This is a Safe Place

[Kitdy]

I've been riffing on this; y'all know what to do. There are only two rules: no flaming, and don't talk about fight club. Remember, this is a safe place.

Off we go:

Rotaries are dumb.

Alfa is over rated.

Diesel (still) isn't fun to drive.

Sedans and coupes look better than hatchbacks and wagons.

The Imprezza WRX (STi) is goofy.

I would prefer the new trifecta (P1, LaFerrari, 918) if they were all naturally aspirated non-hybrids.

End.

Edit: Nuke: the Miuras front end, and specifically its headlights, is fairly ugly.

[henk4]

which version of the Miura front lights do you have in mind?


Edit: What is the purpose of this thread? Going back to the 15-17 year old fan-boy style posts that we fortunately do not have here anymore?

[Matra et Alpine]

Rotaries are dumb in cars expected to be workhorses. Rotaries are awesome to drive hard :) At single revs Rotaries are winners. :debate:
Skoda sedan VRs diesels will smoke (pun intended) many performance cars :)
I'm with Pieter, have we regressed 10 years in the year I've been away ?

[Kitdy]

which version of the Miura front lights do you have in mind?


Edit: What is the purpose of this thread? Going back to the 15-17 year old fan-boy style posts that we fortunately do not have here anymore?

Lashes or not.


Rotaries are dumb in cars expected to be workhorses. Rotaries are awesome to drive hard :) At single revs Rotaries are winners. :debate:
Skoda sedan VRs diesels will smoke (pun intended) many performance cars :)
I'm with Pieter, have we regressed 10 years in the year I've been away ?

This was meant to be a thread where people can voice their counter-opinions which go against the Orthodox Car Enthusiast Handbook (TM), and to be a bit of fun. See: everyone must love diesel wagons, or the Miata is the best thing evar, or Pre-War cars are all irreplaceable works of art. There seems to me to be a lot of group think in mainstream car enthusiast culture and the press, and exposing controversial and unorthodox opinions can be freeing.

This ain't meant to be super serious, as car culture can sometimes seem to be.

"How can you not agree that Alfas are the best ever?!"

[henk4]

"How can you not agree that Alfas are the best ever?!"

because there was the Arna.

and yes diesel estates are the best you can buy especially in combination with a comfy suspension and two turbos.

[Matra et Alpine]

K, you just typed "evar" :(
Please tell me it was a typo

[Ferrer]

Oh come on chaps, don't be grumpy. Could be fun. Else, we'll close the thread.

I'll play.

Certain flappy paddle gearboxes in certain cars, actually do not detract from the driving experience.

There I said it.

[Kitdy]

Oh come on chaps, don't be grumpy. Could be fun. Else, we'll close the thread.

I'll play.

Certain flappy paddle gearboxes in certain cars, actually do not detract from the driving experience.

There I said it.

This man understands.

[Kitdy]

K, you just typed "evar" :(
Please tell me it was a typo

It's taking the piss.

[crisis]

I like it.

Front wheel drive is for doing the shopping

Diesels are for towing car transporters full of proper cars

You're not safer in your 4 tonne 1970 Yank Tank than in a Camry

All European cars are not "prestige" (for Australian readers)

French cars are an abomination (for Henk)

Everyone else should drive hybrids so there is enough petrol left for me and my V8s.


Its been great knowing you all. :p

[Kitdy]

Boom. Unpopular self held truths dropped.

[Cobrafan427]

Rotaries are dumb.

Alfa is over rated.

Diesel (still) isn't fun to drive.

Sedans and coupes look better than hatchbacks and wagons.

The Imprezza WRX (STi) is goofy.

I would prefer the new trifecta (P1, LaFerrari, 918) if they were all naturally aspirated non-hybrids.

End.

Edit: Nuke: the Miuras front end, and specifically its headlights, is fairly ugly.

Rotaries are epic.

We won't get Alfa here in the US for another 10 yrs it seems, so no opinion.

Tell that to Marcel Fassler and the Audi boys

Apples to oranges

Agreed

Agreed, except i'll add to it and say they all need 12 cylinder engines

The eyelashes are dumb but the car is beautiful overall

[henk4]

it looks like it is only allowed to post here after having taken considerable amounts of alcohol or some mind expanding drug...

[Ferrer]

We won't get Alfa here in the US for another 10 yrs it seems, so no opinion.
It's Alfa Romeo we are talking about.

The US return could still be 50 or 60 years and several industrial plans away...

Tell that to Marcel Fassler and the Audi boys
Speed is not necessarily the same as fun.

My new car is much faster than the old one, nowhere near as enjoyable.

[Niko_Fx]

Certain flappy paddle gearboxes in certain cars, actually do not detract from the driving experience.

There I said it.

Oh Snap!!! Who hacked into your account? :)


The Imprezza WRX (STi) is goofy.

I don't know... I've seen a few of the new ones around and regardless of what people say about them I think they look pretty awesome. I would rock one of them.

