Fastest round a track?

[VtecMini]

This might sound like a stupid question, but as I see it 0-60 times and top speeds are all well and good, how well that interprets into a track speed is never really clear though, so does anyone know which production car is "generally" thought to be fastest round a track?

I say "generally" cos obviously every track is different.

I'm lead to believe that the Radical SR3 holds the Nordschleife lap record, but I'm guessing that wasn't in road trim.

I realise that the Mclaren F1 is still said to be the fastest car in the world, but that's top speed isn't it?

My money would probably be on either the Enzo or the latest Koenigsegg.

Would anyone care to shed some light?

[Matra et Alpine]

This might sound like a stupid question, but as I see it 0-60 times and top speeds are all well and good, how well that interprets into a track speed is never really clear though, so does anyone know which production car is "generally" thought to be fastest round a track?
Problem is what track ?

Donnington is a different case to Kaimes ( Scottish sprint track ).
You'd struggle with a lightweight small engine on Kramer and you'd barely get a Viper round the hapirpin at Kaimes ( might tale a 3-point turn :) )


I say "generally" cos obviously every track is different.
The range is huge, so I think we'd need to pick a track.
Nordschlieffe is unliek ANY modeeern track. Nowhere has long runs anymore :(


I'm lead to believe that the Radical SR3 holds the Nordschleife lap record, but I'm guessing that wasn't in road trim.
Radicals delivered with the 'track' option can be returned to road with the release of 4 bolts and turn up the adjustable shocks :)
Most folks buy the 'race' suspenion. The only difference is the anti-roll bars.
Adjusted to their softest, you get the road car.
It's not the same as other 'Nordschlieffe specials' .


My money would probably be on either the Enzo or the latest Koenigsegg.
Traction control on or off ??

Watch Top Gear. The "STIG" takes them all out on the TG track which has a reasonable mix of speed and twisty. IIRC Porsche is top just now - though there is debate that Stig MkII is 'better' :)


Would anyone care to shed some light?

Sorry about the "dark corner" over the track choice :)

[VtecMini]

Yeah. The track thing bothered me heavily whilst I was contemplating the post. Silverstone currently seems lto keep coming to mind. Can't think why though... :rolleyes:

I was thinking that the TG track is a good benchmark, but with the different stigs, it's not really as scientific as it could be.

My favourite track (only from a spectators point of view unfortunately. Haven't had the chance to get out and do the experience in person. Yet. :)) is probably Spa francorchamps, maybe Mugello actually. I reckon Mugello would be quite a good benchmarker, due to it's nice mix of turns. Though I do love Donington, cos it's close and I've actually been there. Hell, I'm too indecisive.

Then again, Le Mans is probably the most famous in the world, would that be therefore better?

[Matra et Alpine]

Yeah. The track thing bothered me heavily whilst I was contemplating the post. Silverstone currently seems lto keep coming to mind. Can't think why though... :rolleyes:

I was thinking that the TG track is a good benchmark, but with the different stigs, it's not really as scientific as it could be.
But without at least the choice of only 2 drivers it will become much harder to use facts. Le Mans for example is 90+ different drivers :) see alter.


My favourite track (only from a spectators point of view unfortunately.
Brands Hatch GP circuit. :drooling homer noises:
Not sure since they neutered Dingle Dell though :(

love Donington, cos it's close and I've actually been there. Hell, I'm too indecisive.
Donningon nice :)
Too many tracks - aaaaaaaaaaaarg !!!!!!!!!!!

Then again, Le Mans is probably the most famous in the world, would that be therefore better?
Tracks wth long straights will always favour the big-is-best solution.
Tracks with very tight twisties will always favoru the handling-uber-alles solution.
We'll never reach agreement on track, so chance of picking a car is slim :)

[R34GTR]

I do think Stig MKII is better than the old one, They should have the new Stig race all of the other cars again 'cause the Murcielago beat the koenigsegg and in theory the koenigsegg beats the pants of the murcielago.

[Homem de Gelo]

In a wide enough track with enough straights and fast corners, it should be very hard to find someone to beat the Enzo. However, there are only like a million variables to be considered involving the cars, drivers, track and weather conditions.

What I do beleive is that, once you reach a certain performance platform, the driver starts to make a huge difference and in the end the best driver will always win.

[taz_rocks_miami]

Hi, here is the latest list of the Stig's (Top Gear) lap times:

* Mercedes-Mclaren SLR - 1.20.9
* Ferrari 360 CS - 1.22.3
* Porsche 911 GT3 RS - 1.22.3
* Lamborghini Murcielago - 1.23.7
* Pagani Zonda - 1.23.8
* Koenigsegg - 1.23.9
* Noble M12 GTO-3 - 1.25.0
* Lamborghini Gallardo - 1.25.8
* Lotus Exige - 1.26.4
* Porsche 911 GT3 - 1.27.2
* TVR T350c - 1.27.5
* BMW M3 CSL - 1.28.0
* MG SV - 1.28.6
* Mitsubishi Lancer Evo VIII - 1.28.9
* Alpina Roadster (Z8) - 1.29.0
* Subaru Impreza STi - 1.30.1
* Aston Martin DB7 GT - 1.30.4
* Audi S4 - 1.30.9
* Porsche 911 Turbo - 1.31.0
* Vauxhall VX220 Turbo - 1.31.3
* Honda NSX Type R - 1.31.6
* BMW M3 - 1.31.8
* Nissan 350Z - 1.31.8
* Mazda RX-8 - 1.31.8
* Ford Focus RS - 1.32.2
* Lotus Esprit V8 - 1.32.5
* Audi TT V6 - 1.32.7
* Noble M12 - 1.33.1
* Mercedes SL55 AMG - 1.33.2
* VW Golf R32 - 1.33.2
* Volvo S60R - 1.35.0
* Ferrari 575 - 1.35.2
* Alfa Romeo 147 GTA - 1.35.6
* Lotus Elise - 1.35.6
* Aston Martin Vanquish - 1.36.2
* Renault Clio V6 - 1.36.2
* Honda Civic Type R - 1.36.5
* Saab 9-5 HOT Aero - 1.37.9
* Maserati Coupe - 1.38.0
* Bowler Wildcat - 1.39.4
* Bentley Arnarge - 1.40.8
* Range Rover overfinch - 1.44.0

Taz.

[Niko_Fx]

Wow That's crazy list.

RX8 faster than an SL55 AMG?? NEVER!!

Audi S4 faster than Ferrari 575??

Civic Type R has only 1 sec difference with Ferrari 575??

Golf R32 as fast as Mercedes SL55 AMG?? (Golf R32's 0-60 Time is about 6 secs, while the SL55 is less than 5.)



I know that handling has a lot to do with it, but come on? How is this possible? Anybody care to explain? :confused:

Thanks for the list Taz.

[Matra et Alpine]

Wow That's crazy list.
....
I know that handling has a lot to do with it, but come on? How is this possible? Anybody care to explain? :confused:

Some of them are wet track :)

But you can't beat handling on a twisty circuit. it has a couple of corners that are VERY revealling on the handling and overal performance. Catch a Top Gear episode anytime :)

oh and then there's weight :) :)

Where did you get the list taz ? The show list has wet and damp marked on the results.
Also, some of the newer times ssuggest that the new 'stig' is a faster driver than the previous one - McCarthy.

[Niko_Fx]

Some of them are wet track :)

But you can't beat handling on a twisty circuit. it has a couple of corners that are VERY revealling on the handling and overal performance. Catch a Top Gear episode anytime :)

oh and then there's weight :) :)

Where did you get the list taz ? The show list has wet and damp marked on the results.
Also, some of the newer times ssuggest that the new 'stig' is a faster driver than the previous one - McCarthy.

Yeah I've seen a couple of episodes and have seen the track. I still think that the times are crazy. Unbelievable how handling can dominate over such accelerating differences.

[Karrmann]

jsut to answer your question, the McLaren does 240. :)

[Matra et Alpine]

Yeah I've seen a couple of episodes and have seen the track. I still think that the times are crazy. Unbelievable how handling can dominate over such accelerating differences.
I do keep trying to explain it :)

[Niko_Fx]

I do keep trying to explain it :)


I know... hehe.. Specially when comparing Europeans and American cars.

Well, at least now I know it :)

You Go Peter!!

[taz_rocks_miami]

You're welcome guys, here is the link for the lap times: Top Gear Lap Times (http://www.topgear.com/content/misc/TV/lap_times/). I would guess that at least half of the times posted are corrected because they ran on a wet track. Top Gear says that the general time difference between dry and wet laps is 4 seconds.

Taz.

[DasModell]

Yeah I've seen a couple of episodes and have seen the track. I still think that the times are crazy. Unbelievable how handling can dominate over such accelerating differences.

slow in . fast out . if you have a greater speed exting the corner . even if you accelerate a little slower . you can reach probably same top speed in the same time :D .. and so . the corner is where the diference is made :D

[Ferrari Tifosi]

Wow, those are some pretty crazy times, but obviously the fact of wet or dry makes those times not what they seem.

[Coventrysucks]

The Radical SR3 did the Top Gear lap in 1:15

On its first and only flying lap, the SR3 Turbo beat the Nurburgring Nordschleife record by 13 seconds. (7min 19s)

I think that the SR3 Turbo would be difficult to beat on most tracks, unless it was something like Avus, or an oval :rolleyes:

SR3 Turbo stats:
4 cyl 1500cc
330bhp @ 9000rpm
220 lb ft @ 7000rpm
600bhp/ton
170mph (est)
0-60 3.1 (est)
£54,050

evo TCOTY 2004 Bedford Autodrome lap times
Ferrari 360 CS (didn't run due to noise restrictions)
Renault Clio 182 88.75s
Lotus Elise 111R 82.80s
Vauhall VXR220 82.05s (limited running due to noise restrictions)
Deronda F400 81.85s (prototype)
Lotus Exige S2 81.75s
Caterham R500 Evo 77.40s (set up for the Autocar 0-100-0 test, not corners)
Grinnall Scorpion IV 77.40s
Porsche 911 GT3 RS 76.80s
Noble M400 76.50s
Ariel Atom 275 75.30s
Radical SR4 71.55s
Jaguar JP1 Evo 67.30s (Cosworth fettled, bigger brakes, wider track)
Radical SR3 Turbo 65.70s

:)

[sparkyburroughs]

The radical SR3 had road tyres and was in road trim. I know several cars that are preparing to break this in 2006

[KnifeEdge_2K1]

i personally like tsukuba, laguna seca, and suzuka

the top gear times to me are kinda wierd cuz there isnt really a marked boundary, in many episodes you can see the stig either plow out on the hammer head or go off the "track" on some of the less famous corners

i find it really hard to believe some of the lap times on that track though, like how an nsx r lost to an M3 CSL when the nsx r demolished it on motegi for example

[early93viper]

I agree with most of the posts here it would depend on a lot of things:

Driving style (A Miata will have a completely different line and driving style than a Viper)
Track Conditions (hell an STI might be able to be faster than an ENZO on a wet enough day)
Track (Hell just gearing of a car will make a huge difference from track to track)

I have tracked my Viper a lot and have seen how important the driver is to fast track times. Much more important than the car.

[early93viper]

Yeah I've seen a couple of episodes and have seen the track. I still think that the times are crazy. Unbelievable how handling can dominate over such accelerating differences.

Funny, I always here how handling is more important than acceleration. I am at the track a lot and just don't see it. Not saying it isn't a big consideration but HP and TQ mean A LOT at the track. Even when I go to the autocross track (very technical, very tight) you can see how HP and TQ play such a huge roll.

Obviously you need a mix of both. A high HP car with crappy handling isn't going to yield fast lap times. Just like an incredible handling low HP car isn't going to yield fast lap times.

With that said given the choice between a High HP mediocre handling car and an Incredible Handling Mediocre HP car on most roadcourses I would chouse the High HP car and most racers would agree.

[KnifeEdge_2K1]

Funny, I always here how handling is more important than acceleration. I am at the track a lot and just don't see it. Not saying it isn't a big consideration but HP and TQ mean A LOT at the track. Even when I go to the autocross track (very technical, very tight) you can see how HP and TQ play such a huge roll.

Obviously you need a mix of both. A high HP car with crappy handling isn't going to yield fast lap times. Just like an incredible handling low HP car isn't going to yield fast lap times.

With that said given the choice between a High HP mediocre handling car and an Incredible Handling Mediocre HP car on most roadcourses I would chouse the High HP car and most racers would agree.

thats because the limit of regular drivers are below that of the limits of most cars, when you throw good drivers into the mix it's different, then when you through REALLY good drivers into the mix it gets different again

any idiot can step on the gas but it takes a certain breed to be able to tackle the corner correctly, from finding the right braking point, getting to the apex and controlling the car during acceleration from there, it all sounds really easy but in practice it isnt

[2ndclasscitizen]

i personally like tsukuba, laguna seca, and suzuka

the top gear times to me are kinda wierd cuz there isnt really a marked boundary, in many episodes you can see the stig either plow out on the hammer head or go off the "track" on some of the less famous corners

i find it really hard to believe some of the lap times on that track though, like how an nsx r lost to an M3 CSL when the nsx r demolished it on motegi for example
The thing is, some wet times don't have it written down on their board, and early on, they used to spread water on a few of the corners. I think the CSL ran after they stopped that. I'm pretty sure the NSX-R was in the wet

[early93viper]

thats because the limit of regular drivers are below that of the limits of most cars, when you throw good drivers into the mix it's different, then when you through REALLY good drivers into the mix it gets different again

any idiot can step on the gas but it takes a certain breed to be able to tackle the corner correctly, from finding the right braking point, getting to the apex and controlling the car during acceleration from there, it all sounds really easy but in practice it isnt

True the limit of regular drivers are below that of most cars.

It is a lot easier to get a Miata, Elise, MR2 around a track than a Corvette, Viper, or TVR. Because of the slower pace, and more forgiving handling. Finesse is need to control higher HP cars and experience is the best teacher.

Any Idiot can just step on the gas but if you try to do that in a high HP car you will find yourself spinning in a corner. Throttle control is a big factor. One needs to feather the throttle threw a corner balancing out the car. Keeping it at the limits of adhesion without pushing it to snap oversteer.

[KnifeEdge_2K1]

yeah, that was kinda implied man

[MrKipling]

Nearly every racing driver I've spoken or interviewed to (and that's a lot - James Thompson, Jason Plato, Tim Sugden, Martin Rowe for example) all reckon throttle control is what really makes the difference between good and fantastic drivers.

Next time you watch the F1 listen to the difference between Mark Webber and Kimi Raikkonen's engines exitting slow corners, and you'll see (hear!) what I mean.

[Markie Boy]

Those top gear times are a little old the Zonda F is at the top with 1min 18.4 but clarkson says the veyron will get a better time if Bugatti let them put their car on their track.

[Markie Boy]

Does anyone have a Nordschlieffe best lap times list?

[Rockefella]

Next time you watch the F1 listen to the difference between Mark Webber and Kimi Raikkonen's engines exitting slow corners, and you'll see (hear!) what I mean.
Go on.. I haven't really noticed Webber's style compared to the Drunk Finn's.