The Difference Between......

[TheEnzo]

Hey

I wanted to ask u people technically.
Which engine configration is the best if the were same displacement, and the same number of piston................
by stock (without modifications)

PARTICULARLY
--------------------V-6 3.0 liter
INCLINE,----------- I-6 3.0 liter
BOXER (FLAT) ----- F-6 3.0 liter

THESE ARE SAME NO OF CYLINERS AND DISPLACMENT

BUT STILL WHICH WOULD BE MORE EFFICENT AND WILL PRODOUCE MORE POWER ????

[Nash]

I'm guessing the Inline-6.

[TheEnzo]

DONT GUESS
I THINK IT WOULD BE PROBEBLY (DONT MIND THE SPELLING)
FLAT-6
I LIKE ITS DESIGN

[Nash]

Don't think.

[TheEnzo]

Originally posted by Nash
Don't think.

IT IS
HAVE U SEEN THE CAR CALLED 911
IT USES A FLAT SIX (ONLY SIX CYLINDER ENGINE)
AND IT PRODUCES MORE POWER THAN ANY OTHER SIX CYLINDER ENGINE............( U TALK NOSENSE )

[Nash]

Originally posted by TheEnzo
IT IS
HAVE U SEEN THE CAR CALLED 911
IT USES A FLAT SIX (ONLY SIX CYLINDER ENGINE)
AND IT PRODUCES MORE POWER THAN ANY OTHER SIX CYLINDER ENGINE............( U TALK NOSENSE )

The 2JZ(Supra) and the RB26DETT(Skyline) Inline-6 engines can produce somewhere in the area of 1500hp.

[TheEnzo]

Originally posted by Nash
The 2JZ(Supra) and the RB26DETT(Skyline) Inline-6 engines can produce somewhere in the area of 1500hp.

I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT MODIFIED ENGINES
I AM TALKING ABOUT STOCK

STOCK :
SKYLINE --- PRODUCES 270HP
SUPRA --- PRODUCES 320HP

[Nash]

Originally posted by TheEnzo


I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT MODIFIED ENGINES
I AM TALKING ABOUT STOCK

STOCK :
SKYLINE --- PRODUCES 270HP
SUPRA --- PRODUCES 320HP



You never mentioned the word 'stock'

[TheEnzo]

Originally posted by Nash
You never mentioned the word 'stock'

may be u did`nt read well
buy some glasses and hire a english teacher

[Nash]

Originally posted by TheEnzo
may be u did`nt read well
buy some glasses and hire a english teacher


Time I posted: 06-30-2003 07:09 AM

Your post: Last edited by TheEnzo on 06-30-2003 at 07:11 AM

[Nash]

Originally posted by TheEnzo
U ARE SAD :p

How do you know so much about cars?

[TheEnzo]

Originally posted by Nash
How do you know so much about cars?

ITS A LONG STORY............................................. .................................................. .................
BUT SIMPLY (I AM 15 AND I LOVE CARZ)

[piledriver]

Inline 6 sux
V6 are good engines...
but the flat 6 rulez...
the sound of a boxer 6 of the Porsche, is music to my ears, and its reliability is great!!

[TheEnzo]

Originally posted by piledriver
Inline 6 sux
V6 are good engines...
but the flat 6 rulez...
the sound of a boxer 6 of the Porsche, is music to my ears, and its reliability is great!!

i think too
but i wanted a nice a technical answer

[piledriver]

Originally posted by TheEnzo
i think too
but i wanted a nice a technical answer

So, I´m not the most correct person to answer this question...
:D

[TheEnzo]

Originally posted by piledriver
So, I´m not the most correct person to answer this question...
:D

hey i really really needed a technical answer OK........

WHY DONT PORSHE (dont mind the spelling) CREATE A NEW CARERA GT2 WITH flat-12 ENGINE IT WILL SURELY BEAT ALL THE
V-12 ENGINES

THE SHOULD REPLACE THE OLD V-10 MAKE THE CAR A REAL PORSHE

[motorhead]

Originally posted by TheEnzo
hey i really really needed a technical answer OK........