[Ferrer]

Oh Snap!!! Who hacked into your account? :)
To be honest, it only happened once... ;)

[pimento]

I like the idea of electric cars (though I'd have an electric motorbike/scooter first). I feel that Mazda should do an electric MX-5 with a little rotary range extender.

[Ferrer]

Every time I overtake a German premium car in my Alfa Romeo I smile a bit on the inside.

Does this make me a bad person?

[Kitdy]

No. Other aspects of your personality do.

Hiyo!

[Ferrer]

If you are at all serious about cars and driving, there are only three brands (excepting sportscar manufacturers and super expensive car makers) which count:


Alfa Romeo
BMW
Jaguar

The end.

[Revo]

However, driving one would mean that you are one serious:

poser
asshole
tax dodger

[Ferrer]

Damn it! I knew I was missing something.

What if you've owned all three cars brands? Surely that's a nice combo!

[Revo]

You are a tax criminal too?!?

[xander18]

Ferrer, have you always had an Alfa? Or is that a new development? As for them being overrated, I would say the company is overrated. That's what happens when a marque has a few legendary decades (1930-1940 then again 1960-1970) then gets in a slump. But no one would expect as much from another company in their position; badge-engineered feather in the cap of Fiat.

As for diesels not being fun... I've been in a four wheel slide, going uphill, in a 4WD hopped up Dodge Cummins and that's fun. My current fleet support vehicle is a 1992 2WD auto Cummins and that thing is pretty fun in a little big rig kind of a way.

My own unpopular auto opinions:

LS and SBC swaps are appropriate for GM projects and some racecars, pretty much everything else is just an easy cop-out for people who can't actually build engines.

Most auto 'enthusiasts' are just in it for the status symbol or statement to the world. They're only into it because a cool car is a universal symbol of status and their friends are into it. They'll grow out of it, drive grocery getters, and spend their middling years talking wistfully about the cool car they had back when they were young.

[Ferrer]

You are a tax criminal too?!?
Not myself (yet), but the family.

Spent the last weekend at the wheel of V8 XF.

Ferrer, have you always had an Alfa? Or is that a new development?
Bought a Giulietta almost two months ago.

Most auto 'enthusiasts' are just in it for the status symbol or statement to the world. They're only into it because a cool car is a universal symbol of status and their friends are into it. They'll grow out of it, drive grocery getters, and spend their middling years talking wistfully about the cool car they had back when they were young.
These are not car enthusiasts.

They are imbeciles in Audis.

[Rasmus]

I know this is a rather odd thing, but I'm sitting here waiting to go look at new, possible daily drivers, so here goes:

I hate fake or oddly shaped exhaust tips. What's wrong with good old-fashioned round tailpipes?


Fake: Lexus IS-F (http://www.supertightstuff.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/is-f-exhausts.jpg)
Odd: Suzuki Kizashi (http://paultan.org/media2.paultan.org/w/suzuki-kizashi-2-500px.jpg)
Strange: Focus ST (http://dfklk0jrz9g9k.cloudfront.net/images/productnews/109.original.jpg) (and one pic (http://www.pumaspeed.co.uk/saved/Pumaspeed_Ford_Focus_ST_Mk3_Milltek_Exhaust_By_Pum aspeed_1.jpg) illustrating how much better round looks)


Fake, bumper embedded tips with the actual tailpipe lurking behind it can work, but for the most part... no. Just, no.

[Kitdy]

I'm on your side Rasmus; but I'm more of a purist. I hate styled exhaust. Give me beautiful cylindrical exhausts, pushed to the edge and bottom of the rear fascia.

[pimento]

I don't mind a styled exhaust tip, just as long as it's not faking something, like the IS-F ones do. Also like on the Civic I think that have the styled hole in the bumper with silver around it, but you look in and there's the circular exhaust tip. Do it properly or not at all.

When it comes to the Focus there it's a bit more subjective. I prefer the twin-round ones, but that's less because of a preference for the rounds and more because the standard one looks a bit droopy and sad.

[Kitdy]

Yo man, this is a safe place.

I feel like adding that after driving a bunch of Mercedes' for work, I would be quite happy owning one, if I had the means. Does that make me not an enthusiast? Do I care? The E-Class is so nice to be in.

[Rasmus]

I don't believe so; the E-class especially is quite nice.

With the other cars in the garages, I don't really care much about a fast or sporty daily driver. I prioritize practicality and a comfortable ride higher than that. Within reason, of course.

Now if I could only have 1 car, it would be a bit different.

[Ferrer]

Another vote here against fake/styled tailpipes.

As for Mercs, I haven't got direct experience with the E-Class but I have driven the old C-Class. This was a very good car; comfortable and a good handler, you could even call it moderately fun.

However the newer junior Mercs are the exact opposite of that; stupidly uncomfortable, handle badly and the steering is odd. So beware of the Benz you choose...

Regarding daily drivers, the key is balance. You need comfortable suspension which smooths bumps out and doesn't break your back, but that controls body movement well too. I like to call this a car that flows, a car which feels natural. If we've got that we are on the money.

