The Downfall of Honda (In America)

[roosterjuicer]

This is yet another post from my blog. Please discuss and click the link for pictures: http://fast-carsandfreedom.blogspot.com/2013/04/the-downfall-of-honda.html

The Downfall of Honda


Honda...oh how the mighty have fallen. As many of you know, I often like to wax nostalgic about my car obsessed youth. Although I grew up during two great hypercar wars, I also grew up, and started driving, during the greatest tuner car war since the 1960's.

The late 90's and early 2000's witnessed the rebirth of the affordable, moderately sporty cars for all. While the cars weren't as fast, the formula remained the same as the 60's: Take a boring, slow, everyday car and beef up the engine and the suspension. Sometimes the factory did this for you, sometimes you did it yourself. In the late 90's and early 2000's, the GTO and Nova were replaced by "import tuners" such as the Honda Civic Si, Acura Integra GS-R, and Mitsubishi Eclipse GST/X.

Used cars such as the Toyota Supra, Nissan 300zx, Mazda RX-7 and Mitsubishi 3000gt or new or used Mustangs and Camaros were much faster. The Supra, 300zx, RX-7 and 3000gt were the true "import tuners" of the time. They were and are still proper sports cars, thus, I will refer to the lesser cars (such as those pictured above) as "economy tuners."

Although the Supra's, Camaro's and the like were much better than the "economy tuners", they didn't occupy the right niche for most 16 year-olds at that time. First of all, they were too expensive for a first car. Second, they were too fast for a first car. Economy tuners weren't actually fast, they were just a little faster and a lot louder than the normal economy cars of the time. Case in point, I once raced a friend in his 1999 Civic Si in my mom's V-8 Mercury Mountaineer...it wasn't even close, the Mountaineer destroyed the Civic. My dad's Buick would have done the same. It didn't matter though, perception was all that mattered. How losing races to basic SUV's didn't ruin our perception of these cars until much later in life is beyond me. I guess that's why 16 year-olds aren't allowed to vote. Anyway, back to Honda.

At the time, Honda was, by far, the king of the castle among us. For the record, when I say "us" or "we" I mean adolescent boys in Orange County California who turned 16 around 1999-2000. Also, when I say "Honda" I also mean "Acura." If you didn't know that Acura is Honda's luxury arm, then please stop reading this blog.

You may be asking yourself, why Honda? Why not Toyota? At the time, Toyota was far down the road to its current soulless, yet lucrative, existence (FR-S not included). Toyota did not produced only one exciting car at that time. The Supra had been out of production for a few years. Everything else was dull, ugly, boring, and usually beige. (As you will see later, Honda is on that road now) Their only sporty car was the Celica GTS, although it was faster than most of the Honda's at that time, it was ugly and had a reputation as a "chick car". Being known as a "chick car" is a fate worse than death for a 16 year old male. This is why we weren't all driving the worlds best driver's car at the time, the Mazda Miata. Once again, another reason why 16 year-olds shouldn't vote.

For reasons unknown to science, Honda's were not chick cars. Honda's were seen as being as reliable as Toyota's but they were for people who actually had souls. More of "us" wanted them which led to a much larger aftermarket for them. Let's look at Honda's sporty lineup in 2000:


Civic SI: 160hp, 8500rpm redline, plus a giant VTEC sticker on the side.
Prelude: 200hp, 8000rpm redline, plus a giant VTEC sticker on the side.
S2000: 240hp, 9000rpm redline, rear wheel drive.
Acura Integra GS-R: 175hp, 8000rpm redline.
Acura Integra Type R: 197hp, 8500rpm redline, giant TYPE R sticker on the side.
Acura NSX: 290hp, 8500rpm redline, an aging supercar at the time.
Acura 3.2 TL/CL Type S: 260hp, 6100rpm redline, an inferior Japanese alternative to the 3 Series, but an alternative nonetheless. Basically the only Japanese 3 Series alternative at that time.

While the numbers may seem modest to car enthusiasts, they are actually not far off from what is common in the class today, besides the NSX of course. What the numbers don't tell you is how special and exciting all these cars were. They all had personality and spunk. Their high revving nature made them extremely fun to drive, the sound of a small engine at 8000+ RPM's is music to a gearhead's ears. The Integra Type R is still considered to be the best handling FWD car ever made. They also had ample room under the hood (besides the NSX) which meant they were relatively easy to work on. The Civic Si and Integra GS-R were the bench-line against which all other economy tuners were judged. The Integra Type R was practically a super car as far as we were concerned. The Integra Type-R's 1.8 liter engine revved to a sky high 8500rpm's and produced 197hp. It also had an amazing suspension, a limited slip differential and was lighter than the base Integra because Honda stripped almost all the sound deadening insulation out of it. Outside of the premium brands, nobody has a lineup as sporty as this today. Honda has not sold a car as extreme as the Integra Type R for quite some time.

For enthusiasts, Honda's lineup was probably the best lineup outside of premium or high performance brands in the late 90's and early 2000's. Simply put, Honda's and Acura's were a sporty alternative to the sea of beige being produced by Toyota and the irrelevance coming from Nissan. This made sense considering Honda's rich motorcycle and automobile racing heritage. There was a view that the technology developed on the race track trickled down to the street cars. This was especially true for the VTEC system and the big stickers that came with it.

The RSX launched in 2002 as a replacement for the Integra. RSX was a stupid name. Just like TL was a stupid name compared to "Legend," the car it replaced. As a fanboy, I didn't see it at the time but Acura was essentially "emblem chasing" the German luxury brands. BMW, Mercedes and Audi used only numerical or alphabetical names, thus, all the pretenders had to do the same (I'm looking at you too Cadillac). However, this was the first step towards Honda losing its identity. More on this later, back to the RSX.

While it may not seem like much now, the RSX Type-S was a truly great car when it came out. It had all the things that made the Integra special, it was affordable, sporty, relatively practical, economical, high revving, smooth shifting and it handled well. It also had a unique interior and a certain level of class that was missing from the Integra. The key to the RSX was the driving experience,which was anchored by its engine. The 2.0 liter four cylinder produced 200 horsepower and redlined at a silky smooth 8000rpm.


More importantly, it occupied a unique niche that even the Germans have tried and failed to fill: sporty entry level luxury. With the exception of the BMW 1 Series (and this is debatable due to its price), no car has filed the sporty entry level luxury niche like the RSX Type-S did. BMW tried with the 318ti and Mercedes tried with the C230 hatchback. They both failed. Miserably. Acura did not.

In my opinion, 2002 represents both the peak and the beginning of Honda's decline as a reputable performance brand. The RSX Type-S was launched and the NSX received a major face lift. The S2000 was still a high strung performer and the TL/CL Type-S were still reasonable performance alternatives to the 3 Series. Yet, 2002 was the beginning of the end. Since 2002, Honda has not produced a single redesigned performance model that is significantly better than the cars in its lineup between 1999-2000. From an enthusiast standpoint, Honda's new models have in fact become worse or been stagnant since 2002.

Honda's design department must be blind.

The Prelude ceased production in 2001 and the 2002 Civic SI (left) was overweight, under-powered, and had styling only a mother could love. Also, the US lineup lacked any car with the phrase "Type-R" affixed to the end of it. But this is merely the time of the iceberg.

The 2002 Civic SI provides a nice example of Honda's problems which started in 2002 and continue to this day. The 2000 Civic Si produced 160 horsepower, redlined at 8500rpms, did 0-60 in 7.2 and ran the 1/4 mile in 15.7 seconds. Source. The 2002 Si, despite gaining 150lbs, still produced 160hp but it did 0-60 in 7.6 and ran the quarter in 15.9. Not only was it slower it was far less dramatic and exciting. Although it produced more torque and had a more usable powerband, it revved to a lowly 6500rpms. Thus, it didn't make much power and it made even less drama. Source. Why Honda thought it was good to follow up a sporty car with a model that makes the same horsepower is beyond me, but this lack of pushing the envelope became a recurring theme.

