Politics

[ChevySucks]

The thread is all about politics we dont need em out where we talk about cars so this is where you put yer opinions. I remind you im an American and an extremely patriotic and argumenitive one at dat.

[Kudosdude]

Just to remind you all- sarcasm is the lowest form of wit though much more preferable to name-calling ;)

Ding ding

Let the fight begin.

It is the people that make the country, not the country that makes the people

Racism was created through naivety and continues by stupidity

[ChevySucks]

Thanks for all the riddles there kudosdude, hope some peeple check this out so we can have a nice lil political dissagreement. Bring it on everyone!

[henk4]

just wondering where the US of A was when millions were killed in Rwanda and currently is as a similar slaughter is taking place in Congo. In other words the USA does not give a damn when leaders murder their own people, unless they have ulterior motives. (oil being one of them). In a way it is a pity the USSR no longer exists, that would may be restrain the likes as Wolfowitch and Pearle a little bit. This neo conservatism is currently the biggest thread to world peace and there seems to be nothing to stop them.

Just a question to Chevy, have you ever been in another country than the USA?

[ChevySucks]

Yes ive been in another country before, ive been to South America and in Paris, why? And it is a shame the USSR ever existed, that country was the biggest mess ever. And why do you expect America to take on every friggen problem in the world that there is, why dont one of the other friggen countries in the world help out a lil and take care of some things. The reason we went after Iraq first was because they had the ability to kill many Americans, they were supporting terrorist groups (that includes the group who attacked our twin towers) by giving them money, weapons and safe harbor. If they supported the terrorist they were jus as much of a terrorist as the terrorist themselves. Thats that, whats next bud?

[ChevySucks]

I know dat Paris is not a country sorry, meant Paris, France.

[Rob]

First of al I don't think that Iraq has any massdestriction wapons, and they don't sell them to terrorists, because if they would why are terrorist using an airplane to kill americans, why not just bomb NY? don't get me wrong, i also think it's horrible what they did on 9/11, but i don't think the war in Iraq is justified by saying that they have the ability to attack america with those massdistruction wapons.
And why does america still have nucleair boms when they are saying to every other country, we will attack you if you don't destroy them now, because you are a threat for world peace.
I think america's vision on peace and freedom is a bit strange.
don't you americans ever wonder why those terrorists attacked you, and not for example france?

[henk4]

Hi Chevy, good to see that you have travelled. Hopefully you met a lot of South americans (Chileans or Argentineans) that were very happy that their previous US installed and supported military have disappeared. These generals killed thousands of their own citizens with the silent approval of the USA.
I am happy to see that Sadam is gone, and yes he did murder a lot of his own citizens, but there are several more examples of such leadership elsewhere in the world. Nevertheless I find it slighlty ironic, and I think this issue has not been very much highlighted in the US media lately, that during Iraq's war with Iran, the USA fully supported Iraq, and also delivered a lot of the things that the regime was later accused op possessing. (and in fact used to poison a Kurdish village in the nineties). What I am trying to say is that between black and white there a numerous shades of grey, which is an concept that is diametrical against the Bush doctrine : Who is not for us is against us.

When I mentioned the USSR I let you in to make the mistake that I thought you would. I never said that I supported the USSR (although as Europeans we will never forget that the decisive battle in World War II was fought in Russia), but I just regretted the fact that with the demise of the USSR we have only one superpower left, which to my opinion is now having some problems with its responsibilities. Having been to almost all new independent states that emerged from the USSR I can tell you that not in every country the situation has improved since 1990.

Rob asked the question about whether you ever thought about the question why "terrorists" are after you. Just looking at the US policy with regards to Israel might provide you with some answers.

Let's try to keep this discussion fair and open. Listening is the best way to improve the world.

[ChevySucks]

I fully support the Bush doctrine of who isnt for us is against us, its right. The reason terrorist attack us is not because of our government, it is because of their religon, that makes us out to be the devil, they refer to America as the great satan, they would like to see all Americans dead, even the kids, everyone, every last one of us, we are just trying to defend ourselves. And did you ever think that the war wasnt about oil, when if we wanted to we could of not supported iraq in the iran iraq war and we could have takin it over then for its oil?? Why should we have to take on every problem in the world, we may be the world power but dat doesnt mean we take care of the whole world. You act like every other country in the world is helpless. I think you should be extremely glad we are the only superpower left, the USSR would never have done anything to help another country, the USA is the most giving and caring country there is and ever was and will be, I think you would be complaining a lot more if the USSR was the only superpower left and not the US, you need to rethink what yer saying..

[IBrake4Rainbows]

With the U.S.S.R still in position, we would have had a nice balance of left/right thought patterns on the world today. No-one doubts the shambles that Russia was in at that time but at least it gave us a choice, at the moment America is the only option.
And for the record, it's certain religious leaders which claim America is the devil, not the whole of the Islam race. If you think that than many Americans practising Islam will hate the very ground they walk on and the flag they swear on. outfits such as Al-Qaeda are carrying out Terrorist attacks simply due to the fact that they are unhappy about what is going on. Osama Bin Laden is really unhappy about the Saudi-Arabian govt's decision to allow an American Military base onto his home land, and he sees it as the start of an invasion, so he does what he can to stop it. His means may be questionable but his message isn't. This does not mean i support him (as an australian i was touched by the Bali Bombings and do not support any terrorist group of any kind) but i do understand where he is coming from.
i'll just go off topic here for a moment but does everyone remember the appointed leader of Afghanistan (Name escapes me, sorry). well, as it turns out he was a figurehead of a major oil company trying desperately to get an oil pipeline built through Afghanistan, but the taliban were flatly refusing. Along comes 9/11 and the W.O.T and later his appoinment as leader, and the pipeline gets built. Strange coincidence it was freeing up oil reserves for the west (Namely America)? i think not.
No ones doubting 9/11 was horrible. But more people are killed in political unrest everyday in other parts of the world, the only two differences are that this was in the U.S, and that it was televised. This countries leader is far more dangerous than anyone gives him credit for, but he seems to get away with murder simply becasue of the country he runs. is that really fair?

[henk4]

Well spoken, IB4R, the point I am trying to make is that the USA does interfere with sovereign states, but at will, there are few where they come with, sometimes constructed, arguments why they should do so and other countries they ignore. I agree that the USA should not deal with all countries, that should be left to the UN, but accepting that also means that even the actions of the US should be subjected to the opinion of the UN or the Safety Council. That's what this organisation is all about and that is why it is supported by so many countries.
Chevy, the reason why the US could not take over Iraq during its conflict with Iran could have been that at that time the USSR was still in place.

As far as Mr. Bush is concerned, I am against him, but I am not against the USA. I think Bush is a puppet, with no free will and very much manipulated by the clique that once worked for his father. He was even elected against the will of the people who woted in majority for Gore, but due to the particular election system Bush won more states. (This is not even taking into account the Florida issue)

[guyt_x]

cos they think they are always right and dont have open minds.

bush is retard who is being minipulated.

america is going to get so nuked when it tries that "invade and put someone in power who is in there best interest" shit.

and they make poo cars.

[ChevySucks]

You're an idiot. If us Americans are so closed minded then why dont you open yer dumb ass mind to American cars, they are the best there is. And Bush is not a retard he is one of the best presidents we have ever had, everything he has done so far is right. And i hope you know America could kick yer countries ass without even tryin, so i wouldnt be sayin that we are gonna get so nuked, yer jus stupid. Dont get all mad cause we're the superpower herre!

[Rob]

You are both short sighted and you both only care about your own oppinion. Americans aren't dumb they just love their country, a bit to much maybe, and they have a president with a strange view on peace and freedom. thats all.
I think Clinton was a better president for the USA because under his command the USA was a bit more social to other countries.

And chevy american cars are deffenetly not the best cars there are, it's just the kind of car you like, you think is the best, I like european cars and I think they are the best, but that wasn't the discussion in this tread.

[henk4]

Originally posted by henk4
[
Let's try to keep this discussion fair and open. Listening is the best way to improve the world. [/B]

Sorry guys (Chevy, Guyt) I amfraid your contributions do not meet my standards, this will be my last post in this thread.

[ChevySucks]

If you dont like the thread get out then, and Clinton was the suckiest president maybe ever, his personal life problems along with his wussy like attitude didnt work. Someone tries to kill the last president so whats he do, umm send 1-2 Tomahawk missles to em, yeah that'll teach em! He was an idiot, American cars are the best and thats not an opinion its a fact, and i find nothing wrong with loving this country as much as i do, any other American would say the same thing.This is the best country ever. If you lived herre you would know.

[Rob]

Originally posted by ChevySucks
If you dont like the thread get out then, and Clinton was the suckiest president maybe ever, his personal life problems along with his wussy like attitude didnt work. Someone tries to kill the last president so whats he do, umm send 1-2 Tomahawk missles to em, yeah that'll teach em! He was an idiot, American cars are the best and thats not an opinion its a fact, and i find nothing wrong with loving this country as much as i do, any other American would say the same thing.This is the best country ever. If you lived herre you would know.

If america just stops supporting Israel with guns and money a lot of the problems like attacks on presidents will be solved, the whole moslim world is behind the palestinians, so if Israel is the enemy america is the enemy, your leaders are the cause of the agression against america. If you just understand that, but I dont think you do.
There is nothing wrong with loving your country, but you also got to see the bad sides of it, and your president is one of them.

and about the cars, lets discus them somewhere else.

[ChevySucks]

America right now has the best leader there ever has been. And our alliance with Israel will not go away. If anyone is familiar with the bible you would know that Israeli people are gods chosen people, and our president right now is a christian who beleives in this. We will protect them with everything we have if we must. Thats jus a thought for you. We have an alliance with them jus like any other country has an alliance with anyone else. It is no different. The reason we get all these attacks is not because we back Israel but it is because America is known to have many christian people, and the middle east doesnt like that at all, we are the devil to them, America is the great satan to them, they would like to see every last American die, even the babies, it doesnt matter to them...

[Homem de Gelo]

I'd rather talk about women, sex, cars, money, soccer, tennis...

Politics are frustrating, disapointing and depressing, especially if you live in a 3rd world country like I do.

[Rob]

Originally posted by ChevySucks
America right now has the best leader there ever has been. And our alliance with Israel will not go away. If anyone is familiar with the bible you would know that Israeli people are gods chosen people, and our president right now is a christian who beleives in this. We will protect them with everything we have if we must. Thats jus a thought for you. We have an alliance with them jus like any other country has an alliance with anyone else. It is no different. The reason we get all these attacks is not because we back Israel but it is because America is known to have many christian people, and the middle east doesnt like that at all, we are the devil to them, America is the great satan to them, they would like to see every last American die, even the babies, it doesnt matter to them...

In western europe also live a lot of christians, I'm a christian to, but we aren't attacked by those moslims. Why is that?
Maybe if you look at the way american soldiers are behaving in Iraq at the moment, they search regular people on the streets for weapons, which I can understand, it's for their own safety, but it's the way they treat the Iraqies. They tie their hands on the back, put a bag over their heads and let them sit in the sun. If they just tread them a little nicer, the people get a bit more respect for the soldiers and they wont attack them.

[ChevySucks]

There may be many christians there, but it is not known for that like America is. That is thought to be our only religion by much of the middle east. And what iraqies were we treating like this? Maybe the ones who were part of the terrorist groups and deserve to be shot, i think puttin a bag over their heads and tying their hands behind their back is being nice for what should be done to them. We dont treat the civilians of iraq that way. And if we were just "nice" as you say, to who the terrorist, yeah they would probably jus give up on attacking then wouldnt they, NOT, they hate us and always will no matter what we do. Being nice wont do a damn thing.

[Rob]

It;s true what you said about terrorists, ofcourse tread them nice is not the way to take on terrorist, but the people of Iraq, and I mean the normal people, not the terrorists, are getting sick of America because they are treaded like terrorists. I saw it on the news last week, there where just normal people not any terrorsts.

[ChevySucks]

When you saw that on the news if in fact you did, do you yerself know they have nothin to do with any terrorist, did you talk to them and they told you straight up they were jus normal civilians that had nothing to do with terrorist, no i dont think so. We only treat people like that that have something to do with terrorists. Not normal people. We dont treat normal people of iraq like that.

[Rob]

Well there where woman and children with them, but I don't know what kind of sick brain those Iraqies have, using woman and children as terrorists to attack american forces, but oke. What I was trying to say is that I think moslims do not hate america because of number of christians living there but because of americans attitude towards moslims, and the way Americans treat the people of Iraq is just an example.

[guyt_x]

the americans are stealing there oil by force.

and I also think moslims dont like the stupidity of americans who invade a country and kill hundreds of there people because they are looking for alledged weapons of mass destruction.

they still looking for them arnt they.

hmm I wonder if they dont find any weapons will they bring all the people they killed back to life....

umm.. no

they will proburaly just make sure they have some one in power who will give them discount oil.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

Remember people, George Bush is a chrisitan, he promotes good will toward men, peace on earth, and even prayer....YEAH RIGHT!
Now i don't mean to be mean to christians here (Catholic right here) but i have to admit a lot of the worlds problems stem from an ill-understanding of other cultures. I couldn't tell you how to perform a Japanese tea ceremony and i doubt you could tell me the exact recipe for Damper (Aussie Bush Bread, don't ask) but i do try to understand other cultures. What i have noticed in the case of most american wars was that, even if the opposition was wrong in it's thought pattern, they were against americas thinking and hence America didn't like them. Case in point: Vietnam. Touchy issue i know, but from my (Admittidly) limited knowledge of proceedings, America was only fighting to try and prevent the spread of communism throughout S.E. Asia. And americans are notorious for their ill-treatment of people after a war. They just expect that everyone would go dancing in the streets, not really thinking that they had toppled most systems of government in their chosen target and people would run rampant. Donald rumsfeld is quoted as saying that they didn't expect such a clean up operation after Iraq, and i'm sure they'll expect some reward for it from the Iraqi people. Lifting the Oil Embargo people? And remember, a big percentage of american voters are Jewish......... but i thought we were talking of iraq, or is it American Foreign policy in general?

[guyt_x]

if america couldnt screw small countries over for cheap oil it would also help cos then they wouldnt make stupid big engined cars.

americans suck ass

[Wouter Melissen]

Originally posted by guyt_x
if america couldnt screw small countries over for cheap oil it would also help cos then they wouldnt make stupid big engined cars.

americans suck ass

Your comments do nothing but underline the quality of other people's comments in this conversation.

[guyt_x]

brilliant point

sorry I made mention of something bad about america.

I forgot people still want to be james dean especialy the dutch

[ChevySucks]

I think im definetly tired of your gay ass remarks about America, they are sumthing that would come from a brain dead 5 year old. Just shut up man. What Bush did by taking out the regime in iraq helped everyone. Like i've said before, it was only a matter of time before he turned into another hitler, this is exactly how hitler started off. And if anyone wants that to happen they should be shot, twice. How is this about oil when if we wanted all the oil we could have taken it over back in say 90' or 91 or 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 00..... Didnt happen, it was the terrorist attack that everyone is seeming to forget, where kids parents were killed, innocent people were killed, thousands of em. And i hope we build what we have planned right now, the tallest buildings in the world, right herre in the United States of America, in New York. That lil sucker punch that came in from the back isnt gonna stun us, and those terrorist messed with the wrong damn people, cause i know when i turn 18 and graduate im goin straight into the USMC and servin my country and kick anyones ass who messes with it. And about the weapons of mass destruction, how do you know they didnt move them outta the country during that whole time when we werent alowed to look anywhere, and why wouldnt he let us go anywhere? Im not thinkin he didnt want us to see his giant marshmellow making machine. He was hiding something.. Even if we dont find any of them the war was still justified because sadaam was a lil bitch and killed innocent people, his own people, was running the country like a tyrant, and was working with terorist which were against Americans which makes him jus as bad as them.....

[IBrake4Rainbows]

Theres obviously been a lot of activity since i was last on, so here i go trying to adress some of it......

GuyT-X, you have nothing further to add to the conversation, you are nothing more than an aggrivated man and you need to learn the rules of this forum. We are talking politics, we are not talking how much american cars suck. The comments you made about the dutch were completely incomprehensible and also completely racist, it's like calling you an apartheid lover. Get over your seemingly ill-placed anger toward americans because of their cars, and come back when you can string two sentences together that don't involve the words "american cars" and "Suck."

Now onto ChevySucks. Good on you for your patriotism, but in all seriousness, you need to calm down. Sure, there were 'Kid's Parents " killed in the WTC attacks, and yes, they were a symbol of freedom, but more people are killed yearly, including the kids themselves, by soldiers, both of your own country and otherwise, that aren't telvised or 85 floors up. America will bounce back, for sure, but for the moment a lot of americans seem to be consumed with finding who did this rather than why and how. you freed Afghanistan, good for you, but you left a shambles, and did not really wipe out all you could of, you just steamrolled your way through in search of Osama Bin Laden, and had little care for anything else. Then along came Iraq, which stands out like a sore thumb among your recent military battles, and your need to get rid of a dictator, good call, too bad, when you had your first chance back in 90/91, you didn't pull through, YOU left him there to torture and crush the uprising. Shame on you for that.

I fear that when you join the Marines that more blind patriotism will be injected into the U.S. Military, and more of these seemingly unprovoked attacks against Jewish, American and Western Targets will continue. And for the record, i do agree that is a bad thing.

[guyt_x]

tell that to all the inocent women and children that where killed in the fighting.

so what will you do when some one drops a nuke on america ?

hmmm

what u gonna do ?

u people arnt untouchable.....

and its comming.

cos if you people came into my country looking crap that wasnt there and kill my wife and kids Id ride the nuke in my self.

you people are so close minded.

but I dont pity you

its time you people reaped what you sow

will actually be comical all your V8's will run on plutonium hehehe

[IBrake4Rainbows]

Well it's nice to see you've headed my comments...
Stop making an ass of yourself and come back when you either have something constructive or less derogotary to say.
In all seriosuness you need to have a long hard look at yourself before you write your comments and say "do i really want to make a fool of myself today?"
You aren't a terrorist yourself are you?
I suggest concilling regardless.

[guyt_x]

you like innocent people dying ?

[ChevySucks]

How do you know we just steamrolled through afghganistan have you been there since we went in? i dont think so, and the reason in 1990 and 91 why we didnt take out iraq was because we didnt have the right president in office to jus end it right and there, plus the other countries wouldnt let us. What innocent people are you talking about that get killed yearly that we dont know about? quit makin shit up, yer also an idiot for saying we dont know how or why 9/11 happened when we do, we know who did it how and why. You really said nothing in that long paragraph that did anything for this thread. And i hope that when i do go into the USMC i do inject a ton of partriotism, anyone in the military should be full of patriotism, everyone. I'll serve my county and do whatever they want me to do.

Guytx, what are you some kind of terrorist, i agree with ibrakeforrainbows on that one, you sound like one, and no one is nukin this country, no one is dumb enough to, if anyone nuked us we would have another 50 nukes to answer to it, which would be a bad decision. No body wants a nuclear war to break out, one nuke after another would go flying and everyone would end up dead.. You need to jus shut up about a nuke hittin america, and quit bein such an ass.

[guyt_x]

if you could get your head out of your ass for 2 seconds and realise that when you antaganise smaller coutrieswho have nothing to loose, especially extremist countries like korea and muslim nation you are messing with people who dont care.

I dont want to see any one nuked including america but everyone can see it comming except you people. I a country started rolling its tanks into my country and bombing place(even if they are military strong holds) you dont just kill inocent people.

Now think about this carefully ok, take one muslim who has been raised from birthto believe that if he dies serving his cause he will get a hundred wives and all that then add one family that was murdered by american troops.

and what do u have ?

=one person who will do exaclty what he is told by some crazy leader(who is still at large cos americans couldnt find there own ass with two hands a flash light).

and this crazy person sets off a nuke in new york.

who are you people going to send 50 nukes back at ??????????

the rubble that is now iraq ?????

u see once the nuke goes off, america wount care about retaliation cos u will all be dead, and the ones who are alive wount want the army pissing off any more little countries.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

May i just make a small comment here and point out that i have seen no credible link between Al-Qaeda (Or any terrorist organisations, minus the Ba'ath party) which have links to Iraq and Saddam Hussein.

Guyt_x, these people do care what there doing, you can't just blow yourself up thinking "Oh, Did i leave my stove on?" you'd be foolish if you thought that. But in reality here people, there will always be organisations that are going to be pissed off with the way things are, thats just the way things are, and thats life.

As for Korea (northern, i might add) they've been screaming out for attention recently, maybe they started SARS???

[guyt_x]

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=16274

please go to that address and read all the crap they lied about.

[ChevySucks]

What are you stupid, America has brought so much proof that Al Qaeda does have links with Iraq and Sadaam that it isnt even funny, its jus that nobody wants to listen. Iraq has given that terrorist group money, safe harbor, and weapons, like ive said many times before... And guytx yer stupid jus stop talking please...