[Kitdy]

Ideally you have a multi-car garage, and a multi-residence life. A C-, E-, or S- class (if you can deal with the size), would make a great DD/bad weather driver. Then maybe a classic car, a modern sports car, and something else.

Concerning the real estate side of the dream, for a young Torontonian, that'd include a hip downtown penthouse, a nice suburban house with multi-car garage, and a cottage.

Sorry, I was asleep just now. I have re-awoken.

The CLA and B are pretty pooey. I'd like to try the GLA; it looks fairly attractive but I don't have high hopes given how much it shares with the CLA. As I recall you don't have much good to say about (your cousin's aunt's?) A-Class. What model C or C classes did you drive and were they pre- or post-facelift?

[Revo]

Back to old-fashioned tailpipes.

There is a modern car worth buying just for the exhaust pipes - Abarth 595 Competizione.

Isn't that a thing of beauty? A worthy homage to Carlo Abarth.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/ml69nx1mj9egyt7/090909_AB_MarmittaRecordMonza.jpg?dl=0

[Ferrer]

The Monza Special exhaust is quite special indeed - does anyone have direct experience with it? The standard Abarth exhaust is quite hopeless at sounding good; maybe the Monza Special spices things up a bit?

The CLA and B are pretty pooey. I'd like to try the GLA; it looks fairly attractive but I don't have high hopes given how much it shares with the CLA. As I recall you don't have much good to say about (your cousin's aunt's?) A-Class. What model C or C classes did you drive and were they pre- or post-facelift?
I have driven all junior Mercs except for the GLA and they've all been equally hopeless, especially when it comes to handling. It's like the body wants to set off in a direction and the wheels in an other one and the suspension can't get them to agree.

Also, in anything but the softest suspension option the ride is just preposterous. How the hell could they get it so wrong?

I drove back in the day a late W204 with the 2.2 litre diesel engine and the seven speed automatic gearbox. I would've bought it, if I was in the market for such a car. In many ways it reminded me of the original 1 Series, only softer, more comfortable and more noble - and that's the best car I've ever driven.

[Rasmus]

Regarding daily drivers, the key is balance. You need comfortable suspension which smooths bumps out and doesn't break your back, but that controls body movement well too. I like to call this a car that flows, a car which feels natural. If we've got that we are on the money.


Ideally you have a multi-car garage, and a multi-residence life. A C-, E-, or S- class (if you can deal with the size), would make a great DD/bad weather driver. Then maybe a classic car, a modern sports car, and something else.

I agree wholeheartedly -- and that's the reason why we just got a 2005 Audi wagon today. Cheap, comfortable, and with enough interior space to do an IKEA run or two.

For the longest time I was opposed to the understeering wonders of Stuttgart, but I came to the conclusion that we have enough fun cars to go easy on the daily driver. Plus, having driven that oversized, 4500lbs American tank of an SUV for the better part of 3 years, anything is going to seem nimble.


Back to old-fashioned tailpipes.

There is a modern car worth buying just for the exhaust pipes - Abarth 595 Competizione.

Isn't that a thing of beauty? A worthy homage to Carlo Abarth.


Yes! Thank you! There is hope yet for modern car design.

[Kitdy]

That exhaust is a thing of beauty. To YouTube!

[Kitdy]

I agree wholeheartedly -- and that's the reason why we just got a 2005 Audi wagon today. Cheap, comfortable, and with enough interior space to do an IKEA run or two.

Congrats! An Allroad?

In the end, how much of adult life revolves around IKEA?

[Rasmus]

Congrats! An Allroad?

In the end, how much of adult life revolves around IKEA?

A4 1.8T quattro -- the beast of boost.

Evidently a lot. We've been on several trips, and we still have 6-8 rooms to furnish.

[Kitdy]

I wasn't sure they sold the wagons in North America. Quiggs would be so proud...

I think y'all know my general stance on VW Group and VW in specific, but I can more easily get behind a utilitarian older Audi wagon. My neighbour has a diesel Golf wagon and that is just so sensible.

It shall serve you well.

Obligatory: lower it.

[Rasmus]

You can take the European out of the wagon, but you can't take the wagon out of the European.

I'm looking forward to seeing how it will do this winter. While the snow doesn't stay for long, we do get some good ice storms, and the locals, well, they freak out.

This is what happened last year during the 6 hour gridlock:
http://media2.newsobserver.com/smedia/2014/02/13/17/58/KTul9.AuSt.156.jpeg

[Ferrer]

Comfortableness is good.

But why an Audi? Surely, a Subaru understeers just as badly and is far less ghastly.

[Rasmus]

Asian cars don't do anything for me. I'm too German, without actually being it.

I cringe every time I see the button-gasm that is a Lexus interior. I got bored quick with a GTR. It's a very irrational, personal thing, I understand that, but I just don't do well with any of them. I couldn't see myself buying any past or current Asian offering. They may do everything very well, but I just don't want to pay for them.

[Kitdy]

I think your choice is legit, but it must be said fourth gen Legacy wagons are cool. Have you driven one?