[roosterjuicer]

cont...

In 2006, Honda eventually put the sweet and high revving 200 horsepower (actually 197 but what's 2 horsepower between friends?) engine from the RSX Type S in the Civic Si. Then, as part of what seems to be a company wide sleep induction campaign, the 2012 Si got a shocking 200 horsepower, but out of a 2.4 liter engine that revved to 7400rpm's. From an objective standpoint, the new engine was probably "better" but from a subjective standpoint, it was a step down. The car's soul had been removed. I don't know what Honda's engineers were doing during those 6 years, but they surely weren't working on the Civic Si's powertrain considering that some of Honda's competitors made over 240 horsepower at the time. Thus, the Si now not only makes less power than its rivals, it also has less soul. Not a good combination.

Another Honda great, the S2000, suffered a similar fate until it was discontinued in 2009. When the S2000 howled its way onto the scene in 1999 it squeezed 240 horsepower from a 2.0 liter engine at a stratospheric 9000rpm's. The engine made no torque but the horsepower and redline made it an

extremely exciting and unique car. In 2004 Honda replaced the 2.0 liter with a 2.2 litre that made the same horsepower but produced more torque. Seemingly, this was a good thing, but once again, like with the SI, the S2000 lost its soul.

Honda killed the S2000 in 2009, by then, it was Honda's only sports car besides the Civic Si, which, let's be honest, isn't a real sports car.

This lack of pushing the performance envelope was endemic throughout Honda. The RSX was killed in 2006. Acura has not had a 2 door model since. The best and saddest example of this performance neglect can be seen in the slow and steady death of the NSX.

The NSX was, at one time, an amazing car. It launched in 1990 with a sweet, smooth and high revving 3.0 liter v6 that produced 270hp and featured a healthy dose of Honda racing technology.

It did 0-60 in about 5.5 seconds. At the time, these were impressive numbers. More importantly, the car didn't break every three hundred feet like other supercars at the time. However, by the mid-90's the NSX was falling behind in the power department. The NSX's competition such as the Dodge Viper and Porsche 911 Turbo produced over 400 horsepower each and were finally reliable. The 911 Turbo was a true "every day supercar." The NSX remained essentially unchanged until 1997 when it received a new engine and 2002 when it received new headlights and tail lights.

The new engine was a step in the right direction. It was a 3.2 liter and produced 290hp. The 2002 NSX did 0-60 in approximately 5 seconds. Unfortunately, 12 years is an eternity in the world of high performance cars. By 2002, the NSX's competition had left it far behind (literally and figuratively). For example, a 2002 BMW M3, made 320 horsepower from a 3.2 liter engine. Keep in mind than an M3 is not a "supercar" and the NSX cost approximately twice as much. The NSX was not even in spitting distance of the supercars at the time. Due to neglect, the NSX went from hero to bottom of the barrel. The NSX fell so far that in 2001, the S2000 accelerated just as actually just as quickly as the NSX and was nearly as fast around a track. Source. The NSX was mercifully put out of its misery in 2005.

As shown by Toyota's success, a low volume supercar and sports cars may not matter to most, especially the mainstream media. However, the importance of so called performance and "halo" cars and should not be forgotten or ignored. I can not sum it up any better than Zora Arkus-Duntov, the "father" of the Corvette:

“THOUGHTS PERTAINING TO YOUTH, HOT RODDERS, AND CHEVROLET”
The Hot Rod movement and interest in things connected with hop-up and speed is still growing. As an indication: the publications devoted to hot rodding and hop-upping, of which some half dozen have a very large circulation and are distributed nationally, did not exist some six years ago.
From cover to cover, they are full of Fords. This is not surprising that the majority of hot rodders are eating, sleeping, and dreaming modified Fords. They know Ford parts from stern to stern better than Ford people themselves.
A young man buying a magazine for the first time immediatly becomes introduced to Ford. It is reasonable to assume that when hot rodders or hot rod-influenced persons buy transportation, they buy Fords. As they progress in age and income, they graduate from jalopies to second-hand Fords, then to new Fords.
Should we consider that it would be desirable to make these youths Chevrolet-minded? I think that we are in a position to carry out a successful attempt. However, there are many factors againt us:
Loyalty and experience with Ford.
Hop-up industry is geared with Ford.
Law of number-thousands are and will be working on Fords for active competition.
Appearance of Ford’s overhead V8, now one year ahead of us.
When a superior line of GM V8’s appeared, there where remarkably few attempts to develop these, and none too successful. Also, the appearance of the V8’s Chrysler was met with reluctance even though the success of Ardun-Fords conditioned them to the acceptance of Firepower.
This year is the first one in which isolated Chrysler development met with succsess. The Bonneville records are divided between Ardun-Fords and Chryslers.
Like all people, hot rodders are attracted by novelty. However, bitter experience has taught them that new development is costly and long, and therefore they are extremely conservative. From my observation, it takes an advanced hot rodder some three years to stumble toward the successful development of a new design. Overhead Fords will be in this stable between 1956 and 1957.
The slide rule potential of our RPO V8 engine is extremely high, but to let things run their natural course will put us one year behind-and then not too many hot rodders will pick Chevrolet for development. One factor which can largely overcome this handicap would be the availability of ready-enginered parts for higher output:
If the use of the Chevrolet engine would be made easy and the very first attempts would be crowned with succsess, the appeal of the new RPO V8 engine will take hold and not have the stigma of expensiveness like the Cadillac or Chrysler, and a swing to Chevrolet may be anticipated.This means the development of a range of special parts-camshafts, valves, springs, manifolds, pistons, and such-should be made available to the public.
To make good in this field, the RPO parts must pertain not only to the engine but to the chassis coponents as well. In fact, the use of light alloys and brake development, such as composite drums and discs, are already on the agenda of the Research and Development group.
These thoughts are offered for what they are worth-one man’s thinking aloud on the subject.
Signed: Z. Arkus-Duntov
dated: 12/16/53

With the death of the NSX, Honda has one "sport" model in its lineup. The Civic Si. Honda's traditional lineup is still made of good, competitive, cars (besides the Ridgeline of course). Acura's lineup, while good, is arguably not competitive. Acura, while ostensibly a "luxury" brand, does not offer an engine with much over 300 horsepower, a V-8 or RWD. The majority of Acura's lineup is simply rebadged Honda's. Luxury consumers are not stupid, for the most part, especially on the high end, they know a pretender when they see one.

I'm sure Honda's sales are fine. As Zora explained above, there are probably lots of buyers from my generation who purchased an Accord, CR-V or Pilot due to their positive experiences with the CRX's, Si's and GS-R's of their youth. The question is, in a few years, when the children of my generation go car shopping for the first time what will they want?

Nobody wants the car their parents drove. Buick and Cadillac learned this the hard way. BMW and Mercedes haven't had to learn this because they, especially BMW, continue to make very exciting performance and performance oriented cars.

I don't think its too late for Honda. Only time will tell, but Honda should should develop more sporty cars and try to regain its reputation as a fun, reliable, and sporty alternative before it is completely lost. It is a lot easier to repair an image (Ford) than it is to rebuild one (Cadillac/Buick).

[jcp123]

From where I sit, Honda has also fallen behind in terms of quality. Come 2000, Hondas were a cut above not only in driving fun - basic models had a bit of dash courtesy well-engineered chassis - but also in terms of their materials, workmanship, etc. Step into a Civic today, and it has become less fun to drive, the materials feel less convincing, and even feature content is a little behind the times. They are at least roomy though. Fuel economy, once a place where Honda was king, now sees Honda merely as one of the pack as competitors have caught up. Honda's hybrid setups lag far behind Toyota and are even probably behind Ford. Sure, the CRV is a nice cute-ute, and the Accord is still a serious force on the midsize sedan front, but they no longer have anything which stands head-and-shoulders above the competition. The Fit is perhaps the best subcompact on the market, but geared so short that it has been passed over by the hardcore fuel economy crowd. Honda has failed to keep pioneering what can go into a car, and as a result Honda has lost a lot of its cachet.