[crisis]

Chevysucks and Guyt are both clearly adolescents with idealist views. Im not American but would rather live in their society than one run by communism, a dictatorship or a Muslim government. The US reasons for invading Iraq may be unclear but it is to simpistic to put them down to either weapons of mass destruction or oil. That they ousted a tyrannical dictator who not only butchered his own and other people but cynically let his poulation starve and die of lack of health care while building palaces all over Iraq is something that the world should be thankful of. This does not automatically mean that the US has to take on every other countries problems. Ideally everyone should live together happily and take care of each other. Thats being an idealist. In reality we can only afford to take on that which in some way concerns us. Or we would donate all of our money to all charities or none at all. As for the dead Iraqi civillians, thank the US that they spent billions of dollars developing weapons that could be targetted so accurately. If the US wanted to kill Iraqi civillians they could have carpet bombed Bahgdad with dumb bombs from waves of B52s and left nothing but desert. Much cheaper with less risk of their own personel. Its amuses me to see Iraqi civillians now protesting in their streets against the people who liberated them from a regime that would have forbidden such a thing and in all probability sought them out and executed them and their families. Aaahh the taste of freedom!Chevysucks may be interested to know that Jews (Israelis) are not Christians. One thing to be sure of that religion is to blame for all of this. Christianity, Moslem, Jew, Hindu or whatever. The only ones that seem to be placid are Buddhists but Im sure they are no more blind than the rest. Finally Guyt has just about alienated everyone with his childish ill concieved ramblings. Come back when youve grown up mate.

[guyt_x]

is that the only point you could come up with ?

nothing has been found in iraq that even resembles 'womd'
dont you feel guilty for supporting a nation that killed innocent women and children

Listen dont get me wroung I think they should kill all those silly gooses in iraq who cause trouble by trying to blow stuff up.

but you cant just do it with out any proof, eg lets go in there kill everyone level an entire nation and then hope we find something.

which they havent......

still waiting.........

nope still havent found one single thing.

hmmmm

lots of sorry letters to families...

eg
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Mr Iraq'ie man

We over in the United States of America are really awfully sorry about killing your wife and child. I know you must really hate us, but please dont be upset that we actually killed them for no reason at all Im sure someday we will descover 'womd' but untill then we are just going to occupi your country, because we dont actually know what we are doing.

P.S
We might have to take all your oil, we will do this by making sure that we install someone in power who will give it to us cheap cheap.

P.S.S
I know you have running water and food and stuff but we really dont care.

Your sincerly
Murders of Innocent People(and who need cheap oil)

[ChevySucks]

Thanks for that insight on the whole subject, it was pretty good. Im not an idealist though so that may be why im a so called "adolesence" in it. I knew that jews were not christians, and i knew this was some part all because of religion, and it is wrong to base the war on jus weapons of mass destruction or on jus oil, its not about jus either one of those, but for many reasons some of which you mentioned. GUYTX you are an idiot, that letter you jus made up is a perfect exampl of it, you are jus a guy who hates America and its people jus because, you cant tell me we were spose to let the twin towers go, and all the other threats, that isnt happening herre in the land of the free, we will defend our rights as free people. You need to be quiet once again, nobody wants to hear what you have to say.

[guyt_x]

they are onlyto quote you:
---------------
we will defend our rights as free people.
---------------
thats all they doing.


I think its great that a little nation has the balls to stand up to a country who tries to forcs its will on others.

and killing inocent women and children just because you cant find the people who blew up the twin towers

IS NOT RIGHT!!!!

GET IT STUPID

YOU CANT KILL INOCENT PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!

[Guibo]

Originally posted by IBrake4Rainbows
May i just make a small comment here and point out that i have seen no credible link between Al-Qaeda (Or any terrorist organisations, minus the Ba'ath party) which have links to Iraq and Saddam Hussein.


The documents and computer files seized during the Special Forces/Kurdish cooperative effort in northern Iraq are still being reviewed for intelligence. Those involved in the fighting say that al Qaeda operatives (harbored by the sympathetic Ansar al Islam terrorist group) were indeed killed in those firefights.

More recently:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/04/27/walq27.xml

[guyt_x]

I talking about killing inoccent people

[ChevySucks]

Who the hell said we were killing innocent people, we havent killed anyone that didnt try and kill us, yer an idiot. And to the link of al queada, therre were documents recently found that had the location of the CIA headquarters the FBI headquarters and many other important buildings in the US, what were they doing with those? Planning a feild trip herre, i dont think so, they were getting more targets for another attack. And those documents were iraq's and the al quaeda terrorist groups... Weird how they have the same stuff huh??

[guyt_x]

what you arnt understanding is america is feed their citizens so much DISINFORMATION that you people would believe jesus was responsible for 9/11.

did you even bother to see how many incocent women and children where killed in bombing raids and attack when the troops where moving into iraq?????


The FBI and CIA are all contolled by the same organization.

It is actually hard to believe there are such fickle minded people out there like you.

you are very patriotic and thats a good thing, but dont be dumb and believe all that crap the "press machine" is feeding you.

you must remeber you are only going on the facts that america has given you.

why did the 9/11 attacks happen any way ???

some body must of pissed off somebody off....... for that extreme to be taken.

america is going to get its shit pushed in again in a big way so if I was you I would get out before you start glowing.

[crisis]

Big fan of X Files were you Guyt? Maybe you are right. We should have let Saddam alone to oppress his people and consign them to third world status, shunned by the world while he moves from palace to palace and lets his sons kill and rape who they choose. These are really good people the Husseins after all. They only invade neighbouring countries every 10 or so years. Im sure he had learnt his lesson. Thats why he needed all of those bunkers to hide in while his people took the heat up on the surface. Women and children still would have died but not by Americas hand. Then while we all stuck our collective heads in the sand, our asses could be sticking up ripe for the taking.

[guyt_x]

then they must

pity the USA doesnt take an interest in other countries that are at war with each other and rulled by evil dictators.

funny how iraq was the only one with oil.

but thats just a silly coincedence hey

if america is helping them ..why them

and why not other coutnries....

you people are so dumb

smell the proganda

but then again this happen with the germans as well.

[ChevySucks]

Thanks for what you said. it was all right, guytx is the most retarded person i've ever heard from, and ive already told you why we went after iraq and not another country, and why should
America take on all the problems of the world, thy arent all our problems, and what the hell you talkin about with the germans? i dont remember them having oil..? And im never moving outta this country, and we wont be glowing either, isnt gonna happen, and i beleive what my president tells me, the press is retarded i dont listen to them, i listen to the government, and the reason 9/11 happened wasnt because we pissed someone off, that had nothing to do with it, we didnt piss anyone off, they jus hate americans, period, dats it..

[Guibo]

Originally posted by guyt_x
pity the USA doesnt take an interest in other countries that are at war with each other and rulled by evil dictators.

You seem to forget something called Kosovo. And who it was that spearheaded NATO operations there.

The US has no interest in the Israel/Palestinian conflict?

Liberia?

[IBrake4Rainbows]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Guibo
[B]

The US has no interest in the Israel/Palestinian conflict?

Where the hell did that spring from? of course they have an intrest, they have a large population of jewish people in America, and the goverment needs to keep them happy as well as try to keep the peace.

Liberia? I really don't think the U.S. could give a toss about whats going on. Liberia isn't a Dictatorship, isn't a "Terrorist" nation and thus America would have no intrest there. Need I say More? one word : Somalia.

Guyt_x, you are a child who is pissed becasue people like ChevySucks has a differing opinion (Or Conspiracy theory) to yourself. You need to learn taht preaching to someone as patriotic as Chevy is akin to teaching a brick wall to tap dance.

Chevy, I think (Big think here) that Guy may have been talking WW2 with the germans. And i'm just inquiring, how did you come up with the (Really unpatriotic) ChevySucks? shouldn't you be rallying behind car makers (And other American businesses) due to the fallout in the economy from 9/11, even if most of theri product is made in Mexico or Canada?

From what i've seen in this thread it is basically Guyt_x pulling at the heart strings and throwing out really wacky theories, and ChevySucks waffling on about how good America is at world politics and how he supports his president 100%. All in all this is a meaningless thread because both of the countries you guys live in are democracies, which allow you to voice your opinions like this. And the fact that Moderators like me can just sit here and read your posts without hitting the "remove thread" button shows how patient this website is. start coming up with more facts or more Hard evidence Guyt_x, and try to understand ChevySucks, otherwise i'll be the first to that button.

[Guibo]

IBrake4Rainbows:
I was merely questioning guyt x's stance that the US only gets involved if oil is at stake. Clearly that is not true.

The US may have no interest in Liberia (aside from the fact that Liberia was established by former slaves from the US and has looked to the US for guidance), so why is Bush considering deploying US troops there? Why was Bush adamant that Charles Taylor needed to step down?

[ChevySucks]

I knew guytx was meaning WW2, i jus didnt know what that had to do with anything?!? And my patriotism is not shown by my opinion of one car company, if it came to it i would take a chevy over any other junk import. I jus find ford cars and trucks more reliablw and faster. Jus for you though, i'll change my name. And thank you guiba for backin me on the subject of America not going after places jus for therre oil, therre has been many other places we've gone after that dont have oil, weird huh?

[guyt_x]

we talk about politics

I queit enjoy this forum

I get to ask embarrissing questions to people I would normally talk about cars with.

--------------
and to IBrake4Rainbows

I understand you are a moderater and stuff and I will try to keep it civil.
--------------

if the price of petrol went up dramatically in a short space of time

would american drivers not be stuffed?

[IBrake4Rainbows]

Thankyou Guyt_x, i really appreciate your efforts.

I could have sworn that we have already gone over this though, yes they would be stuffed, but this was not the reason for the war, it may have had a small impact but that would be it.

As for Junk Imports, i hear that. In New Zealand (Where I am) a huge chunk of the new car market is dominated by cheap japanese offshoots that the japanese have finished with, but we only just get. We get cheap skylines and Imprezas, but we also get Nissan Cubes and Honda StepWgn (No misprint, thats how they spell it). Hell, even our BMW came from Japan!

Guibo, the Liberia situation was me going off half-cocked. I recently watched a bit of BBC/CNN in my spare time (I'm on school Holidays) and it turns out america does give a stuff about Liberia. Go Figure!?

BTW, i also managed to catch a story on how a Commitee has cleared Blair of any Misleading in the Follow up to the war, maybe they were justified........

[ChevySucks]

Yeah did you all hear bout America getting ready to send troops to liberia, wow, they dont have oil, odd huh. What stupid reason will you have now for us going into liberia? We do care bout other countries problems, and the war wasnt about oil, this is jus more proof of that.

[guyt_x]

i dont care if the america send troops to new zealand as long as they dont start killing innocent people who cars what they do

but if they kill inocent people then americans are gonna get there shit pushed in.

--------------------------------
IBrake4Rainbows
I find it funny that i get repremanded for boring stuff
but on other forums where people are swearing like crazy nothign is said about it.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

There are levels of tolerance i have. Tolerance for swearing i can deal with, but tolerance for small-minded Conspiracy theorists is something i have none of, as i have no tolerance for poor speelers like misefl.

It's spelt Propaganda, i believe.

And i think France would have more of a bone to pick with NZ than America (anyone remember the Rainbow warior?), even though Nz did officially oppose the war.....

Good on America for spotting a trouble spot like Liberia and trying to defuse Civil War. I'm quite stunned of their foresight, but is it really just to try and get a foothold into the African nations, or something less sinister.....:confused:

[guyt_x]

ho hum

[Misho]

somewhere earlier in this forum, that supposedly patriotic american "chevy" something guy, said that 9/11 happened because Muslims hate america and not for any other reason. Can he explain why do they hate america??
it is very obvious that this kid (he is 15 by the way) still has a lot to learn. there is nothing wrong in being young, as long as your not stupid. if u think patriotism is defending your country without fully understanding the issue and beleiving in it, then you're wrong.
I am an African / Middle Eastern / Muslim so please watch out what you're going to say next, coz I am not some ignorant guy that you can argue with. As a matter of fact, I will be more than happy to answer any questions anyone might have reagarding the Middle East and Islam.

[guyt_x]

chevysucks seems to think its ok for inocent women and children to die just because one or two extremmists puched america's shit in.

You see america needed something to flex it huge over budgeted war machine at somthing to make the simple red necks happy, because they needed revenge.

and now the new iraq government which is remarkably western in style and wearinf western clothes which is just gay and so full of shit.
If you people cant see through all the propaganda, then shame.

the amount of money america spent on the war is so little compared to what they will get back in oil and building contracts.

And I say again If america came into my city and starting bombing shit and blowing my friends and family up, I would strap the nuke to my self and then the statue of liberty would be missing its ass.

and it makes no difference that it was a muslim country, last time it was a vietnamese country. and you people lost that too

[crisis]

Misho,
1.What do you think it is about your religion that compels some people to act with such violence and disregard for other peoples lives in the name of their religion?
2. Do you hate America?
3. Why do you think the Bin Ladens hate America?

[guyt_x]

this should be good

[Misho]

Originally posted by crisis
Misho,
1.What do you think it is about your religion that compels some people to act with such violence and disregard for other peoples lives in the name of their religion?
2. Do you hate America?
3. Why do you think the Bin Ladens hate America?

1) First I must point out that there is ABSOLUTELY nothing in our relegion that justifies the killing of people regardless of their race/relegion or any other feature except ofcourse in case of war which they started. People that carry out terrorist activities like 9/11 are extremists with a wrong understanding of Islam. Another interesting fact I would like to point out is that the word Islam in arabic means Peace, hence this is the relegion of Peace.

If a muslim dies during a war while defending his relegion, he goes staright to the highest heaven. It is this fact that leads these extremists to beleive that their actions are justified and that they will be among those who die defending their relegion. Although Islam insists that even during a war, only fight those who fight you and try to reduce killing as much as possible, even killing of plants, let alone innocent people.

2) No I do not hate America, actually there are many things that I find great in that country. What I do hate however, is America's foreign policy towards 3rd world countries in general and the middle east in particular.

3) I am not sure if by the Bin Ladens you are referring to the Bin Laden family or Osama Bin Laden and his group of extremists. If u mean the family, then I dont really have anything to say but i am pretty sure that not the whole family hates america !! If u mean the extremists, then please look up No.1

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to clarify this sensitive topic and please dont hesitate to ask more.

[Wouter Melissen]

Religion in general has been used over the centuries as an excuse for pointless killing. Let's not forget the Spanish Inquisition ...

[crisis]

Misho.
Valuable reality check for those of us who do not follow your beliefs. It is worth remembering that out on the Millions? of Muslims there are only a small percentage of extremists. Its a pity they make such a big noise.

[Misho]

Originally posted by crisis
Misho.
Valuable reality check for those of us who do not follow your beliefs. It is worth remembering that out on the Millions? of Muslims there are only a small percentage of extremists. Its a pity they make such a big noise.


Regarding the question mark you had after the word millions, I would like to point out that there are 1.25 billion muslims throughout the world. Main concentrations areas of the Islamic relegion are the middle east, africa and asia. At 1.25 billion, Islam is the second largest relegion in the world (after christianity) and is the most rapidly growing relegion.

Indeed it's a shame that an incredibly small amount of so called muslims has such a great influence on giving a very bad image of the relegion thorughout the western world.

[guyt_x]

Do the americans have any idea that if a small group of extremists can plan and exicute a plane to bring down the twin towers, with the americans powerless to stop them.

Dont you think that after bombing and killing alot of innocent people these same extremists are just going to go away.

No! right now they are plotting another way to push america's shit in.

and americans should really stop believng all that crap there media is shuvving down there throats, you people are in danger and you have commited terrible war crimes which unfortunaly the poor people of america will have to pay for with there lives.

but when i see the general mood of americans in this forum, you cant help but wonder that this is not some kind of sweet justice for those people who hate other races and cultures and religions.

the biggest mistake america has made is to generalise about muslims being dangerous and a violent culture. Almost any culture when pushed to far will retaliate.

THE ONLY DIFERNCE HERE IS THE WORLD SAW WHAT BENLADIN DID TO AMERICA,

BUT!!! NO ONE SAW WHAT AMERICA DID TO THE MIDDLE EAST COUNTRIES AND CULTURES FIRST!!!!

ITS ALL PROPAGANDA.

hmmmm I wonder what a nuclear holicaust will be like.

will be quiet strange, will have to take the american car forum off this site cos there after the nuke hits no one will want radioactice cars.

and i doubt the internet connection will stand up to the bombs.

people have the right to believe and practice what ever religions they wish, and of all the poeple to mess with america picked muslims!!!!!!!!
I mean how dumb you gotta be, they are easly the most commited to there religion.

america you have made your nuclear holocaust bed now you have to sleep in it.

[ozexige]

Hey Dweeb your family's lookin' fer yu...


Is your past catchin' up with you? .......


You can help us catch your Mum? .......
R.S.P.C.A. (SA)

[guyt_x]

HELP MY FIND IRAQ'S NUCLEAR WEAPONS, ORDER YOUR VERY OWN "FIND MR. SADDAMS WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION DETECTION KIT", Kit Includes: Darts and a Map

[ozexige]

Originally posted by guyt_x
HELP MY FIND IRAQ'S NUCLEAR WEAPONS, ORDER YOUR VERY OWN "FIND MR. SADDAMS WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION DETECTION KIT", Kit Includes: Darts and a Map

Hey - great comeback Dweeb :rolleyes:

But -
we would all insist that the map be of your Afrikaan homeland.

[Misho]

Hey ozexige, is your problem with guyxt specifically or is it with Africans and other races in general ??

[ozexige]

Originally posted by Misho
Hey ozexige, is your problem with guyxt specifically or is it with Africans and other races in general ??

(1.) No it's only with 'guyt' -
but as I live in Australia and in particular on the West coast (very similar climate) we do experience an inordinately large number of immigrants from SA.
I meet many of them -
the ones that can afford to emigrate, usually start up a business of some kind and as our company is associated with all aspects of turn-key manufacturing processes and government OHS requirements I work with them regularly and listen to all the horror stories of why they left and the bad experiences and the relatives they've left behind.

(2.) You are not qualified to critique my outright contempt for 'Guyt' until you've read ALL his posts.

(2.) 'other races in general' -
well I have to admit that I can't stand Canadians or the French (though I just bought my 16y.o. a Peugeot '307') and I HATE FRENCH-CANADIANS most of all!


:D

[crisis]

You mus'nt like your kid much either if you bought him a Peugeot. Still he is unlikely to get caught speeding.

[Misho]

You hate Canadians ?? Have you noticed what it says about my location ?!!! I am was very pleased to know that you hate french-canadians, coz I am from an English province in Canada and I would of been very depressed to know that you don't like us !!!

As for guyxt, Ive read many of his posts (probably not all) and i still dont see a reason for your agressive actions. I am not defending him, but coz he has a different opinion on cars, politics or anything else, that doesnt give you, me or anyone else the right to make fun of his family and his race.

[crisis]

Originally posted by Misho
As for guyxt, Ive read many of his posts (probably not all) and i still dont see a reason for your agressive actions. I am not defending him, but coz he has a different opinion on cars, politics or anything else, that doesnt give you, me or anyone else the right to make fun of his family and his race.

This is of course the same Guyxt that has repeatedly made abusive comments about the US, their politics and their cars.

[guyt_x]

but thats besides the point

crisis you have no idea what the real world is about.

you cant just do what you want(eg invade countrys for oil and cos you cant find the real culprit for 9/11so u go for a soft targetlike iraq).

please people can we stay on the topic.

and ozexige you are just lame and sad and hope you say a bad muslim comment one day and get beaten.

and canada is america without all the stupid rednecks and bad cars and impending nuclear holocaust.

[crisis]

Originally posted by guyt_x
but thats besides the point

crisis you have no idea what the real world is about.

you cant just do what you want(eg invade countrys for oil and cos you cant find the real culprit for 9/11so u go for a soft targetlike iraq).

please people can we stay on the topic.

and ozexige you are just lame and sad and hope you say a bad muslim comment one day and get beaten.

and canada is america without all the stupid rednecks and bad cars and impending nuclear holocaust.

Very intersting. In response.
1.I dont have any idea what the real world is about. When someone can define the real world and through whos perspective I will attempt to find out.

2.The legitamacy of the Iraqi invasion has become recently more clouded. I still think we have a good result in global terms. My sympathies to the innocent parties.

3.I beleive the topic is politics.

4.please people can we stay on the topic.

5.There you go getting all hypocritical again.

[guyt_x]

tell "a good result in global terms" to all the dead innocent people

[ozexige]

Originally posted by Misho
You hate Canadians ?? Have you noticed what it says about my location
..............
................

many of his posts <READ THEM FIRST!>

Gee you're in Canada...

Duh...

Did you notice the big smiley face at the end of my 'hate' letter?