[Ferrer]

Asian cars don't do anything for me. I'm too German, without actually being it.

I cringe every time I see the button-gasm that is a Lexus interior. I got bored quick with a GTR. It's a very irrational, personal thing, I understand that, but I just don't do well with any of them. I couldn't see myself buying any past or current Asian offering. They may do everything very well, but I just don't want to pay for them.
I understand that.

In my experience with Japanese cars I'd say that for some reason they seem stuck in the 90's. The electroluminescent displays, five speed gearboxes and normally aspirated engines are a bit last century, you know.

They are good pieces of machinery, but it is hard to not get carried away by something else.

[Rasmus]

I think your choice is legit, but it must be said fourth gen Legacy wagons are cool. Have you driven one?

I think we looked at a 2011 Legacy, does that count for something? Again, not disappointed, but not impressed. I don't think I'd want to look at one on a daily basis.


I understand that.

In my experience with Japanese cars I'd say that for some reason they seem stuck in the 90's. The electroluminescent displays, five speed gearboxes and normally aspirated engines are a bit last century, you know.

They are good pieces of machinery, but it is hard to not get carried away by something else.

On paper, Asian cars sound a whole lot better than they do whenever I drive them.

In general, the engines are great, and for the most part, so are the chassis. It's just the rest of the car that ruins it a bit for me.

[Kitdy]

I think we looked at a 2011 Legacy, does that count for something? Again, not disappointed, but not impressed. I don't think I'd want to look at one on a daily basis.

Fair enough. That's a fifth gen; the previous one is a lot more handsome. I would not want to look at that every day either. I don't want to look at our Mazda every day, but I have to. Man, it is absolutely hideous. 0.5/10.

I understand where you are coming from though.

[Ferrer]

On paper, Asian cars sound a whole lot better than they do whenever I drive them.
Try to get hold of one of the new Mazdas 3 Skydrivegreenmotive.

Brilliant to drive and I think the interior has progressed to 2006!

[Rasmus]

Fair enough. That's a fifth gen; the previous one is a lot more handsome. I would not want to look at that every day either. I don't want to look at our Mazda every day, but I have to. Man, it is absolutely hideous. 0.5/10.

I understand where you are coming from though.

Mazdas definitely rank higher on my list than most other Asian cars. They have that little bit of crazy going for them.

Even though it was dirt cheap, terribly practical, and surprisingly reliable, I still had to look at this for the better part of 3 years:
https://invimg1.autofunds.com/InventoryImages/2013/05/18/716_330603_ARV1_10047776_5445218442013.jpg

[Ferrer]

Is that an Oldsmobile or something?

[Rasmus]

Mercury Mountaineer. Ford thought they could upmarket the old Ford Explorer under the Mercury brand. Mine was with the 210hp 4.0 V6 with 210hp to a permanent AWD through, of course, a slushbox. It averaged around 6 km/l. It had peeling paint and a couple of door dings from impatient soccer moms in supermarket parking lots.

I'm not sure what they were thinking, or that they got rid of those designers. It's about as ugly as the new Focus interior.

[Ferrer]

It's terrible indeed.

At least Mercury is no more and such experiments have ceased.

[Rasmus]

Seeing a Pontiac Aztek on the road while driving the Mountaineer always made me feel better. And prettier.

[Kitdy]

Sometimes I forget about Mercury. And Olds. Mercury died in Canada in 1999; we were ahead of the times for once!

[Ferrer]

By the way, since we were speaking of Ferraris on the Testarossa's thread, and to not get Revo any more angry (by bombing the thread):

I think the Ferrari 250 GTO is massively overrated.

[Kitdy]

I tend to side with you on that.

It's pretty awesome. Should it be one of if not the most expensive cars? No.

[Rasmus]

I tend to prefer the 250TR over the GTO. Of course, I've only been somewhat close to a couple, and haven't driven any of them.

When I hear about these cars sold at auction, I get this feeling that a bunch of obscenely rich folks are sitting around playing with Monopoly money, not really knowing what to do with it. Case in point; Ron Pratte.

I am, however, extremely thankful to those who then take them out on the streets and tracks.

[Ferrer]

I don't mind the prices; it's supply and demand.

For me the problem is that they are not that beautiful (especially the '64 Series II) and while they were successful race cars, there have been other similarly successful race cars that do not get the acknowledgement.

If I had to have Ferrari I'd rather get a 250 TdF, a 250 California or a 250 California.

[f6fhellcat13]

I like the 250 GTO a lot, but I definitely prefer the GTL.

One of the things that has always struck me about Ferraris from that period is that the designers forgot to pen the rear end. The cars just sort of end; a comparison to Bangle butt would be unfair, but there it is. Maybe Clarkson was onto something with the Francis Bacon quote when he reviewed the 8C Competizione.

Despite the rear, the GTL is my favoritest road-going Ferrari.

[Kitdy]

I tend to prefer the 250TR over the GTO.

The original TRs never did it for me. I for one, hate the pontoons.


