that is what I like about ford. They have a multinational approach to the global market. Anyway...

I dont actually get what you are asking 92greengt. what fordmonster says is sort of what i meant. sort of. basically, power is a function of torque and revs. if torque in a motor peaks at 2500 rpm in one motor, and all other things equal peaks to the same number at 5000 rpm, then the second engine will produce double the power. In any engine torque can only stay flat for a limited time, and as revs increase, torque drops off. In an OHV engine this is generally earlier than in a well built OHC cam motor, which is why OHV is ultimately less efficient. Having said that OHV motors are nice and light and if built properly do a good enough job, provided, as in US vehicles, they are backed with plenty of displacement.

If the US motor giants put money into making OHC lighter and stronger then these engines would show their much greater potential.

[guyt_x]

for people who race in circles 500cc is proburaly fine.

As far as I know Japanhas much higher emission restrictions that the US.

[Jay 02 TA ws6]

Originally posted by FordMonster
A Cobra R.

Do you not know what a Cobra R is????

Yes... and you would be a fool to buy one over a Z06.

[Jay 02 TA ws6]

Originally posted by guyt_x
for people who race in circles 500cc is proburaly fine.

As far as I know Japanhas much higher emission restrictions that the US.

I already said I am not wasting my time with long explanations on this guy, but...

No, Japan does not have higher emissions restrictions than the USA. There is a reason why cars like the Skyline are not sold in America... and that is precisely it.

[Misho]

you guys have completely ruined what could have been a very interesting and informative thread. you turned it to a stupid bashing contest that is an absolute waste of time.

however i must note that very few people posted proper submissions, i'd say 95% of the thread is B.S

[Jay 02 TA ws6]

Originally posted by Misho
you guys have completely ruined what could have been a very interesting and informative thread. you turned it to a stupid bashing contest that is an absolute waste of time.

however i must note that very few people posted proper submissions, i'd say 95% of the thread is B.S

If you are talking about guyt_x, then you are correct. If that was directed at all of us, then perhaps you could enlighten us to your infinite wisdom.

[FordMonster]

Originally posted by Jay 02 TA ws6
Yes... and you would be a fool to buy one over a Z06.

Its a special edition Mustang. They only made them in certain years. If I had a choice, yes I would buy one over a Z06, just beacuse they are rare, special edition cars.

[jadotch]

Originally posted by Misho
you guys have completely ruined what could have been a very interesting and informative thread. you turned it to a stupid bashing contest that is an absolute waste of time.

however i must note that very few people posted proper submissions, i'd say 95% of the thread is B.S

I would say this whole thread is BS, it starts out with the assumption that American engines are bad.

To answer the original question of the thread

Yes, the ford 5.0L "Cammer" gets 425-430 HP.

[Jay 02 TA ws6]

Originally posted by FordMonster
Its a special edition Mustang. They only made them in certain years. If I had a choice, yes I would buy one over a Z06, just beacuse they are rare, special edition cars.

If you are talking about collectibility, and rarity... then I understand.

[Misho]

I am not going to point out any names, but i think its pretty obvious who's talking nonsense and who's worth listening to, at least in this thread !!

Regarding my wisdom, its not exactly infinite yet. Its a lot more than you can imagine though !!

[jadotch]

Originally posted by Misho
I am not going to point out any names, but i think its pretty obvious who's talking nonsense and who's worth listening to, at least in this thread !!

Regarding my wisdom, its not exactly infinite yet. Its a lot more than you can imagine though !!

Fair enough. I do get defensive when I have to defend American cars honor so to speak. I prefer them, affordable and the performance I want. If you noticed I have not bashed any other countries cars. I would love to drive a s2000, or a Skyline, or from Europe a BMW M3, or a Vanquish. (Exotics don't really do it for me)

The tone of the thread was hostile to begin with, almost a challenges. Each country has there good points and bad points of cars.
It would be like me going over to the Asian thread and say they cannot compete, try finding me a stock Asian car that runs high 9's in the 1/4 mile like the 68 Hemi Barracuda? Hell thats better than a McLaren, and in 1967, damn, the US must produce the best cars in the world. We all know this is just one aspect of a car, and just because the US does it better than most others, does not make it a superior vehicle. SO please understand the hostile tone some have taken.

[jadotch]

Originally posted by Nildo
Ok that is a really good point. Anybody can compare stats to get the answer they want. As I said, many cars aren't available in all markets. I've never heard of most of the ones you mention.

There is one really small nit I'd like to pick though. When you say a smaller engine can be more efficient due to airflow you are right. But when it comes to piston speed that is more relative to actual capacity per cylinder and bore/stroke ratios. Which is why I can't get the v10 viper motor when a 12 would be inherently more efficient.

Sorry to take so long to get back to you, this thread is messy.