I agree, though, that they are not beyond hope. I do believe they still have tons of bright engineers working there who simply need to be both let loose and guided towards superiority once again.

[f6fhellcat13]

Good writeup, rj!

Fortunately, all is well: Honda/Acura to Completely Revert to 1991 Lineup | Japanese Nostalgic Car (http://japanesenostalgiccar.com/2013/04/01/hondaacura-to-completely-revert-to-1991-lineup/)

[TVR IS KING]

If you didn't know that Acura is Honda's luxury arm, then please stop reading this blog.
Oh come on...All that proves is that you're not American. Acura is nothing more than an American branding exercise, it's meaningless to the rest of the world.

[Ferrer]

I think it is far too US based. In Europe the story is quite different.

High performance Hondas have been far and few in between, mostly Type R Civics, and the odd NSX and S2000. But the thing is standard Hondas have never been too popular either. They've always seem to have tried to be a little bit above mainstream manufacturers, but not quite to premium-level.

Basically cars are moderately interesting and well made, but pretty much non-players in the market and quite expensive. They have tried to go European with the two latest generations of Civics and the newest 1.6 litre diesel, but it remains to be seen if they will succeed.

Oh come on...All that proves is that you're not American. Acura is nothing more than an American branding exercise, it's meaningless to the rest of the world.
Indeed. And many Acuras are just rebadged EDM/JDM Hondas.

[roosterjuicer]

Oh come on...All that proves is that you're not American. Acura is nothing more than an American branding exercise, it's meaningless to the rest of the world.

That was my point, plus I was trying to be funny. I guess I failed at both :D.

I just meant that if you didn't know Acura's were rebadged Honda's, you aren't into cars enough to care about performance oriented models.

[jcp123]

I'll give 'em this: they apparently still have the top-rated minivan on the market.

[RacingManiac]

Seems relevant here:
Generation Why: Demographics And The Insanity Of Japans Golden Bubble | The Truth About Cars (http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2013/04/generation-why-demographics-and-the-insanity-of-japans-golden-bubble/)

[jcp123]

That's a pretty good take on it. Mostly I had thought they just lost their way; it makes sense after reading that article.

However, while it explains the problems with their bringing performance cars to the fore, it doesn't yet explain why they are not at least maintaning leadership in initial quality which used to simply trounce everyone else, and no longer does.

[Kitdy]

Oh come on...All that proves is that you're not American. Acura is nothing more than an American branding exercise, it's meaningless to the rest of the world.

Thanks from Canada!

We even had a rebadged Honda Civic sold as an Acura CSX here and here alone.

I think Acura and Mazda have much larger share of the Canadian market than US market.

[jcp123]

Acura CSX

I saw one of those once. British Columbia tags sitting in a mall parking lot in California. Wondered if it had any extra goodies or a GSR motor under the hood or something...

[Kitdy]

Do you see any Canadian plates in Texas by any chance? I see tons of US plates in the GTA; more than other provinces, which I suppose isn't surprising.

[jcp123]

Once in a great while. Mostly Ontario. Would have thought I'd see a lot of Alberta plates piloted by Texans up there working the oilfields, but I haven't seen any yet. See more Mexican plates down here, though still not many. Did see one Peugeot driven by an insanely hot young lady carrying Nuevo Leon tags about a year ago or so.

[Dino Scuderia]

From a while back.

The Fall of the Honda Civic - Ultimatecarpage.com forums (http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43705)

[NSXType-R]

Nothing new honestly, I have been complaining nonstop about Hondas for a long time now. You just said it more eloquently than I have. The only car I really like is the TSX wagon right now, and even that is going away soon.

The new Accord certainly looks promising though, however.

Honda is being incredibly conservative right now and is just sticking to what sells and not catering to enthusiasts. It's a sad fact, but business is business.

That being said, I'm still being cautiously optimistic. The Scion FR-S/BR-Z is a step in a great direction and I hope a trend for Japanese makers.

SUVs and crossovers sell great, and other than the ZDX and the Crosstour, the CR-V, MDX and RDX all seem to be doing okay.

Another reason why automakers are so heavily focused on SUVs and not wagons, which I love, is that the fuel economy regulations favor SUVs.

Honestly, even though Acura was the first luxury marque from Japan, it is by far the weakest now. At least Lexus has the LF-A halo car and they went bonkers with that. The new NSX seems too compromised by bean counters. And with so many concept cars, I've lost interest in it. Infiniti is doing pretty well too, with interesting RWD cars.

And quick question- isn't the Civic up for a redesign soon? The Civic was redesigned many years ago now, and I feel like it's time for a full model change.

[RacingManiac]

And quick question- isn't the Civic up for a redesign soon? The Civic was redesigned many years ago now, and I feel like it's time for a full model change.

The current car is new as of 2011....

[jcp123]

The current car is new as of 2011....

Looks like a mid-cycle refresh to eke a few more years out of it rather than a total redesign. I kind of like what they did with it, but I am still not sold on the digital gauges...in the Honda or anything else.

Incidentally, it's always irked me that digital gauges were for old people until Honda started using them, now they are all the rage.

[Niko_Fx]

Good writeup, rj!

Fortunately, all is well: Honda/Acura to Completely Revert to 1991 Lineup | Japanese Nostalgic Car (http://japanesenostalgiccar.com/2013/04/01/hondaacura-to-completely-revert-to-1991-lineup/)

I'm pretty sure that was an April's fools joke :)

Not surprised at all with Honda losing some market share in the US. Their models are boring and their pricing can't compete with other manufacturers.

Toyota is another manufacturer going through the same crap. As a matter of fact, Toyota's "cool car" situation is SO bad, that they release a RWD sporty-looking car with an unbelievably amazing 200 horsepower and everyone thinks that it is the greatest thing ever..

[jcp123]

I'm not one of the fanboys of the Toyobaru, but I think they made a good, balanced package. There's not much to fault aside from detail stuff. It's also pretty true to the AE86 from which they are plumbing a lot of its supposed heritage. It's not the most powerful car around, but it doesn't have to be.

Having said that...turbo it.

[Ferrer]

Toyota is another manufacturer going through the same crap. As a matter of fact, Toyota's "cool car" situation is SO bad, that they release a RWD sporty-looking car with an unbelievably amazing 200 horsepower and everyone thinks that it is the greatest thing ever..
That's because well... it kind of is.

[RacingManiac]

Looks like a mid-cycle refresh to eke a few more years out of it rather than a total redesign. I kind of like what they did with it, but I am still not sold on the digital gauges...in the Honda or anything else.

Incidentally, it's always irked me that digital gauges were for old people until Honda started using them, now they are all the rage.

Nope, its a new car....they mid-cycle refreshed in 2012 because the styling was panned to be too bland...

Its as much of a new car as it was from 996->997, or MK5 to MK6 Golf....

[Niko_Fx]

While I do like the FRS, it is not a big deal. A base model V6 Mustang (secretary car) can spank that Scion....

I stopped by the Subaru dealership not too long ago to check out a BRZ and after I told the salesman that I was just curious and wanted to look at the car but that in fact if I ever were to buy a Subaru it would be a WRX he immediately agreed. Then a couple of other sales guys joined in and started criticizing the BRZ.. Why? Because a WRX is 10x as cool... but from a Toyota perspective, this FRS is uber amazing.

Again, I like the car, I truly do but it is sad that this 200hp car is the hottest thing that Toyota has baked in a long time and that it can't even compete with base models from other manufacturers.

We need a Supra, pronto!

[RacingManiac]

Its not a Halo car, its meant to be a Miata style car with roof. Comes with all the ups and downs of that concept. Lack of power or not, the car is pretty well done, and I've seen quite a few driven in capable hands on autoX that they are plenty fast even on Prius tire....