WHY DONT PORSHE (dont mind the spelling) CREATE A NEW CARERA GT2 WITH flat-12 ENGINE IT WILL SURELY BEAT ALL THE
V-12 ENGINES

THE SHOULD REPLACE THE OLD V-10 MAKE THE CAR A REAL PORSHE flat 12 - have you gone beserk - have you gone literally MAD - are you insane - well i think you are - number 1 - porsche has just created the carrera GT which has a massive v10 engine and a whole load od torque and horsepower - just to gve you a clue how busted ****ed up good that car is - porsche's test driver(forgot hs name)said he actually felt scared driving it - man when was the last time a test driver felt scared - number 2 - porsche is INDEPENDENT - and they are not gonna make a car that would suck money like a dipsomaniac would to his drinks - and how do you know it is gonna be a blast in the sales - i don't think so - its better if they go into formula 1 or back to LE Mans

[TheEnzo]

Originally posted by motorhead
flat 12 - have you gone beserk - have you gone literally MAD - are you insane - well i think you are - number 1 - porsche has just created the carrera GT which has a massive v10 engine and a whole load od torque and horsepower - just to gve you a clue how busted ****ed up good that car is - porsche's test driver(forgot hs name)said he actually felt scared driving it - man when was the last time a test driver felt scared - number 2 - porsche is INDEPENDENT - and they are not gonna make a car that would suck money like a dipsomaniac would to his drinks - and how do you know it is gonna be a blast in the sales - i don't think so - its better if they go into formula 1 or back to LE Mans

OK OK
But a flat-6 engine makes more power than both I-6 and V-6 right... and they can make a Flat-12 why not... it would produce far more power then a V-12... whats stoping them its not like its gona be too long or huge... if cadaliac can make a V-16... then why not porshe... ok forget porshe why not ferrari put a Flat-12 engine in their carz... I dont understand whats stoping them....

[motorhead]

Originally posted by TheEnzo
OK OK
But a flat-6 engine makes more power than both I-6 and V-6 right... and they can make a Flat-12 why not... it would produce far more power then a V-12... whats stoping them its not like its gona be too long or huge... if cadaliac can make a V-16... then why not porshe... ok forget porshe why not ferrari put a Flat-12 engine in their carz... I dont understand whats stoping them.... cadillac has GMs help and the v16 is only a concept but they use to use it long time ago but that engine was crap compared to the v16 now - porsche is INDEPENDENT - but they do have VWs help sometimes - because the Ferdinand Piech(former VW chairman) and Ferdinand Porsche was Piech's grandfather and now porsches current chairman has some relation but they are still INDEPENDENT and they are not gonna waste money like that

[TheEnzo]

Originally posted by motorhead
cadillac has GMs help and the v16 is only a concept but they use to use it long time ago but that engine was crap compared to the v16 now - porsche is INDEPENDENT - but they do have VWs help sometimes - because the Ferdinand Piech(former VW chairman) and Ferdinand Porsche was Piech's grandfather and now porsches current chairman has some relation but they are still INDEPENDENT and they are not gonna waste money like that


hmmmmmmmmm.....
i still did not get my answer....
ok forget porshe why not ferrari put a Flat-12 engine in their carz... I dont understand whats stoping them....

[motorhead]

Originally posted by TheEnzo
hmmmmmmmmm.....
i still did not get my answer....
ok forget porshe why not ferrari put a Flat-12 engine in their carz... I dont understand whats stoping them.... the size of the engine - it is very wide and it has a very low centre of gravity - which is good but the engine would be very wide and ferrari has just made the enzo and they have put their money into into wind tunnel testing - No company wants to waste their money by making something for nothing

[TheEnzo]

Originally posted by motorhead
the size of the engine - it is very wide and it has a very low centre of gravity - which is good but the engine would be very wide and ferrari has just made the enzo and they have put their money into into wind tunnel testing - No company wants to waste their money by making something for nothing

hmmmmm!
ok

[crisis]

The original question needs to include such caveats as "given equal money for developement" and "similar technology" ie vvt. A Porsche 6 beats a Nissan or Toyota. No shit. Even given similar dollars the boxer argument doesnt hold up too well. It gives you a low centre of gravity for chassis set up though. Get this.