I don't mind the prices; it's supply and demand.

The prices don't bother me either. I just don't think that this specific car should be the exemplar and paragon of the high end car market, as well as ultimate of any car at auction. Others? Sure. I think some P cars should be attaining those prices. Look at Mr. Glick's example. That car is absolutely insane; a car that could launch a thousand ships, and the Ps are much rarer than GTOs.

Bugattis are slightly over-fetishized in my view, but there are some spectacular variants.


If I had to have Ferrari I'd rather get a 250 TdF, a 250 California or a 250 California.

We are of similar minds here. I think maybe the prettiest car ever made, and one of my absolute favourites is the 250 GT SWB. Also, how could you say no to the Ferris Bueller Ferrari?


I like the 250 GTO a lot, but I definitely prefer the GTL.

The Lusso is another excellent example of the quality of this vintage of Ferraris ('55-'65). The series of cars made by the company in these years may be my favourite run of any manufacturer.

I think you guys would know I am fairly reluctant to call myself a Ferrari fan, but they may well be my favourite car company. I feel like such a gauche and mainstream car enthusiast if that indeed is the case; hellcat/Ferrer be not proud of my obvious and non-hipster choice. Even I feel shame.

[henk4]

I think the Ferrari 250 GTO is massively overrated.

Are you talking here in monetary terms, or did you actually drive one and compared it to other Ferraris from the same period?

Personally I like the looks of the 250 SWB better, but in terms of speed and handling they come nowhere close to the GTO.

A proper 330 P4 would probably outprice a 250 GTO in the current market, but there are only two that can be considered original, the one owned by the Bardinon family and Lawrence Stroll's car. The third car now owned by Franco Meiners has too much of a history around her to achieve its full value potential.

[Ferrer]

I meant in terms of hype. The 250 GTO is so overhyped that its actual merits seem to be irrelevant. For many people the 250 GTO is the Ferrari. That makes me not want to like it (Maybe Kitdy is on to something with hispter choices and all).

Anyway, despite not being a Ferrari person, it's hard to say no to the classic V12s. They embody what cars are all about: Magnificent engines, classic proportions, high performance, stylish and charismatic. I'd say that even the modern F12 Berlinetta carries some of that heritage.

PS. How could I forget the Lusso? That's in too.

[f6fhellcat13]

Any car from the 250-Series is somewhat obvious, I'd say. There is a very good reason why they're so loved.
As far as favorite Ferrari full-stop, the P-cars, with their endless swoopiness rank highest. I had the pleasure of seeing Mr. Glickenhaus' at the Lime Rock Concours, and it redoubled my conviction that it is one of the prettiest cars of all time.

[Kitdy]

A proper 330 P4 would probably outprice a 250 GTO in the current market, but there are only two that can be considered original, the one owned by the Bardinon family and Lawrence Stroll's car. The third car now owned by Franco Meiners has too much of a history around her to achieve its full value potential.

I suppose there is that; how often do the Ps go on sale? The market for these very high end cars is much more discrete than continuous for say a large (or larger) run of cars. The two you mention, and other Ps are very rarely sold, and could be sold in private sale to obscure the transaction price.

The question remains, why the GTO? I've read one or two articles over the past few weeks that also raise this question. I suppose it was a road legal homologation special Colombo V12 FR Ferrari with a racing pedigree, so that's good. Maybe I've partly answered my own question. The car is still not exactly an icon to me. It sorta is, but I think mostly because of what the price has made it become, and how exclusive the owner's club is.

[pimento]

The thing about the GTO is that it has the right mix of heritage and rarity. It's the the culmination of the 250 series, the 'last of an era' (front-engined racers winning LeMans) and there's enough of them that they come up for auction regularly, so we all know about it. Ironically, the fact that it's a lot less rare than the Ps means that there's more demand for them, as more people know a lot more about them. That someone like Mr. Glickenhaus is responsible for folk like us seeing and knowing more about the P makes a lot of sense, as he's about as hard core as we are into this stuff. He gets it. I'm sure when a P comes up there's a lot of folk saying 'Wow, that's interesting, never heard of that before' but when it's a GTO, we're all experts.

Basically, when you have a GTO you can have a rare and special Ferrari like everyone else's. When you have a P3/4, you're just about it.

[Ferrer]

Moving on.

Today I was driving the Alfa to Girona. I didn't fancy fast driving and I wanted to see how many miles to the gallon I could get out of it (computer reckons I'm doing 59mpg and that includes a fair bit of city driving, but we'll se when the tank is empty).

I set the cruise control to 100km/h and off I wanted. There was hardly any traffic, the road were quite and I was driving a diesel front wheel drive car with an automatic.

And then a thought crossed my mind. I was limiting myself to follow the lanes on the road and I couldn't help thinking that automated driving would very possibly improve the trip.

Now, I wouldn't give up driving; I enjoy it too much, especially on the right car and roads. But could self-driving cars maybe, just maybe, be a good thing?