I stand by my first comment - you are in no position to criticise my disdain for this miscreant without first determining it's state of mind.....
do monkeys have a mind or a brain?

:mad:

[ozexige]

Originally posted by guyt_x
but thats besides the point

crisis you have no idea what the real world is about.
....................

........................


and ozexige you are just lame and sad and hope you say a bad muslim comment one day and get beaten.

and canada is america without all the stupid rednecks and bad cars and impending nuclear holocaust.
and FRENCH-CANADIANS!!!!..... hehe


I don't reply to your comments directed at me -
I, along with the rest of us here,
are secure in the knowledge that your country/continent has the saddest history of all -
you caitiff!

[ozexige]

Originally posted by crisis
You mus'nt like your kid much either if you bought him a Peugeot. Still he is unlikely to get caught speeding.

It's what he wanted - and he's paying my wife and I back by working weekends and after school as a shelf packer at the local supermarket.
I was surprised - the build doesn't match a golf - but, unbelievably, it's NOT SLOW - who would have thunk it?

:D

[Misho]

Originally posted by ozexige
It's what he wanted - and he's paying my wife and I back by working weekends and after school as a shelf packer at the local supermarket.
I was surprised - the build doesn't match a golf - but, unbelievably, it's NOT SLOW - who would have thunk it?

:D


I am sorry, but is that what you call "staying on topic" ?? I thought this was about politics. Sorry for being off-topic.

[Misho]

Originally posted by ozexige
and FRENCH-CANADIANS!!!!..... hehe


I don't reply to your comments directed at me -
I, along with the rest of us here,
are secure in the knowledge that your country/continent has the saddest history of all -
you caitiff!

Please inform us more about the so-called "sad" history of Africa.

By the way , Canada is undoubtly the best place on EARTH !!

[ozexige]

Originally posted by Misho
Please inform us more about the so-called "sad" history of Africa. <READ GUYT'S POSTS - they prove it!>

By the way , Canada is undoubtly the best place on EARTH !!

Nuh - I OWN the best place on EARTH - 500 acres 10km from a small town called York in WESTERN AUSTRALIA!:p

nyah, nyah, nyah.......


Oh - BTW Canada can't be the best place on earth - French f...kin' Canadians live there!


:D

[Misho]

what about the rest of the posts ?? any news on the sad history of africa yet ? or are you still busy looking it up on the net !!!! coz if you are, let me point out that the internet isn't as popular over there as u might think it is !!!

[ozexige]

Originally posted by Misho
I am sorry, but is that what you call "staying on topic" ?? I thought this was about politics. Sorry for being off-topic.

Look Mish - buddy -
This is a forum where we just 'talk' to each other - f...k 'staying on topic'!

:D

[ozexige]

Originally posted by Misho
what about the rest of the posts ?? any news on the sad history of africa yet ? or are you still busy looking it up on the net !!!! coz if you are, let me point out that the internet isn't as popular over there as u might think it is !!!

Uh - over where?
:confused:

[Guyt_lame]

but any how

stupid americans and convicts here

so long people

[henk4]

Originally posted by Misho
Please inform us more about the so-called "sad" history of Africa.

By the way , Canada is undoubtly the best place on EARTH !!

I have just returned from a two and a half week business trip to Nigeria and Ghana. As I could stay in nice hotels I personally felt OK and relatively safe but that is not the case for 95% of the population in these countries. in particular Nigeria.
I think it might be good for a couple of contributors to this thread to make a similar visit. It really could be an eye-opener.
It just so happened that I was in Abuja, the capital of Nigeria at the same day George W. flew in and I just missed his press conference at the Hilton. He did not even wanted to stay a night there. Irony of it all was that the access road to the airport is aptly called the Bill Clinton Avenue, and after GW left, there were no attempts to rename it.

Why did GW go there? Not to try to set up a peace keeping force in Liberia, but to secure that the forecast that within the next ten years 25% of the USA's imported oil is originating from West Africa, will materialise.

I also took some of my time to read the book "Stupid White Men", written by Michael Moore. Should be available in the USA and provides a wealth of information about the current Government of the most powerful state on earth. Recommended reading!!

[Misho]

Thank you henk4 for your input.

[henk4]

Originally posted by Misho
Thank you henk4 for your input.

Visited Canada three times too, but as a tourist. It is indeed one of the greatest countries, and were it not for some economic setbacks in the early fifties I would have been Canadian myself.

[JAC]

:o Well I've just finished reading this thread & found it both funny & pathetic in equal proportions...

dont know what happened to this "chevysucks" character (off to feed the cows perhaps) but he seems to be the type of American the world hates....
dont get me wrong, I have no problems with Americans in general, but every country has its redneck element, & chevy sucks...you are on top of the steaming pile!!!

I'm sick of people like you telling the world that America is its saviour & that we should all bow down & be thankful...The sensible world knows that all the US Government is doing is cleaning up its own mess! Why should we be grateful for that???

Your Government helped put madmen like Saddam in power in the first place..(How many US personnel have been killed by Iraqi's brandishing weapons they bought from the US?), then proceed to tell the world how brilliant they are for bringing him down!
Chevysucks, you are either very young or very blind (call that patriotism if you like) & I think maybe, you should quit talking politics & concentrate on discussing something you know about...cars

American ones only of course :)

[crisis]

Welcome JAC. This thread has had its moments. I am not an apoligist for the US but have no time for simplistic "war for oil type comments." To say that "your govenrment" helped put madmen like Saddam in power is like saying the current government of Germany killed millions of jews. The govenrment of the time backed Saddam against what they percieved as a larger threat that was Iran. With hindsight we can now see Saddam as a madman. How many examples are there of this in history? It doesnt mean, however , that they should not act against the same person they saw as an ally, if he becomes dangerous. I dont know if America should be the worlds policeman but Im also sure I dont want anyone else. Russia, China, India, Pakistan? Any country who takes on the task need the military clout AND restraint. The alternative is to let the governments of each country rule their people in the way they see fit. Nigeria, Germany (1940 style), North Korea, Iran, Iraq?

[ozexige]

Originally posted by JAC
:o Well I've just finished reading this thread & found it both funny & pathetic in equal proportions...
..............
...you are on top of the steaming pile!!!
...............

Chevysucks, you are either very young or very blind (call that patriotism if you like) & I think maybe, you should quit talking politics & concentrate on discussing something you know about...cars

American ones only of course :)
I'm sorry, but you just shot yourself in the foot jak -
with a Styer (look it up) -
any simple viewing of news footage shows Iraqi weapons to be Russian - AK's etc.
AND
anyone who starts off a statement with ..
"don't get me wrong, I have no problems......"
HAS A PROBLEM!
You are the typical anti-american Australian - ignorant of ALL the facts but willing to post an 'opinion' anyway.
You can have your opinions but don't assume to speak for the 'sensible' people of the world.
If you need a group to back you up, join Guyt's - but I'm afraid you might be too late.

[JAC]

any simple viewing of news footage shows Iraqi weapons to be Russian - AK's etc.

Which news footage would this be then ozexige? CNN or similar?
You need to do some more research....Yes the Iraqi's used Russian weapons, scuds, tanks etc....but what were the weapons the world feared them using most? Chemical weapons....& who helped them set up their chemical weapons programme (not too mention conventional weapons) during the Iran/Iraq war? the US.

If you read my post again you will see I was criticizing the US Government, not its people, so I am not anti-American (I criticize
the Australian Gov't as well, does that make me Anti-Australian?)
and one other thing, I am not Australian either...wrong on both counts

ps. so what does Styer mean? I didnt look it up..;)

crisis..thanks for your reply...
I agree that support for Hussein at the time would have seemed the safer option, but when you consider that Hussein was already using Chemical Weapons not only on the Iranians, but on his own people as well, not too mention committing human right abuses, (both of which the US knew about) at the time the US where dealing with him, you would have to say it was a serious error of judgement on their part....?

I agree you shouldnt blame present day Governments for the mistakes of the past, but the man they sent to do business with Saddam Hussein at the time was none other than???
Donald Rumsfeld (sp?)

[crisis]

I saw an intersting on SBS Cutting Edge last night about the propoganda the US used to convince the world to go to war with Iraq. Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz in particular do not shape up so well. It was a doc produced in Germany so its their slant on things but it exposed via ex CIA and US government people the agenda that the US and in particular these guys have. According to the report almost all of the "evidence" regarding nuclear and biological weapons was dodgy. It seems the WTC attack gave these guys the public backing to do what they wanted to 10 years previous. The philosophy behind the US's attitude of world order is less comforting if whay this report said was true.

[JAC]

Didn't see that myself but I've read similar stories...

Its the side of the US Government that no one wants to see
(many other Governments for that matter, I saw a documentary about the German Government & its dealings with Hussein in the '80's (think it was the '80's)..They actually helped set up Iraq's first nuclear reactor...)

I had a day off sick during the last war & thought I'd watch some
daytime TV..Oprah Winfrey (i was sick remember ;)) was doing an expose on her show about the US Govt's dealings with Saddam...they showed a photo of a smiling Rumsfeld shaking hands with Saddam during their talks during the Iran/Iraq war, then had a panning shot of Oprahs audience & you should have seen the look of shock on their faces..! they didnt know a thing about it....

[crisis]

I think I saw the same doco on Germanys involvement. France was in it up to their eyeballs as well. Makes their reluctance to become involved in cleaning up the mess a little interesting.

[crisis]

Date Published: 22/03/2003
>Author: William Rivers Pitt
The ominously named Project for the New American Century (PNAC) desires
>and demands one thing - the establishment of a global US empire to bend
>the will of all nations. Created in 1997, the Washington-based
>think-tank chafes at the idea that the US, the last remaining
>superpower, does not do more by way of its economic and military force
>to bring the rest of the world under the umbrella of a new
>socio-economic Pax Americana.
>
>The essence of PNAC's ideology can be found in a report it produced in
>September 2000 entitled Rebuilding America's Defenses: strategy, forces
>and resources for a new century. The report outlined what is required
>of the US to create the global empire of the think-tank's dreams.
>According to PNAC, the US must:
>
>o reposition permanently based forces to southern Europe, south-east
>Asia and the Middle East; o modernise US armed forces by (among other
>things) enhancing its fighter-aircraft, submarine and surface-fleet
>capabilities; o develop and deploy a global missile defence system, and
>develop a strategic dominance of space;
>o control the `international commons' of cyberspace; and
>o increase defence spending to a minimum of 3.8 per cent of the country's
>GDP - up from the 3 per cent currently spent.
>
>Most ominously, PNAC's document described four `core missions' for the
>US military. The two central requirements are for US forces to `fight
>and decisively win multiple, simultaneous major theatre wars' and for
>them to `perform the "constabulary" duties associated with shaping the
>security environment in critical regions'. One way or another, US armed
>forces must establish American dominance for all to see.

Just some edited highlights Rumnsfeld, Wolfowitz etc are founders of the Project for the New American Century .

Nice

[Ricardo]

I've been passing my eyes trough some of your replies and allow me to say some things:

America IS a great country. No doubt about it. But they must no forget that it was created with people from many countries seeking new oportunities.

About terrorism I think America's foreign politics are the main problem. To undestrand what I'm saying you should put yourself in their position and must not forget that most of these people are illiterate and subjected to religious leaders unscrupulous making doubtful interpretations of the religious books.

Considering what I've said before, democracy is almost impossible in this countries due to the history of violence they have and neither America or any other country should force to impose democracy. Talibans maintained the power in Afganistan because they where violent.

You don't have to go to middle east to know that America is not seen with good eyes. Generally speaking a great percentage of Portugal population think America is just a new form of a Roman Empire but with stupid people in the governement and upright population. How can you take decisions about foreign countries if the majority of the congressman haven't visited anything beside Canada or Hawai or Mexico?

America HAS interest in Israel and if you defend so firmly human rights why did you support the creation of Israel after WW2? Jewish were a problem. Where would the allies put thousand of jewish without a country? After that until today USA has shamefuly supported Israel millitary and financially. And the reason behind all this? Millitary bases strategically situated in the middle east.

The best cars are Honda's racing cars followed by German technology (Mercedes is very popular in america) and finally American cars. American cars are Europe's 80's cars. Big cubic inches engines, low power and poor efficiency - low mpg. Don't forget that in America gas is 4 times cheaper than in Europe (Portugal, for example) - that's why you don't have to worry developing your cars.

If the greatest ambition for you is to go to USMC after you turn 18 to fight then you are no better than arabian terrorists that see in violence the only way to defend their right.
It's sad.

[Misho]

Ricardo , man you really messed up my head switching from politics to racing cars back to politics !!!

[crisis]

Im not sure what constitutes a "great country". The US like everyone else acts in its own best interest. The fact that it has the power to get its own way means it has more influence than everyone else. I find much from the US objectionable. I also like quite a lot. Whatever their foreign policy does not vindicate the physcos that kill innocent people in the name of their religion. The leaders prey on the dissilusionment and jealousy of the poor and under privaleged and turn them into corpses. You dont see the leaders driving the bomb packed vans to paradise. As for the return of the Jews to Isreal after WWII, you can blame the colonialisation of the Middle East by the UK, France , Portugal, Spain and every other European country that took part during that era for creating the mess. What we have now is to deal with it. While differences exist in wealth, power and religion one could be excused for despairing.

[Egg Nog]

The United States has soooo much potential to be better than it is, if only people would realise that Ralph Nader isn't some hippie tree-hugger. I've heard a few of his speeches and what he has to say about American healthcare, the economy, and the distriubtion of wealth is utter genius. If elected, he plans to establish a free healthcare system much like the one in Canada (probably even better).

He explained how the economy is always said to be booming, but it has relatively little effect on the middle and lower class. The wealthiest 1% of Americans have a net worth equal to the bottom 96%. Bill Gates himself has a net worth that is on par with that of the entire bottom 45%. Yeah, that's 120,000,000 people.

Anyway, it's time to realise that there's more than two parties for you guys to vote for...

[Misho]

thanx Egg Nog for the very interesting facts u stated !!

as for what u mentioned about Ralph Nader's comments regarding establishing a free health care system in the states that rivals that of Canada, I dont think that is possible. The US is a much bigger, more complex community than Canada. Such a system would probably face an unlimited number of obstacles that just wont make it survive. The canadian healthcare system, which is considered the best in the world, is already starting to slowly degrade as the number of people covered increases with time. I would assume u remember the multi million dollar investigation into improving the system they had last year.

[megotmea7]

let me be the first sane(i hope) american to post here, i know im a lil late on this but that chevy guy shouldnt be the only american oppinion to be heard. not every one is as narrow minded as he, nor as hoplessly dedicated to bush, granted most take what they see on tv and base their decisions of right wrong and otherwise accordingly, its not always accurate information.(do you like to tell alot of people you really mucked up? no you misinform and bend the truth to cover your tracks or play the blame game, now if times that by a couple million and you have a government and what they tell their people about a mistake they made) now bush, he like his daddy didnt quite like saddam, and the weapons inspections were a way of him looking for an excuse to go in there and do with saddam what daddy should have(one would be nieve to belive this war had nothing to do with oil), after the inspections proved inefective he and his administration took a stab into the dark and went in with little to no evedence and hoped theyd find, or something they could play off as, weapons of mass destruction or some sort of tie to a terrorist orginization.(what they did find was mass graves and genocide remenicent of germany in the 30's and 40's which to me is something that should provoke action from any peace loving countys) so we went in... at the same time the people of this country have no more responsibility for what actions the government takes than you do(if the administration wants to invade we cant do anything if congress approves) we're not the ones that make the decisions and i do recall MANY anti-war protests before and during the war, so it would be ignorant for someone to make a genrealized statment such as "i hate americans they are in it for the oil" im not going to see that oil money their going to use it to increase their profit margins. about the civilian deaths that occured during the ocupation/liberation(whatever you want to call it) its a largly american saying that goes "if you want to make an omlet you have to break some eggs" now to me that goes along with the whole american 'gung ho' thing "if your gonna go, go big". we didnt (at least i hope we didnt) go into iraq with the attitude of "were gonna take out any military targets and the regime they protect no matter whos in our way" im fairly up to date with military munitions and the air force's paveway guided bombs are capable of being dropped from ~30000 feet and mabe a 17 miles away and fly inside a pretargeted window or drive thru 2 feet of concrete with up to 2000lbs of HE, colateral damage to civilian lives and interests cant all be blamed on the US military, yes some of it should but what about the cowerdace of the iraqi forces? placing military instilations in neighborhoods? next to schools? i belive saddam should have been taken out of power, not under the guise of NBC threats to america or looking for a scapgoat for the 9/11 attacks, but for the liberation of the iraqi's from a radical dictator, was it the US's place? probly not. did we do it? yes, but the US wasnt the only one in there... i myself am pretty patriotic too and even considered the military(more specificaly the MC) when i turned 18 but it didnt happen and i dont let my pride in my country blind me from the truth or need for answers drive me to radical(or downright stupid) conclusions, and dont get me started on vietnam...:) any way some would say americans live in their own lazy little world and thats probly true to an extent, its not like the ones of us with half a brain dont know whats going on in the world, and remember someone already made that mistake before ...ehhhjapanhhhhmmmm :p

[henk4]

Originally posted by megotmea7
let me be the first sane(i hope) american to post here

Brave stand, who's going to be the next sane poster?

[Misho]

Indeed , its nice to see someone sensible and not stupidly patriotic in this sensitive thread.

[Batmobile_Turbo]

does anyone even care about this thread anymore:confused:

[Misho]

im just waiting for someone to say something !!

[megotmea7]

saddam sux! there i said it...

[Arnold_Gov.]

Hello,
This is Arnold Schwarzenegger (The Terminator) and I'm posting this message in order to gain as many votes as possible in my election for Governor. Of course only people in California can vote but, maybe those who read this and have seen my violent movies could come to California and vote for me because I will rid this state of any violence and crime with my big muscles.


P.S. Don't forget to watch my latest movie, "Terminator 3"

[Misho]

I guess this is a welcome refreshment to this thread !! So what do you guys think of this whole california recall thing ? im not very good with US internal politics, so i will let those with more insight give us their opinions.

[megotmea7]

well arnod won it, i voted for camejo, but he wasno on the popular vote... ohhh well, least bustamante didnt win...

[henk4]

There was a cartoon in our newspaper, showing an average US couple watching TV. On the TV was Arnie: I am a cyborg that has returned to the 21st century to clear up the mess."
The guy watching says to his wife: "He is sounding the most realistic of the whole bunch"

I have the impression that the above sums up current US democracy quite adequately.

[NoOne]

I don't follow politics, especially that of other countries. I do totally support the U.S.A.'s actions in the middle east, what I don't support is President Bush's actions of late.

Click the link http://www.takebackthemedia.com/onearmy.html and you will understand what I am talking about.

God bless the U.S.A. .... our neighbor and friend.

[Misho]

Originally posted by NoOne
I don't follow politics, especially that of other countries. I do totally support the U.S.A.'s actions in the middle east
God bless the U.S.A. .... our neighbor and friend.

when u say u dont follow exterior politics, that means u dont really understand in them. so how is it exactly that u support the USA's actions in the middle east when u dont know much about the situation ?? i really need a clarification on that comment.
what do u know about the middle east and/or the states that makes u say something like that ?

[crisis]

I would have voted for the stripper but Arnies cool. Better than the wankers we get in Oz.

[BiTurbo]

Originally posted by crisis
I would have voted for the stripper but Arnies cool. Better than the wankers we get in Oz.

The only info I've followed about Hollywood's recall is that they have a GDP a little short of CHINA?!...... WOW......

I can't see how Arnie could possibly shoot his way out of their $85 billion hole.

[megotmea7]

all i can do is cross my fingers... he said he's freezing spending, and auditing the whole system, im no accountant but its gonna take a couple years to wiggle out of this hole...:rolleyes:

[BiTurbo]

Hey mego -
what's 'MoVal'
:confused:

[NoOne]

My apologies Misho, after reading your response to my post and then re-reading my post I realized how vague and abrupt my statement was.

When I stated that I don't follow politics I meant that I do not follow world politics with any real vigor, that my knowledge is average.
At 35 I know not to believe word for word what western media expects us to believe as far as anti-middle east propaganda. Afterall, there is no perfect government, but there is no denying the coruptness and inhumanities of the Iraqi and Afghanistan governments that were brought to light after the 9/11 tragedy. It is my own belief/opinion that someone had to end that particular tyranny, and the U.S.A. was probably alone in being up to that task.

Don't get me wrong, I do not think the U.S.A. is without its own faults, it is a shame that the most powerful country in the world is trying to solve everyone else's problems, yet still has people living in the street and kids going to school hungry. As the saying goes ..."take care of your own backyard first".

I would also like to state that my support of the U.S.A.'s actions is purely political and I have no prejudice against the Muslim faith.

Again, I apologise for the misunderstanding, the entire point of my original post was to bring attention to the treatment of the U.S. troops who risk life and limb serving their country and to an extent the world.