BMW M3 3.2 NA straight 6 255kw @ 7900
Porsche 996 3.1 NA boxer 6 235kw @ 6200
Honda NSX 3.1 NA V6 208kw @ 7300
Porsche Boxter s 3.1 NA boxer 6 194kw @ 6200

The M3 is the most powerful NA 6 I can think of. Boxer motors do not rev as high as the other configurations.

[TheEnzo]

Originally posted by crisis
The original question needs to include such caveats as "given equal money for developement" and "similar technology" ie vvt. A Porsche 6 beats a Nissan or Toyota. No shit. Even given similar dollars the boxer argument doesnt hold up too well. It gives you a low centre of gravity for chassis set up though. Get this.

BMW M3 3.2 NA straight 6 255kw @ 7900
Porsche 996 3.1 NA boxer 6 235kw @ 6200
Honda NSX 3.1 NA V6 208kw @ 7300
Porsche Boxter s 3.1 NA boxer 6 194kw @ 6200

The M3 is the most powerful NA 6 I can think of. Boxer motors do not rev as high as the other configurations.

Cool
but if we wanted to design a flat-12 engine in a racing Mid-engine Rearwheel drive then..............................

[TheEnzo]

See this
this is a flat-4 it has the most logical movement

[TheEnzo]

V-6

[TheEnzo]

and the I-4

[crisis]

whatever, but I beleive this was your original question.

I wanted to ask u people technically.
Which engine configration is the best if the were same displacement, and the same number of piston................
by stock (without modifications)

PARTICULARLY
--------------------V-6 3.0 liter
INCLINE,----------- I-6 3.0 liter
BOXER (FLAT) ----- F-6 3.0 liter

THESE ARE SAME NO OF CYLINERS AND DISPLACMENT

BUT STILL WHICH WOULD BE MORE EFFICENT AND WILL PRODOUCE MORE POWER ????


Nice pictures though

[TheEnzo]

Originally posted by crisis
whatever, but I beleive this was your original question.

I wanted to ask u people technically.
Which engine configration is the best if the were same displacement, and the same number of piston................
by stock (without modifications)

PARTICULARLY
--------------------V-6 3.0 liter
INCLINE,----------- I-6 3.0 liter
BOXER (FLAT) ----- F-6 3.0 liter

THESE ARE SAME NO OF CYLINERS AND DISPLACMENT

BUT STILL WHICH WOULD BE MORE EFFICENT AND WILL PRODOUCE MORE POWER ????


Nice pictures though

thanx

[motormaniac]

Originally posted by motorhead
the size of the engine - it is very wide and it has a very low centre of gravity - which is good but the engine would be very wide and ferrari has just made the enzo and they have put their money into into wind tunnel testing - No company wants to waste their money by making something for nothing

true

[Supra-Devil]

yea ur all rite but flat-4 is more expensive n makes the body look bad no company wonts tht so no one makes it ok....!!!!!

[TheEnzo]

Originally posted by Supra-Devil
yea ur all rite but flat-4 is more expensive n makes the body look bad no company wonts tht so no one makes it ok....!!!!!

look whos talking

[motormaniac]

in simple context: the is no point in developing a flat 4 as the normal inline 4 cylinder engine works perfectly

[TheEnzo]

Originally posted by motormaniac
in simple context: the is no point in developing a flat 4 as the normal inline 4 cylinder engine works perfectly

then why does porsche and WRX use flat - 4

[motorhead]

Originally posted by TheEnzo
then why does porsche and WRX use flat - 4 porsche uses a FLAT 6 not flat 4 - but subaru does use a flat four - why ok - they have a lower centre of gravity thus the engines are very loe and thus the car handles well with little drag - it is the second most powerful(depends how you develope it) way of getting outright horsepower - first is offcourse a V6 - basicaslly its for the low centre of gravity