[Niko_Fx]

its meant to be a Miata style car with roof

Further proves my point, Toyota and Honda have nothing exciting going on.

Other than their lack of sports cars (that merely accounts for a small percentage of their decline), they need to redesign some of their core models and provide consumers with a fresh new look. It took me a while to identify a brand new Accord (as the "new" Accord) the other day driving around, it looked like a 5 year old model.

[Ferrer]

Saying that the Toyobaru isn't as fast as some (insert random name here) other car is missing the point of it.

It's a bit like the CR-Z. There are many cars better than it, but it is the future.

[jcp123]

Its not a Halo car, its meant to be a Miata style car with roof. Comes with all the ups and downs of that concept. Lack of power or not, the car is pretty well done, and I've seen quite a few driven in capable hands on autoX that they are plenty fast even on Prius tire....

I agree. It's exactly what it was designed to be, and does pretty well for it. It is not, nor was it meant to be, anything to replace the Supra/NSX/RX7/300z/3000gt set.

I am not sure we'll see the likes of those cars again. Elsewhere on the site you may have read about authorities clamping down on "reckless" driving, plus factors like rising fuel prices and high insurance costs will at best further delay a return to Japan's automotive glory days.

Having said that, I would appreciate at least a better focus on keeping their bread-n-butters a step ahead of the competition, which they are not, for the most part, doing.

[Ferrer]

By the way, the new japanese halo cars are the hybrids. Things have moved on chaps!

[jcp123]

And even then the Prius is the only one worth mentioning. Ford's got better hybrids than anyone but Toyota.

[Niko_Fx]

Brand loyalty will only get you so far, that's all I'm saying.

[jcp123]

Brand loyalty will only get you so far, that's all I'm saying.

Agreed. I think it's gotten them as far as it's going to. Word around here is that a lot more imports are getting traded for domestics as they have effectively caught up in a number of ways.

[RacingManiac]

Further proves my point, Toyota and Honda have nothing exciting going on.

Other than their lack of sports cars (that merely accounts for a small percentage of their decline), they need to redesign some of their core models and provide consumers with a fresh new look. It took me a while to identify a brand new Accord (as the "new" Accord) the other day driving around, it looked like a 5 year old model.

Miata is the most raced/rallied/autox car in the country...aside from people who bench race, most who actually want to buy a car a start racing the next day, a Miata is what they go for. If BRZ/FRS is half as popular as Miata is, the product is a hit....

For all the coolness of Supra/RX7/NSX or whatever, the amount I see in a year is minuscule, and even smaller percentage of that is people who actually do anything sporting with it...

As far as the mainstream car goes, they are what they are, mainstream. They are what basic mode of transportation is supposed to be. You can tell Toyota Honda to design a fresh and exciting looking car, so people will buy them. Then you can have VW who actually made their car more "Toyota/Honda" like, and they are selling better than they ever had in US. We are not their market target, they are not marketing a Camry or Accord to enthusiasts. They are marketing them to someone who just want a car.

TBH too, even these bread and butter car are not like what they are 10 years ago neither. Who can foresee car now, like a 4 cylinder Accord, is a 6.5sec 0-60, 15 sec 1/4 mile car, that can get close to 40MPG?

[jcp123]

Mazda's kind of an anomaly. They are a smaller automaker, which means they don't have huge resources but they are more free and agile. Their cars reflect that.

[Ferrer]

Agreed. I think it's gotten them as far as it's going to. Word around here is that a lot more imports are getting traded for domestics as they have effectively caught up in a number of ways.
It's curious, that domestic v import thing in the US. Here pretty much everything is seen as domestic or import and there are little differences between those distinctions. Only countries with strong automotive conglomerates (and I'd say there are only three, France, Italy and Germany) could actually discuss domestic v imports themes.

TBH too, even these bread and butter car are not like what they are 10 years ago neither. Who can foresee car now, like a 4 cylinder Accord, is a 6.5sec 0-60, 15 sec 1/4 mile car, that can get close to 40MPG?
An entry level mainstream car which can do 0-60 in 6"5 seconds? God, European cars are slow...

Mazda's kind of an anomaly. They are a smaller automaker, which means they don't have huge resources but they are more free and agile. Their cars reflect that.
And they are also usually geared towards the driver. Mazdas are usually very likeable.

[RacingManiac]

An entry level mainstream car which can do 0-60 in 6"5 seconds? God, European cars are slow...



I think its that the new cars are too unnecessarily fast....I mean a V6 Camry/Accord/Altma are all pushing 300bhp(FWD!), and they are mid-5 0-60 car. They are faster than most hot hatches in a straightline....Who needs that in a bread and butter car? soccer mom won't need it....

[roosterjuicer]

It's a bit like the CR-Z. There are many cars better than it, but it is the future.

If the CR-Z is the future, shoot me now please. I would happily pay double for a FR-S than a CR-Z. Its horrible.

I think the FR-S/BRZ is a great car. Think about it from a 16 year old's perspective. Its cheap, good on gas, good looking. Its not fast, but its got enough power to move around and have fun with. Its a perfect first car, not fast enough to kill you but fast enough to have fun.

[roosterjuicer]

They are faster than most hot hatches in a straightline....

I've been saying it for years. Most (not all) "hot hatches" are actually not hot at all.

[RacingManiac]

I still won't drive a Camry to autoX though...lol

And really, they are still faster than most cars in the bread and butter segment in EU market. US market is very skewed...

[Ferrer]

Well the thing is, hot hatches are an entirely European thing and as such has to be taken in its own context. Many of them aren't very fast in straight line, but then again Europe has fewb starights and expensive petrol.

On the other hand show a good one, like a Twingo RS or a Swift Sport, a proper mountain road and a Mustang GT or a Camaro SS will fail to keep up with them.

If the CR-Z is the future, shoot me now please. I would happily pay double for a FR-S than a CR-Z. Its horrible.
The good thing about the CR-Z is that it is the first affordable green-eco car to be designed towards driving fun. That's the breakthrough of it. It may be a little bit too slow and a little bit too fat, but it is a landmark car. It shows that green can be fun and it will probably be the template for future fun cars. I think it is a much underrated and misunderstood car.

I've also read it's quite good in the corners.

[jcp123]

I have read the opposite...that the CR-Z pretty roundly disappoints in terms of driving fun. I'd rather have the first-gen Insight.

[RacingManiac]

I have read the opposite...that the CR-Z pretty roundly disappoints in terms of driving fun. I'd rather have the first-gen Insight.

This....I've heard this as well....

[roosterjuicer]

On the other hand show a good one, like a Twingo RS or a Swift Sport, a proper mountain road and a Mustang GT or a Camaro SS will fail to keep up with them.



That's the craziest thing I've heard all week.

[RacingManiac]

That's the craziest thing I've heard all week.

Why is that crazy?

[jcp123]

That's the craziest thing I've heard all week.

I agree. They don't handle half-bad these days. Still wouldn't buy a car for the handling anyway, though. Not my thing. And don't have any roads to enjoy it on around here even if that were my thing.

[Ferrer]

That's the craziest thing I've heard all week.
It is not only outright performance/speed/grip which would make the hot hatches faster but also, since they are designed to be driven on these sort of roads, the confidence they give you when you have to drive in attack mode there.

They change direction more easily, are easier to place on the road, fit better on narrow country lanes, it's not the same stopping several times 1800kg than topping 900kg and they usually are fitted with high performance summer tyres (which for us here in the south are "all-year" tyres).

Of course, if you show them a quarter mile it's a lost battle (heck, if we take into account the times dicussed here, an entry level Camry would get to 60 about two and half seconds faster than the Tiwngo RS) but as long as there are corners hot hatches will reign supreme.