[henk4]

Originally posted by NoOne but there is no denying the coruptness and inhumanities of the Iraqi and Afghanistan governments that were brought to light after the 9/11 tragedy.

The key word in the above quotation is After". These things were also known before 9/11, The USA only had no urge to deal with it, (The Taliban was irrelevant and having a good counter power against Iran was not so bad), and 9/11 provided a rude awakening. (and a chance to get more control over oil reserves).

It is probably the lack of interest of the US media (and for that matter also the Canadian) for things going on outside the country, unless it is of direct relevance to the US, that urged the statement you made.

Mind you, being informed is the conditio sine qua non to pass on judgement.

[NoOne]

Maybe I should have said "especially after" instead of just "after", I think the turmoil between countries in the middle east has been going on for so long that it would actually have been news if it had stopped, and that it is the reason it was "ignored"

You may very well be correct in your comment concerning U.S. and Canadian media only showing what is relevant to our own interests. I honestly cannot argue for or against that comment.

I do not subscribe to the notion, that action was taken to gain control over oil reserves ..... but I'm also not ready to rule it out completely.

[henk4]

Originally posted by NoOne
I do not subscribe to the notion, that action was taken to gain control over oil reserves ..... but I'm also not ready to rule it out completely.

Well I think we can agree on the assumption that this was a pleasant sideffect of the military activities. But on the other hand judging how things are going now, real control seems to have been thrown out of the window.

[NoOne]

I was not so much passing judgement as I was expressing a personal opinion.

[NoOne]

Originally posted by henk4
Well I think we can agree on the assumption that this was a pleasant sideffect of the military activities. But on the other judging how things are going now, real control seems to have been thrown out of the window.

Agreed wholeheartedly

[henk4]

Originally posted by NoOne
I was not so much passing judgement as I was expressing a personal opinion.

any judgement is personal IMHO

[NoOne]

In light that English is my only language, it appears I'm not very good at it :) . I was actually trying to distinguish between my own belief and reasoning that may sway anothers opinion.

Starting to confuse myself now:D

[henk4]

Originally posted by NoOne
In light that English is my only language, it appears I'm not very good at it :) . I was actually trying to distinguish between my own belief and reasoning that may sway anothers opinion.

Starting to confuse myself now:D

no sweat, English is not my own language and my mistakes are manifold

[Misho]

Originally posted by NoOne
My apologies Misho, after reading your response to my post and then re-reading my post I realized how vague and abrupt my statement was.

---no problem !


At 35 I know not to believe word for word what western media expects us to believe as far as anti-middle east propaganda. Afterall, there is no perfect government, but there is no denying the coruptness and inhumanities of the Iraqi and Afghanistan governments that were brought to light after the 9/11 tragedy. It is my own belief/opinion that someone had to end that particular tyranny, and the U.S.A. was probably alone in being up to that task.

---Then why doesnt the united states get involved in the israeli-palestinian conflict? or didnt involve as much in the serbian war? or even worse, why didnt it solve the north korean nuclear bomb issue?
what i mean to say, is that the USA only gets involved in situations it can use for its own sake. wether its oil, military presence, political control or any other reason. please lets not forget that the states could have prevented all these troubles a long time ago. but it didnt. why didnt they remove saddam after the gulf war of 91? why did the help him against iran and help osama benladen against russia? for god's sake , why didnt they even catch them until today ??? is it to keep using that as an execuse for future invasions ?


Don't get me wrong, I do not think the U.S.A. is without its own faults, it is a shame that the most powerful country in the world is trying to solve everyone else's problems, yet still has people living in the street and kids going to school hungry. As the saying goes ..."take care of your own backyard first".

---no country is perfect. and that despite the fact that the states has enough money to provide every american citizen with a decent life, actually enough money and resources to make every person in the world enjoy a decent life.

I would also like to state that my support of the U.S.A.'s actions is purely political and I have no prejudice against the Muslim faith.

---i hope most people realise that Islam is not to blame for any of these stupid acts being done today. its a relegion of peace that has been given a bad image by stupid extremists and that image has been much enlarged by the western media.

Again, I apologise for the misunderstanding, the entire point of my original post was to bring attention to the treatment of the U.S. troops who risk life and limb serving their country and to an extent the world.

---again no problem :)

[crisis]

Perhaps if the UN wasnt so impotent the US would not have to take the action it does. It is not desirable for one country to assume a policemans role in world politics. The mess in Iraq leaves me with little wonder as to how someone like Saddam came to power in the first place. Power can only be siezed by the most ruthless and strong. How can they now hope to see a democratically elected government with so many religious fruitcakes sabotaging the process. Muslim are fighting each other! How can Iraq ever hope to achieve internal stability when there are people who put there beliefs above humanity and common sense.

[megotmea7]

Originally posted by BiTurbo
Hey mego -
what's 'MoVal'
:confused:
Moreno Valley;)

[Misho]

Originally posted by crisis
Perhaps if the UN wasnt so impotent the US would not have to take the action it does. It is not desirable for one country to assume a policemans role in world politics.

---I beleive that the US is responsible for the impotence of the UN. I think that was clearly demonstrated when the US refused to obey to the UN's orders of not going into Iraq without any strong evidence. The UN is not there only to control small and 3rd world countries, what it decides must be followed by the bigger countries too. Anyways, it is more than obvious that all these international organisations, such the UN, world bank, NATO, international court (is that the name for it??) are mostly controlled by the US.

The mess in Iraq leaves me with little wonder as to how someone like Saddam came to power in the first place. Power can only be siezed by the most ruthless and strong. How can they now hope to see a democratically elected government with so many religious fruitcakes sabotaging the process. Muslim are fighting each other!

---I am not sure what exactly do you mean? It sounds very vaque.

How can Iraq ever hope to achieve internal stability when there are people who put there beliefs above humanity and common sense.

---This happens all over the world in many countries and they most have internal stability. Since when does this mean they cannot achieve stability? Or what can they do then in that case to achive it ?

[crisis]

How can a democratic process run with people feeling free to express their choices when they have to duck for cover. Extreme fundamentalist groups exercise their terror to surpress the more moderate. The most radical are the ones who make the biggest noise and as such force their will against the meek. Why would an average family person risk his life to make a stand when all he would probably wish for now is to at least have a peacful existence for his family. People like Saddam come to power because they intimidate or destroy their opposition.

By beliefs I mean religious beliefs. Most countries ruled by religious leaders seem to be quite oppressive. Western countries which are seemingly more moderate are less affected by this.

[Misho]

Originally posted by crisis
How can a democratic process run with people feeling free to express their choices when they have to duck for cover. Extreme fundamentalist groups exercise their terror to surpress the more moderate. The most radical are the ones who make the biggest noise and as such force their will against the meek. Why would an average family person risk his life to make a stand when all he would probably wish for now is to at least have a peacful existence for his family. People like Saddam come to power because they intimidate or destroy their opposition.

----Unability to express one's self and political beleifs is the case with almost all 3rd world countries, which is very unfortunate in a way. I still dont see what is it that countries like the USA have to do with it ? Is this a justification to invade these places ? Anyways, its obvious that you dont want to address any of my point mentioned in my recent posts in this thread!! Its up to you though !

By beliefs I mean religious beliefs. Most countries ruled by religious leaders seem to be quite oppressive. Western countries which are seemingly more moderate are less affected by this.

----The only country ruled by a religious leader i know of is Iran. And its a choice that was pretty much made and accepted by the people themselves during the Islamic revolution a while ago.

[crisis]

Originally posted by Misho

Im not sure what you mean when you say you dont see what countries like the USA have to do with expressing political beliefs. Im also not sure what else I was supposed to address but will be happy to.

----The only country ruled by a religious leader i know of is Iran. And its a choice that was pretty much made and accepted by the people themselves during the Islamic revolution a while ago.

Was that unanimous revolution or made by way of a fair vote? I know someone who escaped Iran after the revolution after his wife was killed. Im pretty sure he didnt vote for it. Does'nt Saudi Arabia administer its law in accordance with Islamic teachings. You know, having arms removed for stealing etc.

[Misho]

Originally posted by crisis
Im not sure what you mean when you say you dont see what countries like the USA have to do with expressing political beliefs. Im also not sure what else I was supposed to address but will be happy to.

---- pretty much anything about the USA having nuthin to do with other countrie's internal policies and only offering so-called help when something can be won in return !!


Was that unanimous revolution or made by way of a fair vote? I know someone who escaped Iran after the revolution after his wife was killed. Im pretty sure he didnt vote for it. Does'nt Saudi Arabia administer its law in accordance with Islamic teachings. You know, having arms removed for stealing etc.

---- i know that there were some bad issues associated with the iranian revolution, just as is the case with any reveloution that took place in history. and i am not defending it anyways, i was just stating that it was what the people wanted. as for the voting thind u mentioned , i dont really what u mean by a voted revolution ?!!
as for saudi arabia, they are not ruled by an islamic leader, but their constitution is based on the islamic laws of Sharia'a. This is a very major difference here. This is one of the points that is mostly misunderstood by the west due to media mis-representation. Islamic laws, if followed correctly, will lead to a perfect society, a utopia basically. what happens, is just like any other beleif, it cannot be followed 100% correctly by 100% of the people. and this is when wrong actions, like 9/11, start to happen and so on.
u can sort of think of it as socialism. many people could argue that it had the perfect solution to everything (and there is no denying that it had great ideas and concepts), but with internal corruption and external pressure to break it down, we all know what happened to socialim.
Islam is now being though of by most of the west as socialism was some years ago. it is considered their enemy, and has to be crushed. aided by the corrupt and extremists, the media was able to fabricate a complex negative idea or image to the western community.
i could really go on and on about this , but ill just try and stick to answering questions and clarifying wrong beleifs, for all users's sake !!

[crisis]

"as for saudi arabia, they are not ruled by an islamic leader, but their constitution is based on the islamic laws of Sharia'a. This is a very major difference here."

Theres not really. In the end my point was that ruling a country by any religious law is undesirable. Religions are based on ancient philiosophies that while relevant to some , do not always reflect current realities. That there are so many religions and so many variations of each, and as you stated , that they enable the faithful to be manipulted means that it can make life for those who do not follow those beliefs anything fro unpleasant ot deadly.

"Islam is now being though of by most of the west as socialism was some years ago. it is considered their enemy, and has to be crushed. aided by the corrupt and extremists, the media was able to fabricate a complex negative idea or image to the western community."

Islam gets bad press from the disturbingly large amount of people who are eager to use it as their excuse for genocide. I doubt that most average Western people could care less about someone elses religion but when terrorist leaders use Islam as the rallying point for their fanatics, you cant blame some people for associating it with terrorism. You may blame the press and I'll admit it makes good copy, but where theres smoke thers fire. I genuinely feel for Muslims who are affected by the acts of these sickos. Its important for people like you to promote your point of view.

"pretty much anything about the USA having nuthin to do with other countrie's internal policies and only offering so-called help when something can be won in return !! "

this could go round in circles but Im not really interested in being an apologist for the US

[Misho]

Originally posted by crisis
[B
In the end my point was that ruling a country by any religious law is undesirable. Religions are based on ancient philiosophies that while relevant to some , do not always reflect current realities.

---- i TOTALLY disagree with you on that. God-send relegions were meant for all times and can always be used as a basis of judgement regardless of time, place, location . . .
I dont wanna get off the main thread topic here, but if u want, you can open a Relegion thread !!

That there are so many religions and so many variations of each, and as you stated , that they enable the faithful to be manipulted means that it can make life for those who do not follow those beliefs anything from unpleasant to deadly.

---- Not sure what you mean here, but ok !


Islam gets bad press from the disturbingly large amount of people who are eager to use it as their excuse for genocide.

---- As a matter of fact, those people you mentioned are a very small fraction of all muslims, which by the way make up for 1.25 billion people. Its the extremely biased westerm media that relates any crime or offence done by a muslim into an islamic questioning. i've never heard of christianity being brought up when any of these white serial killers goes on a rampage and kills tens of innocent people in the states. on the contrary, anything done by a muslim is the result of islam, at least thats how the media shows it. an example here would be that washington DC sniper case. you open CNN during that news and all you hear is "Mohammed" "Islam" "Terrorism" and pretty much nuthin about the case. so now can anyone blame something like the Oklahoma State bombing on christianity ?? they dont even call it terrorism, they call it violence or crime or ...

I doubt that most average Western people could care less about someone elses religion but when terrorist leaders use Islam as the rallying point for their fanatics, you cant blame some people for associating it with terrorism.

---- Actually it seems that one of the problems is that western people in general and americans specially, are very ignorant on many topics. namely, anything related to international affairs, weather its geography or politics. not sure why, but that seems to be the case in general. thus, anything their media says is all they know. not sure if the government and media have something to do with it or not ?! or is that being way too suspicious !! :)


You may blame the press and I'll admit it makes good copy, but where theres smoke thers fire.

---- thats true. but then again, we could go in circles talking about even how this "smoke" around Islam was pretty much either "made-up" or caused by western governments and their racist regimes.

I genuinely feel for Muslims who are affected by the acts of these sickos. Its important for people like you to promote your point of view.

---- its really sad. i personally try promoting my point of view over something like these forums, although i doubt it will ever reach as many people as CNN !! :)


this could go round in circles but Im not really interested in being an apologist for the US

---- i just though u might want to defend your country !! i guess ur not american then! i dont really read those "location" inputs below users' names !!

[/B]

[bballmikey105]

congratulations chevysucks on making such a HUGE thread

[BiTurbo]

Originally posted by bballmikey105
congratulations chevysucks on making such a HUGE thread
congratulations 'ballmikey' on making such a HUGE contribution to the HUGE thread started by 'chevysucks' (which they don't by the way, chevy's that is):confused:

[crisis]

---- i TOTALLY disagree with you on that. God-send relegions were meant for all times and can always be used as a basis of judgement regardless of time, place, location . . .
I dont wanna get off the main thread topic here, but if u want, you can open a Relegion thread !!

CRISIS- This is fine if you are religious of course. The problem is there are so many interpretations/denominations of the same thing. If the belivers cant agree, how can anyone else be expected to understand. I agree many religious teachings revolving around peace and goodwill are important to any society but certain passage of the bible for example preach things that if taken literally promote questionable acts.

That there are so many religions and so many variations of each, and as you stated , that they enable the faithful to be manipulted means that it can make life for those who do not follow those beliefs anything from unpleasant to deadly.

---- Not sure what you mean here, but ok !

CRISIS- What I mean for example is a story I read about a Saudi whos job it was to cut of peoples heads and other parts for transgressing their particular understanding of Muslim law. Too bad if you aint a Muslim, or otherwise really.


Islam gets bad press from the disturbingly large amount of people who are eager to use it as their excuse for genocide.

---- As a matter of fact, those people you mentioned are a very small fraction of all muslims, which by the way make up for 1.25 billion people. Its the extremely biased westerm media that relates any crime or offence done by a muslim into an islamic questioning. i've never heard of christianity being brought up when any of these white serial killers goes on a rampage and kills tens of innocent people in the states. on the contrary, anything done by a muslim is the result of islam, at least thats how the media shows it. an example here would be that washington DC sniper case. you open CNN during that news and all you hear is "Mohammed" "Islam" "Terrorism" and pretty much nuthin about the case. so now can anyone blame something like the Oklahoma State bombing on christianity ?? they dont even call it terrorism, they call it violence or crime or ...

CRISIS- Unfortunately the very small fraction is still a lrge number. Enough to mobilise small terrorist armies anyway. Not just one either. I agree Western press rarely attribute crimes committed by Christians as Christian acts. Then again I dont know if thats because they are not committed in the name of their religion or not. Im sure their are Muslims that commit crimes of their own volition and not in the name of their religion. The press would not attribute their crimes to Islam. Especially in Australia (thats where I live) they are very frightened of upsetting minority ethnic and religious groups.

I doubt that most average Western people could care less about someone elses religion but when terrorist leaders use Islam as the rallying point for their fanatics, you cant blame some people for associating it with terrorism.

---- Actually it seems that one of the problems is that western people in general and americans specially, are very ignorant on many topics. namely, anything related to international affairs, weather its geography or politics. not sure why, but that seems to be the case in general. thus, anything their media says is all they know. not sure if the government and media have something to do with it or not ?! or is that being way too suspicious !!

CRISIS- I dont know if it is a problemnot knowing the ins and outs of everyone elses business. I know what you mena but can anyone really be expected to understand the idiosyncracies of all other cultures and religions. Live and let live.

You may blame the press and I'll admit it makes good copy, but where theres smoke thers fire.

---- thats true. but then again, we could go in circles talking about even how this "smoke" around Islam was pretty much either "made-up" or caused by western governments and their racist regimes.

CRISIS- Westerners dont have a mortgage on racism. Dr Mahatir from Malaysia recently said Australia cannot be considered part of Asia because we dont have a high enough percentage of Asians living here. You can attack that comment from many ways. He once called us the "white trash of Asia." There are Arabs that regularly Denounce "The West" as though it is an all encompassing group of like minded people. You want to see the protesters here that are against the war in Iraq, the detention of illegal immigrants etc. Our govenrment allows imprts into Australia without any tarrif protection despite the heavy tarrifs applied by our Asian trading partners.

[Misho]

Originally posted by crisis


CRISIS- This is fine if you are religious of course. The problem is there are so many interpretations/denominations of the same thing. If the belivers cant agree, how can anyone else be expected to understand. I agree many religious teachings revolving around peace and goodwill are important to any society but certain passage of the bible for example preach things that if taken literally promote questionable acts.

---- no comment here !! not sure if its coz im lazy, didnt really understand what you mean or just coz there is really no comment here !! :)


CRISIS- What I mean for example is a story I read about a Saudi whos job it was to cut of peoples heads and other parts for transgressing their particular understanding of Muslim law. Too bad if you aint a Muslim, or otherwise really.

---- well, someone has to do it !! just like someone has to turn on the electric chair, give you the lethal injection or pull the ground under your feet !! as we discussed earlier, saudi arabia is a country who's law is based on the islamic sharia'a. (weather thats right or wrong). islamic law states that the method of enforcing the death sentance is by cutting the head off. and the guy is just doing his job. the only other law is Islam that states cutting of body parts, would be the punishment for stealing. in which case u get ur hands cut off. and before you even ask, NO u dont see people walking around in saudi arabia without hands !! :)

CRISIS- Unfortunately the very small fraction is still a lrge number. Enough to mobilise small terrorist armies anyway. Not just one either. I agree Western press rarely attribute crimes committed by Christians as Christian acts. Then again I dont know if thats because they are not committed in the name of their religion or not. Im sure their are Muslims that commit crimes of their own volition and not in the name of their religion.

---- I have been very hesitant in stating this coz u probably would just consider it as ridicilous (like most westerners). one of the very strong and well talked about thoughts in the middle east, is that people like Osama BinLaden and Saddam are actually american allies. its through them that the states gave itself permission to invade all arab countries and will continue to do so for a long time to come. if u dont actually think its ridicilous, then i will be more than happy to give u more insight !

The press would not attribute their crimes to Islam. Especially in Australia (thats where I live) they are very frightened of upsetting minority ethnic and religious groups.


---- well , obviously places like Canada and Australia where there is a big minority population, things are better than the states where there are very small percentages of arabs and the like.


CRISIS- I dont know if it is a problemnot knowing the ins and outs of everyone elses business. I know what you mena but can anyone really be expected to understand the idiosyncracies of all other cultures and religions. Live and let live.

---- ofcourse not. but at least have the minimum amount of knowledge. people here still ask if the middle east is all desert and camels. are there cars in the middle east ? do people live in tents there ?? these are some of the questions ur typical canadian will ask about the middle east. have u ever seen pics of Dubai , Egypt, Lebanon . . . ?
as i mentioned somewhere earlier, i have been to many places around the world and i can truly assure u that north americans are extremely ignorant about anything out of their borders.


CRISIS- Westerners dont have a mortgage on racism. Dr Mahatir from Malaysia recently said Australia cannot be considered part of Asia because we dont have a high enough percentage of Asians living here.

---- how dumb is that exactly ?? :)

You can attack that comment from many ways. He once called us the "white trash of Asia." There are Arabs that regularly Denounce "The West" as though it is an all encompassing group of like minded people.

---- r u saying that Mahatir is Arabic or middle eastern ? there is a difference between saying arab and saying muslim. the first is geographic/cultural identity while the other is a relegion.

You want to see the protesters here that are against the war in Iraq, the detention of illegal immigrants etc. Our govenrment allows imprts into Australia without any tarrif protection despite the heavy tarrifs applied by our Asian trading partners.

---- no comment here !! not sure if its coz im lazy, didnt really understand what you mean or just coz there is really no comment here !! :)

[crisis]

I do enjoy our little chats. Nothing like exercising the mind.

Lets go.