[TheEnzo]

Originally posted by motorhead
porsche uses a FLAT 6 not flat 4 - but subaru does use a flat four - why ok - they have a lower centre of gravity thus the engines are very loe and thus the car handles well with little drag - it is the second most powerful(depends how you develope it) way of getting outright horsepower - first is offcourse a V6 - basicaslly its for the low centre of gravity

ok forget porshe
why does subaru use it if it could get more power through a I-4
WRX --- F-4 --- 265 HP
VII --- I-4 --- 276HP

Why their wont be much difference in center of gravity I KNOW THAT so dont through the center of gravty at me ???

[motormaniac]

the wrx and the evo were developed differently.... the 2 cars r different...

[TheEnzo]

Originally posted by motormaniac
the wrx and the evo were developed differently.... the 2 cars r different...

I KNOW THAT
IF INCLINE - 4 produces more power than a Flat - 4
why does subaru use it Hun ????

[Nash]

Originally posted by TheEnzo
ok forget porshe
why does subaru use it if it could get more power through a I-4
WRX --- F-4 --- 265 HP
VII --- I-4 --- 276HP

Why their wont be much difference in center of gravity I KNOW THAT so dont through the center of gravty at me ???

Actually, they both use turbos and the WRX has 227hp. The STi has 300hp.

[piledriver]

Originally posted by TheEnzo
ok forget porshe
why does subaru use it if it could get more power through a I-4
WRX --- F-4 --- 265 HP
VII --- I-4 --- 276HP

Why their wont be much difference in center of gravity I KNOW THAT so dont through the center of gravty at me ???

in this case, I don´t think the displacement is so important to the horsepower, because both engines are turbocharged, and the pressure must actuate at the output...

[Nash]

The Lancer also uses a much smaller 1.8L compared to the STi's 2.5L.

[motorhead]

Originally posted by TheEnzo
I KNOW THAT
IF INCLINE - 4 produces more power than a Flat - 4
why does subaru use it Hun ???? have you heard a flat 4 above 3500RPM - have you??? - here in singapore wrx/wrx sti are quite common and my god when they get the chance to full throttle their cars they do it real well - a flat 4 in my view sounds like a modern american muscle V8 - fantastic BURBLE - the evo sounds like shit with its turbocharger whine

[TheEnzo]

Originally posted by motorhead
have you heard a flat 4 above 3500RPM - have you??? - here in singapore wrx/wrx sti are quite common and my god when they get the chance to full throttle their cars they do it real well - a flat 4 in my view sounds like a modern american muscle V8 - fantastic BURBLE - the evo sounds like shit with its turbocharger whine


no
i have never even heard a flat or Vee
Engines here in Pakistan

[motormaniac]

yeah pakistan has bajaj

[motorhead]

Originally posted by TheEnzo
no
i have never even heard a flat or Vee
Engines here in Pakistan man you have to hear it man - if you come hear to singapore you get all this

[TheEnzo]

Originally posted by motorhead
man you have to hear it man - if you come hear to singapore you get all this

i wish i could !!!!
:( :( :( :( :( :(

[motormaniac]

u can also go to everyother country to hear that

[motorhead]

Originally posted by motormaniac
u can also go to everyother country to hear that well singapore and japan are the bst actually because those are where a lot of wrxs are

[TheEnzo]

:( :( :(
i wish i could go
BUT UR GOVERMENT :mad: :mad: :mad:

[motorhead]

Originally posted by TheEnzo
:( :( :(
i wish i could go
BUT UR GOVERMENT :mad: :mad: :mad: oh ya - hahahahahaha

[TheEnzo]

Originally posted by motorhead
oh ya - hahahahahaha

you know them

[motorhead]

Originally posted by TheEnzo
you know them erm no - HAHAHA - but people have problems coming into singapore because eveyone wants to come here

[motormaniac]

wat's wrong with the goverment???