It is not a bad thing. Regional performance cars are developped with regional constraints in mind. We have expensive petrol and lots of corners, so right from the beggining there was no point in developping big powerful engines, which is why most hot hatchbacks have buzzy little four cylinder engines. We instead spent the money on suspension and brakes.

It is the opposite in the US where there aren't many corners and petrol is cheap and plentiful. So there was little point in developping suspension and brakes. Instead US car manufacturers concentrated on developping powerful great big V8s with amazing soundtracks.

There is no better way, just different approaches to do a high performance vehicle. Hot hatches and muscle cars are actually the two sides of the same high performance coin.

I agree. They don't handle half-bad these days. Still wouldn't buy a car for the handling anyway, though. Not my thing. And don't have any roads to enjoy it on around here even if that were my thing.
For me it's pretty much number one.

[RacingManiac]

I actually think out and out handling of the new Pony cars is probably quite good, the issue is its hard to access to an average person. Big and heavy car with poor sight line is hard to place on the road, and thus its harder to judge the limit. On a track or autocross course where there aren't much to hit or avoid its not an issue, but on a quick piece of road its going to manifest itself....

[jcp123]

True. The Mustangs I drove a while back did feel rather heavy when tossing them into a corner.

[NSXType-R]

I actually think out and out handling of the new Pony cars is probably quite good, the issue is its hard to access to an average person. Big and heavy car with poor sight line is hard to place on the road, and thus its harder to judge the limit. On a track or autocross course where there aren't much to hit or avoid its not an issue, but on a quick piece of road its going to manifest itself....

I agree- I went to the NY Auto Show just this Saturday and I feel like American cars have poor visibility. The only car that I felt looked alright from the inside out was the Ford Taurus, and that has "captains chairs". The Chevy Volt and I believe Malibu I sat in, both were terrible- the dash was incredibly high and the hood I have no idea where it ended.

Same issue with the Ford Mustang. I sat in a 5.0 V8 and I could barely see over the dash.

To be fair however, I didn't know how to adjust the seats, so that may have been factor.

[Ferrer]

I agree- I went to the NY Auto Show just this Saturday and I feel like American cars have poor visibility. The only car that I felt looked alright from the inside out was the Ford Taurus, and that has "captains chairs". The Chevy Volt and I believe Malibu I sat in, both were terrible- the dash was incredibly high and the hood I have no idea where it ended.

Same issue with the Ford Mustang. I sat in a 5.0 V8 and I could barely see over the dash.

To be fair however, I didn't know how to adjust the seats, so that may have been factor.
This is something that also happens to many European cars, like the Citroën DS4, the Mercedes-Benz A-Class or the Range Rover Evoque. The view ahead is not so bad, but laterally and specially backwards they are almost impossible to see out of...

[roosterjuicer]

They change direction more easily, are easier to place on the road, fit better on narrow country lanes, it's not the same stopping several times 1800kg than topping 900kg and they usually are fitted with high performance summer tyres (which for us here in the south are "all-year" tyres).



You need to just read some reviews. The new pony cars are not one trick ponies (see what I did there?)

While I don't disagree about fitting on country roads, the "hot" hatches are nowhere near the same league as the new mustang or camaro in handling. A camaro ss runs the slalom at 68.2mph, a focus ST runs it at 65.8. While a hot hatch may be more fun to drive, almost all of them would be destroyed in a road race.

[RacingManiac]

You need to just read some reviews. The new pony cars are not one trick ponies (see what I did there?)

While I don't disagree about fitting on country roads, the "hot" hatches are nowhere near the same league as the new mustang or camaro in handling. A camaro ss runs the slalom at 68.2mph, a focus ST runs it at 65.8. While a hot hatch may be more fun to drive, almost all of them would be destroyed in a road race.

Slalom test can be skewed quite easily one way or another. Since there are no standard in slalom test procedure....

While I don't disagree with the premise that a new pony car, even a V6 one, can be quite fast around a track or even an autocross course, the speed which the hot hatches covers ground is not something to sneered at....I live in a region where pony cars are probably as popular as Miata at local autocrosses, so its a bit of a skewed population(I am in Metro Detroit...), but in general when the going gets tight smaller size car usually prevails. Granted, the fastest car last year in the series were between a C5 Corvette, and a 1st gen ACR Dodge Neon....

[jcp123]

Those ACRs were bad little cars...

Pony cars achieve handling through brute force. While their suspension setups are better than those of yore, it's mostly down to sheer grip when it comes to hustling them through corners, not a whole lot of grace, by and large, but there are exceptions.

Hot hatches are handicapped with their front wheel drive, but their light weight and mostly more advanced suspensions make up a lot of the difference. What they may or may not lack in sheer grip they usually make up for with better-engineered behavior in hard cornering. The best of the best even program a little bit of controllable drift into the rear end to counter any understeer.

[RacingManiac]

Not necessarily better or more advanced suspension, but just lighter and still plenty of tires...

Hot hatches are vastly compromised things, because most are based on their bean counting "everyman-car" econobox counter part, things are designed and made on a limited budget for maximum cost saving. Recently they start to have more sophisticated suspension(independent rear suspension, what!), but they are typically made to have suspension that takes up less space for cargo, front Mcstrut, and FWD. Sporting intent though from those came from good old fashion work since you can't splurge on fancy hardware(they still have to be relatively affordable), so decent ride and handling work goes into them to make it work. Their biggest advantage is still weight and size.

[jcp123]

I would have thought that the majority of hot hatches had an indie rear suspension setup? Pardon my ignorance...I don't keep up on these new cars like i used to...

[RacingManiac]

In US maybe....Focus MK1 was the pioneer in that respect, Golf MK5 basically copied the Focus setup. A lot of the VAG product in Skoda/SEAT shared the setup. Most of the French still uses torsion beam rear to good effect. Mini has IRS, but I really don't class Mini as the same style of "hot hatches" as it was more engineered as a sporty car that happened to front drive hatchback, then a hatchback made to be sporty...It also is significantly less useful as a hatch...

[jcp123]

Focus had a damn good setup too, IMHO...I had two of 'em. ZTS sedan and SVT 3-door. Unfortunate they didn't take the time to make the car as a whole as reliable as their suspension was good.

[Ferrer]

You need to just read some reviews. The new pony cars are not one trick ponies (see what I did there?)

While I don't disagree about fitting on country roads, the "hot" hatches are nowhere near the same league as the new mustang or camaro in handling. A camaro ss runs the slalom at 68.2mph, a focus ST runs it at 65.8. While a hot hatch may be more fun to drive, almost all of them would be destroyed in a road race.
Well played! ;)

The thing is, a slalom doesn't even get close to a full mountain road. Not only mountain roads are much longer than slaloms, but they are also full of unexpected conditions, off-camber corners, decreasing/increasing radius corners, tight lanes, hills, blind corners and so on.

It's not also about outright performance only, but the confidence the car gives you to use that performance. The small, light and agile hot hatches give you more confidence to brake later and hit apexes harder than a big, cumbersome car does no matter how good it is.

In this aspect the newer muscle cars must feel a lot like the Jaguar XF 4.2 I drive from time to time. Yes, it does handle well and it is enjoyable in a tight mountain road, but it simply does not feel as natural as a tiny B-road blaster, it feels like outside of its element. So you end up braking earlier and going a little bit slower through the corners than you would in say a Mini Cooper S (which I also used to drive).

Not necessarily better or more advanced suspension, but just lighter and still plenty of tires...

Hot hatches are vastly compromised things, because most are based on their bean counting "everyman-car" econobox counter part, things are designed and made on a limited budget for maximum cost saving. Recently they start to have more sophisticated suspension(independent rear suspension, what!), but they are typically made to have suspension that takes up less space for cargo, front Mcstrut, and FWD. Sporting intent though from those came from good old fashion work since you can't splurge on fancy hardware(they still have to be relatively affordable), so decent ride and handling work goes into them to make it work. Their biggest advantage is still weight and size.
Indeed.

