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KnifeEdge_2K1
06-21-2004, 09:28 PM
Why is Nascar so popular, a few weeks ago i would have sworn on all the possesions i owned that it was THE most boring sport to watch in the world, that includes golf. Today ... I still go by that. Seriously its a bunch of cars going in circles, fine formula 1 is on an enclosed tracks but atleast it has more than 4 turns in a lap ... and they go in differnet directions, seriously.

As far as I can figure out the reason why its so popular is because its primary audience is ... americans. Im not trying to be a nationalist here but honestly speaking ... they in general are not smart people. If you give em a ball of yarn they can probubly amuse themselves for hours ...

sutton4481
06-21-2004, 10:32 PM
I'm not even going to touch the whole thing about Americans and not being smart, but NASCAR is more than just turning left. First, it takes a lot of concentration and skill to make a 3800lb car go almost 200mph around a track for 500 miles. Watch the Dodge/Save Mart 350 this Sunday and you'll see stock cars turning left and right. Also NASCAR racers, unlike most of todays F1 drivers, compete in other racing series. Tony Stewart races sprint cars and midgets i think and Jeff Gordon regularly wins rally car races (not WRC of course, but rallies none the less)

SilverG35SportC
06-21-2004, 11:11 PM
I think I agree with knife edge here. I think it takes a tremendous amount more skill to be an F1 driver or the like then NASCAR. It honestly doesnt take more skill then turning a wheel. And it doesnt seem to be very multi-national. With F1 we have, Villenuve, Schumacer and Button but in NASCAR we have Jeff Gordon and Dale Eernhat JR and ppl. They are all north amreican. I know its meant for North-Americasn but come on people.

henk4
06-21-2004, 11:31 PM
Absolutely nothing

IBrake4Rainbows
06-21-2004, 11:50 PM
NASCAR is a great racing thing for those who don't want to be taxed having to watch a race, which is why Rallying has never truly picked up in the U.S. You can see the whole track from your one seat, Pit Stop strategies don't mean as much, and the drivers must rely on getting the most speed out of every corner, no daring overtaking moves by braking late here.

It may not seem to have the skill level, but people like Commercial Pilots would like it. Why? It demands concentration at a relatively mundane task (Driving at 200MPH....) for 4 or 5 hours. Better than TV!

drakkie
06-22-2004, 12:40 AM
only the crashes are nice to watch, the rest is just boring

fpv_gtho
06-22-2004, 12:49 AM
You see this is why i like V8 Supercars. The same V8, RWD formula used in NASCAR, but its alot more like F1 ir DTM where the car body's are practically pulled off the street, stripped and fitted with a roll cage; the cars drive on a host of raceways, not circuits around the continent (soon to be world); a top 5 racer can make or break their race based on pit strategies etc. well you get where im coming from

digitalcraft
06-22-2004, 05:38 AM
Well, I'm an american, and I'd rather watch ping-pong championships than nascar. I really don't understand how it's popular.

digitalcraft
06-22-2004, 05:40 AM
Oh, and I love rally racing, but I don't think I'd actually want to go to an event, for the reason mentioned, not much viewing time. It's more interesting on TV ;)

2002GTI
06-22-2004, 07:51 AM
Not all Americans love Nascar, I can tell you that for sure. I honestly don't understand why it is popular either, who would want to watch a bunch or Tauras's and Monet Carlo's with truck engines go around in a circle.

The biggest problem I have with it is the race cars have nothing to do with the cars that they are supposedly based on, most of the production cars are front drive V6's not rear wheel drive V8's. I guess that is not important if it is only about entertainment... So why don't they just call it a Ford NASCAR instead of a Taurus??

I would much rather watch the ETC or DTM races, but they just don't show them in the states that much.

NASCAR = white trash Olympics, that is all I can say for sure.

sm

Smokescreen
06-22-2004, 07:52 AM
I would much rather watch a NASCAR race at bristol than the U.S. Grand Prix ant Indy. Not only are the races predictable, but they aren't entertainingat all. Look at the Champions from the last five years in NASCAR vs. F1:
NASCAR F1
99 Dale Jarett Mika Hakkinen
00 Bobby LaBonte Michael Schumacher
01 Jeff Gordon Michael Schumacher
02 Tony Stewart Michael Schumacher
03 Matt Kenseth Michael Schumacher

04 more than 10 in the running Michael Schumacher

At least in NASCAR they race, not chase.

sutton4481
06-22-2004, 08:13 AM
It does take more than just turning the wheel, you have to know when to brake, when to turn, how much your car can take before it spins, and aerodynamics are a huge issue, the best drafters are often the one who win the races.

henk4
06-22-2004, 08:18 AM
Was is last year that the guy who won 6 out of 18 races, did not win the championship and a guy who only won once did?

byronleehk
06-22-2004, 09:43 AM
All forms of racing have their 'goods' and 'bads'.

NASCAR may looked easy on TV but I'm sure it's not...maybe not as demanding as F1 but still not 'easy'.

You guys ever watched NACSARs on road courses? It's TONS OF FUN to watch (and some times team owners have to bring in specialty drivers for them).

Althought I'm a Ferrari fan, don't tell me that seeing the red F1 car way ahead of the pack in a GP race is 'exciting'...

Just my 2 cents :)

Ferrari Tifosi
06-22-2004, 11:48 AM
First of all, the attack on americans is not needed. Making generalizations and stereotypes shows ignorance.

NASCAR does take a lot of skill and knowledge, as does any form of racing. NASCAR has some great drivers that are very talented. In fact I remember when Speed Channel had the special were Jeff Gordon got to take a spin in the Williams FW25 and the Indy course. His best lap was 3 or 4 seconds off the qualifying times at Indy. That's pretty impressive for someone who's never driven a Grand Prix car.

Quiggs
06-22-2004, 12:02 PM
NASCAR does take a lot of skill and knowledge, as does any form of racing. NASCAR has some great drivers that are very talented. In fact I remember when Speed Channel had the special were Jeff Gordon got to take a spin in the Williams FW25 and the Indy course. His best lap was 3 or 4 seconds off the qualifying times at Indy. That's pretty impressive for someone who's never driven a Grand Prix car.

And JPM could barely keep the 3400 pound stock car going straight.

NASCAR is more close competition than a lot of European series. A four hour, 500 mile race decided by tenths of a second. As opposed to that red Ferrari streaking away from everything in sight. Or a LM race, where the winner is 3 laps ahead of the rest of the field.

As for the cars not being based on their production counterparts; that was done is the interests of safety and competition. The cars are built to certain specs to make keep costs lower. Also, a team doesn't need $400,000,000 to be competitive. It's somewhere closer to $20,000,000 for a 36 race season, including 7 test weeks.

As for the whole 'it's easy to turn left' philosophy. No. It isn't.

K, I'll stop ranting... :rolleyes:

Coventrysucks
06-22-2004, 12:48 PM
Also NASCAR racers, unlike most of todays F1 drivers, compete in other racing series. Tony Stewart races sprint cars and midgets i think and Jeff Gordon regularly wins rally car races (not WRC of course, but rallies none the less)

I think that comment is a bit naive.

Where do you think F1 drivers come from?
They don't just "hop in", they have to work their way up through the ranks of motorsport.

Many F1 drivers have competed in many different types of motorsport.
Mark Webber, Michael Schumacher, David Coulthard, Johnny Herbert, Alan McNish and many others have all raced in sucessfully in sports cars and at Le Mans, for instance.

The reason that no F1 drivers compete in other motorsports is because they hae exclusive contracts.

Michael Schumacher earned £40 million odd last year, and is worth a lot more to Ferrari if he wins the WDC and MC, and he has value for his sponsors as well.
If he were to break his leg racing on a "weekend off", that would be devastating for Ferrari's F1 campaign. So they don't take the risk, and there are probably a lot of things about that in his contract.