CRISIS- What I mean for example is a story I read about a Saudi whos job it was to cut of peoples heads and other parts for transgressing their particular understanding of Muslim law. Too bad if you aint a Muslim, or otherwise really.

---- well, someone has to do it !!
not sure if anyone should really. My point is, does someones/groups religion entitle them to dismember people for petty crimes. Capital punishment is performed in some countries for murder and serious crimes. I kind of agree with despatching with murders, child molesters etc but I find it a little excessive to remove limbs for stealing. Especially in the name of religion. What they are saying is because it says in a book written 100's/1000's (ignorance admission) of years ago that thou shalt not do whatever, we must make no judgement as to the validity of fairness of that writing and behave as someone saw fit back then."
as we discussed earlier, saudi arabia is a country who's law is based on the islamic sharia'a. (weather thats right or wrong).
that is one of my points. Which version is right and which is wrong. To base government and law on a version of a religion kind of leaves you vunerable to selecting the wrong one. The result is you kill someone or go to war against someone based on a possibly inaccurate interpretation.
islamic law states that the method of enforcing the death sentance is by cutting the head off. and the guy is just doing his job. the only other law is Islam that states cutting of body parts, would be the punishment for stealing. in which case u get ur hands cut off. do you think this is reasonable?

CRISIS- Unfortunately the very small fraction is still a lrge number. Enough to mobilise small terrorist armies anyway. Not just one either. I agree Western press rarely attribute crimes committed by Christians as Christian acts. Then again I dont know if thats because they are not committed in the name of their religion or not. Im sure their are Muslims that commit crimes of their own volition and not in the name of their religion.

---- I have been very hesitant in stating this coz u probably would just consider it as ridicilous (like most westerners). one of the very strong and well talked about thoughts in the middle east, is that people like Osama BinLaden and Saddam are actually american allies. its through them that the states gave itself permission to invade all arab countries and will continue to do so for a long time to come. if u dont actually think its ridicilous, then i will be more than happy to give u more insight !
mmmm, conspiracy theories. Where do we start and where do we finish. It would be a little difficult to maintain a ruse of this magnitude seeing that the US couldnt even cover up the Oliver North thing. Not saying impossible but if you go down the conspiracy track you wont be able to believe anything.Please dont refer me the French story of the lack of evidence of aircraft at the Pentagon Sept 11th site.

CRISIS- Westerners dont have a mortgage on racism. Dr Mahatir from Malaysia recently said Australia cannot be considered part of Asia because we dont have a high enough percentage of Asians living here.

---- how dumb is that exactly ??

You can attack that comment from many ways. He once called us the "white trash of Asia." There are Arabs that regularly Denounce "The West" as though it is an all encompassing group of like minded people.

---- r u saying that Mahatir is Arabic or middle eastern ? there is a difference between saying arab and saying muslim. the first is geographic/cultural identity while the other is a relegion.

neither, just saying that white ass anglos arent the only ones who are racist. In fact here in Oz it is socially unacceptable to be seen as such in most circles unless you are a self confessed redneck.

[Misho]

Originally posted by crisis

I do enjoy our little chats. Nothing like exercising the mind.

---- sure !!

Lets go.

---- lets just hope ur ready, coz ur in for a lonnnnnnng ride !!

not sure if anyone should really. My point is, does someones/groups religion entitle them to dismember people for petty crimes. Capital punishment is performed in some countries for murder and serious crimes. I kind of agree with despatching with murders, child molesters etc but I find it a little excessive to remove limbs for stealing. Especially in the name of religion.

---- well thats just the way it is over there. obviously to a non-muslim u might think its too much. just like some people think that the death sentence is too much even for killers and child molesters (who i think should be tortured AND then killed). so what they do, is give them life in prison! which is a lot worse in my own opinion that the death sentence !!


What they are saying is because it says in a book written 100's/1000's (ignorance admission) of years ago that thou shalt not do whatever, we must make no judgement as to the validity of fairness of that writing and behave as someone saw fit back then."

---- u got me a little mixed up here !! if ur talking about the Quran, than that was started to get revealed around 1430 years ago, and ofcourse took some time to get finished.
if only u studied the Quran and Islamic teachings in depth and understood it correctly, you will be surprised by how great it truly is.

that is one of my points. Which version is right and which is wrong. To base government and law on a version of a religion kind of leaves you vunerable to selecting the wrong one. The result is you kill someone or go to war against someone based on a possibly inaccurate interpretation.

---- u might not notice it, but any law is somewhat based on relegion. thats pretty much why we have a punishment for stealing, pedophiles, rape . . . u might argue that these laws are more socially-oriented. but i beleive that there basis is pretty much, even though loosely based on relegion.


islamic law states that the method of enforcing the death sentance is by cutting the head off. and the guy is just doing his job. the only other law is Islam that states cutting of body parts, would be the punishment for stealing. in which case u get ur hands cut off. do you think this is reasonable?

---- i personally thikn they are perfectly reasonable. by the way, there is absolutely nothing that Islam dictates that i don't fully beleive in and think is correct. i'm not a relegiou guy or anything by the way (which is sad really), but i do understand my relegion and fully beleive in it.
so next time ur in saudi arabia, how hesitant will u be to steal ??
exactly my point.
i know u might say something like "what about if the penalty for speeding is cutting ur right foot??". but just think of it deeply please.


mmmm, conspiracy theories. Where do we start and where do we finish. It would be a little difficult to maintain a ruse of this magnitude seeing that the US couldnt even cover up the Oliver North thing. Not saying impossible but if you go down the conspiracy track you wont be able to believe anything.Please dont refer me the French story of the lack of evidence of aircraft at the Pentagon Sept 11th site.


i have no idea what ur talking about ?? what french story?
anyways, i dont think the US did provide any reasonable info regarding Binladen, 9/11, invasion of Iraq or Saddam.



neither, just saying that white ass anglos arent the only ones who are racist. In fact here in Oz it is socially unacceptable to be seen as such in most circles unless you are a self confessed redneck.

---- well its the same over here. but u cant deny the existnce of racism in Canada. i heard its the same (actually worse) in Australia , and thats by arab people living in Australia. i dont really take other people's words on such matter, so i wont comment on that.
but ofcourse racism is not just practised by white anglos (which i assume you are :) ). but ill have to say its mainly talked about in multi cultural communities (like Canada and Aust) as being practised on minorities there. not sure if its coz of the Hitler thing or not, but thats the way it is !!

[crisis]

---- well thats just the way it is over there.
Saying thats the way it is over there or thats the law , to me is not a justification. Nazi Germany had a couple of laws too. So do many countries, even ours , which I dont agree with. To take someones life of injure or dismember them is to me a radical step. To justify it based on religious teachings written many years ago is not acceptable to me. I suppose we differ here. But if you base laws on teaching that are 100s of years old, and I include the Bible and any religious writings, relieves the lawmakers/government of thinking for themselves. Sometimes I think thats why some people are religious.

What they are saying is because it says in a book written 100's/1000's (ignorance admission) of years ago that thou shalt not do whatever, we must make no judgement as to the validity of fairness of that writing and behave as someone saw fit back then."

---- u got me a little mixed up here !! if ur talking about the Quran, than that was started to get revealed around 1430 years ago, and ofcourse took some time to get finished.
if only u studied the Quran and Islamic teachings in depth and understood it correctly, you will be surprised by how great it truly is.
Im talking about any religious book or scripture. My view on the bible for example is that it was written for an audience at a particular time and would have been written in a way that was relevent to the audience. It would have contained language, concepts and cultural idiosyncracies representative of its time and place. The way we speak and language we use now is different from even 50 years ago. Certain words and concepts creep in and out of popular culture. Some people (including me) struggle with Shakespheare, who wrote in English (supposedly) and poetry also requires deciphering within the realms of the time and place it was created. Our understanding of life with relation to other living things is different now. Look at how we think of whales and dolphins now we understand them a little more. They would have been big fish 100 years ago. Some people would disagree but generally the more enlightened believe all humans to be the same despite colour race etc. It has been proven genetically. 100 years ago anglos would not have held this view. When we read a scripture written over a thousand years ago in a language that no one uses anymore, to a civilisation that has long passed, it seems to me to be highly unlikely we will ever understand the exact meaning and therefore it is not reasonable to act according to the exact letter of those writings. Deep, I know, I think we've scared everyone else off. Still awake?

---- u might not notice it, but any law is somewhat based on relegion. thats pretty much why we have a punishment for stealing, pedophiles, rape . . . u might argue that these laws are more socially-oriented. but i beleive that there basis is pretty much, even though loosely based on relegion.

Its a bit of chicken and the egg. Does religion reflect society or society reflect religion? You are right to an extent Im sure. I think that "thou shalt not kill" is probably buried deep within all humans makeup. Even murderers generally would know this I would think. It is also probably why terrorist types use religion to justify their actions.

islamic law states that the method of enforcing the death sentance is by cutting the head off. and the guy is just doing his job. the only other law is Islam that states cutting of body parts, would be the punishment for stealing. in which case u get ur hands cut off. do you think this is reasonable?

---- i personally thikn they are perfectly reasonable. by the way, there is absolutely nothing that Islam dictates that i don't fully beleive in and think is correct. i'm not a relegiou guy or anything by the way (which is sad really), but i do understand my relegion and fully beleive in it.
so next time ur in saudi arabia, how hesitant will u be to steal ??
exactly my point.
i know u might say something like "what about if the penalty for speeding is cutting ur right foot??". but just think of it deeply please.
I must admit , even thinkin about it deeply I cannot agree but I think I slaughtered that point earlier on.


i have no idea what ur talking about ?? what french story?
anyways, i dont think the US did provide any reasonable info regarding Binladen, 9/11, invasion of Iraq or Saddam.
I dont know what evidence you want about Bin Laden. Either the tapes he keeps sending are real or not I suppose. Regardless there have been enough bombings since to make clear there are poeple who support his ideas.

Here are a couple of links to the French story I was talking about
http://www.humanunderground.com/11september/pent.html
this is the best one.
http://www.asile.org/citoyens/numero13/pentagone/erreurs_en.htm

---- well its the same over here. but u cant deny the existnce of racism in Canada. i heard its the same (actually worse) in Australia , and thats by arab people living in Australia. i dont really take other people's words on such matter, so i wont comment on that.
As I said before , I feel sorry for the implication that these events has had on Muslims and I extend this to Arabs. I have a friend from Iran. I know it is wrong to judge Arabs and Muslims because of the actions of the few but human nature always fears what it doesnt understand. I place much of the blame on the nut jobs themselves who perpetrate acts of terrorism in the name of their religion and country. They have contributed to the suffering of not only there desired victims but of many of their compatriots. They have also managed to divide the world in a way that has not been seen since the cold war. Damn them to hell (whatever that is)

[Misho]

Originally posted by crisis

Saying thats the way it is over there or thats the law , to me is not a justification. Nazi Germany had a couple of laws too. So do many countries, even ours , which I dont agree with. To take someones life of injure or dismember them is to me a radical step.

---- and u said in ur last post that its ok with u if they impose the death sentence on murderers, child molesters and the such. which is exactly what they do all over the world not just in saudi arabia which seems to be ur most hated country!. i dont know of a place where u get the death sentence for any "small" crimes. im not sure if ur contradicting urself or u just got me mixed up.

To justify it based on religious teachings written many years ago is not acceptable to me. I suppose we differ here. But if you base laws on teaching that are 100s of years old, and I include the Bible and any religious writings, relieves the lawmakers/government of thinking for themselves. Sometimes I think thats why some people are religious.

---- we more than differ here !! im not sure what exactly is ur background, beleifs, study of relegion and all that. all i know for sure is one thing. when a relegion/book tells u stuff like not to steal, work hard, never harm anyone, help the poor, stay clean, . . .(u get the idea). and also NEVER tells u anything that might cause harm to anyone, who on earth would that not be valid today ?? i dont care what language it was written in, or where it was revealed. its just telling me to everything good and avoid anything bad. and there is no need to define good or bad as they are clear as crystal.
the results u see today of the breaking up of most relegions, is due to human mis-interpretations or extremism. for that u dont blame the source. u blame the people.
u might say, well all relegions tell u to be good. and to that my reply is, coz most relegions are God-send. and they are basically very similar in basis. man, i saw a tv documentary about a group of people that worship Penises. why ? because thats the source of life, at least thats their justification. there are people in Argentina that worship Maradonna. they say he is God. so if i make up a relegion and then go kill some people, then u can blame the relegion. but when its obvious that what im doing is wrong according to my relegion, then u can blame me for that.


Im talking about any religious book or scripture. My view on the bible for example is that it was written for an audience at a particular time and would have been written in a way that was relevent to the audience. It would have contained language, concepts and cultural idiosyncracies representative of its time and place. The way we speak and language we use now is different from even 50 years ago. Certain words and concepts creep in and out of popular culture. Some people (including me) struggle with Shakespheare, who wrote in English (supposedly) and poetry also requires deciphering within the realms of the time and place it was created. Our understanding of life with relation to other living things is different now. Look at how we think of whales and dolphins now we understand them a little more. They would have been big fish 100 years ago. Some people would disagree but generally the more enlightened believe all humans to be the same despite colour race etc. It has been proven genetically. 100 years ago anglos would not have held this view. When we read a scripture written over a thousand years ago in a language that no one uses anymore, to a civilisation that has long passed, it seems to me to be highly unlikely we will ever understand the exact meaning and therefore it is not reasonable to act according to the exact letter of those writings. Deep, I know, I think we've scared everyone else off. Still awake?


Its a bit of chicken and the egg. Does religion reflect society or society reflect religion? You are right to an extent Im sure. I think that "thou shalt not kill" is probably buried deep within all humans makeup. Even murderers generally would know this I would think. It is also probably why terrorist types use religion to justify their actions.

---- maybe. and maybe not.


I must admit , even thinkin about it deeply I cannot agree but I think I slaughtered that point earlier on.

---- just when u though u had me done, i come up with an even more convincing come-back !!! :)


I dont know what evidence you want about Bin Laden. Either the tapes he keeps sending are real or not I suppose. Regardless there have been enough bombings since to make clear there are poeple who support his ideas.

---- actually the question is what evidence have they given? video tapes of a guy they supported 20 years ago?? u know they are what made BinLaden, why should i trust them now when they say he is bad. they gave him money, weapons, support, troops and everything he wanted to fight the USSR in afghanistan.
they didnt even mention where they got the tapes. at least that is what they said about teh first tape to surface accusing him of 9/11. they were like "the tape was found". i'm sorry but that doesnt just cut it for me. at least in following tapes (wether real or fabricated) they say that the tape was sent to Al-Jazeera tv by osama himself.

Here are a couple of links to the French story I was talking about
http://www.humanunderground.com/11september/pent.html
this is the best one.
http://www.asile.org/citoyens/numero13/pentagone/erreurs_en.htm

---- if only u could understand arabic, i could have sent u like a million links about 9/11 !! :)

As I said before , I feel sorry for the implication that these events has had on Muslims and I extend this to Arabs. I have a friend from Iran. I know it is wrong to judge Arabs and Muslims because of the actions of the few but human nature always fears what it doesnt understand. I place much of the blame on the nut jobs themselves who perpetrate acts of terrorism in the name of their religion and country. They have contributed to the suffering of not only there desired victims but of many of their compatriots. They have also managed to divide the world in a way that has not been seen since the cold war.

---- i can assure you that this will be a lot worse than the cold war. at least back then, there was someone capable of standing up to the US. nowadays, they just do whatever they want without any though to other countries' opinions. i think the UN and all that crap is just a waste of time and money really.

Damn them to hell (whatever that is)

---- i beleive to you that would be Saudi Arabia !!! :D

[BiTurbo]

and speaking about Mahathir -

"You could have picked it couldn’t you – Mahathir Mohamad, Malaysia’s offensive pain-in-the-backside doddering old goat (no relation by the way ) – is trying to stick it up the West again.

Firstly he’s trotted out the old Nazi line of “Jews rule the World” – to much tut-tutting from responsible leaders - and has got a taste again for getting his name in the news and dopey face on the TV.

So, who did the crabby mouth from up north pick for his next target (you could have put a million bucks on it) but Australia of course.

Now the Moron from Malaysia has taken a few new shots at our beloved Prime Monster John Howard, newly elected sheriff of the region by another bit of a duffer George Dubya Bush.

Malaysia Moron says if Australia plays sheriff then we will be treated and dealt with as terrorists.

Coming from a fogie who has terrorized democracy in his own country that’s a bit of a laugh.

But the real reason he launches broadside after ineffective broadside at us comes down to one thing – jealousy.

It must seriously piss Malaysia Moron off that a few hundred years ago a few ships with we Europeans in sailed down looking for a nice place to set up camp.

We stopped for a bit of a barbeque and beach party somewhere off what-would-become Malaysia, took in the surrounds and decided that it wasn’t good enough for us.

So we packed up our bags, whistled God Save the King and continued south until we discovered God’s chosen land of Australia.

We could see such promise in the great sunburnt country that even the mild appeal of a pork satay under a palm tree did not appeal.

Then again, maybe we knew that in a couple of hundred years someone like Malaysia Moron would come along and be a burst haemorrhoid.

You know, people called old Malaysia Moron unbalanced, which is unfair. Anyone can see he has a chip on both shoulders.

Unfortunately, our Sheriff John is too nice a guy to say what he really thinks of Malaysia Moron, however, I have offered to respond for him. Here it is.

Dear MM, You are a fool. You are pathetic and so is your country. Your insignificance offends us. Go away and die. Quickly.

Yours in deepest loathing,

Grumpy Old Coot,
Special Diplomatic Envoy,
Australia.

PS. Is it true about you and that goat??????????"

these are not my words -
but I sure as hell agree with it:)

[Misho]

not sure if the point of that post is to get me to comment on it.

[Misho]

ah well , looks like even my pal "crisis" could bored of this thread !! what a loss. :rolleyes:

[henk4]

Well Misho, I tried to pick up the gist of your exchange of opinions with Crisis, but unfortunately it is very difficult reading with the way the quotes and the new comments are intertwined. It more or less forces you to read everything twice or thrice, and you loose track very quickly. It can only be followed by the persons actively involved in the exchange, and that is only you two.
What was defintely lacking was a US contribution to it, but it might be that the level was too high.

May be we should stop this one here and think of a new, but related, subject.

[BiTurbo]

Originally posted by henk4
Well Misho,




What was defintely lacking was a US contribution to it, but it might be that the level was too high.

May be we should stop this one here and think of a new, but related, subject.

Take your own advice

[Misho]

Originally posted by henk4
Well Misho, I tried to pick up the gist of your exchange of opinions with Crisis, but unfortunately it is very difficult reading with the way the quotes and the new comments are intertwined. It more or less forces you to read everything twice or thrice, and you loose track very quickly. It can only be followed by the persons actively involved in the exchange, and that is only you two.

---- i know what u mean. its unfortunate, but it had to be done this way !!

What was defintely lacking was a US contribution to it, but it might be that the level was too high.

---- what do u mean the level was too high ?!

May be we should stop this one here and think of a new, but related, subject.

---- ahh man !! we wanted to keep this one alive. but if u have anything related that is interesting, then go ahead and start it.
anyways, i hope this message helped in demonstrating how me and crisis used to reply to eachother !!


:)

[DwZX35]

My first and last post on this thread

George Bush=not good

my reason: Strategery:D

[BiTurbo]

Originally posted by DwZX35
......................


............... Strategery.......

Uh?

[crisis]

---- we more than differ here !! im not sure what exactly is ur background, beleifs, study of relegion and all that. all i know for sure is one thing. when a relegion/book tells u stuff like not to steal, work hard, never harm anyone, help the poor, stay clean, . . .(u get the idea). and also NEVER tells u anything that might cause harm to anyone, who on earth would that not be valid today ?? i dont care what language it was written in, or where it was revealed. its just telling me to everything good and avoid anything bad. and there is no need to define good or bad as they are clear as crystal.
the results u see today of the breaking up of most relegions, is due to human mis-interpretations or extremism. for that u dont blame the source. u blame the people.
u might say, well all relegions tell u to be good. and to that my reply is, coz most relegions are God-send. and they are basically very similar in basis. man, i saw a tv documentary about a group of people that worship Penises. why ? because thats the source of life, at least thats their justification. there are people in Argentina that worship Maradonna. they say he is God. so if i make up a relegion and then go kill some people, then u can blame the relegion. but when its obvious that what im doing is wrong according to my relegion, then u can blame me for that.

I dont need religion or anyone else to tell me not to kill. Niether does most of the rest of the world. I have no issue with people referring to the writings of various religions if it commits them to this behaviour. Im more worried about socalled fudamentalists adhering to the more violent acts that they percieve to be the message in some of the teachings. Worshipping penises and Maradonna are fine. I worship tits and pussy myself.


I dont know what evidence you want about Bin Laden. Either the tapes he keeps sending are real or not I suppose. Regardless there have been enough bombings since to make clear there are poeple who support his ideas.