You are right about the V-12 of the same displacement being more effcient. Maybe for more torque? Having a longer deeper stroke usually produces a flatter torque line. I have never really questioned it. Thanx

[Jay 02 TA ws6]

Originally posted by jadotch
Fair enough. I do get defensive when I have to defend American cars honor so to speak. I prefer them, affordable and the performance I want. If you noticed I have not bashed any other countries cars. I would love to drive a s2000, or a Skyline, or from Europe a BMW M3, or a Vanquish. (Exotics don't really do it for me)

The tone of the thread was hostile to begin with, almost a challenges. Each country has there good points and bad points of cars.
It would be like me going over to the Asian thread and say they cannot compete, try finding me a stock Asian car that runs high 9's in the 1/4 mile like the 68 Hemi Barracuda? Hell thats better than a McLaren, and in 1967, damn, the US must produce the best cars in the world. We all know this is just one aspect of a car, and just because the US does it better than most others, does not make it a superior vehicle. SO please understand the hostile tone some have taken.

You make very good points...

except for when you say you want to drive an S2000... that car is a pile, it doesn't do anything as well as the faster, more efficient, better handling, and almost as cheap Corvette. The S2000 has earned its bashing in my opinion.

[jadotch]

Originally posted by Jay 02 TA ws6
You make very good points...

except for when you say you want to drive an S2000... that car is a pile, it doesn't do anything as well as the faster, more efficient, better handling, and almost as cheap Corvette. The S2000 has earned its bashing in my opinion.

I just want to drive a car that revs that high once or twice in my life. If I had a choice, I would pick a corvette, but I still would test drive a S2000 to say I drove it.

[Jay 02 TA ws6]

Originally posted by jadotch
I just want to drive a car that revs that high once or twice in my life. If I had a choice, I would pick a corvette, but I still would test drive a S2000 to say I drove it.

I guess, if you are trying to develop a resume of driving as many different cars as possible... for the sheer novelty of it. If I was doing such a thing, the S2000 would definitely be one of the last cars i would drive...

[92GreenGT]

Originally posted by jadotch
It would be like me going over to the Asian thread and say they cannot compete, try finding me a stock Asian car that runs high 9's in the 1/4 mile like the 68 Hemi Barracuda?

Please show me a 1968 Barracuda that run high 9's in 1968 STOCK. Please show me becuase I have never seen one run anything like that.:rolleyes:

Dave

[jadotch]

Originally posted by 92GreenGT
Please show me a 1968 Barracuda that run high 9's in 1968 STOCK. Please show me becuase I have never seen one run anything like that.:rolleyes:

Dave

You are right, I was mistaken, they run High 8's with modern tires and gas.

With tires from 1968, they ran mid 10's

"The big news for '68 A-bodies was the Super Stock 426 Hemi package, available in the Dart and Barracuda. This was a drag race only package, featuring a race-tuned Hemi and a seriously lightened body. Acid-dipped doors, lexan in place of glass, factory delete of anything not essential to life on the dragstrip (e.g. back seat, sound deadener, window cranks). Lightweight van seats on aluminum brackets were used in place of the factory bench. They had a little sticker which indicated that the car was not for use on public highways, but for "supervised acceleration trials" only. It ran the quarter in the mid 10's in '68. Today, these cars dominate the top NHRA Super Stock classes (SS/A and SS/AA), and have broken into the eights! (Mopar Muscle Apr/94, Mopar Action Dec/93, Mopar Action Apr/94, Chrysler Power Mar/94)."

http://www.allpar.com/model/cuda.html
http://www.musclecargarage.com/superstockbarracuda.html
http://members.aol.com/moparnuts/ss-aa.htm

[Nildo]

So that car is not actually legal on the road then?

[jadotch]

No, it was not legal on the road, but the average person (with money)could go into a normal Plymouth show room and buy one straight from the factory, and it was considered a production car.

Please don't take my statement as a challenge, it was an example, I am sure there actually are some Japanese cars that will match. (I just don't know them, but I do not know asian cars that well) I know the statement was way slanted towards the US side, it was supposed to be though, as the original post was. Still a bad ass cars :) .

[92GreenGT]

Oh ok, yeah that works.LOL I thought you meant just a regular one.LOL Hey back in the day almost all of the muscle cars had there secret packages available. I know there was a package for the 68 I think mustang and it would run 10's back in the day too. Just like the Thunderbolt. Man those was the days, too bad I wasnt even thought of and my dad was a boy.:( Oh yeah, I am all for the american cars on this too, dont get me wrong I was just wondering what you was talking about.

Dave

[Egg Nog]

Originally posted by guyt_x
and you have just proved how dumb there people are

Nice error. That's classic.

[guyt_x]

are there events held in america like gymkana(turning left and right around cones) or skid pan days for american cars.

or is it only 1/4 mile drags?

[Jay 02 TA ws6]

Originally posted by guyt_x
are there events held in america like gymkana(turning left and right around cones) or skid pan days for american cars.

or is it only 1/4 mile drags?