:)

Ferrari Tifosi
06-22-2004, 02:07 PM
I think that comment is a bit naive.

Where do you think F1 drivers come from?
They don't just "hop in", they have to work their way up through the ranks of motorsport.

Many F1 drivers have competed in many different types of motorsport.
Mark Webber, Michael Schumacher, David Coulthard, Johnny Herbert, Alan McNish and many others have all raced in sucessfully in sports cars and at Le Mans, for instance.

The reason that no F1 drivers compete in other motorsports is because they hae exclusive contracts.

Michael Schumacher earned £40 million odd last year, and is worth a lot more to Ferrari if he wins the WDC and MC, and he has value for his sponsors as well.
If he were to break his leg racing on a "weekend off", that would be devastating for Ferrari's F1 campaign. So they don't take the risk, and there are probably a lot of things about that in his contract.

:)

Not to mention that F1 drivers all start carting at a young age. I know in the case of the Schumachers, their parents owned a carting track and that's were they got their start in motor racing.

NAZCA C2
06-22-2004, 04:24 PM
i would just like to say that CART sucks

and thnx to the internet for making this all possible

up until about 3 years ago CART was the best racing series in the world!!!! now it sucks!

Matra et Alpine
06-22-2004, 04:31 PM
up until about 3 years ago CART was the best racing series in the world!!!! now it sucks!
well depends on definition of racing.
I'm not a great fan of controlled engines, chassis, suspension etc.
F1 is heading that way without bothering to learn the lesson :(

NAZCA C2
06-22-2004, 04:32 PM
NASCAR IS JUNK!

They only race 2 road courses all year long. (The Glen and Sonoma)
How many times can u go round a circle?
Everytime I see NASCAR highlights something is on fire.
Drivers throw their helmets at cars on the track. (this would never happen in F1 or any real racing series)
Drivers wreck into everything (why does NASCAR have so many wrecks in the pits?)
Cars have looked the same since the Reagan administration.
Cars are sponsored by some weird companies. (what guy would want to drive a car with Viagra stickers all over it?)
Painted on headlights.
Too many drivers named Dale.

NAZCA C2
06-22-2004, 04:34 PM
Hey Matra, in what series does every car in the field have a chance to win?

Coventrysucks
06-22-2004, 04:40 PM
I don't understand why so many Americans find it entertaining.

Have they never seen other types of motor racing (drag racing excepted)?

Do they seriously think that NASCAR is more entertaining that say, touring cars of some description?

NAZCA C2
06-22-2004, 04:47 PM
I don't understand why so many Americans find it entertaining.

Have they never seen other types of motor racing (drag racing excepted)?

Do they seriously think that NASCAR is more entertaining that say, touring cars of some description?

You are exactly right! NASCAR fans all must have never watched any other type of racing. If you watch a WRC, Moto GP, CART (prior to 2001), F1, or touring car race and still think NASCAR is great then obviously you have suffered some type of head trauma in your life.

Matra et Alpine
06-22-2004, 05:05 PM
Hey Matra, in what series does every car in the field have a chance to win?
THAT doesn't make it racing :)
Could be just random chance - in fact for EVERY driver to win it would almost certainly HAVE to be random !!
Making all the cars the same is OK for lower levels of racing - FF, FormulaRenault, PalmerAudi etc.
Top levels of sport are also about the engineering and the variation which requires diffrent driver skills.
I'm not anti these other forms, they have their place, but like communism, making it all the same doesn't make it better :)

sandwich
06-22-2004, 06:11 PM
worst thread ever.

I believe the idea behind nascar is to pit drivers against each other, whereas in most any other race it is car vs. car. The challenge is to see who can maintain the fastest speeds and therefore win the race. Pit accidents probably happen because more time is lost in the pits than in several laps.

That being said.... I don't want nascar. It appears to me to be more of an excuse to get loaded than to watch serious racing. I would pay good money to see a rally or ALMS race....but you can't really "see" a rally (hey there's a car.......hey there's a car.....hey there's a car.....) and ALMS is a lot less popular. Though I did go to the local sports bar to see last years Canadian event.

Of course...if you want to talk about redneck motorsports, let's talk about monster trucks, which is the best form of racing EVER.

GRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAVE DIGGEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEER

MrVette83
06-22-2004, 07:38 PM
I don't understand why so many Americans find it entertaining.

Have they never seen other types of motor racing (drag racing excepted)?

Do they seriously think that NASCAR is more entertaining that say, touring cars of some description?

I think its success all boils down to convience. NASCAR races are run on Sunday primarily with the exception of a few Saturday night races "Under the Lights". Sunday is a day that a lot of people in America like to kick back, relax and watch TV. They're mostly aired live as well meaning they're aired that afternoon, they're always on the larger networks(NBC and FOX run a split schedule of 18 races each), this means the races are right there fro the watching. F1 is usually aired on Speed channel on Sunday mornings when many people are asleep, other forms of auto racing that may or may not also be aired on Speed(a channel not everyone has) come on at less convenient times as well. In my oppinion its popularity just boils down to the fact that for those people who don't have cable or satelite it's a program on television that's just there for the watching. I appologize for the length of my explanation.

MrVette83
06-22-2004, 07:51 PM
Was is last year that the guy who won 6 out of 18 races, did not win the championship and a guy who only won once did?

Yes, last year Ryan Newman won 5 or 6 of the 36 race season while Matt Kenseth only won one and still won the championship. The key there that many people don't look at is the fact that Matt Kenseth was consistantly near the front of the field with only one DNF the whole season I think it was. Newman on the other hand was either in front or in the back, he was very rarely in between and had several DNFs. It's not that hard to get lucky somewhat throughout the season but to stay consistant and strong through the duration of the season(8 or 9 months) takes talent and teamwork.

Coventrysucks
06-22-2004, 07:52 PM
What would happen if a touring car series, GT or F1 races replace NASCAR on the Sunday afternoon TV schedule though?

Would NASCAR fans suddenly become enlightened?
Would there be rioting?

MrVette83
06-22-2004, 07:57 PM
What would happen if a touring car series, GT or F1 races replace NASCAR on the Sunday afternoon TV schedule though?

Would NASCAR fans suddenly become enlightened?
Would there be rioting?

Who knows, could be, I also think that the loyalty many Americans have to the sport is that it reminds them of the past, the days before there was a global society with mass media and they would sit down on a Sunday afternoon with their fathers and watch the Pettys, Yarboroughs, and the Foyts.

IBrake4Rainbows
06-23-2004, 12:11 AM
First off, let me apologise if you think this is an attack on Americans, it's not, only an attack on the sport of NASCAR.

heres a few points from me:
1: I Find both NASCAR and F1 boring, but for differing reasons. NASCAR has spectacular crashes, close racing and varying winners, but it's the same oval OVER AND OVER AND OVER! plus, it's a relatively easy sport to do well at, providing you can handle rear-wheel drive.
F1, on the other hand, has fast racing, death-defying skill and the utter lack of any fun. It's watered down death, in essence, and since all you ever see is a red Ferrari winning a race (Save for Monaco) i really don't care for it, go fast all you want guys, i'm not paying $400 just for a glimpse of you in the pits and a practice session.

2: Both sports popularity can be thanked solely on TV Rights, otherwise they would still be the same as they were 20-30 years ago.

3: Sandwich, everyone knows Bigfoot rules, ok? :D

4: As i mentioned earlier, i't is successful because you can see the WHOLE racetrack, rather than have to wake up at 5:30 Am in the blistering cold/hot, pull on/off a parka and be coated with ice/Dirt/Grime to catch a glimpse of a passing car.