But there's a crucial difference. In the same way that making an US car fast in straight line is easy because big powerful engines are plentiful and readily available, it is also easy to make an economy European car a mountain road champion, because the base car already was designed to go well in the corners in the first place.

Even mainstream, entry level versions of EDM cars can be driven fast in the corners. It'll take a day to get to each corner, but when turning you don't need to slow down much or even at all! Forgive me for insisting, but even our entry level Hyundai i30 would surprise you, friends from the other side of the pond! :)

[jcp123]

Here's something posted at another site I visit:

Michael Accavitti Senior VP of American Honda Motor Company - Honda - April 10, 2013

There's been a great deal of positive attention to some organizational changes at Honda that took effect this month. These changes will strengthen and improve our efforts to bring innovative and affordable new Honda and Acura products to market. But if there's one thing that I've learned through my career in the auto industry, it's that sometimes it's as important for people to understand why a company has embarked on a challenging new direction, as it is to know what the company is doing.

Some have interpreted our strategy as a wholesale shift of our operations out of Southern California. This is not the case at all. This is an evolutionary step, that will efficiently group key executives under one roof to make high-level decision making close to the major operations in Ohio that are critical to new product introductions. But top executives remain in California as well. And overall, with more than 2,500 Honda associates on our Torrance campus we expect fewer than 50 jobs will transfer to Ohio.

In the face of today's hyper-competitive marketplace, Honda's operations here in our North America business region now have a greater responsibility within Honda's global organization. To fulfill this new and larger role, we have taken steps to centralize decision-making and streamline the new model process. In this way, we will advance our ability to quickly deliver high quality and affordable products to our customers in this region and around the globe.

One of the key goals of our organizational changes is to shorten the time from when we finalize a product design to when that all-new product reaches our customers. After all, what seems like a good idea today, might not meet customer expectations tomorrow, if it takes too long, or the cost is too high, to bring that idea to market. So, we must accelerate our ability to introduce new models at more affordable prices to increase our competitiveness.

This strategy led to the organizational changes which serve to centralize decision-making for our North American regional operations in Ohio. Why Ohio? After more than 30 years of building and developing products in America, it is already the center point of our engineering capabilities. We are leveraging our significant investments in Ohio where we have established two major auto plants, our North American purchasing operations, North American Engineering Center and our major R&D center.

At the same time, our presence in California will remain robust and vibrant. The headquarters of our sales and marketing operations, and a number of other key operations that support them, remain firmly rooted in Torrance, California. As one recent example, we just announced a new structure for our automobile advertising that will strengthen our marketing efforts with a Honda team in California at the hub of the strategy.

In fact, we have Honda operations all over North America that will remain in their current locations and focused more than ever on their same core responsibilities. This is especially true for our efforts to design, build and sell Honda and Acura products.

Our North American operations have been tasked with greater responsibilities within Honda's global business. We already have 14 major production operations in North America, building a wide range of Honda and Acura automobiles, automobile engines and transmissions, Honda all-terrain vehicles, and power equipment products such as lawn mowers, mini-tillers and general purpose engines, using domestic and globally sourced parts.

Now, based on investments in just the past two years of about $2.5 billion, our North American auto production network is beginning to take a lead role in launching key global models like the future all-new generation of the Honda Civic. Our plants here will prepare new models for production and share the production know-how with other Honda plants around the globe. This is a big deal -- because in the past, this lead role was generally done in Japan.

We also have 14 R&D facilities in America that design and develop the majority of the light truck products that we build here. These operations have taken on increased responsibility to create products that are just right for the needs of our customers in North America, and take even greater advantage of local parts sourcing and manufacturing. This includes leading development of both the next generation Honda Civic for North America, as well as the Acura NSX supercar. This is a major component of our strategy to increase the speed of development, the affordability of our products, and the competitiveness of the Honda and Acura brands.

We also will be ratcheting up automobile exports from North America to markets around the world. We expect to double last year's export total of almost 100-thousand units, so that in the coming years we will be a net exporter - meaning we will export more cars from North America than we import from Japan.

It's a bold plan that builds on the foundation we have established during the past three decades. To make all of this work, we took action to streamline our corporate structure, which will help develop a common process across all of our sales, production, R&D and purchasing operations in this region. And that is something that is not only increasing the competitiveness and stability of Honda in North America - it will improve the quality and affordability of our products for our customers. And that is the ultimate “why” for these latest steps in our history in North America.

[NSXType-R]

There is so much corporate talk in that statement!

If they're going to streamline their cars, they can start by streamlining the damn ZDX and Crosstour out of the lineup. Notice how he doesn't even mention what sort of cars he's going to build.

[Kitdy]

streamlining the damn ZDX and Crosstour out of the lineup.

Trololol.

No lies: I see more Ferraris than ZDXi.

[NSXType-R]

Honda is on the cusp of launching a new Civic Type R, which they're developing to be the fastest FWD car to lap the Nurburgring.

As any of you may know, I may be the biggest fan of Honda on this forum.

But at this point, Honda absolutely is not interested in bringing that car over, or anything else that interests me other than SUVs and CUVs. The only real bright spots honestly are the Accord sedan, coupe, Fit... and the TSX. The Element is going away, I don't care for the CR-V or Pilot and the beak grilled TL, RLX and ILX can go away for all I care.

I'm at the point of exasperation with the company and I feel like saying, "Who cares? We won't get it anyway."

sigh...

[RacingManiac]

We are getting NSX....and I think that will be quite an interesting car that might be quite good...

Albeit it won't be anywhere near affordable...

Civic SI, K24 and all, is still pretty nice IMO. I still won't rule one out in the future, especially considering the engine might be less of a headache in terms of complexity compare to a modern turbo direct injection 4 like my car...probably slower though...

For all the bashing Honda gets, they still sell a car that has 6MT, standard front LSD, and 200bhp that handles well. And for not a lot of money at all. Its still a pretty "old school" car without the electronic based handling enhancement...

And honest doesn't look that bad to me in Sedan form...

http://www.honda.ca/Content/honda.ca/en/2013/civic_sedan_si/si_10208/Gallery_Exterior_GA/2013_Civic_Sedan_Si_gallery_ext_930x555_07.jpg

[jcp123]

Only gripe I have heard for the K24-powered Civic is that it steering is rather vague.

[RacingManiac]

Shit tires will do that....

[Jacob Potts]

This has been an interesting thread. The posters have covered many of the aspects of Honda's "decline".

One massive factor that every poster has missed has been the effects of government bureaucracy on Honda.

In the U.S., ecological and safety mavens approach the subject of humans driving automobiles with dread. To the mavens, humans (that's us) are stupid for even driving a car at all. When we do drive, they think we are ignorant, slothful, "unsafe at any speed", to coin a phrase. The self-appointed government experts' end-game is to end all humans driving all vehicles, period, full stop.

In response to such governmental interference, Honda has historically adopted a stance of compliance. Honda's compliance has often lead to interesting technical innovation. For example, when the first wave of U.S. smog laws hit, Honda came up with the CVCC head, which met the requirements without the horrific thermal reactors and all the other mess.

When "sports cars" were frown upon, Honda abandoned the CRX and introduced the del Sol. The del Sol could do what the CRX did, but did not feel like it was a sports car. In this thread we call it "losing its soul," but Honda very likely would call it responding to "market conditions". Of course, "market conditions" is a euphemism for governmental interference, not responding to what we, the customers, wanted.

The U.S. government wants us Americans to drive gray flannel sedans, nameless, soul-less transpo-modules. As has been its wont for decades, Honda has quietly complied. Honda still earns "10 Best" nominations from the automotive press, but it is only the best of what the ever-restrictive hand of government allows.

All of you in South America, Europe, Asia and Australia have different forms of government, springing from your own histories and cultures. You can best comment on how your governments have killed Honda.

