PDA

View Full Version : V8 supercars vs BTTC and DTM



whiteballz
07-10-2004, 12:01 AM
what are the usual specs for each of these race classes? im interested to see which series has the fastest and best cars.

i havent seen much of the DTM or BTTC series...

(is the BTTC like TOCA?)

fpv_gtho
07-10-2004, 12:54 AM
V8 Supercars is alot like DTM i believe, but DTM use smaller, medium sized cars and is open to several manufacturers unlike the Ford vs Holden V8 Supercars. BTCC and TOCA i have ablsolutely no idea about except that theyre touring cars :p I saw a race once and they had like 3 classes running

fpv_gtho
07-10-2004, 01:00 AM
Ford Falcon V8 Supercar specifications:

http://www.v8supercars.com.au/technical/rules/2004update/AVESCO_FordBAFalcon.pdf

Holden Commodore V8 Supercar specifications:

http://www.v8supercars.com.au/technical/rules/2004update/AVESCO_HoldenVYCommodore.pdf

2004 V8 Supercar Championship Series Race Format and Points Format:

http://www.v8supercars.com.au/technical/rules/2004update/AVESCO_ChampSeriesPoints.pdf

fpv_gtho
07-10-2004, 01:10 AM
As far as governing bodies go, V8 Supercars is controlled by 3 organisations.

The Confederate of Australian Motorsports (CAMS) controls all motorsports in Australia, and takes care of legal matters like fines and appeals.

The Touring Car Entrants Group of Australia (TEGA) controls all touring car series in Australia, going from things like V8 Supercars to GT-Performance. I'm not sure if they have a say in Historic Touring Cars though. It handles technical rules of V8 Supercars and also features a TEGA technical board, comprising of team officials from both For and Holden camps. It acts as an interface between the teams, drivers and officials.

The Australian Vee Eight Supercar Company (AVESCO) sets out the individual rules and schedule of the V8 Supercars, such as the race calender, publicity and merchandising etc.

Benz_Boy_1
07-10-2004, 02:54 AM
what are the usual specs for each of these race classes? im interested to see which series has the fastest and best cars.

i havent seen much of the DTM or BTTC series...

(is the BTTC like TOCA?)
yeah sorta, but have 3 classes, but the top class (dunno the name) is the one on toca

DasModell
07-10-2004, 03:57 AM
DTM cars . V8 4.0l +400BHP .. standard ZF gearbox . standard brakes etc
BTCC . 2 or 4 doors cars .. 2L engines . aprox 270-280 BHP .1230 kg .. i think

fpv_gtho
07-10-2004, 04:00 AM
would i be right in saying DTM and BTCC are governed by the FIA?

motorsportnerd
07-10-2004, 08:00 AM
DTM - DTM is organised by the DMSB (Deutscher Motor Sport Bund e.V.). The DMSB DTM commission is responsible for the regulations, the ITR (Internationale Tourenwagen Rennen e.V.) for organisation and marketing of the series.
The ADAC controls all motorsport in Germany. Germany's ADAC (which is the German version of the FIA or CAMS). The DTM cars would be the fastest cars around any given racetrack due to much lighter weight than V8 Supercars and therefore better power to weight. The DTM cars also have much better aerodynamices than a V8 Supercar. Engines are 4.0 litre V8s with around 470-500 bhp. Minimum weight is 1050kg. To qualify a minimum of 10,000 road cars must have been built. The cars must be rear wheel drive, though (as in the case of the Audi A4), they can be converted from front or all wheel drive to rear drive. The tyres, brakes, gearbox and electronics are standard components from exclusive suppliers. Electronic driver aids are prohibited. Cars currently competing are Audi A4, Opel Vectra, Mercedes C-Class, Opel Astra Coupe and Mercedes CLK. Audi, Opel and Mercedes all run full factory teams with at least 6 cars each.