---- actually the question is what evidence have they given? video tapes of a guy they supported 20 years ago?? u know they are what made BinLaden, why should i trust them now when they say he is bad. they gave him money, weapons, support, troops and everything he wanted to fight the USSR in afghanistan.
they didnt even mention where they got the tapes. at least that is what they said about teh first tape to surface accusing him of 9/11. they were like "the tape was found". i'm sorry but that doesnt just cut it for me. at least in following tapes (wether real or fabricated) they say that the tape was sent to Al-Jazeera tv by osama himself.
Since you know Im not into defending the US I hope you see this objectively. I dont agree with arguments that go aling the lines that if you supported someone 20 years ago you are condemmed to support them forever no matter what they do. If I had a freind for 20 years who raped a child last week my freindship would be over. I dont know what to make of the tapes that the US produces. Im also not willing to take a side.


---- if only u could understand arabic, i could have sent u like a million links about 9/11 !!
I wish I could.

---- i can assure you that this will be a lot worse than the cold war. at least back then, there was someone capable of standing up to the US. nowadays, they just do whatever they want without any though to other countries' opinions. i think the UN and all that crap is just a waste of time and money really.
This will depend on the next US administration. Did you see the anti war protests in the US on the weekend.

Damn them to hell (whatever that is)

---- i beleive to you that would be Saudi Arabia !!!
I was going to rebuke that but on second thoughts, living in Saudi Arabia would be rather hellish for an agnostic like me.

[henk4]

Level too high?

My reference to the American absence in this threat (do we miss Chevysucks?) was made because participating actually requires thinking, and not only in terms of black and white.

Anyway to support Crisis, I am suspicious about anybody that in the name of some book (of questionable origin) declares that he knows what is good for others, and goes one step further by forcefully imposing this on others. In this way we may now want to criticise Islam, but if we go back into history there are numerous examples where in the name of Christianity freedom was severely violated. The Middle East had its own share during the Crusades. It appears that fundamental Christians in the USA are trying to revive that dark area of our civilisation.

[crisis]

When you have Christianity, Islam, Hindu, Buddhists, the various gods of American Indians, Australian Aborigines and other indigenous people through out the world, only one can actually be true at best. Naturally they all think its theirs. The only conclusion I can draw is that humans seek to explain that which they do not understand, such as the meaning of life/why/how am I here, by invoking metaphysical concepts. It doesnt seem adequate for many people to accept we just "are" or that we are a result of complex random chemical reactions. It seems to cheapen our existence. Who knows, one of them may be right. The only thing I believe is that we will never know.

[BiTurbo]

Originally posted by crisis


The only conclusion I can draw is that humans seek to explain that which they do not understand, such as the meaning of life/why/how am I here,
doesnt seem adequate for many people to accept we just "are" or that we are a result of complex random chemical reactions. It seems to cheapen our existence. Who knows,


At last -
a truth - (maybe not THE truth :))
or maybe even a fact - 'we just are'.
Accept it, get on with your lives, by all means worship any (or all) deities that (in YOUR opinion) provide you with a 'reason' .
My opinion (and yes - for what it's worth :) ) is to simply enjoying every opportunity that comes your way.
"The belief that there is only one truth and that oneself is in possession of it seems to me the deepest root of all evil that is in the world." - Max Born

[Misho]

ok , i guess my contributions to this thread will have to end here !! humans are a result of complex chemical reactions isn't the thing for me really !! :)

[BiTurbo]

Originally posted by Misho
ok , i guess my contributions to this thread will have to end here !! humans are a result of complex chemical reactions isn't the thing for me really !! :)
WHY?
Are you that 'God Fearing' that the mere suggestion of the alternative cannot be discussed by you?
:(

[crisis]

Dear Misho. I didnt intend to see you off by my last post. But it is interesting that you cant accept such a crude emotionless rationale. I would not frame it as crudely as BiTurbo but from my experience it does seem that some religious people, and the more religious the more it seems to be the case, can not or will not rationalise their point of view. Many will hide behind the scriptures or the "god moves in mysterious ways" so as to avoid the many hypocracies that religions expose themselves to. By intimidating the mases religious leaders can stifle any reasonable discussion by calling it blasphemy. Again I do not either intend for you to accept or agree with my opinion on such a delicate issue. I find your insight interesting because it is diametrically opposed to mine.

[henk4]

Originally posted by Misho
ok , i guess my contributions to this thread will have to end here !! humans are a result of complex chemical reactions isn't the thing for me really !! :)

The point is that I cannot "prove" that we are a result of a chemical reaction and you cannot "prove" that we are the result of the actions of a "higher" being.
Where it goes wrong when people think that their own individual religious beliefs (to which they are as far as I am concerned fully entitled) should be valid for humanity as a whole. When people start considering the "non-believers" or the "infidels" as a lesser breed or at best as an unknowledgable breed that just need to see the light, then the problems start.
When people start exploiting the beliefs of individuals to serve their own purposes (the various Christian churches, Islam and ,oh dear, the Jews in Israel) things are getting messy. I think history has given us enough prove of that, but quite a few people do not seem to have the intellectual independence (or freedom even) to successfull stand up against these sort of mass movements.

[Red line]

Originally posted by Crisis:
"it does seem that some religious people, and the more religious the more it seems to be the case, can not or will not rationalise their point of view. Many will hide behind the scriptures or the "god moves in mysterious ways" so as to avoid the many hypocracies that religions expose themselves to. By intimidating the mases religious leaders can stifle any reasonable discussion by calling it blasphemy."

Wow! Couldn't agree more on that statement. I couldn't have worded it better myself.

But, what would you say about a religion that Does rationalise their point of view, maybe because there have not been any hypocracies found in it?
And wouldn't that in itself make the believers of that religion "more" religious?

[crisis]

Originally posted by Red line
Wow! Couldn't agree more on that statement. I couldn't have worded it better myself.

But, what would you say about a religion that Does rationalise their point of view, maybe because there have not been any hypocracies found in it?
And wouldn't that in itself make the believers of that religion "more" religious?
Rationale is subjective of course. I suppose even radical fundamentalists consider rational. I looked up a dictionary meaning of religion and it says "a particular system of faith and worship" . Given that faith does not require rationalisation, a Religion cannot by definition be rationalised. If, on the other hand you are talking about rationalising written scriptures which could form the base of a religion, then some of that rationalisation must include viewing these scriptures from the point of view that I put forward earlier in this thread. Basically along the lines of the language used, the intended audience it was written to and the cultural and social climate and values of the period it was written. It would help to know the phsycological make up and predjudices of the author as well. Further to this you would have to critically question any anomolies that could not be logically explained. If there are no contradictions and everything can be proved then maybe thats the correct religion. Or maybe that is science. Do you know of such a religion?

[Misho]

Originally posted by crisis
Dear Misho. I didnt intend to see you off by my last post. But it is interesting that you cant accept such a crude emotionless rationale. I would not frame it as crudely as BiTurbo but from my experience it does seem that some religious people, and the more religious the more it seems to be the case, can not or will not rationalise their point of view.

Again I do not either intend for you to accept or agree with my opinion on such a delicate issue. I find your insight interesting because it is diametrically opposed to mine.

oh no , its not that comment by you or BiTurbo that upset me or anything. its just that i can see where this discussion is going and i beleive you all know my point of view on something like that. plus i dont think ill be able to convince you of my opinion as i am sure i wont be convinced by any other opinion. so i guess that makes a discussion useless.
so no , its not that i am so God fearing that i am afraid to discuss such an issue.
actually if u have any questions, ill still answer them and more !!
plus my final term of engineering school is starting to really kill me here !!

[Misho]

Originally posted by crisis
If there are no contradictions and everything can be proved then maybe thats the correct religion. Or maybe that is science. Do you know of such a religion?

more than one actually. :)

[crisis]

Originally posted by Misho
more than one actually. :)
do tell.

[crisis]

Originally posted by Misho
plus i dont think ill be able to convince you of my opinion as i am sure i wont be convinced by any other opinion. so i guess that makes a discussion useless.

Of course you are right. I dont seek to convince anyone that I am right. I dont know if I am. I am open to any reasoned, logical theories. I also enjoy hearing other peoples thoughts, especially when they are so different to mine yet they can express them rationally without getting emotional. However in comparison to your final term of engineering school I do agree this discussion is useless.

[Red line]

Originally posted by Misho
more than one actually. :)

I know that this discussion might be useless and off-topic but if anyone Really wants to talk about something else then noone is stopping them.

More than 1??:confused:
I would like for Misho to name at least two religions that do not contradict themselves, have no anomilies in their beliefs and religious resorces, and finally, every last belief of that religion can be proved either through the bible, logical reasoning, and/or visible modern conditions.
Please respond!:)

[BiTurbo]

Originally posted by Red line
.

More than 1??:confused:
I would like for Misho to name at least two religions that do not contradict themselves, have no anomilies in their beliefs and religious resorces, and finally, every last belief of that religion can be proved either through the bible, logical reasoning, and/or visible modern conditions.
Please respond!:)
Geeezus -
could you have come up with a more impossible task? :)

[Misho]

Originally posted by Red line

More than 1??:confused:
I would like for Misho to name at least two religions that do not contradict themselves, have no anomilies in their beliefs and religious resorces, and finally, every last belief of that religion can be proved either through the bible, logical reasoning, and/or visible modern conditions.
Please respond!:)

1)Islam
2)Christianity
3)Jewism

although i dont know much about the last two, i am pretty sure that without the human changes that took place to them over the years, they would be another case "perfect" relegions.
what i am more than sure about though, is the first one.

i dont think ill be able to prove them through the bible though !! im not sure what u mean by that really. proving a beleif is perfect while referencing to another beleif!!
visible modern conditions is another point were we will probably differ (u will see what i mean later on!!).
logical reasoning however, will be my main focal point. although we will argue about issues such as how can cutting a thieve's hand be reasonable !!
anyways, im waiting for you guys to start firing at me !!

[BiTurbo]

Originally posted by Misho
1)Islam
2)Christianity
3)Jewism

although i dont know much about the last two, i am pretty sure that without the human changes that took place to them over the years, they would be another case "perfect" relegions.
what i am more than sure about though, is the first one.
although we will argue about issues such as how can cutting a thieve's hand be reasonable !!
anyways, im waiting for you guys to start firing at me !!
Is removing a hand for thievery a religious belief or is it just taking corporal punishment to, what some people (not necessarily religious) would call, its natural conclusion?
No one can use modern terms to describe or justify original religious teaching, no matter how strong their belief. Theologians have been trying to do just that for the last 150 years - it can't be done.
But -
I have been wrong - once - if my memory serves. :)

[crisis]

[2.6] Surely those who disbelieve, it being alike to them whether you warn them, or do not warn them, will not believe. [2.7] Allah has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing and there is a covering over their eyes, and there is a great punishment for them.
[2.10] There is a disease in their hearts, so Allah added to their disease and they shall have a painful chastisement because they lied.
Why would Allah, "the god of the worlds, The Beneficent, the Merciful," feel predisposed to react so to mere humans who merely do not believe in him. Wouldnt a clearly superior entity be free of such insecurities or pettiness. Or was the point of creating the universe so that Allah had people to worship him. Why would a powerful entity such as this be driven by what in human terms seems to be ego?

[Misho]

Originally posted by crisis

---- first of all i have to ask where did u get these versus? coz the refernce numbers used, are unfamiliar to me.

Or was the point of creating the universe so that Allah had people to worship him.


---- Yes it was. do u know any other reason why were here ?

Why would a powerful entity such as this be driven by what in human terms seems to be ego?

---- have u though of this as maybe just a terminology used so that the target audience (humans) can relate with ?

[Misho]

Originally posted by BiTurbo
Is removing a hand for thievery a religious belief or is it just taking corporal punishment to, what some people (not necessarily religious) would call, its natural conclusion?


---- its a relegious beleif.

No one can use modern terms to describe or justify original religious teaching, no matter how strong their belief. Theologians have been trying to do just that for the last 150 years - it can't be done.


---- good thing u pointed it out.

[Red line]

Islam is a peacful religion that also teaches peace among itself.
Yet it is THE most violent religion....I don't think that I need to give any examples.......9/11
It sounds like I contradicted myself but I ment that the religion in itself is peacful yet "most" muslims are not...WHY???

[Misho]

Originally posted by Red line
Islam is a peacful religion that also teaches peace among itself.
Yet it is THE most violent religion....I don't think that I need to give any examples.......9/11
It sounds like I contradicted myself but I ment that the religion in itself is peacful yet "most" muslims are not...WHY???

its obvious from the way you talk that you are an inconsiderate, non respectful and stupid human being.
dont expect any comments from me on any of your dumb opinions.

[Red line]

:( I'm sorry Misho! I shouldn't have worded it that way. I didn't mean to affend anyone. Obviously I wasn't thinking right considering that it was posted at about 1:00A.M.
What I ment to ask is what is the justification according to Islam for their disputes in the middle-east?
I don't expect you to answer if you do not want to.

[Batmobile_Turbo]

they belive in jihads, which means expansion of islam by any means possible, which includes killing people. i don't know if all muslims belive in jihads though.

[Misho]

this is getting ridiculous.
hey crisis, i hope u understand why i have to leave this thread.

[crisis]

I suppose we couldnt have picked a more controversial subject. Never mind it was fun while it lasted.

[crisis]

Seeing the shift to religion got off the rails, I thought I would return to the original thread which was politics. I find it amusing to watch the language (?) of the US politicians when their forces are attacked in Iraq. The use of the word terrorist is particularly interesting. When the US invaded, there was always talk of the Republican Guard and the Fedayeen. When they entered Baghdad there was little evidence of them. It may have been reasonable to assume that they were mostly wiped out in the sustained bombing but I always thought that if I were running the show I would have them flee to fight another day. Is this whats happening? Terrorists may use car bombs but the latest attack with the SAM on the Chinook looks more like a military strike. Thinking about it further, if I wanted to create havoc why not throw in the occasional car bomb to confuse the issue and have terrorists blamed. My point is I dont think it is clever of the US to refer to what maybe military attacks as acts of terror. If Iraq invaded the US and the various military organisations sustained guerilla operations would that be classed as acts of terror or a fight for freedom?

[Batmobile_Turbo]

the point is, ALL world governments; are, have been, or are going to be, corrupt.

[Misho]

thank you Crisis for pointing this out. makes me more confident that there are intelligent people out there !

[henk4]

Originally posted by crisis
Seeing the shift to religion got off the rails, I thought I would return to the original thread which was politics. I find it amusing to watch the language (?) of the US politicians when their forces are attacked in Iraq. The use of the word terrorist is particularly interesting.

It is simple, depending on the source it's either a terrorist or a freedom fighter. Just look at the way Palestinians are being described.

[DwZX35]

Originally posted by BiTurbo
Uh?

ok, this is my last post

George Bush said in responce to a question about what word would sum up his career he said Strategery, not a real word

[crisis]

Originally posted by Batmobile_Turbo
they belive in jihads, which means expansion of islam by any means possible, which includes killing people. i don't know if all muslims belive in jihads though.
The recent attacks in Saudi Arabia and Iraq should show how the Muslim population is just as much as risk as anyone else. It is Muslims and Arabs being killed by these nuts now. Way to run a Jihad.

[BiTurbo]

Originally posted by DwZX35
ok, this is my last post

George Bush said in responce to a question about what word would sum up his career he said Strategery, not a real word
It could be -
If you didn'i live in the real world. :rolleyes:

[Batmobile_Turbo]

Originally posted by crisis
The recent attacks in Saudi Arabia and Iraq should show how the Muslim population is just as much as risk as anyone else. It is Muslims and Arabs being killed by these nuts now. Way to run a Jihad.

the world is just a screwed up place anyway. especially the political world.

[BiTurbo]

When are the families of the Amercian serviceman going to start kicking some political arse.
It's suicide to subject forces to a 'peace-keeping' roll involving civilians and 'terrorists'.
To top it off they're now reducing their strength with guardsman and marines, something like 20,000 or 30,000 less!
I can't believe that Bush thinks that the loss of these foot (101st) soldiers is worth it. :mad:

[crisis]

Originally posted by BiTurbo
When are the families of the Amercian serviceman going to start kicking some political arse.
It's suicide to subject forces to a 'peace-keeping' roll involving civilians and 'terrorists'.
To top it off they're now reducing their strength with guardsman and marines, something like 20,000 or 30,000 less!
I can't believe that Bush thinks that the loss of these foot (101st) soldiers is worth it. :mad:
The US copped shit for invading Iraq. They would get buried for bucking out. If they pulled out the remenants of Saddams regime would be back with a vengeance. Dont forget they have'nt got him yet either. The current situation means that even if the Bath party didnt regain power some other strong man type figure is likely to. There is not currently the environment for an election to take place. So do they piss off cause its all got too hard and risk the chance of another anti WEST anti US regime taking over , thus making the present campaign a waste of time or do they stick it out, loose more people and money and try to mould the country into a Kuwait type model that will deal with the West. I think I know what they would rather, but do they have the resolve to see it through. Think in years rather than months.

[BiTurbo]

Originally posted by crisis


Think in years rather than months.
I still can't think that Americans are going to stand for a year(s) of this.
Your argument is valid but they can't do it with less men on the ground they gotta move fast and real hard with all the muscle they can gather. Reduce the long term effects and hopefully the losses.

[megotmea7]

ppl blame bush for the whole thing, the truth is if gore were elected we'd be in the same boat. the US presedent is a figurehead, after an event like 911 ppl want satisfaction and by going after the most obvious target (and decidedly one of the most disliked after the more recent unresolved confrontation of desert storm) he is giving the ppl what they want but it wasnt as quick and painless as most expected/wanted. afganistan was a failure(in the eyes of the hopeful, they wanted a face to blame and put on trial) because they didnt get osama bin laden so they(the government) turned to the next best thing, the most hated leader since hitler, sadam and most ppl are geting a bit antsy since we have yet to get him yet either so their turning to bush for his "failures"

[crisis]

Getting Osama Bin Laden would have been resolution enough in Afghanistan after they removed the Taliban in the eyes of the US. Even so, things are still not finished in Afghanistan. Iraq is shaping up as a "Vietnam". It needs a strong leader quickly. The only problem is that strong leaders dont always make good ones. Absolute power and all that stuff.

[BiTurbo]

'I TOLD YOU SO':p
Bush is getting some serious heat and getting out of Iraq has now become America's No. 1 policy.
No one is going to put up with their troops (or civilians) being killed in a 'police action' overseas.
The japanese know its a lost cause and have gone back on their promise of troops on the ground.
Anti-terrorist actions like these are only tolerated by the likes of Russia, a country still not devoid of its communist roots.

[crisis]

Originally posted by BiTurbo
'I TOLD YOU SO':p
Bush is getting some serious heat and getting out of Iraq has now become America's No. 1 policy.
No one is going to put up with their troops (or civilians) being killed in a 'police action' overseas.
The japanese know its a lost cause and have gone back on their promise of troops on the ground.
Anti-terrorist actions like these are only tolerated by the likes of Russia, a country still not devoid of its communist roots.
I dont really understand your last comment but I did see an interesting peice on tv last night with a reporter with a group of 82nd Airborne soldiers. They were anyhting but low on morale. They were positive and commited to their job despite having lost one of their comrads and coming under fire each night. Sometimes the ones who do the talking are'nt talking for those they claim to. Im sure all of the soldiers would rather be home and safe but these guys were not complaining.
I dont know about a Police action, thats a tired old term . The reality is some kind of order is required for Iraq to have the time to build a new government. The Bath part has been in power so long that elections are a new concept for many as are people who have the experiance to govern. It will be a long road yet. If anyhting the terrorist attacks now being targetted at the Iraqi citizens should make it clear that the West is not the enemy of the new Iraq. Fundamentalism is as it is for all the world.

[BiTurbo]

My last comment refers to Chechnya and Russia's attempts to shut the rebels down. Unfortunately for Russia the Chechens are able to hit the heartland and the death of 80 or so civilians at a theatre can be claimed by Russian authorities as acceptable, because they killed the rebels as well. Besides what's the local populous going to do - they will find it impossible to rid the 'powers that be' of the KGB.
BTW 'Five Russian soldiers and three policemen were killed in attacks in Chechnya' a few hours ago.
I'm not suggesting that the soldiers aren't committed and able to do their job, it's rather the fact that back home they are going to cut Bush's balls off if he doesn't start making very serious moves to save troops lives.

[crisis]

You often hear how the Western press is responsible for bias against Muslims etc which I would say is a generalisation but in some cases true. But I loved the "damned if you do damned if you dont" shot the media took at the British security reation to the 60 year old lady who scaled the gates of Bucko Palace. They strung a line along "if they cant defend against a 60 year old lady, how can they defend against real terrorists?" Lets let it happen again and let the security guards shoot her. Insert your own press headline here. Or, lets be reasonable, dont shoot her, pull her down off a twenty foot fence or shoot her down with a water cannon. Broken leg or fractured skull anyone? I would like to know the option that all the smart arses would prefer. I think they prefer a situation that gives them a cynical headline myself.