[Kitdy]

In certain situations? Sure, maybe. It could make having a more earthen and basic fun car for the weekend more enjoyable.

Determining the course of the future and technological developments is tremendously difficult, as is predicting how you'd react to hypothetical situations. I think we are only going to know how "we" (as either drivers, commuters, enthusiasts, whatever) feel about automated cars whenever they actually become widely used; and when that will actually happen is very hard to predict.

[Ferrer]

What if you can't afford two cars?

This is something that haunts me. Then you need to compromise, and compromises mean that you are going to have something that may be good but something that you don't enjoy or at least not as much as you could do in something else.

In a way the same stand for the hybrid A3 I drove some weeks ago. I did really like it, but in the end you would know that it is not what you really want. In Europe though, it's difficult. Diesel's economic advantage is so great that trying to justify getting something else is hard unless you have deep pockets.

It's even worse if you live in a city and you either commute or have to drive long motorway stretches to the weekend's house. I don't know, I'm slightly confused and annoyed.

[NSXType-R]

I had an idea once where there was a central system where you could enter in your destination. The central computer would figure out the destinations of other users from other areas and will try to optimize freeway usage by linking your car up with other cars going the same general direction. You'd drive up to the freeway (probably by yourself) and then you'd merge with the predetermined bunch of cars going in that same general direction. The computer controlled system would drive at a constant rate of speed and cars would detach when their destination approaches and you'd be free to do whatever you want. Ideally, the system would probably be able to move very quickly if it was efficient, probably more than the speed limit but you'd have to trust the system. :D

I think it would work pretty well with one lane predetermined for this computer system, while other older cars would be able to still use the freeways as they still used to.

I think this system is very far away, as I'm not sure if I'd trust myself to such a complex system.

[crisis]

Now, I wouldn't give up driving; I enjoy it too much, especially on the right car and roads. But could self-driving cars maybe, just maybe, be a good thing?

Well its basically personalized “public transport”. So if you are commuting back and forth to work in tedious traffic I guess it would be a fair call. Likewise if you are driving a boring car. When I take my wife’s Mitsubishi Mirage to work I would be just as happy to let it drive me there. On the other hand when I take my Monaro I enjoy driving. Even cruise control gets in the way of the driving experience. As you said “right car on the right roads”.

[Kitdy]

What if you can't afford two cars?

Yes. I do not know. The small light, more manually intensive enthusiast cars might cost a lot as so few are made/wanted, but the lack of technology could drag down prices a bit?

Maybe all cars will have some form of autonomous capability?

The more I think about this, the more I refocus on my main problem with driving being boring roads in my locale, and yet, I still love driving, even on a highway. Even down straight residential streets, in an entry level auto Mazda. There's just something about it. When I get into the work force I want to seriously look into autocross, cheap rally, tracking, karting, etc.

[Ferrer]

I had an idea once where there was a central system where you could enter in your destination. The central computer would figure out the destinations of other users from other areas and will try to optimize freeway usage by linking your car up with other cars going the same general direction. You'd drive up to the freeway (probably by yourself) and then you'd merge with the predetermined bunch of cars going in that same general direction. The computer controlled system would drive at a constant rate of speed and cars would detach when their destination approaches and you'd be free to do whatever you want. Ideally, the system would probably be able to move very quickly if it was efficient, probably more than the speed limit but you'd have to trust the system. :D

I think it would work pretty well with one lane predetermined for this computer system, while other older cars would be able to still use the freeways as they still used to.

I think this system is very far away, as I'm not sure if I'd trust myself to such a complex system.
There is some that say that fully automated driving is still decades ago, but automated driving just in motorways/freeways/highways would be easier due to the nature of those roads. So for the most part the car would drive itself but you'd still have to drive on the more complex (best?) parts of the journey.

Well its basically personalized “public transport”. So if you are commuting back and forth to work in tedious traffic I guess it would be a fair call. Likewise if you are driving a boring car. When I take my wife’s Mitsubishi Mirage to work I would be just as happy to let it drive me there. On the other hand when I take my Monaro I enjoy driving. Even cruise control gets in the way of the driving experience. As you said “right car on the right roads”.
Indeed it is. I do not like public transport; I do not like sharing my space with people I do not know (and eve sometimes with people I know, but that's another story...). I also do not like the constraints public transport has, such as predetermined routes and time schedules.

You've got a point in having two drivers at home and therefore two cars. This eases off a little bit the economic pressure of having two cars. This way you can have both the sensible car and the sporty emotional one. I'm considering this option myself.

However there's a problem, because the really great roads are around my weekend's place and to get there I have to drive long stretches of motorway (there's mountain road option, but it is not feasible to take it "always") so the ideal situation would be to drive there with the sensible car and once there you move around in the sportscar. However this clashes with the idea of having to drivers at home with two car (in the city).

Yes. I do not know. The small light, more manually intensive enthusiast cars might cost a lot as so few are made/wanted, but the lack of technology could drag down prices a bit?

Maybe all cars will have some form of autonomous capability?