[motorhead]

Originally posted by motormaniac
wat's wrong with the goverment??? ask that fellow!

[TheEnzo]

Originally posted by motorhead
ask that fellow!

Dont ask

[motorhead]

Originally posted by TheEnzo
Dont ask HEHEHE!!!

[TheEnzo]

Originally posted by motorhead
HEHEHE!!!

:(

[motorhead]

Originally posted by TheEnzo
:( well you try your best ok

[crisis]

Originally posted by TheEnzo
then why does porsche and WRX use flat - 4

I think a better question is why doesnt anyone else?

[TheEnzo]

Originally posted by crisis
I think a better question is why doesnt anyone else?

yeah
stupid ferrari even used a FLAT-12
in teatrossa and boxer
they were no performence cars

[motorhead]

Originally posted by crisis
I think a better question is why doesnt anyone else? yep its very strange - subaru's insider said this - the ultimate car comes with 4 wheel drive and a boxer engine so why doesn't anyone use it

[stenyak]

from what i've read, the best choice is the flat6, because it produces no vibrations (any flat engine is perfectly balanced in any situation, therefore there's no horizontal, vertical o transversal vibration). also, they allow a lower center of gravity in the car, which makes the handling better.
the next better engine is the inline 6 in terms of vibration (more explanations about inline 6 (http://autozine.kyul.net/technical_school/engine/smooth3.htm#Inline-6)). A v6 (60º o 90º) allows lower center of gravity than i6, however it produces some vibrations that need to be eliminated via a balancer shaft. (more explanations about v6 (http://autozine.kyul.net/technical_school/engine/smooth3.htm#V6)).

about the question why nobody uses it, here you have it:
"they are too wide for good packaging, and is more expensive due to more parts used, thus the usage is limited to Porsche and Subaru today"
taken from this page:explanation of boxer engines (http://autozine.kyul.net/technical_school/engine/smooth5.htm#Boxer)

(sorry if my english is not perfect)

[Kudosdude]

Stenyak
I too have read the autozine article (it was a while ago mindyou), and while it was interesting from the point of view of having a balanced engine . . . it is highlighting a problem that does not really exist.

It's nice to see a bit of thought in this thread though, even if the thread is asking the impossible question.

By the way; there is no perfect engine configuration.

[stenyak]

kudosdude could you explain a bit more?
why do you say that it's a problem tha doesn't exist? i suppose if a engine is well balanced it will last more time, also the noise would be less, wouldn't it?

also you mention there's no perfect engine configuration. i think you mean that every car is a world and therefore a engine might be more suitable than other, while in another car it could be the other way. is that what you meant?

by the way, does it really matter the position of the cilinders when talking about power or torque (with the same cilinder size, of course)?
i dont know, but my opinion is that the power is then determined by other factors, such as aspiration method (normal superchargers, turbos...), the shape of the cylinders and pistons etc, number and position of valves, camshaft parameters (sohc-dohc, vvt...), type of injection, etc...

[crisis]

Originally posted by TheEnzo
yeah
stupid ferrari even used a FLAT-12
in teatrossa and boxer
they were no performence cars

Well theres another two. Anything lately?

[Kudosdude]

Stenyak

"I think you mean that every car is a world and therefore a engine might be more suitable than other, while in another car it could be the other way. is that what you meant?"

Spot on. A flat 12 ferrari engine is the WRONG choice for a fiat punto . . .

If engine balancing is such a big problem (as autozine would have you to believe) wouldn't you expect to see very few "unbalanced" engine configurations . . . why aren't we driving inline 3's instead of inline 4's?

Yes, a balanced engine is important . . . it's just not THAT important in the grand scheme of things.

Not the best answer I'm afraid, but I hope you get my gyst.

(P.S. yes the angle of the V/W does have an effect on power and torque curves, but I am led to believe that packaging is now the big engine design requirement)

[Scientist]

whoops...something went wrong with my computer...sorry :rolleyes:

[henk4]

Well theres another two. Anything lately?