All sports have merits and minuses, but hey, just enjoy that there actually here, hey?

whiteballz
06-23-2004, 12:16 AM
getting up that early and being covered in dust grime and ice is what its all about! ! ! its a MANS race, no real nice smooth race prepared tarmac just dirt and the occasional tarmac stage!

PsychoChimp22
06-23-2004, 12:40 AM
Im American and I dont think that really has anything to do with liking it...
I would rather sit in a chair for 1,000 years watching a rock erode

DodgeNitroBIRM
06-23-2004, 01:52 AM
I saw your points up except for this one:



heres a few points from me:
1: I Find both NASCAR and F1 boring, but for differing reasons. NASCAR has spectacular crashes, close racing and varying winners, but it's the same oval OVER AND OVER AND OVER! plus, it's a relatively easy sport to do well at, providing you can handle rear-wheel drive.


It's not just being able to handle a rear-wheel drive, but a rear-wheel drive with an 800 Hp engine with no traction control, ABS, launch control, yaw control and a car that weighs nearly a ton. This same car also has no exotic materials like carbon fiber brakes, carbon fiber body parts, etc.

There is also one point I haven't seen anyone make about NASCAR's popularity, most of the tracks aren't that far from you home. For example, I'm only an hour or so drive from any NASCAR track, be it the Weekly Series or Nextel. I ALSO am one of the many fans that like other forms of racing, not just oval track racing. I like the BTCC, ETCC, JGTC, F1 (somewhat, getting kinda boring lately), Rally, D1GP, I could keep going. I'm not the only one like this, there are many American's who like NASCAR and other forms of racing. (Brake, this wasn't directed at you.) My biggest draw to NASCAR is the close racing (very, VERY close), the closeness of the tracks to my home, the simplicity of the cars (no computers for anything), the skill these drivers have, again, I could go on.

As far as skill goes, there is a lot. I guess you have to have grown up in a situation like I have, I had worked with service writer who was a Modified driver, I worked with a technician who was a Late Model driver, I worked with another service writer who was a mechanic on his son's Modified, I grew up around racers who drove oval tracks. I was also grown up on Drag Racing, but that isn't the disscussion here (if anything, I probably should be thinking Drag Racing as an ultimate sport, I've actually been around it more). I have pit crewed with a Modified team, too (the first guy I mention to be exact). It was fun and I wish I could do it again, but I'm now working at a different dealership than him and I don't get to talk to him as often as I want.

fpv_gtho
06-23-2004, 04:35 AM
[QUOTE=Quiggs]NASCAR is more close competition than a lot of European series. A four hour, 500 mile race decided by tenths of a second. As opposed to that red Ferrari streaking away from everything in sight. Or a LM race, where the winner is 3 laps ahead of the rest of the field.

As for the cars not being based on their production counterparts; that was done is the interests of safety and competition. The cars are built to certain specs to make keep costs lower. Also, a team doesn't need $400,000,000 to be competitive. It's somewhere closer to $20,000,000 for a 36 race season, including 7 test weeks.QUOTE]


Another comparison to V8 Supercars from me :p :

I sat for over 12 hours watching live coverage from Bathurst last year. That included practise, qualifying, shootout and the actual 7 hour race, as well as some support events such as the Carrera Cup. Over 7 hours, on one of the final laps, Mark Skaife and Greg Murphy were still fighting for position one, before Skaife was brought in for a drive through penalty. Close racing indeed. Round 3 that year though at Eastern Creek, Marcos Ambrose took his first round win after taking the lead from the start. he had built up a 40 second lead before a crash brought the safety car out, which he was then with 20 laps left able to gain a 20 second lead before the finish of the race. Just one example of how its not always the category that can give someone a 2 second advantage or a 0.2 second advantage in the times.


I personally think NASCAR go overboard by their means of body construction. It may be safe, but there are other means. Again, V8 Supercars still use the standard monocoque chassis and body panels from the roadgoing Falcon and Commodores, albeit with a highly intergrated rollcage built to withstand impacts of around 300km/h.

As far as costs go, the top 2 Ford drivers last round, Marcos Ambrose and John Bowe, were from the opposite ends of the spectrum in a couple of ways. For one, Ambrose is part of one of 3 of Fords top level teams on budget, whilst Bowe is in a reasonably small team, with a fairly miserly budget. Ambrose is also just entering the peak of his career at 27, and whilst Bowe is 55 and his career highlight being his 1995 championship victory, he is in no way slowing down. A V8 Supercar from the ground up, costs about $350000, and thats with a $100,000 American sourced engine and $20,000 gearbox. A budget of $20,000,000 for NASCAR is more than enough i reckon

MrVette83
06-23-2004, 01:09 PM
I ALSO am one of the many fans that like other forms of racing, not just oval track racing. I like the BTCC, ETCC, JGTC, F1 (somewhat, getting kinda boring lately), Rally, D1GP, I could keep going. I'm not the only one like this, there are many American's who like NASCAR and other forms of racing.

I'm with you on that Dodge, I like NASCAR plus about all other forms of motor racing. Wether this be ATVs and Motocross, boat racing, about any type of car racing. In short, if it's got an engine and it's in a race, I love it.

Ferrari Tifosi
06-23-2004, 01:16 PM
I don't particularly like NASCAR, but I do like some short track racing (Bristol is great) and a good bit of oval racing. Especially sprint cars, the World of Outlaws series has some great racing.

DodgeNitroBIRM
06-23-2004, 02:02 PM
I don't particularly like NASCAR, but I do like some short track racing (Bristol is great) and a good bit of oval racing. Especially sprint cars, the World of Outlaws series has some great racing.


You might like USAC Midget Sprints (or USAC in general). They use paved and unpaved ovals, mostly short tracks like Irwindale, Indy Raceway Park, and the old Nashville Fairgrounds track. These are basically small, wingless sprints with 4 or 6 cylinder engines.

BTW- for those who don't know, USAC stands for United States Auto Club and they also race Late Model cars along with the Midget Sprints and Sprints.

MrVette83
06-23-2004, 02:08 PM
You might like USAC Midget Sprints (or USAC in general). They use paved and unpaved ovals, mostly short tracks like Irwindale, Indy Raceway Park, and the old Nashville Fairgrounds track. These are basically small, wingless sprints with 4 or 6 cylinder engines.

BTW- for those who don't know, USAC stands for United States Auto Club and they also race Late Model cars along with the Midget Sprints and Sprints.


I've never been to an actual race at the Fairgrounds but I've watched a practice session with the USAC cars. IMO it'd be a fun race to attend.

Ferrari Tifosi
06-23-2004, 02:12 PM
You might like USAC Midget Sprints (or USAC in general). They use paved and unpaved ovals, mostly short tracks like Irwindale, Indy Raceway Park, and the old Nashville Fairgrounds track. These are basically small, wingless sprints with 4 or 6 cylinder engines.

BTW- for those who don't know, USAC stands for United States Auto Club and they also race Late Model cars along with the Midget Sprints and Sprints.

Oh yeah, USAC Midget Sprints are great, I caught a couple of the races on Speed but I hope to attend one live soon.

DodgeNitroBIRM
06-24-2004, 07:34 PM
(Thought this would be an interesting read. Got off of the NASCAR.com site and I did not write this article.)

"Road-course ringers come from varied backgrounds"
By Dave Rodman, Turner Sports Interactive June 24, 2004
11:14 AM EDT (1514 GMT)

SONOMA, Calif. -- Twice a year, at each NASCAR Cup Series road course event, a group of drivers that could be termed "interlopers," "substitutes" or most popularly, "road-course ringers" appears on the entry list.

Despite the fact that most of them have a great amount of experience in road racing, the transistion to Cup racing has proven to be difficult.