The more I think about this, the more I refocus on my main problem with driving being boring roads in my locale, and yet, I still love driving, even on a highway. Even down straight residential streets, in an entry level auto Mazda. There's just something about it. When I get into the work force I want to seriously look into autocross, cheap rally, tracking, karting, etc.
Of course those systems, were they to be implemented should be completely able to be turned off. Despite being slightly boring I still enjoy commanding my car in those circumstances. And even then I'm not sure I would use it very often.

In my opinion even the worst car in the most boring road in the world is better than no car, no road and no driving whatsoever.

[crisis]

Indeed it is. I do not like public transport; I do not like sharing my space with people I do not know (and eve sometimes with people I know, but that's another story...). I also do not like the constraints public transport has, such as predetermined routes and time schedules.
I work in public transport and I can give you plenty of reasons I would not use it. ;-)

[jcp123]

Damn. I still like diesels. I can delete a DPF, not sure about SCRs. And I still loathe sedans, Tudors still look good though, I do rank convertibles as my no. 1 fav body style, followed by wagons, Tudors, hatchbacks, and finally sedans. Bleagh, sedans.

Alfas are overrated, they have their charms though.

No super car should ever be a hybrid.

STis are maybe not silly. Dynamically good but in that mid-priced range, there are a LOT of cars. For the money, I can think of a handful of cars I'd rather have.

Rotaries? Eh, I'm no fan but like Alfas, they have their charms.

[jcp123]

I meant in terms of hype. The 250 GTO is so overhyped that its actual merits seem to be irrelevant. For many people the 250 GTO is the Ferrari. That makes me not want to like it (Maybe Kitdy is on to something with hispter choices and all).

Anyway, despite not being a Ferrari person, it's hard to say no to the classic V12s. They embody what cars are all about: Magnificent engines, classic proportions, high performance, stylish and charismatic. I'd say that even the modern F12 Berlinetta carries some of that heritage.

PS. How could I forget the Lusso? That's in too.

I never cared for 250 GTOs to begin with. Lussos are similarly eh. My heart lies with 250GTEs and even better, 330 America 2+2s. Although to put this into perspective, any Colombo V12 Ferrari is phenomenal.

[Ferrer]

I was watching yesterday the Sebring 12h and although the racing was good (especially in the GT classes) it would've been so much better if the Americans used the proper racing classes instead of the ones that favour their cars.

Also the DPs are ugly and have the wrong proportions.

[Kitdy]

Shouldn't there only be two classes, P and GT?

I caught a bit too. The DPs are less weird than they used to be, but if it's not a Corvette, it is ugly.

[Ferrer]

As far as I was able grasp there was:

P Class: DPs and LMP2s
PC Class: Spec Series, Oreca chassis and SBCs
GTLM: "GT3-plus" cars, were all the factories (and proper racing) were
GTD: GT3 cars for wealthy amateurs and up-and-coming novices

In my opinion at least Daytona and Sebring should be open to FIA/ACO regulations.

And DPs are undoubtedly better than they used to be, but compared to LMP2s they are quite awful, and nevermind LMP1s and the factory efforts. Also it makes those otherwise perfectly fine events look a bit, you know, second rate...

I would even favour racing those LMP1s and works teams without scoring/blocking points for the US championship. Even outside the WEC, they would very probably attract entries from them as the US market is too important to be ignored.

[Rasmus]

I was watching yesterday the Sebring 12h and although the racing was good (especially in the GT classes) it would've been so much better if the Americans used the proper racing classes instead of the ones that favour their cars.

Also the DPs are ugly and have the wrong proportions.

I agree on both points. I don't get it either.

[Ferrer]

Apparently Cadillac is attempting their latest crack at the European market these days. In Spain they have recently unveiled the range they'll be selling here, through 7 dealers across the territory:

ATS 2.0T Saloon Automatic (both rear and four wheel drive)
ATS 2.0T Coupé Automatic (both rear and four wheel drive)
CTS 2.0T Saloon Automatic (both rear and four wheel drive)
SRX 3.6 V6 4WD Automatic
Escalade 6.2 4WD Automatic

Needless to say, they will sell none at all and will soon be retired from the market and we will then wait for Cadillac next ill-timed and ill-fated attempt at the European market.

But this is not the problem. The problem are the cars. Now, I'm sure that the new ATS and CTS are superb, but am I the only who doesn't see the point of small, taut, agile, four cylinder engined Cadillacs?

I guess that their thought is that if they copy the Germans then they will be able to fight them on their home turf. But they won't. Those who want a German premium car will not be bothered by a Cadillac and those who want a Cadillac do not want a tiny four cylinder car.

Bring back the land barges and pushrod V8s, apply modern technology, and call it a day!

[pimento]

Bring back the land barges and pushrod V8s, apply modern technology, and call it a day!

A land barge with decent suspension and cylinder deactivation?

..

Commodore.jpg.