[Kitdy]

... Why then do quarter tons consistently top sales in the US if the government wants to cut emissions etc? Why are cars more powerful, faster, and safer now than they have ever been? Why is the US near the very top of large countries with cars per person? Why is the US one of the most polluting per capita, and possessing on average the most powerful cars of all large, populous, developed economy countries?

[Ferrer]

It seems Honda is rising up again.

We are getting this (in 2036 probably):

http://www.autocasion.com/actualidad/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Nuevo-Honda-Civic-Type-R-2013-1.jpg

And the Japanese are preparing a production version of that (even if it'll probably be front wheel drive...):

http://noticias.coches.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Honda-S660-Concept-2013-02-650x433.jpg

[NSXType-R]

Jacob Potts- as unhappy as I am with Honda, I don't think they're being targeted unfairly by the US government's regulations. Their regulations are across the board and seem to affect every car manufacturer equally.

I think it's more likely that the bean counters got ahold of the company and decided to put forward the ZDX and the Crosstour. Honda has plenty of very innovative JDM products that Honda Motors of America don't think are relevant here.

Like you said- even in the constraints of emissions, Honda was a very innovative company. Where that innovation is now... I have no idea. I remain optimistic, but I am not holding my breath.

By the way, RacingManiac- I do agree there are some bright spots in Honda's lineup- the Civic Si for instance. But there really isn't much more that I'm interested in anymore.

[Ferrer]

By the way, in several European countries, Honda ceased the commercialisation of the Insight and the CR-Z, amongst them, Spain.

Apparently, they are planning on making this an Europe-wide plan.

[RacingManiac]

By the way, RacingManiac- I do agree there are some bright spots in Honda's lineup- the Civic Si for instance. But there really isn't much more that I'm interested in anymore.

Thats the same with any mainstream company though....Do I care about any Toyota aside from Toyobaru? or any VW outisde of the fast(ish) Golf?

BTW why would S660 be FWD? The car its emulating is a MR Kei-car....

[Ferrer]

BTW why would S660 be FWD? The car its emulating is a MR Kei-car....
I know, but surely they'll find a way to justify the front wheel drive for cost reasons.

[NSXType-R]

By the way, in several European countries, Honda ceased the commercialisation of the Insight and the CR-Z, amongst them, Spain.

Apparently, they are planning on making this an Europe-wide plan.

That's not very surprising. Was the CR-Z the USDM version where there were no back seats?

At least you guys get the Civic hatchback which is really cool looking.

The Insight isn't all that great. I like the hatchback, but I hate the drivetrain.


Thats the same with any mainstream company though....Do I care about any Toyota aside from Toyobaru? or any VW outisde of the fast(ish) Golf?

BTW why would S660 be FWD? The car its emulating is a MR Kei-car....

That's true, although as a whole I think Lexus and Infiniti has more interesting luxury cars than Acura does.

Nah, I don't think the S660 would be FWD. Small Kei sports cars have always been around. The Daihatsu Copen and Mazda Cappuccino are good examples.

[Ferrer]

That's not very surprising. Was the CR-Z the USDM version where there were no back seats?

At least you guys get the Civic hatchback which is really cool looking.

The Insight isn't all that great. I like the hatchback, but I hate the drivetrain.
Nope, the four seater model. And it was only available with the manual gearbox. List price, it was quite expensive, but you could get very good offers.

By the way, the Daihatsu Copen was front wheel drive.

[RacingManiac]

s and Infiniti has more interesting luxury cars than Acura does.

Nah, I don't think the S660 would be FWD. Small Kei sports cars have always been around. The Daihatsu Copen and Suzuki Cappuccino are good examples.

FIFY...

Also Mazda's is Autozam AZ-1...

[pimento]

Also the Copen is FWD.

[NSXType-R]

Nope, the four seater model. And it was only available with the manual gearbox. List price, it was quite expensive, but you could get very good offers.

By the way, the Daihatsu Copen was front wheel drive.


FIFY...

Also Mazda's is Autozam AZ-1...


Also the Copen is FWD.

Ah, point taken gents!

[pimento]

By the way, the Daihatsu Copen was front wheel drive.


Also the Copen is FWD.

Way to read, jackass.

:o

[Kitdy]

Sometimes, I see Nissan Figaros. They are so cute!

[henk4]

two weeks ago I did some miles in a Honda CR-V while in Canada. It was my first ride ever in a Honda, even as a passenger. I was pleasantly surprised, the quality impression was quite good, no noises and rumbles, a rather firm ride and solid steering. I think it had a 2.4 litre petrol engine, combined with a 5 speed autobox, a combination which fits quite well in the relaxed traffic around Calgary.

[Kitdy]

How common a sight is a Honda in the Netherlands or the continent at large? The CR-V and RAV4 are beyond ubiquitous here.

I should hope you enjoyed your stay out west. Where else did you go?

[henk4]

How common a sight is a Honda in the Netherlands or the continent at large? The CR-V and RAV4 are beyond ubiquitous here.

I should hope you enjoyed your stay out west. Where else did you go?

Hondas are quite common over here it just so happened that I never got a ride in one. AFAIK RAV4 is not a Honda model...
We went nowhere but Calgary.

Perhaps I should have mentioned that the CR-V we drove was a Japanese (not a US) production model, which may hay contributed to the impression of quality.

[Kitdy]

I know, but the RAV4 and CR-V are in the same class of compact SUV/CUV.

[RacingManiac]

Ah, but CR-V never gotten the muscle car treatment...the RAV-4 can be had with the 270bhp V6...which for a while makes it the fastest car Toyota makes...

[f6fhellcat13]

Zero to sixty in 6.3 ain't bad, but it is kind of pathetic that the fastest Toyota is a blorby softroader from some weird segment of the market that continues to confuse me.

[henk4]

Ah, but CR-V never gotten the muscle car treatment...the RAV-4 can be had with the 270bhp V6...which for a while makes it the fastest car Toyota makes...

that sounds very positive for Honda...

[Kitdy]

Zero to sixty in 6.3 ain't bad, but it is kind of pathetic that the fastest Toyota is a blorby softroader from some weird segment of the market that continues to confuse me.

Said segment may be the biggest in North America.

[henk4]

Said segment may be the biggest in North America.

Segment that makes sense, not too big, not too thirsty and still ample space. Not everybody wants to drive on the edge, and 110 kph is enough.

[Kitdy]

Bleh.

We are onto SUVs and CUVs for no reason other than they have a command seating view, are spacious (a Honda Fit will make you question that though) and gas is cheap. Give me your sedans, wagons, minivans, and hatches. Forget the infinitely expanding and ever new niche creating small SUV segment. On a personal level, wouldn't you rather have an Accord wagon?

I think 110 is too slow. I'd prefer a more European rate of speed when traffic is light and the weather is good. Going 110 on the 401 or 407 at 1 am on a Saturday seems kind of absurd.

Have you ever made your way to central Canada?

[NSXType-R]

Bleh.

We are onto SUVs and CUVs for no reason other than they have a command seating view, are spacious (a Honda Fit will make you question that though) and gas is cheap. Give me your sedans, wagons, minivans, and hatches. Forget the infinitely expanding and ever new niche creating small SUV segment. On a personal level, wouldn't you rather have an Accord wagon?

I think 110 is too slow. I'd prefer a more European rate of speed when traffic is light and the weather is good. Going 110 on the 401 or 407 at 1 am on a Saturday seems kind of absurd.

Have you ever made your way to central Canada?

Is 407 the highway that secretly masquerades as a toll road that all GPSes make you pass through? And then they'll send you a traffic fine through the mail afterwards?

I was there visiting family a couple years back, that's an evil road right there.

[Ferrer]

Yesterday, I got a (longish) ride in a Qashqai, and I have to say it was utterly comfortable from the passenger's perspective.

However, didn't really feel it was car you are fully in control of. I drove it once, and while it wasn't catastrophic, I wouldn't say it's the nimblest or best handling car ever.