It appears like this thread is dead but I never saw it before.
Some remarks though: Also Subaru is producing a flat 6.
The flat 12 Ferrari used is the BB and the Testa Rossa was said not be a performance engine. Yet their design was derived from the flat 12 that was used in F1 since 1970, and was powerwise superior to the Cosworth V8, but became obsolete due to the development of undertray aerodynamics.
The power difference between the EVO and the WRX is zero as these engines are both designed for WRC use, where power is governed to 300 BHP.

[Matra et Alpine]

Stenyak
If engine balancing is such a big problem (as autozine would have you to believe) wouldn't you expect to see very few "unbalanced" engine configurations . . . why aren't we driving inline 3's instead of inline 4's?

Yes, a balanced engine is important . . . it's just not THAT important in the grand scheme of things.


careful we're not talking about the difference between blancing an operational engine, which is all about managing to get extra revs and performance by perfecting the manufactured componenets.

That's a million miles from building a new engine, ( especially confirguration ) and it running smoothly. In some configurations, without balancing contra-shafts the engine would throw itself apart within a few inutes.

You do see triples - check out Japanese micro cars and Triumph motorbikes. But they need a balncing shaft which the 4 doesn't. It's a trade-off between the weight saveed by losing a piston and the weight added to leep it balanced.

Of course in bikes, performance 4s will run counterbalance shafts. That's how they manage 250bhp and 18000 revs from 1300cc :-)

What 'balance' did you mean ?

[henk4]

in another thread (about a smoggy diesel) we have been discussing 5 cylinder engines, and I mentioned the VR5 and the inline 5 of the VAG group. The pioneer was the 300D from Benz. Thinking a little bit further there is f.i. now the D5 Volvo and also the 5 cylinder engine in the Fiat Stilo Abarth. They might need some balancing but these engines have absolutely no rough reputation.

[motorhead]

Inline 6 sux
V6 are good engines...
but the flat 6 rulez...
the sound of a boxer 6 of the Porsche, is music to my ears, and its reliability is great!!
inline 6 does not suck in fact take a look at the 330i engine - honestly(you can't argue with this)it is one of the best engines ever produced

[Alfahollic]

This tread is extremely poor. But interesting, i would have thought the layout wouldnt have that much of an effect in power output? more to do with body design/structure. Surely if the manufacturer wants to achive a certain amount of BHP out of the engine with the same displacement and number of cylinders in the layout of inline, V or horizontally apposed they would be able to do it.

[Matra et Alpine]

This tread is extremely poor. But interesting, i would have thought the layout wouldnt have that much of an effect in power output? more to do with body design/structure. Surely if the manufacturer wants to achive a certain amount of BHP out of the engine with the same displacement and number of cylinders in the layout of inline, V or horizontally apposed they would be able to do it.Layout is important when trying to build a strong engine capable of high revs and power output.
And in-line 6 has a long "I" shape and the walls of the block must be thick and strengthened to cope with the stresses.
"V" shpe is easier to build in strength without LOTS of wasted metal.
by the time you get out to V12s some of the trade-offs are on the losing side again.
The angles of the V matter more for balance and power pulses.
I long for the day that F1 rules allow the teams to get out of V10s and play again. With modern materials a small stroke V12 or 16 could be an interesting engine :eek:

[henk4]

It is not without a reason that you don't see inline 8's anymore. You cannot extend the length of your engine indefinetely (also the crankshaft becomes of a critical length). Increasing the size of the cylinders also has its limits as you want to have a nice revving engine without having to worry too much about piston speed (witness the old Jaguar inline 6 with it's stroke of 106 mm)
That brings you automatically to the V shaped engines, and the angle of the V may differ although depending on the number of cylinders there appears to be a "natural" angle for each engine.

[Alfahollic]

Heres a very lazy engine. Redlineing at about 5500rpm. :p No wonder it won Bathurst 24hour 1 and 2.