I do agree though that Caddy ought to at least pretend to have the V6s and -V models over there, if only to drive attention to themselves in the press. 'ATS-V - M3 Killer?' headlines will at least let people know that the cars exists, even though the concluding lines will inevitably be 'solid effort, not quite up there with the Germans yet but they're getting closer'.

[Ferrer]

I actually do not fancy the ATS-V very much, to be honest. I do not want another M4 look-alike, feel-alike fighter. I found the first and second gen CTS-V, in their luxury muscle car sort of mould, far more interesting.

Anyway.

Look a new Jaguar!

http://o.aolcdn.com/dims-shared/dims3/GLOB/crop/1510x1005+605+387/resize/590x393!/format/jpg/quality/85/http://o.aolcdn.com/hss/storage/midas/8bbf16e1d760713446b4d535677e3834/201732914/2016-jag-xf-11-1.jpg

Oh god.

[Ferrer]

I've just seen 15 or so laps of the Formula E Long Beach race. It is the worst form of motorsport I've ever seen:


The cars are very slow
You get a drive through if you use too much power
Lack of noise is weird
They have to change cars half way through the race because they run out of juice
The grid seems to be full of failed F1 drivers

[Ferrer]

I've been lately driving the Mercedes-Benz far too much and only recently got back in the Alfa Romeo.

German cars only work above 150km/h. And all other cars only work up to 150km/h.

Discuss.

[f6fhellcat13]

Canadian cars only work below 12 km/h. Zing.

I think there are a fair amount of long-legged American cars as well, though above 100 or so, things can get a little hairy, even without corners.

[Kitdy]

I've been lately driving the Mercedes-Benz far too much and only recently got back in the Alfa Romeo.

German cars only work above 150km/h. And all other cars only work up to 150km/h.

Discuss.

If I drive that fast, my car will be seized and I will be fined $10,000. So above 150 km/h is a mystery to me.

The Benzos at work were buttoned up at high speed. Our Mazda needs another cog and about 40 more horsepower, among other things. So framing this from a European 1.4L perspective, I can see where you are coming from. I'd suspect the German cars more liable to have larger engines and be less thrashy and loud at the speed the government of Ontario equates driving at to domestic terrorism.


Canadian cars only work below 12 km/h. Zing.

I think there are a fair amount of long-legged American cars as well, though above 100 or so, things can get a little hairy, even without corners.

Are you speaking to the crap quality of cars built in Canada you've driven, or how slow everyone drives?

[Ferrer]

It's not about the engine necessarily, once you are up to speed even the communist European versions can stay there easily.

It's about the poise, the connection and the confidence with which German car do those speeds.

The Merc feels cumbersome and sloppy at low speeds in the corners. At high speeds, though it feels planted and precise. The Alfa Romeo is the exact opposite.

By the way, 170km/h in a motorway here is just 300€ and 2 points off your license. Europe wins!

[henk4]

I've been lately driving the Mercedes-Benz far too much and only recently got back in the Alfa Romeo.

German cars only work above 150km/h. And all other cars only work up to 150km/h.

Discuss.
a neat way of saying that German cars are no longer useful in our modern world...

[Kitdy]

It's not about the engine necessarily, once you are up to speed even the communist European versions can stay there easily.


Oh, for sure. I also was making oblique reference to road noise, wind noise, smoothness, blah blah the crap apparently only three luxury car companies from Germany can do.

[Ferrer]

Well, aren't Lexuses supposed to be at the top of the game when it comes to insulating you from the road?

I don't think they are the best at +120mph speeds though...

[Ferrer]

BMW has finally lost the plot when it comes to naming schemes.

[pimento]

I don't know, they've arguably simplified it by ensuring that the numbers have no meaning anymore. Except that what the rest of the world calls a 330i, the US will call a 328i. For no reason.

[Ferrer]

Well, it gets worse than that actually. In the US the 320d is the 328d, but here we have a "lower" model (325d) with more power.

[NSXType-R]

BMW has finally lost the plot when it comes to naming schemes.

Car manufacturers haven't named cars within reason for years now. It's not anything new and honestly, it's only useful for us car folks.

[Ferrer]

The BMW 3 Series is not the benchmark for sports saloons anymore. The new benchmark is the Jaguar XE.

[pimento]

The BMW 3 Series is not the benchmark for sports saloons anymore. The new benchmark is the Jaguar XE.

Unless you want a petrol engine and a manual gearbox.

[Ferrer]

Touché.

But at least you do not get understeer like you do in the Bimmer.

[Ferrer]

Pump up the volume all the way to eleven.

Press play.

Alfa Romeo Giulia | Autoblog Uruguay - YouTube

Then tell me this is not the last great petrolhead era before electricality takes over everything.

[pimento]

It's nice, but..

Alfa Romeo 75 3.0 V6 onboard! Fantastic sound!! - YouTube

[Ferrer]

See, I was right.

2015 BMW 335i M Sport vs. 2016 Jaguar XE S! - Head 2 Head Ep. 67 - YouTube

[Revo]

XE must be really good - even the German reviewers are admitting that XE has much better driving dynamics than 3-series or C-class.

Now bring on Giulia!