[Kitdy]

Is 407 the highway that secretly masquerades as a toll road that all GPSes make you pass through? And then they'll send you a traffic fine through the mail afterwards?

I was there visiting family a couple years back, that's an evil road right there.

Oh yeah. The Spanish own it after our provincial government foolishly sold it to balance the budget for one year. It's great to drive on if you don't mind paying; I use it rarely in my personal life as it is awkwardly north, but all the time for work. Its wonderful, but loud as the surface is concrete.

They will hunt you down too. It says non Ontario plates will be billed, and obviously they found you. Where were you in Ontario? You soulda holla'd at me.

We do not accept toll roads in Ontario. And Canada as far as I know. The last few times I have been to Buffalo I have been shocked to see personed toll booths you have to pull over to and pay at. That is very 1955. I thought Toronto was behind in digital terms compared to Tokyo, London, etc.

[Ferrer]

Toll roads here are everyday business, and even the roads they are on (sometimes) are in a dire state.

As an example, if I want to go from Girona to Barcelona and I don't mind paying, it's 105km. However, if I do not fancy paying and I still want to use dual carriageways throughout it's 160km.

[NSXType-R]

Oh yeah. The Spanish own it after our provincial government foolishly sold it to balance the budget for one year. It's great to drive on if you don't mind paying; I use it rarely in my personal life as it is awkwardly north, but all the time for work. Its wonderful, but loud as the surface is concrete.

They will hunt you down too. It says non Ontario plates will be billed, and obviously they found you. Where were you in Ontario? You soulda holla'd at me.

We do not accept toll roads in Ontario. And Canada as far as I know. The last few times I have been to Buffalo I have been shocked to see personed toll booths you have to pull over to and pay at. That is very 1955. I thought Toronto was behind in digital terms compared to Tokyo, London, etc.

Yeah, I heard that they would hunt you down so I was paranoid because the GPS is too stupid to reroute us immediately.

Oh wow, that's a strange way to pay off a road. Yeah, I think I was there summer of 2011. It was a weekend thing where we met up with family so we were really rushed. I will keep it in mind next time I'm in your neck of the woods!

[RacingManiac]

Worst part about 407 and the whole scheme of privately owned and operated toll road, the tolls for a PRIVATE company is enforced by provincial government. Because if you have unpaid toll, they can deny your plate renewal.

If that was only it then it that's fine, but then they are also known for seedy underhanded billing practices...like withholding bill until near due then charge you for late fee...

Tip of the iceberg here...
Ontario unable to help resolve 407 ETR billing disputes (http://www.thedailyplanet.com/index.php?option=com_content&id=1735:407&Itemid=268)

[kingofthering]

Heh, after owning a "golden-era" Honda for the last few months I'm not really surprised that they stopped making them.

For one, it's nice to have torque. I don't have torque but I have a gearbox so I can manipulate that into a tolerable speed when merging into traffic. Trying to merge into traffic in 5th in most cases is like playing a game of "how big does the Dodge Ram in the mirror get?"

It's also loud. Not stripped-out race-car loud or listening to a jigsaw cutting through plate steel without hearing protection loud, but just loud enough that your passengers must shout to get their point across, and this is with the stock exhaust/muffler. As a 20-something I like the noise, but I can quickly imagine that the stockbroker with a wife and two children might not be so enthusiastic about paying the equivalent of $30,000 for this experience. They had to cut weight somewhere: I've got two airbags and no sound deadening.

But with that said, I do enjoy the driving experience. Every button and knob falls within reach of my ungodly shaped arms and the sightlines are great even though I'm 3/4 the size of every car on the road. My window seals are shot and my passengers hate the foreboding sense of death every time we go for a drive. And oh yes, the VTEC sounds amazing, though I don't think the neighbors like it! :D

The only car that comes close is the Acura ILX/Civic Si. I've long since argued that the ILX is a car in search of a question as the Civic Si is a leather package away from rendering it useless.

The problem with Acura is that Honda - the market, really - has gotten too good. In the '90s nobody thought it weird to buy a new Civic with drum brakes, no A/C, and without airbags, but today we all expect Lexus-like quality, leather-trimmed interiors covering twelve airbags, and MP3 connectivity to coddle our asses to the mall and back. With the Integra, we could at least argue that the bigger engine, standard A/C, optional leather interior, and larger dimensions made it a worthwhile step-up from the top-grade Civic.


...and now, back to your regularly scheduled program, Canadians Ranting About Toll Roads. :D

[NSXType-R]

Which generation Integra do you have? We had a 1987 Integra that was in terrible shape. In our defense, the car had been waterlogged at some point so it was mostly running on 3 cylinders. We still got an extra 90,000 or so miles out of it.

[Ferrer]

Heh, after owning a "golden-era" Honda for the last few months I'm not really surprised that they stopped making them.

For one, it's nice to have torque. I don't have torque but I have a gearbox so I can manipulate that into a tolerable speed when merging into traffic. Trying to merge into traffic in 5th in most cases is like playing a game of "how big does the Dodge Ram in the mirror get?"

It's also loud. Not stripped-out race-car loud or listening to a jigsaw cutting through plate steel without hearing protection loud, but just loud enough that your passengers must shout to get their point across, and this is with the stock exhaust/muffler. As a 20-something I like the noise, but I can quickly imagine that the stockbroker with a wife and two children might not be so enthusiastic about paying the equivalent of $30,000 for this experience. They had to cut weight somewhere: I've got two airbags and no sound deadening.

But with that said, I do enjoy the driving experience. Every button and knob falls within reach of my ungodly shaped arms and the sightlines are great even though I'm 3/4 the size of every car on the road. My window seals are shot and my passengers hate the foreboding sense of death every time we go for a drive. And oh yes, the VTEC sounds amazing, though I don't think the neighbors like it! :D

The only car that comes close is the Acura ILX/Civic Si. I've long since argued that the ILX is a car in search of a question as the Civic Si is a leather package away from rendering it useless.

The problem with Acura is that Honda - the market, really - has gotten too good. In the '90s nobody thought it weird to buy a new Civic with drum brakes, no A/C, and without airbags, but today we all expect Lexus-like quality, leather-trimmed interiors covering twelve airbags, and MP3 connectivity to coddle our asses to the mall and back. With the Integra, we could at least argue that the bigger engine, standard A/C, optional leather interior, and larger dimensions made it a worthwhile step-up from the top-grade Civic.
Today if a car doesn't have screens, turbos, is sporty and has a silly ride it is not liked...

[kingofthering]

Which generation Integra do you have? We had a 1987 Integra that was in terrible shape. In our defense, the car had been waterlogged at some point so it was mostly running on 3 cylinders. We still got an extra 90,000 or so miles out of it.

It's a third-gen sedan bought off a mechanic friend my family knows. All original (minus the consumables) right down to the OEM Koito lightbulbs in the trunk. I was a bit surprised when I swapped them out.

Front end is a mess after almost 120K miles of freeway traffic and urban driving. Still, it's nothing that a good buffing and a bit of body filler can't fix...


Today if a car doesn't have screens, turbos, is sporty and has a silly ride it is not liked...

Heh. Most of my friends prefer the mid-sized Chevy Malibu that has sound-deadening, a modern stereo, and multiple airbags owned by our other friend. I'm glad the motorsports club I hang around with appreciates it!

[Ferrer]

Well, bad news as it turns out.

Honda CEO says we shouldnt expect any new sports cars - Autoblog (http://www.autoblog.com/2013/11/19/honda-ceo-iwamura-says-no-sports-cars-for-us/)

[RacingManiac]

Just bring the damn Type R to US already...

[NSXType-R]

Well, bad news as it turns out.

Honda CEO says we shouldnt expect any new sports cars - Autoblog (http://www.autoblog.com/2013/11/19/honda-ceo-iwamura-says-no-sports-cars-for-us/)

Not surprising...


Just bring the damn Type R to US already...

See! Even you're impatient now! :D