This weekend's Dodge/Save Mart 350 at the 1.99-mile Infineon Raceway has a group of six drivers that have not regularly competed in the Nextel Cup Series this season.

Boris Said
Said, 41, of Carlsbad, Calif., is the defending Bud Pole winner of the Dodge/Save Mart 350 and for the second consecutive year will drive for MB2/MBV Motorsports.

Said will pilot a No. 36 Centrix Financial Chevrolet as a teammate to Joe Nemechek and Scott Riggs. In his 10th Cup point race, Said will try to improve on his career best sixth-place finish, scored in this race last year.

Said won the final NASCAR Craftsman Truck Series race at Infineon, in 1998 and he also finished second in last year's NASCAR Featherlite Southwest Series race. Said will return to the Southwest Series on Saturday at Infineon in a Federated Auto Parts Chevrolet entered by Ken Schrader Racing.

Said will also compete in Sunday's SCCA Trans-Am Series race following the Dodge/Save Mart 350. He has won his class in four of five Grand-American Rolex Series races this season.

"This is what I wait for and this is what I would love to do full time," Said said. "Winning the pole at Infineon ranks as one of my biggest accomplishments in racing (and) each time I get to drive in a Cup race, it's like a little kid having another Christmas."

Scott Pruett
Pruett, 44, of Sacramento, Calif., is a winning Indy car driver, former SCCA Trans-Am champion and current leader in the Grand-American Rolex Sports Car Series -- thanks to victories in the last two events.

Pruett, who has the most Cup experience of the road-course experts, has been recently aligned with owner Chip Ganassi, who's entered a No. 39 Target Dodge for Pruett.

Pruett had a good run in Ganassi's No. 39 Intrepid spoiled last year at Infineon, but proved his worth at Watkins Glen International, where he led nine laps and finished second behind Robby Gordon.

Klaus Graf
Graf, 32, of Dornhorn, Germany, is a veteran road racer who once had aspirations of racing in Formula One. He has been negotiating a stock car career with Nextel Cup team BAM Racing, which has entered a No. 59 Dodge at Infineon. Graf won his first title in the German Formula Ford Championship in 1993, and made it to the German Formula III level, considered a prime training ground for Formula One.

At that point, Graf made a move to sports car. In addition to racing in the Porsche Super Cup Championship, which is a support series at many Formula One venues, Graf also moved to the United States and raced for four seasons with American racing entrepreneur Don Panoz.

Graf achieved what he calls his best sports car moment in that period, leading the 24 Hours of Le Mans. He made a stunning American stock car debut in April at Nashville Superspeedway, where he finished third and led the race in the late stages.

Jim Inglebright
Inglebright, 42, of Fairfield, Calif., has perhaps the best opportunity of his lengthy West Coast career when he steps into Richard Childress Racing's No. 30 American Online Chevrolet.

Inglebright -- who's a fan favorite due to his long-standing sponsorship from the Jelly Belly jellybean company -- caught the attention of Cup owners by winning three consecutive Featherlite Southwest Series races at Infineon that were held as support races on the Cup weekend.

Inglebright, who for several seasons competed in select Craftsman Truck Series races, is a regular in the NASCAR Grand National Division, West Series and also competes in selected Featherlite Southwest Series races, where he is a race winner and track record holder at a diverse group of facilities.

Austin Cameron
Cameron, 27, of El Cajon, Calif., is one of racing's most endearing success stories as he continues to race and excel in the NASCAR West Series while in remission from cancer.

This season, Cameron -- who began his career in karts and also competed for a time in the Skip Barber Road Racing School Formula Ford Series -- has two top-five finishes, including a win, in four West Series starts for Bill McAnally Racing.

McAnally, who fielded Nextel Cup Raybestos Rookie candidate Brendan Gaughan in his Winston West championship seasons, has entered a No. 61 McMillin Homes/NAPA Auto Care Chevrolet for Cameron, who won the inaugural NASCAR Toyota Shootout at Irwindale Speedway in 2003.

Cameron's BMR crew will warm up for Sunday's event by servicing teammate Inglebright's car in the Featherlite Southwest Series race.

Brandon Ash
Ash, 26, of Umpqua, Ore., has raced a limited number of events in 2004, including a top-10 finish in his single NASCAR West Series start.

Ash's family owned team has entered a No. 02 Ash Racing Engines Ford in what they hope will be their Cup debut. The team has attempted a limited number of Cup starts over the last several seasons at West Coast venues, without success.

byronleehk
06-25-2004, 08:02 AM
I don't particularly like NASCAR, but I do like some short track racing (Bristol is great) and a good bit of oval racing. Especially sprint cars, the World of Outlaws series has some great racing.

Right on Ferrari Tifosi!

I like all forms of racing including two-wheelers like MotoGP, WSB and sometimes even BMX (serious) :p ...

And Outlaws...they are the KINGS of DRIFTING !!

No professional racing is easy!!

Ferrari Tifosi
06-26-2004, 12:36 AM
I love Moto Gp as well, but I do not follow WSB, mainly because I like the idead behind Moto Gp for using prototype bikes instead of production bikes.

foto_choppa
06-26-2004, 05:29 AM
D1NZ 4 ever!!!!!

Karrmann
06-26-2004, 05:30 PM
nascar is more fun than you think.

Matra et Alpine
06-26-2004, 05:41 PM
nascar is more fun than you think.
So is cricket :)

Karrmann
06-26-2004, 05:43 PM
:D ha ha

KnifeEdge_2K1
06-26-2004, 09:36 PM
When they have chicanes in a nascar track .. then we'll talk. As far as I'm concerned almost all the turns in ALL nascar tracks are more or less the same, the line is almost the same, and all the cars are almost the same. TRUE that F1 championships have become predictable, always ferrari this schumacher that. BUT atleast the chase you see is a GOOD chase, not a buncha inbred half wits going in circles. Seriously, with one day's practice, I can race in nascar. For christs sake ... its a circle, literally a CIRCLE.

DodgeNitroBIRM
06-26-2004, 10:13 PM
When they have chicanes in a nascar track .. then we'll talk. As far as I'm concerned almost all the turns in ALL nascar tracks are more or less the same, the line is almost the same, and all the cars are almost the same. TRUE that F1 championships have become predictable, always ferrari this schumacher that. BUT atleast the chase you see is a GOOD chase, not a buncha inbred half wits going in circles. Seriously, with one day's practice, I can race in nascar. For christs sake ... its a circle, literally a CIRCLE.

First, let me address the "all turns in ALL nascar tracks" part. No, they are not. There is a big difference in even two similar tracks, Charlotte (Lowes) Motorspeedway and Texas Motorspeedway. You can't take Texas' turn one like you can Lowes turn one. You actually brake more at Texas. The two road courses, Infinion (Sears Point) and Watkins Glen, are VERY different. Infinion is narrow and it's famous for it's final hairpin turn. Watkins Glen has the chican where guys like Robby Gordon, Ron Fellows, and Jeff Gordon will throw their right wheels into the air to make the turns. Watkins also is famous for it's high speed and baby blue gaurd rails. The short tracks of Bristol and Martinsville are COMPLEATLY different. Bristol has high banks and high speeds while Martinsville is flat and the speeds are very low. So, NO, no two tracks are the same.
Next, I'll address your "in a days practice, I can do it." I literally, honestly challenge you do it! If you make can even make the top 20, I'll do what ever the hell you want. I'm more willing to bet you won't make it though the first turn at a simple track like Lowes, I'll even bet you wouldn't last half the distance at Talladega!
Next, I am HIGHLY OFFENDED by you comment "buncha inbred half wits going in circles." You really need to grow up and learn that comments like that are never going to get you anywhere.
Finally, a circle defined by Encyclopaedia Britannica (online) is "Geometrical curve, one of the conic sections, consisting of the set of all points the same distance (the radius) from a given point (the centre)." So, they are not circles, they are elipses, as defined as "closed curve, one of the conic sections of analytic geometry, consisting of all points whose distances from each of two fixed points (foci) add up to the same value." This was also defined by the Encyclopaedia Britannica.

Coventrysucks
06-27-2004, 05:19 AM
Next, I am HIGHLY OFFENDED by you comment "buncha inbred half wits going in circles." You really need to grow up and learn that comments like that are never going to get you anywhere.

Nice sense of humor

:)

DodgeNitroBIRM
06-27-2004, 05:38 AM
Really? I thought I was going a bit overboard. Guess it was me. You sure I wasn't going overborad? :confused: :D :D ;)

KnifeEdge_2K1
06-27-2004, 08:57 AM
well first of all i said "MOST of all the turns in MOST of the tracks" are the same, you can't deny that
second if its not right for me to call americans a buncha inbred morons, why is it that almost all americans call canadians lumberjacks and eskimos, americans practically invented every stereotypical insults there are. wtf is a chink ?? im chinese and if anyone ever calls me that i swear ill kick there head off, which country made teh N word infamous? there u go

sandwich
06-27-2004, 09:13 AM
another one star thread, and I thought we were through with r28kw423 or whatever his name was?

DodgeNitroBIRM
06-27-2004, 10:56 AM
well first of all i said "MOST of all the turns in MOST of the tracks" are the same, you can't deny that

Actually, yes I can.


When they have chicanes in a nascar track .. then we'll talk. As far as I'm concerned almost all the turns in ALL nascar tracks are more or less the same, the line is almost the same, and all the cars are almost the same.

You only mention the line (which is not true watch Mike Waltrip run the "Handsome Harry Gant Groove.") and the cars being almost the same. The tracks, you say, are the same.


second if its not right for me to call americans a buncha inbred morons, why is it that almost all americans call canadians lumberjacks and eskimos, americans practically invented every stereotypical insults there are. wtf is a chink ?? im chinese and if anyone ever calls me that i swear ill kick there head off, which country made teh N word infamous? there u go

I also didn't (or did not intend to) turn this political, racial, whatever you want to name. I just said that i was VERY OFFENDED by calling these drivers a "buncha inbred half wits going in circles." I did not say that you were calling all Americans that. However, I still stand by what I said, name calling will get no one anywhere, no matter who you are, where you are, or where you are from. I will, however, step aside that and say that I personally think you are a jackass. I'm one of the MANY Americans that don't call Canadians lumberjacks, eskimos, or whatever else may be used against one. I have friends from Canada, Germany, Aus.(Author Note: I KANT SPEL DAM ET!), New Jersey(AN: KIDDING!!), Japan, Russia, and many more places I can't think of. And I'm sure I've met many that I unfortunetly don't remember from other areas of the World. And, no, if you would do some research, we did NOT come up with every stereotypical insults there are. You will find that the majority of the older insults came from innocent backgrounds. The origin of the "N-word" is interesting in itself.

Ferrari Tifosi
06-27-2004, 04:16 PM
All the tracks the same, look at Pocono and Martinsville, they are NOTHING alike! Pocono has a triangluar shape and Martinsville is the standard oval setup. And like DodgeNitro said, grow up KnifeEdge, name calling belongs in a 3rd grade classroom not this forum.

Jeff Gordon just won at Sonoma, good race.

KnifeEdge_2K1
06-27-2004, 09:36 PM
alright alright i admit ive been childish to say the least but the thing it comes down to is, every nascar race ive ever watched, ive fallen asleep in, every f1 race ive ever watched, ive cheered, yelled and cursed to the end. I dont deny the fact that there are alot of mechanics and strategies involved with nascar and all racing for that matter, even go karts.
to clear things up can anyone post a link with birds eye views of all the tracks in nascar ? cuz as far as i know (the 4 races that ive watched) all of the tracks had pretty much the same layout, either an oval or an oval with one end stretched a bit ...

again i apologize for the name calling, my bad

i still stick with my statement saying how with one days practice i can prolly finish a race (not finish 1st .. but finish). i dont want to come off as stuck up or over cocky but driving has always come natural to me and im a quick learner.

KnifeEdge_2K1
06-27-2004, 09:38 PM
ok what the hell i went to the nascar site and looked at about 10 tracks ... they are all the same, with some minor differences like the angle of the turns they're all the same thing, one huge ass oval

... ive seen go kart tracks more sophisticated than this !!

i go by my first conclusion, nascar is boring as hell ... excluding the crashes

Ferrari Tifosi
06-27-2004, 09:50 PM
Finish a race? I highly doubt it, because driving may come easy to you, but its not just driving, its RACING. There's a huge difference between being out on a track by yourself and being out on a track with 40 other cars. These cars aren't as easy to control as you think, if Jeff Gordon can spin out from a mistake after about 20 years of experience and being one of the best, than I doubt you would be able to make it more than 2 laps.

KnifeEdge_2K1
06-27-2004, 10:04 PM
whats the difference between driving and racing? i think driving is alot more difficult than racing, in racing you have one thing to concentrate on, to get to first place and stay in first place. I know you have to think about taking the right line, saving your brakes, fuel usage but driving has its difficulties too, you have to watch out for pedestrians other drivers, signal lights, speed limit, road condition (most tracks are kept dry and flawless .. unlike roads) traffic codes, bus lanes, cyclists, restrictions, other drivers, the list goes on. Racing is in my mind less difficult, there is no speed limit, you dont have to change lanes, dont have to signal.

When driving the conditions are constantly changing, on a race track you're doing lap after lap on the same track. Once you get the "rhythm" you job becomes rather simple

AKlingel
06-27-2004, 10:06 PM
I will admit that sometimes Nascar races can be boring when they simply run laps in the draft or have rediculously long caution runs, but there is one good thing they still have. Short track racing is exciting. I challenge anyone to not be entertained by a race at Martinsville or Bristol. Bumping and Banging fenders while screaming through the high banks at Bristol is a unique event in motorsports. While I would much rather watch a F1 race, here in the US it is hard to escape the TV coverage of Nascar. At least in nascar they have differnent winners each week, but I am still amazed every weekend when Shuemy does it again, as if it is easy, and I am sure it is not. Every form of motorsports is challenging, and it is impossible to deny that, despite how differnt the challenges may be.

KnifeEdge_2K1
06-27-2004, 10:10 PM
I also didn't (or did not intend to) turn this political, racial, whatever you want to name. I just said that i was VERY OFFENDED by calling these drivers a "buncha inbred half wits going in circles." I did not say that you were calling all Americans that. However, I still stand by what I said, name calling will get no one anywhere, no matter who you are, where you are, or where you are from. I will, however, step aside that and say that I personally think you are a jackass. I'm one of the MANY Americans that don't call Canadians lumberjacks, eskimos, or whatever else may be used against one. I have friends from Canada, Germany, Aus.(Author Note: I KANT SPEL DAM ET!), New Jersey(AN: KIDDING!!), Japan, Russia, and many more places I can't think of. And I'm sure I've met many that I unfortunetly don't remember from other areas of the World. And, no, if you would do some research, we did NOT come up with every stereotypical insults there are. You will find that the majority of the older insults came from innocent backgrounds. The origin of the "N-word" is interesting in itself.

i didnt say americans "came up" with them, but when and where did the N word get its current status. Only in north america have i heard the word chink. Only in america do they think canadians are lumberjacks and eskimos (i didnt mean to imply you, just the majority of the populace). hell americans have pet names for themselves, rednecks, hicks, even teh states have there own stereotypes

KnifeEdge_2K1
06-27-2004, 10:12 PM
Every form of motorsports is challenging, and it is impossible to deny that, despite how differnt the challenges may be.

:'( sniff thats beautiful man
thats the most fair, unbiased, polite, strait forward, short and complete post throughout the thread ... you're a genius man

KnifeEdge_2K1
06-27-2004, 10:29 PM
adressing my pervious remark about how all americans are stupid, i actually have something with which to back it up
average national iq in america is 98
the only other contries which got a higher score were
china 100
uk 100
italy 102
japan 105
hong kong 107 OH YEAH BABY, TAKE THAT

what's intresting however is united states should have the highest iq since of these 6 countries US has highest gdp per cap (there is a strong positive corrolation between gdp and iq, an r value of .73) almost 50% more than the next closest country. Even with better education and more money the united states fails to match up with china which has a gdp of 3k compared to nearly 30k, thats nearly 1000% more.

DodgeNitroBIRM
06-27-2004, 11:16 PM
I have five tracks that are different from each other.

Here are the tracks in this order, Atlanta Motorspeedway, Bristol Motorspeedway, Phoenix International Raceway, Pocono Raceway, and Watkins Glen. If you say they are the same, you are very blind.

Next, some information about them.

Atlanta
Banking/Turns: 24°
Distance: 1.54 miles

Bristol
Banking/Turns: 36°
Distance: 0.533 miles

Phoenix
Banking/Turns: 11° (turns 1 and 2) |9° (three, four)| less than 5° (dogleg)
Distance: 1.0 miles

Pocono
Banking/Turns: 14° (turn 1)/ 8° (turn 2)/ 6° (turn 3)
Distance: 2.5mi

Watkins Glen
Banking/Turns: Various due to being an 11 turn Road Course
Distance: 2.45mi

As you can now clearly see, these tracks are no where close to being the same. The lines are not even the same for EACH of these tracks.

DodgeNitroBIRM
06-27-2004, 11:19 PM
The last track in my list.

Ferrari Tifosi
06-28-2004, 12:00 AM
whats the difference between driving and racing? i think driving is alot more difficult than racing, in racing you have one thing to concentrate on, to get to first place and stay in first place. I know you have to think about taking the right line, saving your brakes, fuel usage but driving has its difficulties too, you have to watch out for pedestrians other drivers, signal lights, speed limit, road condition (most tracks are kept dry and flawless .. unlike roads) traffic codes, bus lanes, cyclists, restrictions, other drivers, the list goes on. Racing is in my mind less difficult, there is no speed limit, you dont have to change lanes, dont have to signal.

When driving the conditions are constantly changing, on a race track you're doing lap after lap on the same track. Once you get the "rhythm" you job becomes rather simple

You mis-understood me, I meant there is a big difference between driving a race car, and racing one.

Ferrari Tifosi
06-28-2004, 12:07 AM
adressing my pervious remark about how all americans are stupid, i actually have something with which to back it up
average national iq in america is 98
the only other contries which got a higher score were
china 100
uk 100
italy 102
japan 105
hong kong 107 OH YEAH BABY, TAKE THAT

what's intresting however is united states should have the highest iq since of these 6 countries US has highest gdp per cap (there is a strong positive corrolation between gdp and iq, an r value of .73) almost 50% more than the next closest country. Even with better education and more money the united states fails to match up with china which has a gdp of 3k compared to nearly 30k, thats nearly 1000% more.

I had thought you stopped with this childish b.s., but I guess not. You have a lot of growing up to do. Do you find pleasure in proving that Americans are stupid? I guarantee to you that ALL Americans are not stupid, and you are rather ignorant for saying so.

Anyways those statistics don't prove much. America is a very diverse country and those statistics include people who were educated outside America. I know that around here in Georgia, we have lots of Hispanic people who were educated in their original country (usually Columbia, Puerto Rico, Haiti, etc.) which usually is a third world country, and they recieved education that was horrible if they were educated at all. You have to put into account these variables before you make judgements based on those numbers.

Matra et Alpine
06-28-2004, 02:29 AM
whats the difference between driving and racing?
oh boy :)

Well best advice is get yourself to a trackday.
Then do a lap of the track.
Then do the next lap 1 second faster.
Keep going till you fall off.
Now try and REPEAT that fastest lap without falling of for an hour.
Then go look at the guy who went FASTER than you and learn :)

Matra et Alpine
06-28-2004, 02:31 AM
Once you get the "rhythm" you job becomes rather simple
bet you think the same about making love :)

KnifeEdge_2K1
06-28-2004, 09:54 AM
that still doesnt change the fact it lost to a country with a gdp of 3 thousand dollars, 1/10th of the american gdp, china has 1 billion people in it not 300 million


I had thought you stopped with this childish b.s., but I guess not. You have a lot of growing up to do. Do you find pleasure in proving that Americans are stupid? I guarantee to you that ALL Americans are not stupid, and you are rather ignorant for saying so.


do you find pleasure in trying to argue every point i make? well there you go, you're mearly trying to prove a point, as am i
again i never said ALL americans were stupid, i said majority were. an iq score under 100 means they did worse then 50% of the people who took the test. as far as im concerned thats stupid, again considering the higher standard of living



You have to put into account these variables before you make judgements based on those numbers.

im not the one conducting these tests, i know samples were taken across each country (to survey the population of the world would be impossible). since this was conducted by a major organization it can be assumed they would take these variables into account. plus this is a nation we're talking about, not racial, i dont care about the background or past of these people, if they're a citizen of america then they are americans all the same. just like im chinese but im a citizen of canada so that makes me canadian. the US could consist of 80% french background and i couldn't care less

KnifeEdge_2K1
06-28-2004, 09:54 AM
bet you think the same about making love :)

haha if it were only that easy matra, if only ;)

KnifeEdge_2K1
06-28-2004, 09:57 AM
oh boy :)

Well best advice is get yourself to a trackday.
Then do a lap of the track.
Then do the next lap 1 second faster.
Keep going till you fall off.
Now try and REPEAT that fastest lap without falling of for an hour.
Then go look at the guy who went FASTER than you and learn :)

do you know of any tracks in my area?
... seriously i aint jokin
i live in markham ontario
about 30 minutes north from downtown toronto

the closest thing we have to an actual track are ... well nothing

KnifeEdge_2K1
06-28-2004, 09:58 AM
You mis-understood me, I meant there is a big difference between driving a race car, and racing one.

woops sorry bout that

KnifeEdge_2K1
06-28-2004, 10:01 AM
I have five tracks that are different from each other.

Here are the tracks in this order, Atlanta Motorspeedway, Bristol Motorspeedway, Phoenix International Raceway, Pocono Raceway, and Watkins Glen. If you say they are the same, you are very blind.

Next, some information about them.

Atlanta
Banking/Turns: 24°
Distance: 1.54 miles

Bristol
Banking/Turns: 36°
Distance: 0.533 miles

Phoenix
Banking/Turns: 11° (turns 1 and 2) |9° (three, four)| less than 5° (dogleg)
Distance: 1.0 miles

Pocono
Banking/Turns: 14° (turn 1)/ 8° (turn 2)/ 6° (turn 3)
Distance: 2.5mi

Watkins Glen
Banking/Turns: Various due to being an 11 turn Road Course
Distance: 2.45mi

As you can now clearly see, these tracks are no where close to being the same. The lines are not even the same for EACH of these tracks.

is distance really make that much of a difference? the only thing i can think of it will affect is the lap times and speeds throughout the corners and straits, less available space to accelerate = lower speeds.

again if you're going to throw stats into my face then i got nothign to say

but let me ask you this

are all or most of the tracks u listed in the shape of a giant egg? be honest, if they only consist of left turns, its an egg

id like to clearify a misunderstanding

when i said that all the tracks and lines were the "same" i didnt mean for it to sound like im saying its identical, what i meant was "really similar"

sandwich
06-28-2004, 10:16 AM
you're giving canadians a bad name.

Surely there must be some 13 and under chat room you can go to in order to further your own ignorance.

This is a forum about automobiles, not a daycare for racists.

If you disagree, step back and take a look at what an ass you're making yourself out to be. Keep talking that trash- it only makes you look worse. You throw some unintelligible dirt around, and I see Americans defending themselves intelligently.

I hope for all our sakes you A) Grow up, B) Wise up, C) Leave the Forum, D) Get banned.

I know if I were a mod we wouldn't be having this conversation.

DodgeNitroBIRM
06-28-2004, 11:15 AM
is distance really make that much of a difference? the only thing i can think of it will affect is the lap times and speeds throughout the corners and straits, less available space to accelerate = lower speeds.

again if you're going to throw stats into my face then i got nothign to say

but let me ask you this

are all or most of the tracks u listed in the shape of a giant egg? be honest, if they only consist of left turns, its an egg

id like to clearify a misunderstanding

when i said that all the tracks and lines were the "same" i didnt mean for it to sound like im saying its identical, what i meant was "really similar"

I had pictures attached to the threads, but they aren't showing up. They are in gif format. Anyone have a clue as to why they are not?

KnifeEdge_2K1
06-28-2004, 11:16 AM
did u try converting to jpg?

DodgeNitroBIRM
06-28-2004, 11:23 AM
I might try that next. Okay .pdf doesn't work. Now I'll try jpg.

KnifeEdge_2K1
06-28-2004, 11:25 AM
you're giving canadians a bad name.

Surely there must be some 13 and under chat room you can go to in order to further your own ignorance.

This is a forum about automobiles, not a daycare for racists.

If you disagree, step back and take a look at what an ass you're making yourself out to be. Keep talking that trash- it only makes you look worse. You throw some unintelligible dirt around, and I see Americans defending themselves intelligently.

I hope for all our sakes you A) Grow up, B) Wise up, C) Leave the Forum, D) Get banned.

I know if I were a mod we wouldn't be having this conversation.

first im 16, second im not racist, third if ive been making such an ass outta myself talking smack, each and all of you could have just let it be and i woulda shut up, the fact is that by continuing in this argument you've all "lowered" yourself to my level or whatever the hell you want to call it. fact is the only person who's brought up facts to back up what they've been saying is dodge. as far as im concerned the rest of you have just said "knifeedge is an idiot" even though i've apologized and taken back most of the outragous comments ive said. yet people still keep bringing it up. im not perfect i admit it, i have a short fuse and blurt things out, but atleast i back up my accusations

lets recap what ive said
nascar is boring to watch (this is my personal opinion)
americans are idiots (i admit this is too generalized and i apologize to those who americans who arnt idiots, every race and country is bound to have the oddball who is below par)

feel free to add on, if i think that ive made a mistake or you give some credible evidence as to how and why im wrong

DodgeNitroBIRM
06-28-2004, 11:53 AM
ALRIGHT! IT FINALLY FRICKIN' WORKED!!!!!!!!!! Now for Watkins Glen.

Matra et Alpine
06-28-2004, 01:41 PM
do you know of any tracks in my area?
... seriously i aint jokin
i live in markham ontario
about 30 minutes north from downtown toronto

the closest thing we have to an actual track are ... well nothing
Shannonville's about 90miles East of you isn't it ??

Not sure aoubt facilities, but it does hosts a fair number of bike trackdays.
Sounds like a well-sorted and marshalled motorosport site though :)
http://www.shannonville.com/

KnifeEdge_2K1
06-28-2004, 02:25 PM
ALRIGHT! IT FINALLY FRICKIN' WORKED!!!!!!!!!! Now for Watkins Glen.

cool, see i may be arrogant but i aint blind, THIS is different
what about the other tracks?

KnifeEdge_2K1
06-28-2004, 02:28 PM
Shannonville's about 90miles East of you isn't it ??

Not sure aoubt facilities, but it does hosts a fair number of bike trackdays.
Sounds like a well-sorted and marshalled motorosport site though :)
http://www.shannonville.com/

can i bring a car?

KnifeEdge_2K1
06-28-2004, 02:29 PM
I might try that next. Okay .pdf doesn't work. Now I'll try jpg.

meh, the first 3 are still look very similar to me, the other 2 are much more different however expecially the last one

Matra et Alpine
06-28-2004, 05:21 PM
do you know of any tracks in my area?
... seriously i aint jokin
i live in markham ontario
about 30 minutes north from downtown toronto

the closest thing we have to an actual track are ... well nothing

Wow, how could I have forgotten one of the once great F1 and GT tracks.
We don't see any racing from there anymore, but it's still going strong according to the web page.

I cna't believe this isn't known to you.
http://www.mosport.com/
Bomanville, according to expedia.com it's 23 miles from you.

I think you need to go see some racing and learn about the sport and capabilities of your local tracks :)

Quiggs
06-28-2004, 06:53 PM
They still use Mosport for a lot of SpeedTV-style touring cars and I think ALMS still go there. CART did last time I checked.

DodgeNitroBIRM
06-28-2004, 08:53 PM
Here's a few more.

Infineon Raceway
Distance: 2mi
Road Course

Darlington Raceway
Banking/Turns: 25° / 23°
Distance: 1.366mi

Indianapolis Motor Speedway
Banking/Turns: 12°
Distance: 2.5mi

Richmond Int'l Raceway
Banking/Turns: 14°
Distance: .75mi

Ferrari Tifosi
06-28-2004, 09:20 PM
adressing my pervious remark about how all americans are stupid, i actually have something with which to back it up
.

Notice the ALL in that statement. I'm really not trying drag this arguement too far, but I feel I need to make a point. The fact is you can't say any country is filled with idiots. All and none are two words that should never be used when discussing a large group of people.

KnifeEdge_2K1
06-28-2004, 09:30 PM
Notice the ALL in that statement. I'm really not trying drag this arguement too far, but I feel I need to make a point. The fact is you can't say any country is filled with idiots. All and none are two words that should never be used when discussing a large group of people.

point taken

Ferrari Tifosi
06-28-2004, 09:34 PM
Great! I declare this debate officially over. :)

KnifeEdge_2K1
06-28-2004, 10:48 PM
so who won?

newayz ive looked up any local racetracks in my area, the only paved ones that arnt ovals are the shannonville tracks and the toronto motorsports park tracks

both are quite a distance from where i live and i think shannonville is a bike track not for cars. This is what i get for living in a country where trees outnumber people like a million to 1.

Matra et Alpine
06-29-2004, 12:58 AM
both are quite a distance from where i live
23 MILES to Mosport which used to be one of the GREAT trakc sin the world in the 70s !!
How close do you really need a track ???

Jeez, I drive 7 hours, 450 miles to Brands Hatch to go trackday :)
There AND the same back !!

Frankly if it was closer you'd be complaining about the traffic and the noise.

If you can't be motivated to drive the 23 miles ( according to expedia ) or the 90+ to the other track then take up ricing and stop BS'ing about racing :)


and i think shannonville is a bike track not for cars. This is what i get for living in a country where trees outnumber people like a million to 1.
No, it's what you get for being too lazy to look up when someone helps :)
According to their web page http://www.shannonville.com/ it does cars and has a race school as well as pay-per-lap trackdays for cars and bikes.

Sorry, but it's really annoying when someone asks a question, I looked up some of the old racing books I have to find a couple of tracks and folks don't even bother to do a simple web search on the info !!

Would you want me to come and drive on the track for you too ??

So heads-up to folks, ask for advice and I put effort in to get info from my knowledge/library and then don't put a wee bit of effort in to use it then in future I'll give out NEGATIVE rep. Bad hangover making me less of a doormat than usual :(

fpv_gtho
06-29-2004, 03:06 AM
Jeez, I drive 7 hours, 450 miles to Brands Hatch to go trackday :)
There AND the same back !!


This bit caught my attention :p

How far are you from Silverstone and Knockhill? I'm about 10 minutes from Eastern Creek raceway, about 30 minutes from Oran Park Raceway and probably close to 2 hours from Bathurst

whiteballz
06-29-2004, 03:32 AM
try V8 brutes for push and shove (more like phenoix missle attack) racing. aussies are great for attcking in corners :p

Matra et Alpine
06-29-2004, 03:33 AM
This bit caught my attention :p

How far are you from Silverstone and Knockhill? I'm about 10 minutes from Eastern Creek raceway, about 30 minutes from Oran Park Raceway and probably close to 2 hours from Bathurst
I'm in Scotland near Edinburgh.

So
- Knockhill is 20 miles, 20 minutes away.
- Crail 50 miles, 1 hour.
- Kames 55 miles, 1 hour.
- Monklands hill climb 15 miles, 15 mins
- Doune hill climb 40 miles, 1 hour
- Mount Stuart (private) 110 miles, 2 hours includigng ferry !!

The Scottish 'regulars' :)

Then we've got the longer travel :(

- Croft 190 miles 3 1/2 hours
- Donnington 300 miles 4 1/2 hours
- Oulton Park 250 miles 4 hours
- Snetterton 400 miles 6 1/2 hours
- Silverstone 350 miles 5 hours
- Brands Hatch 450 miles 6 1/2 hours
- 3 Sisters ( SuperMotad :) ) 200 miles 3 hours

Good site showing all the tracks in the UK at http://www.bmrc.co.uk/
( But for our US readers, when it says 'oval' it means Stock car short-track !!
The only big oval in the UK is Rockinghman )

One of the reasons the UK is a motorsport mecca.
Lots of tracks, lots of manufacturing, lots of teams, just NO bloody sponsorship :(

Matra et Alpine
06-29-2004, 03:34 AM
aussies are great for attcking in corners :p
The real reason is those monsters don't brake or turn in, so using someone on the outside is the fastest way round a corner :)

whiteballz
06-29-2004, 03:39 AM
not true! even the evo's and wrx's (Which have great handleing and brakes) have a good attack on each other now and then! (gtp series)

Matra et Alpine
06-29-2004, 03:42 AM
not true! even the evo's and wrx's (Which have great handleing and brakes) have a good attack on each other now and then! (gtp series)

:)

Just because sometimes you eat a salad doesn't make you a vegetarian :)


soooooo, just because gtp drivers will bang door handles doesn't mean V8s can brake or turn in !!!!

KnifeEdge_2K1
06-29-2004, 02:45 PM
23 MILES to Mosport which used to be one of the GREAT trakc sin the world in the 70s !!
How close do you really need a track ???

Jeez, I drive 7 hours, 450 miles to Brands Hatch to go trackday :)
There AND the same back !!

Frankly if it was closer you'd be complaining about the traffic and the noise.

If you can't be motivated to drive the 23 miles ( according to expedia ) or the 90+ to the other track then take up ricing and stop BS'ing about racing :)


No, it's what you get for being too lazy to look up when someone helps :)
According to their web page http://www.shannonville.com/ it does cars and has a race school as well as pay-per-lap trackdays for cars and bikes.

Sorry, but it's really annoying when someone asks a question, I looked up some of the old racing books I have to find a couple of tracks and folks don't even bother to do a simple web search on the info !!

Would you want me to come and drive on the track for you too ??

So heads-up to folks, ask for advice and I put effort in to get info from my knowledge/library and then don't put a wee bit of effort in to use it then in future I'll give out NEGATIVE rep. Bad hangover making me less of a doormat than usual :(

shannonville race school fact sheet says bring a street legal BIKE, i didnt find one thing that said cars

im pretty sure mosport is farther than 23 miles

from toronto its suppose to be a 90 minute drive

according to this site anyways http://bmwclub.ca/motorsport/tracks/mosport.htm

fpv_gtho
06-30-2004, 03:06 AM
not true! even the evo's and wrx's (Which have great handleing and brakes) have a good attack on each other now and then! (gtp series)


I dont know about great braking, they must have a higher than normal brake load going to the rear brakes, as around Adelaide if the AWD's didnt get all their braking over and done ith in a straight line before the corner, they usuallywent tail first into the armco. Something the RWD FPV GT's and HSV GTS's had all over them was their ability to brake into and through a corner. Of course, exiting the corner the tables turned

KnifeEdge_2K1
07-01-2004, 11:07 PM
I dont know about great braking, they must have a higher than normal brake load going to the rear brakes, as around Adelaide if the AWD's didnt get all their braking over and done ith in a straight line before the corner, they usuallywent tail first into the armco. Something the RWD FPV GT's and HSV GTS's had all over them was their ability to brake into and through a corner. Of course, exiting the corner the tables turned

who do awd cars get higher than normal brake load to the back?

Matra et Alpine
07-02-2004, 01:51 AM
who do awd cars get higher than normal brake load to the back?
They don't unless the driver has adjusted the bias to do that :)

In rallying you will change the bias to the rear on very loose gravel to make left-foot braking more effective at getting a scandinavian-flick going for a corner.

'ordinary' street cars with big front engine and RWD will have most bias to the front as the rear's have limited braking grip. FWDs will put it almost all forward to avoid the classic Mini racing image of up on 2 wheels ( the fronts! )

If you explain what you think is 'normal' I can give the full explanation of why it's different :)

KnifeEdge_2K1
07-02-2004, 10:20 AM
i dunno what would be normal, i seriously dont thats why i asked my question but i assume it would be in the area of 60/40 or 70/30

fpv_gtho
07-02-2004, 05:59 PM
who do awd cars get higher than normal brake load to the back?


its just what i think after seeing the cars swap ends by trying to brake through a corner. as matra said the cars would be more rear biased for particular rally conditions, and as its the EVO's and STI's that comply, they'd surely be setup to go straight into Group N type rallying i would say

Falcon500
07-04-2004, 06:11 AM
Well i live about an hour and a half drive From wakefieldpark and attend trackdays and intend on going for konica v8 supercar rounds soon enough...i also have fairburn park (hillclimb track) not that far away.....We used to be fairly spoilt in canberra (for a relativly small area 300,000 odd people) haveing Fraser park (Sprint car track) and an 1/8th mile dragstrip....but fraser park had its fences damaged by some arseholes who decided they wanted in...and the 1/8 was closed down by the goverment....and we also had the v8 super cars raceing around the streets of canberra when the street circut was still going.....but the goverment has put aside funding for a proper 1/4 strip and hopfully will ensure the life of fairburn park...also the pine forrests where we hold the rally of canberra are often unused and some of my brothers mates where reputed to ripping their toranas through it occasionally....
Also the sydney tracks (oran park and eastern creek) are only a 3 hour drive away from me and phillip island (matra yiou should know this one ;) ) is about the same distance and a short ferry ride away...its also home to one of australias best motorsport museums.....

I challange matra to find any tracks i dont know about :) im not saying i know themall im just wondering if he could find anymore lol ive tryed looking once or twice and all i found out about was fairburns extensive bike raceing history :rolleyes:

Matra et Alpine
07-04-2004, 08:35 AM
I challange matra to find any tracks i dont know about :) im not saying i know themall im just wondering if he could find anymore lol ive tryed looking once or twice and all i found out about was fairburns extensive bike raceing history :rolleyes:
Not going to step up to that challenge a 'strating loser' :)
But thanks for giving me a great list to consider in a future business/holiday trip :)
Hope you spend the time and money to go engjoy them as much as possible.
If you don't they WILL disappear :(