[BiTurbo]

Originally posted by crisis


I think they prefer a situation that gives them a cynical headline myself.
PRAVDA 'HEADLINES'
Chinese President on way to Moscow -
Red Square treated with 'GroundUp' for Botanical show -
Small number (approx 800) of Flower Ladies found dead next to their barrows plus thousands of weeds and possibly some flowers -
KGB heralds outstanding success of its newest product for 'weeding out' problems.

[crisis]

U.S.
Member of UN.
Gives millions in aid to various countries around the world including those run by governments hostile toward them.
Spends millions developing weapons that can be accurately targetted so as to reduce collateral damage to their enemies in times of war.
Allows open dialogue, dicussion, ridicule of itself and its policies without recrimination.
Allows public protest of their actions without recrimination.
Allows open ridicule of their religion without recrimination.

Al Queada
Not a member of the UN.
Contributes nothing to anyone.
Targets civillians.
Does not discriminate between cultures or religions when targetting.
Uses some ****ed up interpretation of a religion to justify his means to himself.
Denigrates the Muslim religion and opens up Mulsims around the world to ridicule by millions of people around the world.
Has a goal that everyone except those who agree with his outlook on life will be destroyed. ( may be a little under resourced to achieve this)
Will Fatwa the arse off anyone who utters the slightest defamatory comment of their religion.

Which one of these recieves the most heat from protestors around the world for their actions?

[BiTurbo]

Originally posted by crisis
U.S.
Member of UN.
Gives millions in aid to various countries around the world including those run by governments hostile toward them

Al Queada
Not a member of the UN.
Contributes nothing to anyone.
Targets civillians.
Does not discriminate between cultures or religions when targetting.
Uses some ****ed up interpretation of a religion to justify his means to himself.
Denigrates the Muslim religion and opens up Mulsims around the world to ridicule by millions of people around the world.
Has a goal that everyone except those who agree with his outlook on life will be destroyed. ( may be a little under resourced to achieve this)
Will Fatwa the arse off anyone who utters the slightest defamatory comment of their religion.

Which one of these recieves the most heat from protestors around the world for their actions?
Exactly......
where the hell do 100,000 pommies (including Muslims) get off protesting against Bush & Blair who are doing their utmost to defend their rights.
You would have to class yourself as very ignorant indeed to assume that their protestations will help in any way towards stopping Bin Laden and his group of sycophantic followers.
Wake up you morons and smell the hypocrisy.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

In response to the recent comment by crisis.
well put, the U.S. does give millions in aid to countries around the world, partly because they feel it is there duty as upstanding members of the political world, partly because they feel responsible.
Al qaeda (Not sure on spelling) does not discriminate, the recent attacks in turkey killed as many muslims as they did western and jewish citizens. cities like Istanbul are the absolute stuff of nightmares for people like Bin Laden (Who is just a figurehead, with the funds, much like george bush) because the citizens get on with each other, many muslims and jewish people work with each other, interact daily with each other, and do not hate each other. if you check the bombers from those afformentioned attacks had entered the country from other areas 2 weeks ago.
Maybe places like Israel could learn a lot from Istanbul, and turkey in General, because both sides respect, both sides get on.

BiTurbo also makes the good point of saying why we are not protesting against al qaeda and other terrorist organisations, because we have no control over them. We control the fate of Bush/Blair and we can decide what we like. many people are getting angry becasue they feel lied to, like their not getting the full story. It certainly doesn't help when the media focus on the cost of the war, but it does ask the question; do the ends justify the means?

religion has been the bone of contention in many a conflict since the dawn of time, although the current political climate doesn't help with so many Heads of government being so fanatical about their own denomination.

During G.W.II the prime minister of N.Z, helen clark, publically denounced the war, a move applauded by green M.P.s (who form part of the majority of government with an alliance), but N.Z is now suffering, with a free-trade deal trying to be put foward to the U.S. government almost definately halted perminately, at least in this form. While diplomatic and trade ties with the U.S. and G.B., Australia and other supportive nations growing stronger daily. my point being you should choose your battles wisely.

and for the record, Ms Clark holds a 67% preferred Prime Minister rating, i do not have figures on Bush or Blair, but i can guarantee they will be less.

[crisis]

Radical Muslims like al queada hate to see examples like Turkey. It proves that Muslims, Christians and Jews can exist together and its too close to the Middle East. Muslims,Jews, Christians and everyone else can co exist in Western countries because , while not everyone living in them is above racism, tolerance of peoples differences and beliefs is institutionalised. It is against the law to discriminate. When you hear the Ex prime minister of Malaysia say Australia is not part of Asia because not enough Asians live here you can see their philisophy.
We may have no control over al queada but it still looks ordinary for those protesters to protest against the people who are trying to do something about them. Are you saying its only worth making a noise if you think it will change something?

[IBrake4Rainbows]

fair point, but it begs the question, what is asian?
come to think of it, what is muslim, what is christian?
and to be quite honest, i do believe people don't protest about al qaeda because their afraid of being bombed during the protests!
and for the record, i think it's very noble that you think that muslims, jews and christians can co-exist in western society, but i very much doubt it. sure, you can have them live next to each other, and perhaps work next to each other, but given the choice i believe most of them would prefer to stick to their own circle. in New Zealand we have a lot of exchange students from Korea, China and Taiwan. the whole point of coming over here is to try and learn english, but they stick to their own little circles and only speak when spoken to. whats the point of coming somewhere to learn the language if you won't actually speak it?!?!?!
we can get along, just not in the current climate, that is my feeling.
want proof? just check my school ground.

[crisis]

Racism exists everywhere. Its not only attributable to white anglo saxons. I believe Western governments, especially those not bound by religious doctrine are better in legislating tolerance through laws and guidlines than many other countries that call us racist. Not everyone who lives in these countries is a egaltarian or tolerant as they possibly should be. The history of the human race points to the fact that humans fear or shy away from what they dont understand. Different cultures can be anything from frightening to revolting to others. Therfore it may not be surprising that I find the act of removing peoples limbs in the name of a religion for breaking certain laws barbaric and unjustifiable in the context of my beliefs and values. Other people from other cultures find western ideals and beliefs equally distasteful. Most of us do not set about trying to car bomb those who dont abide by our beliefs around to our way of thinking.
I dont think al queada are in a position to bomb protest marchers. For all of their hate filled violence they would find it extremely difficult to mount their attacks. Their actions have menat that security around the world has made subsequent acts harder and harder.
As far as being a noble thought that Christians, Jew and Muslim can live togehter in countries like Australia it is a fact, We do not have religious violence in this country at present. We probably experience more racial violence than anything.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

it is true that Australia has not been a site of religious violence, so the mosque burning in brisbane can be put down to racial violence?
and it is true that the human race has a nature of being suspicious. however i am in agreeance with you that hipocrisy and double standards still rule our world.
all i am trying to get across is that we have so many extremes in our political landscape today that somehow are magically supposed to get along, but evedentally do not. I have to say the only reason that most Istanbulians greive together because it was both Jews and Muslims who were killed, if it was just jews, things would be very different.

to most of the terrorist groups car bombings and the like are just a means to an end. Many make a big deal about how the Koran makes some note of how if you lay down your life for allah, you will be rewarded in the next life, but the same is said in the bible, although a little better interpreted in our culture.

the world is a fascinatingly different place. it is true that some things considered commonplace in some parts of the world will be absolutely offensive in others. but can you imagine what some must have thought of western culture when there were hangings in the street? when people where sent to far off lands for some petty crime? what is the differance between them and the way the west used to be? very little. religion was used theri as a reason to die and kill, the only thing thatschanged is that it's happening to us as a whole, we are not the lynch mob this time.

I still would be very weary of being in a protest of Al Qaeda, just remember nothing is foolpoof to a sufficiently talented fool.

[crisis]

Originally posted by IBrake4Rainbows
it is true that Australia has not been a site of religious violence, so the mosque burning in brisbane can be put down to racial violence?


the world is a fascinatingly different place. it is true that some things considered commonplace in some parts of the world will be absolutely offensive in others. but can you imagine what some must have thought of western culture when there were hangings in the street? when people where sent to far off lands for some petty crime? what is the differance between them and the way the west used to be? very little. religion was used theri as a reason to die and kill, the only thing thatschanged is that it's happening to us as a whole, we are not the lynch mob this time.

I still would be very weary of being in a protest of Al Qaeda, just remember nothing is foolpoof to a sufficiently talented fool.

From what I remember the Mosque burning came close on the heels of September 11. I did not mean to say there is no religious violence. There would have to be. That burning was still very isolated and far short of violence around the world.

Im afraid I reject any arguments based on history where protagonists no longer practise those activities. ie the fact that England deported convicts to Australia for petty crimes, that Aboriginals were murdered by early white settlers, that German nazis commited atrocities during WWII, that JApanese soldier committed atrocities to POWs in WWII, that our soldiers were probably guilty of barbaric acts at periods in history. I judge a culture, country of religion on what it practices today. I do not hold the decsendants of the perpertrators responsible unless they continue to carry out those acts. That is also why I reject the comments stating that the US once helped this Saddam Hussien or whoever. Act on what is currently happening. The most ridiculous, mindless and brutal conflicts are being fought over disagreements that happened years ago. ie Northern Ireland, Middle East, Balkans. I wonder if the parties actually know what the original conflict was about or how it started.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

their was not only that mosque, there was also a lot of damage inflicted to mosques around sydney, Perth, Melbourne, and even adelaide. now granted they were reliatively close to 9/11, but they are still relevant because instead of being in shock with the rest of the world, as they were, many were in fact blaming the whole muslim religion, which sucks badly and can be considered religious violence. as recently as yesterday i passed a mosque in sunny wellington and it still had sprawled on it graffiti, which was so rude i will not say it here (PG rating!!!) all i will tell is it involves a C and a T.

Many people fighting in these conflicts probably do not know where and when it started, all they know is that something is going on that they do not like, and they are trying to find a way to end it. There methods may be a bit dodgy, but there motive is not.

And it's probably best to judge a culture on whats happening here and now. I have a german exchange friend and he has nothing like the mentality of WW2 germany.

For the record, America helped saddam hussein in the 80's, by giving him weapons and such. but shot themselves in the foot when a missile hit a U.S ship in the harbour. America forgave then. But when they realised they had no control (The only reason for giving him weapons) they wanted him out, and they bothced that up anyway. Now i will not go half-cocked here but i don't believe it was because of the Kurdish massacre. America was only a small part of the force that broke up the Serbian war, it should of been at the forefront. why should it have cared about Kurds?

[crisis]

Originally posted by IBrake4Rainbows
their was not only that mosque, there was also a lot of damage inflicted to mosques around sydney, Perth, Melbourne, and even adelaide. now granted they were reliatively close to 9/11, but they are still relevant because instead of being in shock with the rest of the world, as they were, many were in fact blaming the whole muslim religion, which sucks badly and can be considered religious violence. as recently as yesterday i passed a mosque in sunny wellington and it still had sprawled on it graffiti, which was so rude i will not say it here (PG rating!!!) all i will tell is it involves a C and a T.

Many people fighting in these conflicts probably do not know where and when it started, all they know is that something is going on that they do not like, and they are trying to find a way to end it. There methods may be a bit dodgy, but there motive is not.

And it's probably best to judge a culture on whats happening here and now. I have a german exchange friend and he has nothing like the mentality of WW2 germany.

For the record, America helped saddam hussein in the 80's, by giving him weapons and such. but shot themselves in the foot when a missile hit a U.S ship in the harbour. America forgave then. But when they realised they had no control (The only reason for giving him weapons) they wanted him out, and they bothced that up anyway. Now i will not go half-cocked here but i don't believe it was because of the Kurdish massacre. America was only a small part of the force that broke up the Serbian war, it should of been at the forefront. why should it have cared about Kurds?
Its hard to know who to attribute the Mosque burnings to. That type of thing is not common to Australia historically. It could have been religiously motivated but given the apathy most Australians have towards religion, it would be more likely racially motivated or attacked by opportunist vandals. Either way it is still a rare occurence and if it is still happening I think it is a reactioin to terrorist attacks that the more simple minded attribute racially to Arabs.

This is simplistic but I think that many people fighting long standing conflicts are fighting a war of one up manship or revenge for the latest act of their antagonists. This seems particularly evident when parents train their children to hate whoever they determine their enemies to be. They clearly do not want their children to form their own opinions as they fear they may not agree with theirs. Most people viewing these conflict from afar and without the predjudices and emotional involvment can see the irrationalism and futility. The children of these people without having their parents values drilled into them would probably form a similar view and the conflicts may stop. I detest these people most of all. They are sentencing their children to a life of violence and hatred because of their own hatred. The sight of children with guns, dressed in military clothing, being taken into the streets in hate filled marches, holding banners with hatefull messages is appaling. Then their mothers cry when their son blows himself up along with other innocent civillians in the name of his religion. I'll stop here.

America supported Saddam Hussein against Iran when Iran was seen to be the biggest threat to stability in the middle east. France and Germany also supported him with companies from these countries making millions from building infrastructure, some of which involved nuclear items and other less than ethical contsructions. At the time there was no reason for the US, France or Germany to suspect Saddam Hussein would turn out as he did. He seemed open to dialogue with the West. The realities that present themselves now call for different judgements to be made and as I said , I believe people/governments should be judged on their current actions.

[crisis]

Not bad , I like this type of pragmatism. I got this emailed to me.

Robin Williams' plan..(Hard to argue with this logic!)
I see a lot of people yelling for peace but I have not heard of a plan for peace. So, here's one plan


1. The US will apologize to the world for our "interference" in their affairs, past &present. You know, Hitler, Mussolini, Tojo, Noriega, Milosovich and the rest of those 'good ole boys.' We will never "interfere" again.

2. We will withdraw our troops from all over the world, starting with Germany, South Korea and the Philippines. They don't want us there. We would station troops at our borders. No one sneaking through holes in the fence.

3. All illegal aliens have 90 days to get their affairs together and leave. We'll give them a free trip home. After 90 days the remainder will be gathered up and deported immediately, regardless of who or where they are. Australia would welcome them.

4. All future visitors will be thoroughly checked and limited to 90 days unless given a special permit. No one from a terrorist nation would be allowed in. If you don't like it there, change it yourself and don't hide here. Asylum would never be available to anyone. We don't need any more cab drivers or 7-11 cashiers.

5. No "students" over age 21. The older ones are the bombers. If they don't attend classes, they get a "D" and it's back home baby.

6. The US will make a strong effort to become self-sufficient energy wise. This will include developing non-polluting sources of energy but will require a temporary drilling of oil in the Alaskan wilderness. The caribou will have to cope for a while.

7. Offer Saudi Arabia and other oil producing countries $10 a barrel for their oil. If they don't like it, we go some place else. They can go somewhere else to sell their production. (About a week of the wells filling up the storage sites would be enough.)

8. If there is a famine or other natural catastrophe in the world, we will not "interfere." They can pray to Allah or whomever, for seeds, rain, cement or whatever they need. Besides most of what we give them is stolen or given to the army. The people who need it most get very little, if anything.

9. Ship the UN Headquarters to an isolated island some place. We don't need the spies and fair weather friends here. Besides, the building would make a good homeless shelter or lockup for illegal aliens.

10. All Americans must go to charm and beauty school. That way, no one can call us "Ugly Americans" any longer.

The Language we speak is ENGLISH.....learn it...or LEAVE...

Now, ain't that a winner of a plan.

"The Statue of Liberty is no longer saying 'Give me your poor, your tired, your huddled masses.' She's got a baseball bat and she's yelling, 'You want a piece of me'" -

[BiTurbo]

Originally posted by crisis
Not bad , I like this type of pragmatism. I got this emailed to me.

4. All future visitors will be thoroughly checked and limited to 90 days unless given a special permit. No one from a terrorist nation would be allowed in. If you don't like it there, change it yourself and don't hide here. Asylum would never be available to anyone. We don't need any more cab drivers or 7-11 cashiers.

..offer oil producing countries $10 a barrel for their oil. If they don't like it, we go some place else. They can go somewhere else to sell their production. (About a week of the wells filling up the storage sites would be enough.)

9. Ship the UN Headquarters to an isolated island some place. We don't need the spies and fair weather friends here. Besides, the building would make a good homeless shelter or lockup for illegal aliens.

10. All Americans must go to charm and beauty school. That way, no one can call us "Ugly Americans" any longer.

The Language we speak is ENGLISH.....learn it...or LEAVE...

"The Statue of Liberty is no longer saying 'Give me your poor, your tired, your huddled masses.' She's got a baseball bat and she's yelling, 'You want a piece of me'" -
Shit I get sick of following you around and repeating the good stuff.:)

[r34_296kw]

And about the weapons of mass destruction, how do you know they didnt move them outta the country during that whole time when we werent alowed to look anywhere, and why wouldnt he let us go anywhere? Im not thinkin he didnt want us to see his giant marshmellow making machine. He was hiding something.. Even if we dont find any of them the war was still justified because sadaam was a lil bitch and killed innocent people, his own people, was running the country like a tyrant, and was working with terorist which were against Americans which makes him jus as bad as them..... [/B][/QUOTE] very good point

[IBrake4Rainbows]

Re The Baseball bat, how very true.

[Misho]

Originally posted by IBrake4Rainbows
many were in fact blaming the whole muslim religion, which sucks badly and can be considered religious violence.


"which sucks badly and can be considered religious violence."

who's opinion is that ?

[Misho]

my answer : Not the United States.

and by the way, that supposedly funny email regarding a solution to violence or whatever, is actually better than the current situation, regardless of how stupid some dumb people might think it is.

[BiTurbo]

Originally posted by Misho



and by the way, that supposedly funny email regarding a solution to violence or whatever, is actually better than the current situation, regardless of how stupid some dumb people might think it is.
Then YOU agree with US? -
and I'm sure it applies to the U.S. as well - I don't think it's dumb - if only they would do half of it.
It's gotta solve some problems and I agree with you - it's better than the situation now.

[crisis]

Originally posted by Misho
my answer : Not the United States.

and by the way, that supposedly funny email regarding a solution to violence or whatever, is actually better than the current situation, regardless of how stupid some dumb people might think it is.

There, of course, is the conundrum. As a civilized nation (which Im sure will bring forth much debate) the US feels obliged or compelled to help out those who dont share their wealth and prosperity. Even though many in the US may be living below the poverty line or on the streets or a lifestyle that is extreemly disadvantaged. The US sends millions of dollars in aid of all kinds, to many countries around the world and leaves hungry homeless people in its own country. If the US and any other benevolent Western country said that they will stop sending any financial, agricultural, educational, scientific or any other aid to any country and kept its wealth, technology and knowledge to itself the cries of protest would ring loudly around the world. If we decided that no other nation should ever interfere in any other nations affairs how long could we live with the consequences? Consider these scenarios along the lines of no interference in other countries business.

Iraqs invasion of Kuwait.
The conflict in the Balkans.
Germanys invasion of Poland, France Belgium etc.
Isreals dealings with the Palestinians.
Drought and starvation in Central Africa.
Numerous earthquakes in third world countries
Aids in Africa.

The West could easily sit by and let third world nations become extinct. Actually they couldnt because despite what many people think of the US ( as though its actually a singular entity) their are more moral, socially concious people in that country and the world than corrupt ones. While that remains the case, countries will always intervene in other nations affairs. Sometimes for the right reasons and somtimes for the wrong ones.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

Exactly!!!!

Referring to who's opinion it is, that opinion is mine and (quite possibly, in this thread at least) mine alone. anything against a place of worship is considered religious violence, simple.

crisis, well done on the previous comment, you managed to provide a very balanced perspective. it is a conundrum that countries like the U.S face, whether to let them starve or help them out, and in the end most of the time they have made the right decision. I don't agree with the invasion of iraq, but i also don't agree with the torture of it's citizens, and i think, in this case at least, the ends justify the means. but i have a small fear; when the u.s finally pulls out,who's to stop saddam coming back to gain power again??? we'll be back where we started, and the whole situation will have been for nothing.

i'm reminded at this time of a prayer we recite at my school (Bloody catholic colleges....)
that asks for courage to change the things we can,
knowledge to see the things we cannot,
and the wisdom to know the difference.
I think maybe the U.S. should (And probably do) have a long and hard think before they make any move, and think if they really can make a difference. sending aid to a country may make you feel better, and be the moral thing to do, but if you cannot break the cycle, chucking money at the problem will do nothing.

which is why i believe the invasion may have been for the best.