I like how whenever anyone makes a good point contrary to your flawed view of the world, you just ignore it. Case and point: Your claim that Japan has higher emissions restrictions than the USofA - completely wrong. I responded and told you that. You ignored it and went back to your previous erroneous belief that American cars cannot handle. Once again, I will prove you wrong. They CAN handle, and yes, they have skidpad ratings. Many of them are higher than their European counterparts. The Corvette Z06 pulls close to 1 g. A Camaro SS (which everyone bashes on for being a straight-line car) can pull .94 g's when ordered with all available options. There is also a "slalom" that many cars are tested on (turning left and right around cones). Corvettes and Vipers rate higher in these tests than cars like the Murcielago.

I don't expect a reply from you on this... since it is about the 10th time that you have been proven wrong in this thread alone. All other times you just chose to ignore it completely, or come back with a completely childish display of namecalling. If you want to argue, do it based on facts, not outlandish and ignorant bold claims.

[jadotch]

Originally posted by Jay 02 TA ws6
I like how whenever anyone makes a good point contrary to your flawed view of the world, you just ignore it. Case and point: Your claim that Japan has higher emissions restrictions than the USofA - completely wrong. I responded and told you that. You ignored it and went back to your previous erroneous belief that American cars cannot handle. Once again, I will prove you wrong. They CAN handle, and yes, they have skidpad ratings. Many of them are higher than their European counterparts. The Corvette Z06 pulls close to 1 g. A Camaro SS (which everyone bashes on for being a straight-line car) can pull .94 g's when ordered with all available options. There is also a "slalom" that many cars are tested on (turning left and right around cones). Corvettes and Vipers rate higher in these tests than cars like the Murcielago.


The 2000 Cobra R got a 1.02 G's on the skidpad.

[ozexige]

Hey Dweeb your family's lookin' fer yu...

[guyt_x]

I will look into these awsome cars and there amazing handling.

so do americans have gymkana's or slalom events for private owners or leagues ?

[ozexige]

Hey - Dweeb
any news on your Mom?
R.S.P.C.A. (SA)

[Jay 02 TA ws6]

Originally posted by guyt_x
I will look into these awsome cars and there amazing handling.

so do americans have gymkana's or slalom events for private owners or leagues ?

Good. Thank you.

And yes, there are slalom events, and road racing / auto-cross leagues.

Americans don't just like going fast in a straight line, we enjoy the winding, curvy roads too... and we appreciate cars that handle. It is the stereotypes of the 60's and 70's straight-line, gas-guzzling muscle cars (although the history and character these cars posess is just awesome), and the 80's poor quality that you must get over and realize that to a large extent -- just don't hold true any longer. Today, America produces very reliable and efficient cars that perform on par with some of the greatest cars in the world.

[ozexige]

Originally posted by Jay 02 TA ws6
Good. Thank you.

And yes, there are slalom events, and road racing / auto-cross leagues.

Americans don't just like going fast in a straight line, we enjoy the winding, curvy roads too... and we appreciate cars that handle. It is the stereotypes of the 60's and 70's straight-line, gas-guzzling muscle cars (although the history and character these cars posess is just awesome), and the 80's poor quality that you must get over and realize that to a large extent -- just don't hold true any longer. Today, America produces very reliable and efficient cars that perform on par with some of the greatest cars in the world.

It appears that the Dweeb may be just starting to realise that if he pulls his head in we might get some valuable information instead of dishing out the incredulous drivel he asserts as experienced wisdom!

[Guibo]

Originally posted by guyt_x
I will look into these awsome cars and there amazing handling.

so do americans have gymkana's or slalom events for private owners or leagues ?
Yes, we the largest of which is probably run by the SCCA.
http://www.scca.org/
There's road racing, autocrossing, and rallying. Covering amateurs and professionals.

http://www.touringcarclub.com/
http://www.nasaproracing.com/
http://www.open-track.com/
http://www.greenflagdriving.org/
http://www.opentrackchallenge.com

The various BMW, Shelby, Porsche, Corvette, Viper, Ferrari, etc. clubs have trackdays all across the country.

[guyt_x]

like skid pan tests

oh well pointless

saw an M3 try a corse but little golfs set the fastest times.

suabru sti won the open section

big rear wheel drive cars dont do well ......

[Jay 02 TA ws6]

[Jay 02 TA ws6]

Originally posted by guyt_x
like skid pan tests

oh well pointless

saw an M3 try a corse but little golfs set the fastest times.

suabru sti won the open section

big rear wheel drive cars dont do well ......


Oh geez... you take a Golf, I'll take a Z06. We'll run a road course for slips. You'll be handing over your Golf (not like I would want it).

The STi is a great car, no doubt... but I would much rather have a Corvette or Viper than a boxy-looking sedan. On pavement, a Z06 will still outperform an STi -- and it will turn more heads at night. The Vette just makes 'em wet - if you know what I mean.

[Wouter Melissen]

Originally posted by Jay 02 TA ws6
The Vette just makes 'em wet - if you know what I mean.

It's hp/litre that will really get them hot! ;)

[Jay 02 TA ws6]

Originally posted by Wouter Melissen
It's hp/litre that will really get them hot! ;)

Obviously ;)