BTCC is for 2.0 litre touring cars. Classes are for BTC Touring and FIA Super 2000 cars. Both classes are for 2.0 litre cars. Engines can have a maximum of 6 clyinders. BTC cars have about 280 bhp. Super 2000 cars about 260 bhp. BTC cars weigh about 1250 kg. Super 2000 cars about 1150 kg. Cars can be front wheel drive or rear wheel drive. Gearboxes are 6-speed sequential for the BTC and 5-speed sequential for the Super 2000 cars.
Cars competing currently in the BTC Touring Class are Vauxhall Astra Coupe, MG ZS, Honda Civic Type R, Proton Impain, Peugeot 306, Peugeot 407. Cars competing in the Super 2000 class are Seat Toledo and Alfa 156.
Full manufacturer teams are run by Vauxhall, Proton and Seat.

Then there is the European Touring Car Championship. This is for 2.0 litre FIA Super 2000 cars. Cars involved are Alfa Romeo 156, BMW 320, Honda Accord Euro and Civic Type R, Seat Toledo, Peugeot 307, Ford Focus, Skoda Octavia and Volvo S60.
Manufacturers are Alfa Romeo, BMW, Honda, Seat, Skoda and Seat.

V8 Supercars are explained in FPV's links.

So a rough comparison:
DTM - 470 bhp/1050 kg.
V8 Supercar - 650 bhp/1350 kg.
BTC Touring - 280 bhp/1250 kg.
Super 2000 - 260 bhp/1150 kg.

Of the series, DTMs are the fastest, V8 Supercars probably the most visually exciting, BTCC has the most variety and ETCC has the most manufacturers involved.

The V8 Supercar Series currently has the closest fields (the 32 car field is seperated by less than 1 second in every race) and is currently recognised as the best Touring Car Championship in the world. The DTM would be a close second. The ETCC becomes the WTCC next year and is building support quickly. The BTCC used to be the best series in the 90s, but is now a shadow of its former self. It is gradually rebuilding.

So, there is a summary of the four main touring car championships in the world at the moment.

Official websites:
BTCC - www.toca-tour.co.uk
DTM - www.dtm.de
ETCC - www.eurostc.com

Photos attached are Jean Alesi's 2004 DTM Mercedes, the start of the recent BTCC and ETCC rounds (to tell the difference, BMWs and Alfas dominate the ETCC picture and a Seat and Vauxhalls the BTCC) and Paul Radisich's Falcon V8 Supercar

fpv_gtho
07-10-2004, 08:16 AM
The DTM's remind me alot of the Group C Falcons and Commodores from the early 80's with their wide body kits

escort mexico
07-15-2004, 09:06 PM
the only difference is that DTM BTCC have much better quality of racing than the V8's do

forza_autodelta
02-26-2005, 03:14 AM
you could see that there isn't any battle in DTM and many in V8 and BTCC(quite limited in power with the 2L)

Spastik_Roach
02-26-2005, 04:30 AM
I love the BTCC because its great seeing the repmobiles on steroids battle it out. DTM is also cool and ofcourse the fantastic V8 Supercars.


Heres a great website for history on BTCC cars...

http://freespace.virgin.net/tjl.thegrove/toyotahistory.htm

http://freespace.virgin.net/tjl.thegrove/btcchome.htm

lukeh
02-26-2005, 06:19 AM
by the looks the dtm race cars look much more advanced especially with all the aerodynamics and they have moved all the weight towards the rear. you can see the driver is pretty much sitting in the back seat and the engine is also very far back. but it comes down to the rules maybe btcc is restricted to its engine capicity and output and its weight.

SlickHolden
02-26-2005, 09:27 AM
V8 supercars are very close in looks to the on road car. But thats it both holden and ford use bigger engines in there road cars 5.4Lt and 5.7Lt. but both run 5.0Lt's in the supercar series.

motorsportnerd
02-26-2005, 03:31 PM
I love the BTCC because its great seeing the repmobiles on steroids battle it out. DTM is also cool and ofcourse the fantastic V8 Supercars.


Heres a great website for history on BTCC cars...

http://freespace.virgin.net/tjl.thegrove/toyotahistory.htm

http://freespace.virgin.net/tjl.thegrove/btcchome.htm


Good find there Spastik. They are very good websites.

my porsche
02-26-2005, 03:39 PM
DTM hands down, just my style of cars

Coventrysucks
02-26-2005, 04:00 PM
The BTCC's a bit rubbish, especially as all the manufacturers are always threatening to pull out.

There are some really top-notch track battles sometimes though.

I think that if the same sort of racing can be achieved by the proposed SCV8 championship it will be even more fun.

The cars are almost silhouette, but they keep the manufacturer's original wheelbase measurements for the different cars, big V8s and rearwheel drive.

fpv_gtho
02-26-2005, 11:16 PM
Wheelbase and overhangs are just a couple of things that AVESCO are thinking about controlling for parity now though, although the cars still have the original chassis and are actually made on the same production lines as the Falcons and Commodores on the roads.

group c n b man
10-11-2009, 11:20 AM
The BTCC cars are very impressive to watch with those fantastic battles on track and naughty driving manners. The cars themselves may be underpowered but the go and sound faster than they really are. BTCC cars are actually as fast as the porsche GT3 cup cars around some tracks (atleast they were at knockhill this year) despite having far less power, displacement etc. Touring cars make up on GT cars in corners because of the suspension, chassis etc. DTM cars are the fasted type of closed wheel racer behind LMP cars. That says it all.

henk4
10-11-2009, 11:30 AM
today I watched part of the Bathurst 500 on Motors TV. Apart from the different paint jobs, I had the impression that I was looking at a race between 10 year old Toyota Carinas. The resemblence is actually striking....
The race itself was nice to watch, especially during the rain intermezzo.

LeonOfTheDead
10-11-2009, 12:57 PM
today I watched part of the Bathurst 500 on Motors TV. Apart from the different paint jobs, I had the impression that I was looking at a race between 10 year old Toyota Carinas. The resemblence is actually striking....
The race itself was nice to watch, especially during the rain intermezzo.

It was interested indeed, wouldn't mind those cars in some European tracks.

nota
10-11-2009, 01:49 PM
nice vintage pic of 1969 Bathurst 500 (mile) :cool:

a couple of Holden Monaro GTS 350 sandwiched between two Falcon GT-HO (Phase 1), about to overwhelm a Cooper S on the climb into the Cutting

whiteballz
10-11-2009, 03:35 PM
I quite enjoyed the bathurst race on sunday. Some good racing and some interesting faults.

pimento
10-11-2009, 03:47 PM
I watched about five laps in the middle of it before my friend and I started playing Forza 2. Hopefully Bathurst will end up as a DLC track for Forza 3, the devs have stated that they wanted to do it but didn't have the time/resources.

clutch-monkey
10-11-2009, 03:52 PM
i would like to see more manufacturers in ATCC, like how it was back in the day. not straight BTCC/DTM cars, but those manufacturers building cars to ATCC spec.

pimento
10-11-2009, 07:18 PM
I think ATCC would be more likely to have a bigger field if they picked an internationally recognised spec to use. Maybe it should be one that Ford and Holden could build to if they wanted.

fpv_gtho
10-12-2009, 09:19 AM
The only international spec out there is S2000 though, and there wouldnt be much fan support for such a move. Theres talk of changing the current formula around 2011-2012 but that would be to more of a standard chassis/floorplan setup where any manufacturer can use the top hat of their intended model and have the competitive chassis layout.

pimento
10-12-2009, 03:39 PM
The only international spec out there is S2000 though, and there wouldnt be much fan support for such a move. Theres talk of changing the current formula around 2011-2012 but that would be to more of a standard chassis/floorplan setup where any manufacturer can use the top hat of their intended model and have the competitive chassis layout.

So.. nascar then. Shame..

motorsportnerd
10-14-2009, 04:08 AM
Don't worry. Apparently the spec chassis idea (a la Nascar) has been ruled out. They want to keep V8 engines, four opening doors and keep the cost of constructing the cars below $250,000 (V8 cars far away from ordinary motors (http://news.brisbanetimes.com.au/breaking-news-sport/v8-cars-far-away-from-ordinary-motors-20091010-gra8.html)).

There have even been rumours or suggestions that the series could move from Commodores and Falcons to Holden Cruze and Ford Focus size cars. This would only happen if Holden started to sell more Cruzes than they do Commodores.

fpv_gtho
10-14-2009, 05:20 AM
Why does everyone always jump straight to NASCAR when spec chassis are mentioned?

I think more than likely theyre going to go to a spaceframe type chassis, and move away from the current system of chopping the stock chassis to fit a predetermined silhouette.

kingofthering
10-14-2009, 08:10 AM
Why does everyone always jump straight to NASCAR when spec chassis are mentioned?


NASCAR is a series where the cars quickly went from bone-stock with a rollcage to something resembling the stock model in name only.

fpv_gtho
10-14-2009, 10:49 PM
But theyre not the only ones, that being my point. DTM are running the same formula but to a different degree. Theres other club level categories like Sports Sedans that run fake bodies on tubular chassis as well.

clutch-monkey
10-15-2009, 02:06 AM
yeah i much prefer the race cars to have something in common with the road cars they supposedly resemble, cardboard cutout racing gets a bit old

motorsportnerd
10-15-2009, 04:32 AM
I would prefer a production based formula as well - which incidentally is what V8 Supercars started out as. Back in 1993 when it replaced Group A, the formula was basically a continuation of Group A in terms of body, chassis, suspension, but with engines more suited to racing than modified production engines and front and rear wings. Since then the formula has changed somewhat to the point that the only production items on the cars are the roof and front doors.
However, one problem with a production based formula is that costs can get out of hand if manufacturers have to spend millions building road cars that can be successfully translated to the track. The fabulous Nissan Skyline GT-R from 1990-92 is one such example.
The current WTCC Super 2000 formula is production based and the cars are even more expensive to build and run than V8 Supercars. Huge development budgets are spent by BMW, Chevrolet and Seat to make incremental gains and ensure that the production based parts aren't too fragile.
So, some sort of mix of production (certainly bodies, maybe floorplan and chassis) and race parts (long life race engines, common suspension, control gearbox, etc).
To be honest, V8 Supercar in its current format is still very successful. The racing is still very close (the entire field tends to qualify within a 1 second on most tracks) and the cars can even pass.
All they rule makers have to do tweak the current rules. One thing they need to avoid is to make very expensive and competitive cars obsolete over night. So the current cars will need to be able to continue to race under the new rules.
I expect that what will happen is that the series will be opened up to all manufacturers. Those that don't have suitable RWD chassis will be allowed to convert from AWD (such as Audi) or FWD (such as the Nissan Maxima) to RWD. Either that or manufacturers may have the choice of using their own floorplan within set parameters OR using a spec chassis and dropping the body work of their model over the top.
Also, I expect that manufacturers will have the choice of using an off the shelf V8 race engine or developing their own engine within set parameters. I wouldn't be surprised if a smaller Quad Cam V8 either replaces or supplements the current 5.0-litre OHV V8 engines.
I would also expect that series will continue to be for large 4-door sedans.
Should the current rules be retained and tweaked, it would mean that the current Commodore VE and Falcon FG race cars could continue to be raced alongside the new generation cars.
I would expect most of the the following cars/body shells would be eligible: Holden Commodore VE/VF, Ford Falcon FG, Ford Mondeo, Chrysler 300C, Audi A6, BMW 5-series, Alfa Romeo 159, Honda Accord (the larger V6 body shape), Honda Legend, Nissan Maxima, Hyundai Genesis, Mazda6, Mercedes-Benz E-Class, Peugeot 607, Subaru Liberty/Legacy, Toyota Aurion/Camry, Lexus GS, Volvo S60, Citroen C6, Jaguar XF.
I would assume that the road version of any car that races in the series would have to be available for sale to the Australian public.

As to how many manufacturers would actually join Ford & Holden is anyone's guess. I suspect BMW and Nissan would be most likely considering their long history of involvement in Australian motorsport.

group c n b man
10-15-2009, 03:33 PM
Seems like there is no real way to keep costs in check. It's never occurred to me that, with a production based formula, the makers still need to spend all that money just to ensure than the production based parts are strong enough. However purpose built cars are still more expensive. A S2000 car costs about £250,000. A WRC car costs about £500,000. A LMP car costs £1,000,000 or more. A F1 car costs more still. As Tim Harvey says "Racing will always consume as much money as you can throw at it"