[crisis]

It would help if they could actually catch Hussein. It was good that they caught his scumbag sons. The problem with Iraq is that already, religious political parties are emerging and they will no doubt want some form of power. Religious governments invariably want to rule in the name of whatever god they follow which makes it undesirable for people who dont follow that god or that particular version of the religion in question. I have said before (much to Mishos disgust) that I dont see a place for religion in politics, it only furhter confuses matters. The US will also be unlikely to embrace a radical Muslim government al la Iran. The rest of the world can also do without religious fundamentalist governed countires. What of Iraq then? And what of Afghanistan? If the question is too hard is it best not to attempt to answer it? Or do we follow the difficult path the US has chosen, for whatever their reasons, and persist until a reasonable, peaceful resolution is attained. A criticism often levelled at the US and the West is that we dont understand other cultures. Can , however , other cultures who are deeply committed to their religion, ever understand us when we live our lives according to our beliefs, even thought they may be so offensive to them.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

Religion has no place in politics, Amen!

It is often a big misconception that the U.S, or the west for that matter, do not understand other cultures. the misconception is that they even attempt to understand other cultures, which i'll think you'll find that most americans do not. They run on stereotypes, just as we run on stereotypes of radical muslims and radical governments. but we all know what happens when you try and stereotype something, it ends up being completely different, which it is.

I do have problems with finding a reasonable peaceful solution that crisis is so adament that the U.S. seeks. In most of these countries war is all they've ever known, and war, or at least violence, is all that will ever be. you have to stay on top somehow. and just as scandals rock politicians here, in those countries to stay the leader you have to kill off your enemy, or the opposing party, it's the way life is. To have an outsider (E.G. Paul Bremmer) come in and run your country must be horrifically infuriating for the people of Iraq. He's better than saddam, sure. But his motives are not quite as clear.

The world is getting smaller and smaller, with business and leisurwe travel getting commonplace. Inevitably their are going to be things which I consider perfectly normal, that others may find totally offensive. For example i am left-handed. In Indonesia the left hand is used for cleaning unsanitary spots on the body only, and maybe for holding your plate, but never for eating or doing anything more important. I went to Bali in 1998 and had to write out something for the hotel, you should have seen the shock on their face! the shock was returned when a chicken in the kitchen was killed, then served to me for lunch.

For all my (Admitantly) little knowledge of customs and cultures i can plainly see that more often than not people of different religions and backgrounds are not going to get along fine and dandy. and it's that sort of attitude that i find the americans have adopted, believing that when Iraqis saw the convoy of american might rolling through their town they would drop their arms and start dancing, only to have seen much the opposite.

the path may be difficult, but i'm sure it's going to be worthwhile.

[crisis]

I am as far away from an idealist as anything you can get. But I think that if we stop trying to bring peace to the world we may as well despair. The age of information is becoming more accesible to third world countries and people who may have previously been denied that which their leaders would rather they did not have. This enlightenment will be a double edged sword. While people, previously oppressed and denied that which we take for granted, may embrace this new freedom, it will fill opressers and fundamentalists with fear. Information is power and the denial of information that may have previously protected these people from the disatisfaction of the masses may cause them to react in violent ways. We may be approaching a turbulent time worldwide. But then again when hasnt it been?

[r34_296kw]

Australia would welcome them.

[/B][/QUOTE] :eek: omg r u sure?? "AUSTRALIA"?!? I think they meant New Zealand.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

When did we go from government policy to information? but i can see the link. Knowledge is power, well stated.

People living in a slum in sao Paolo are less likely to have the same amount of information as me watching BBC World, but also where you get the information from is important. I was watchng the world news on BBC World and CNN and the two channels had very different opinions and stories. Perspective always helps, as does an on balance argument.

just remeber that if you offer a popular solution to a problem then more often than not people will believe you. Just think in WW2 the German government blamed the countries economic and social problems on the Jews, and, not knowing the whole story, the general public believed them. AN uneducated public is a mouldable public, and that is why the U.S. and Britain have so much vocal opposition, because there citizens know the whole story, although not from their government.

[r34_296kw]

Read this and learn some new facts
> >
> >Hey guys,
> >
> >read this and let me know what u think
> >
> >Pweor of the hmuan mnid.
> >
> >Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in
> >waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the
> >frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a total mses
> >and you
> >can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not
> >raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe.
> >
> >Amzanig huh?

[r34_296kw]

did u guys c da news las nite? dis bunch of iraqi kids aged around 12 years old were playin marbles, they didnt bother any1 and then outta da blues american soldiers come in choppers and shoot them to smitherins and their excuse is dat they thought the "innocent lil kids" were terrorist......funny that.......if a bunch if innocent kids looks like terrorists to them i really wunda wat a "man" carrying a gun will look like to them........just coz they call themselves the most top military in the world and still cant find saddam and osama doesnt mean they have to take out their anger of defeat on innocent lil kids.......sorry if i sound like a racist against americans but its just really sad wat they did to those innocent kids

[crisis]

Originally posted by IBrake4Rainbows
When did we go from government policy to information?
My admittedly tenuous link was based on the idea that while the US and the West are consumed in trying to "liberate" people from oppressive regimes or the influence of groups who desire radical and agressive forms of government, maybe part of the solution will come from within these societies. People in North Korea and countries that have drawn away from relationships with the rest of the world now have access throught the internet to what is going on around the rest of the world. Their governments may try to ban and censor but that generally has the effect of making people more curious. People power yeah!

[IBrake4Rainbows]

Go the Internet!!! Instead of getting information about freedom and how to operate a popular uprising, they'll probably get pop-ups for "Penis Enlargement" like the rest of us, mind.

and freedom of the press is one of the many ways democracy is good, it helps to have a non-biased opinion of what the government is doing, and gives the people the ability to critisise without fear of being shot.

and for the record, R34, i was watching the news, and did not see such a story, maybe you sould get your facts right before sprouting random useless facts, 83% of the world knows that.

[r34_296kw]

Originally posted by IBrake4Rainbows
Go the Internet!!! Instead of getting information about freedom and how to operate a popular uprising, they'll probably get pop-ups for "Penis Enlargement" like the rest of us, mind.

and freedom of the press is one of the many ways democracy is good, it helps to have a non-biased opinion of what the government is doing, and gives the people the ability to critisise without fear of being shot.

and for the record, R34, i was watching the news, and did not see such a story, maybe you sould get your facts right before sprouting random useless facts, 83% of the world knows that. ooooooooooohhhhhhhh now i c........so ur sayin ur rite and im wrong jus coz u think ur rite..........well so wat ur sayin is dat tv3 is full of bullsh*t

[IBrake4Rainbows]

theres no nice way to put this, so i'll lay it out.

I don't believe three news is full of shit, as you so eloquently put it, i believe you are. This is a serious debate and your doing nothing but what you do in the whole forum, lower the tone with unread, illegible and downright stupid comments.

come back when you've calmed down, taken a deep breath, and matured far beyond your current mental age.

[r34_296kw]

Originally posted by IBrake4Rainbows
theres no nice way to put this, so i'll lay it out.

I don't believe three news is full of shit, as you so eloquently put it, i believe you are. This is a serious debate and your doing nothing but what you do in the whole forum, lower the tone with unread, illegible and downright stupid comments.

come back when you've calmed down, taken a deep breath, and matured far beyond your current mental age. i dun fink ur talkin bout me but as a matter of fact talkin bout yoself :p

[henk4]

Originally posted by r34_296kw
i dun fink ur talkin bout me but as a matter of fact talkin bout yoself :p

Having read your contributions (or at least trying to) I was just wondering whether New Zealand had decided to give up teaching how to write proper English. Is it heading the Mugabe route and will it disentangle from the British Commonwealth?

I can't judge about the contents of your post, because they are fully incomprehensible but judging from what other people are writing they appear to be quite antagonistic. Such a shame when one can only follow one side of a discussion.

[r34_296kw]

Originally posted by henk4
Having read your contributions (or at least trying to) I was just wondering whether New Zealand had decided to give up teaching how to write proper English. Is it heading the Mugabe route and will it disentangle from the British Commonwealth?

I can't judge about the contents of your post, because they are fully incomprehensible but judging from what other people are writing they appear to be quite antagonistic. Such a shame when one can only follow one side of a discussion. shit i didnt no dat ppl actually read the kind of writing u write wen u write sumfin..watta bunch o choosy ppl

[henk4]

Originally posted by r34_296kw
shit i didnt no dat ppl actually read the kind of writing u write wen u write sumfin..watta bunch o choosy ppl

yes it is encouraging that everyday you can learn sometihng new, isn't it?

[NoOne]

I have been following this thread for quite sometime, I have not posted in it as I would clearly be out of my league and I refuse to post "hell yeah, I totally agree/disagree with that" type statements, I will not post unless it is to contribute .... at least in a thread of this nature.

Would it be possible to stop users from continuing to post in certain threads if their comments/attitude were not up to the thread standard? I pose this question due to the recent comments made by r34_296kw - whose posts in other threads, though misguided and commonly biased, are usually humourous for some of us - but has no place in a thread whose topic is potentially volatile.

I hope I am not coming across as self-righteous, nor am I a fan of censorship of anykind, but maybe a 3 strike rule needs to be in effect so as not to undermine any forum topic of this kind.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

Henk4, their are people in New Zealand who speak good proper english, and NZ is actually quite english in it's lifestyle and countryside, Coronation street is the most watched show over here.

as for No One, i believe that is a good thing to do, but we have to remember that would be a lot of work for the person who started the thread as they would be put in charge, much like a host in a chat room is, and they have control over the posters, which would not be good because they could be selective over who participates in the conversation. In R_34's case that may be good, but when R34 creates a forum only those who are sympathetic to him may be allowed to post. this requires further discussion and thankyou for bringing it up.

Now, R34, didn't your mother ever tell you those words are not nice to say to strangers???? For pitys sakes, i am 15 and am in a better mental state than your likely to ever be in. GROW THE HELL UP! and yes, do think i was talking about (Read carefully, A-B-O-U-T) you, because i was.

[crisis]

Originally posted by r34_296kw
did u guys c da news las nite? dis bunch of iraqi kids aged around 12 years old were playin marbles, they didnt bother any1 and then outta da blues american soldiers come in choppers and shoot them to smitherins and their excuse is dat they thought the "innocent lil kids" were terrorist......funny that.......if a bunch if innocent kids looks like terrorists to them i really wunda wat a "man" carrying a gun will look like to them........just coz they call themselves the most top military in the world and still cant find saddam and osama doesnt mean they have to take out their anger of defeat on innocent lil kids.......sorry if i sound like a racist against americans but its just really sad wat they did to those innocent kids
Reports like this are common in times of conflict. When I read about things like this I generally find it hard to believe. But there are many examples of brutality and inhumanity in wars. You and I can only speculate as to the pressure, exhaustion, mental torment and a myriad of other emotions everyone in Iraq would feel. Soldiers, civillians, and those loyal ( although I can't understand how) to the previous regime. In as much as 12 year olds playing marbles are innocent, who knows. Children had explosives and grenades strapped to them as human booby traps in Vietnam. Many radical groups train their children to hate those they themselves despise, as dilligently as they train them to spell. Reports of rock throwing youths being shot at in Palestine are quite regular. Parents of these children are honored to send their sons to death, wrapped with explosives intended to murder others. So children are not neccessarily harmless. The innocence of these children is stolen, in some cases by their parents, and their lives are cut short. It is not the intent of the children whose minds may still have a certain "innocence" , but the potential they have to kill others. If a soldier who has spent the last months watching his mates being shot at, bombed, killed and injured by "civillians" who look no different from those who welcome him, is confronted by "innocent children" who for some reason seem threatening what does he do? What would you do?
I did not see the report that you referred to but I have seen many reports that are eager to point out the failings and alleged attacks on innocent civillians by the US. I dont know if I beleive the US or its military is above that, but I do know that there are many like yourself who seem to take pleasure from pointing out possible immoral acts perpertrated by the US. I treat those reports with the same skepticism I treat any reports coming from a war zone.

[16-4Veyron]

Attention: Sadam has been captured!!! YAY YAY YAY


US Pride :cool:

[16-4Veyron]

"Now he will face the justice he denied to millions," Bush said during a five-minute formal television address.

"For the vast majority of Iraqi citizens who wish to live as free men and women, this event brings further assurance that the torture chambers and the secret police are gone forever," Bush said.

"This afternoon I have a message for the Iraqi people: You will not have to fear the rule of Saddam Hussein ever again," Bush said, adding a warning. "The capture of Saddam Hussein does not mean the end of violence in Iraq."

- quots by George W. Bush, CNN

[crisis]

Originally posted by 16-4Veyron
"Now he will face the justice he denied to millions," Bush said during a five-minute formal television address.

"For the vast majority of Iraqi citizens who wish to live as free men and women, this event brings further assurance that the torture chambers and the secret police are gone forever," Bush said.

"This afternoon I have a message for the Iraqi people: You will not have to fear the rule of Saddam Hussein ever again," Bush said, adding a warning. "The capture of Saddam Hussein does not mean the end of violence in Iraq."

- quots by George W. Bush, CNN
This is certainly a moral victory and a boost for the people over there, both soldiers and civillians. Unfortunately it will mean little in the way of reduced violence but we all know thats not the point.Hopefully the Iraqui people will get to dish out whatever punishment they deem fit and have some feeling of justice having been done. I hope his incarceration is secure and steadfast enought to prevent breakouts, hostage scenarios etc.

As far as what George Bush says (and Im not one of those who feels compelled to denigrate him at the mere mention of his name) his speeches are all written by others. I can never get the thought from my head, while he is speaking, of the episodes of West Wing or the Tom Clancy novels where you see groups of people agonising over each word and phrase to use and how it will be perceived by every type of audience. Invariably most presidential speeches and addresses sound trite and contrived (which of course they are).

[american muscle]

Thats right, America prevails again. And nobody really uses there on speeches ne more. Quit making excuses to hate Bush. And yeah i am new, but it is a great day for those of us who have been disagreed with about the war...wow what a suprise, the iraqi;s are happy. Who would of thought?

[white devil]

Originally posted by american muscle
Thats right, America prevails again. And nobody really uses there on speeches ne more. Quit making excuses to hate Bush. And yeah i am new, but it is a great day for those of us who have been disagreed with about the war...wow what a suprise, the iraqi;s are happy. Who would of thought?

HAPPY OF WHAT OF PEOPLE COMING AND TAKING THEIR COUNTRY FROM THEM .. They where hapy cause SADAM was cought OFF course they should be hapy he was a bad dectator but what did buch say {WE ARE GOING TO TAKE OFF IRAQI S WEPONS OF DESTRUCTION} and everybody know there is nothing left there anymore and i am prety sure when they wont fin any they will just install some there and say HEY EVERYBODY look there is the wepons of mass and destruction .. OK SADAM IS CAUGHT NOW why dont they leave there country and go out now :mad:

[r34_296kw]

Originally posted by white devil
HAPPY OF WHAT OF PEOPLE COMING AND TAKING THEIR COUNTRY FROM THEM .. They where hapy cause SADAM was cought OFF course they should be hapy he was a bad dectator but what did buch say {WE ARE GOING TO TAKE OFF IRAQI S WEPONS OF DESTRUCTION} and everybody know there is nothing left there anymore and i am prety sure when they wont fin any they will just install some there and say HEY EVERYBODY look there is the wepons of mass and destruction .. OK SADAM IS CAUGHT NOW why dont they leave there country and go out now :mad: yes thats tru...only reason america went there was for oil...saddam was just an excuse...its good that saddam will now pay for what he has done but now americans should help iraqis to rebuild iraq and let them choose their own government not the ones chosen by americans...how would the americans feel if some other country came and chose their government and destroyed their country? iraqis are only happy because saddam has been caught...thats the only reason they are happy and why shouldnt they be?

[crisis]

Originally posted by american muscle
Thats right, America prevails again. And nobody really uses there on speeches ne more. Quit making excuses to hate Bush. And yeah i am new, but it is a great day for those of us who have been disagreed with about the war...wow what a suprise, the iraqi;s are happy. Who would of thought?
Maybe I was a little ambiguous, although I thought this was clear enough.(and Im not one of those who feels compelled to denigrate him at the mere mention of his name) . I need to make no excuse to hate Bush because I dont. I am ambivalent in my feelings toward Bush and the US. I am not with my feelings toward those blindly patriotic drones who worship everthing their political leaders do and I am equally not with those who subscribe to the "US is the great white satan" attitiude. For you, Mr. muscle, I empathise with your defensiveness toward everyone who seems to be taking a swipe at the US. If you had read some of my previous comments in this forum you would have seen me defend and question the US with regard to Iraq. I emplore you to read a little more of this thread if you intend to mouth off so that you dont make youself look like an idiot. Being new here is no crime but you will find many of the people that post here are becoming increasingly intolerant of ill infomed or idiotic comments. So be prepared to be dealt with ruthlessly if you want to pick fights. As to White M3s comment about the US leaving Iraq now, no one can really believe that would be advantageous to anyone. Iraq is currently a basket case and even the French and Germans who have contributed nothing, yet gladly peddled their wares, would agree that Iraq is in no condition to be left to the warlords and religious fanatics that would surely jump into the present vacuum that has been created by the baath parties demise. Simplistic is the term for suggestions of that nature.

[r34_296kw]

So be prepared to be dealt with ruthlessly if you want to pick fights. [/B][/QUOTE] does he want a piece of me??? if he does im ready...

[henk4]

It's an illusion to think that the man they found yesterday would have been capable of organising the terrorist acts (or liberation activities depending who is telling about it) that have been going on for a while. He definitely looked like somebody on the run, with no real control any more.
When I listened to the news this morning one of the headlines was that at least 8 people were killed at a bomb attack near Bagdad. This I am afraid will continue. I also saw the speech made by GWB, and those who think he is just reciting what other people write down for him are probably right. When you looked at him you could see that he had difficulties not to smile, and he personally would have probably loved to quote Paul Bremmer: "We got him", but somebody told GW that triumphalism was not called for.
Don't get me wrong here I think it's a good thing that SH has been caught, but from what I heard yesterday I could not derive that there is a concise US plan about what to do next, in a similar way that such a plan was conspiciously absent for what to do after the war.

[american muscle]

Maybe I was a little ambiguous, although I thought this was clear enough.(and Im not one of those who feels compelled to denigrate him at the mere mention of his name) . I need to make no excuse to hate Bush because I dont. I am ambivalent in my feelings toward Bush and the US. I am not with my feelings toward those blindly patriotic drones who worship everthing their political leaders do and I am equally not with those who subscribe to the "US is the great white satan" attitiude. For you, Mr. muscle, I empathise with your defensiveness toward everyone who seems to be taking a swipe at the US. If you had read some of my previous comments in this forum you would have seen me defend and question the US with regard to Iraq. I emplore you to read a little more of this thread if you intend to mouth off so that you dont make youself look like an idiot. Being new here is no crime but you will find many of the people that post here are becoming increasingly intolerant of ill infomed or idiotic comments. So be prepared to be dealt with ruthlessly if you want to pick fights. As to White M3s comment about the US leaving Iraq now, no one can really believe that would be advantageous to anyone. Iraq is currently a basket case and even the French and Germans who have contributed nothing, yet gladly peddled their wares, would agree that Iraq is in no condition to be left to the warlords and religious fanatics that would surely jump into the present vacuum that has been created by the baath parties demise. Simplistic is the term for suggestions of that nature.

I did read almost the whole thread, and trust me i was happy of what u said on the most part. I wansn't talking to u when i was saying the negative things, i was talking to those who were saying negative things bout the US in this thread, once again is wasn;t toward u, and i appreciate your understaind of where i come from, i wasn;t picking a fight either. Although i am not saying i never will. As you know, we are spending A LOt of money over there, and warlords won't be taking it over, it could be a very nice place in a lil while.

[white devil]

ok you are American i dot know how to explain an example on you i will pick my self...:p

i am Lebanese we have been in a war for 25 years just because america wanted to give Israel a place to put it s ****ing ass in a teretory so where do they go to peacful country that has no wepons...the came to us killed my father was dead because he was buying me a medical when i was sik why?? because they thought he was a terorist {that s all what they can see about people protecting there country} why the hell should they go to Iraq kill people and then say they are terrorist because they are deffending there country ..if somone was attaking you r country will you say hey man {calm it down you can take over my country and we will let you rule it??}is that what you are going to say or you are going to get up and fight for you r country and tradition..WHY THE **** THEY CALL THAT TERRORSIT ATTACK:mad:
the sep11 happened do you know why because arabs have no ****ing guns to protect themselves the only way to do so is those attack.. Look i dont feal like talking a have my problems and what is going to happen if America doesnt leave the Iraq is going to end like what happened in lebanon we where fighting with rocks ****ING ROCKs and then they ran away of our country ..People don t know ARABS yet we have NOTHING IN OURE ****ING MINDE if any guy try to take over US we wont surrender untill there wont be anybody left standing on his feet .........:mad:
wait and see the result that will hapen if they dont leav there country...one last coment those 12 kids where terrorist WHAT THE **** IS THAT :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: