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View Full Version : The backdoors in the Imprezas and Lancers



d-quik
07-11-2004, 08:51 PM
this might seem like a stupid question but do the backdoors of the race cars (impreza and lancer evo) that subaru and mitsubishi use in the WRC championships open? or are they just there for show

silverhawk
07-11-2004, 08:58 PM
i dont think that they open. the normal lancer & impreza are 4 door sedans not 2-door coupes so i guess they seal the doors so that they dont open during a race.

johnnyperl
07-11-2004, 09:14 PM
yes they do open!

cp01ae
07-11-2004, 09:18 PM
Sure, why wouldn't they open?

foto_choppa
07-12-2004, 12:10 AM
yes, they do, i have seen them open in a few pics

Matra et Alpine
07-12-2004, 03:50 AM
Yes they do open.
WRC can't be compared to NASCAR. In NASCAR you can do ANYTHING you want to the chassis and body as long as it fits the shape.
In WRC they are liminted to strengthening and fitting roll cages to the cars.
The 4 door is best in WRC as weight is NOT an issue, so they don't need to make the shell ultra light.
So the 4 door starts out substantially stronger due to the extra pillar strength in the original shells.

d-quik
07-12-2004, 08:09 AM
can you explain how 4 doors are better in n00b language for me :(

Matra et Alpine
07-12-2004, 08:59 AM
can you explain how 4 doors are better in n00b language for me :(
Yep.
So I'm assuming I can't call them A-pillar, B-pillar etc :(

OK, in a 2-door the roof has 4 main structures.
Each front pillar and the rear pillar ( tho' this is sometimes just the centre pillar and NO rear.

In a 4 door, to be able to support the rear doors the central pillar on the side HAS to be strong enough to hold the rear doors and survive impact.

So there are 6 main structures.
Each front pillar, each centre pillar and each rear pillar.
The Centre pillar is usually carrid ACROSS the roof to enhance the safety of the passenger cell, so the chssis has 3 'hoops' which provide for excellent torsional rigidity.

With a shell less likely to twist the car has a more stable platform for the suspension to work from.

Does that help ? Anymore will take diagrams :(

UK CARS
07-12-2004, 09:21 AM
When i did ministox i welded all the doors, for obvious reasons. pain getting in and out though. :)

Matra et Alpine
07-12-2004, 09:33 AM
When i did ministox i welded all the doors, for obvious reasons. pain getting in and out though. :)
Can't do that in rallying.
But I could believe it in stocks. ANything goes there.
Sometimes I think the drivers have their brains welded shut too :)

d-quik
07-12-2004, 11:29 AM
wait wait..... so if theres two cars that are the same (ie: accord coupe and accord sedan) the sedan will actually handle better because the middle pillar adds ridgitity? but wouldnt the added weight (from the doors and pillars) take away preformance :confused:

anyways, would you rather have an accord sedan or accord coupe

Matra et Alpine
07-12-2004, 12:19 PM
wait wait..... so if theres two cars that are the same (ie: accord coupe and accord sedan) the sedan will actually handle better because the middle pillar adds ridgitity? but wouldnt the added weight (from the doors and pillars) take away preformance :confused:
Rmember I said at the start that WRC cars don't have a problem keeping to minimum weight, so the 'extra' isn't an issue :)

anyways, would you rather have an accord sedan or accord coupe
Rally teams want to win, they don't give a toss what it looks like.

Peugeot WRC ar this years proof :)

d-quik
07-12-2004, 12:24 PM
Rmember I said at the start that WRC cars don't have a problem keeping to minimum weight, so the 'extra' isn't an issue :)what i meant was wouldnt the extra weight make the car less responsive?

Matra et Alpine
07-12-2004, 12:29 PM
what i meant was wouldnt the extra weight make the car less responsive?
WRC rules state the minimum weight for a rally car.
They can make the car easily 200kg less than that minimum weight if they wanted to.
SOOOO, there is no real 'extra' weight.,
The heavier shell just means less balast has to go elsewhere :)
There IS an argument about that extra steel raising the CoG of the car, but it's not a lot.

escort mexico
07-16-2004, 04:45 AM
you are also missing out the fact that 4 doors makes the car a hell of a lot easier to work on whilst in service, saves the mechanics climbing in and out over the front seats all of the time

Matra et Alpine
07-16-2004, 10:54 AM
you are also missing out the fact that 4 doors makes the car a hell of a lot easier to work on whilst in service, saves the mechanics climbing in and out over the front seats all of the time
erm, there's nothing in the back to work on :)

escort mexico
07-16-2004, 05:11 PM
erm, there's nothing in the back to work on :)

yes there is, fire extingiushers, and there are also covers over the diff, so they can be worked on, maybe not now, but they certainly used it a couple of years ago, and they still have quite a bit of stuff in the back of the ARC cars

Matra et Alpine
07-16-2004, 05:58 PM
yes there is, fire extingiushers, and there are also covers over the diff, so they can be worked on, maybe not now, but they certainly used it a couple of years ago, and they still have quite a bit of stuff in the back of the ARC cars
Might be differences in the cars prepped in your area.
Diffs were dropped form their frames for replacement. No in-site work is done on them.
NEVER seen a team work on an extinguisher in 30 years of rallying :)
The other stuff in the back tends to be helmet box, pipe work and cabling moved inside the car. Most now run the modern heat sensitive pressurised extinguisher pipes from the boot round the engine and passenger bays.
Used to be radios, intercom and video equipment took up a fair bit of the back seat area. They're now all the size of a fag-packet and usually tied on the cage :)

Karrmann
07-16-2004, 06:01 PM
why should they open though, there is no back seat, I feel the poity for anyone who opens it up to only see that his butt lands on a bunck of hoses belts and gears.(ouch) ;)

escort mexico
07-16-2004, 06:11 PM
why should they open though, there is no back seat, I feel the poity for anyone who opens it up to only see that his butt lands on a bunck of hoses belts and gears.(ouch) ;)

they can also be changed over if the car hits something, for some nice new non dented ones

Karrmann
07-16-2004, 06:28 PM
oh yeah, that's right, no hack saws needed! :D i didn't think about that

johnnyperl
07-16-2004, 07:34 PM
you guys neglected to mention the real reason why sedans are used.
the companies dont make coupes!!
the lancer and impreza are now only sedans.
also, in the case of the impreza you cant really argue that a sedan is stronger or more practical for service because the coupe was used in previous years even when a sedan was also produced.

PS. NASCAR are fiberglass one-piece bodies, theyre not even welded shut, the doors dont even exist.

Matra et Alpine
07-17-2004, 04:47 AM
you guys neglected to mention the real reason why sedans are used.
the companies dont make coupes!!
The 'trend' was started with the Ford Sierra.
The Cosworth and RS500 versions were decent race cars and succesful rally cars in the early '80s. This was based on the 3-door coupe shell.
Ford AVO then used the 2WD Saphire Cosworth until 1990 and then the 4WD Saphire version both based on the 4-door sedan body.
This was the start of the "stronger shell through 4 doors" proposition.

the lancer and impreza are now only sedans.
also, in the case of the impreza you cant really argue that a sedan is stronger or more practical for service because the coupe was used in previous years even when a sedan was also produced.
Ford changed the thinking of the day and everyone switched to sedans.
( Brother led the development in the UK of the 4-door Audi 80 shell as replacement for the works coupes. )

Today, with the continued development of cages and materials ( check out a 1970 rally car roll cage and today's equivalent :) ) whilst there is still a small advantage I think it is more to do with selling the sedan cars. Some folks still believe the old Ford adage "win on a Sunday, sell on a Monday" !!

Coventrysucks
07-17-2004, 06:48 AM
So why does Ford use the 3dr shell of the Focus?

I assume it is because it retains the b-pillar, hence the added strength etc.

Karrmann
07-17-2004, 06:53 AM
yeah, in case of a flip.

Matra et Alpine
07-17-2004, 08:30 AM
So why does Ford use the 3dr shell of the Focus?

I assume it is because it retains the b-pillar, hence the added strength etc.
Because they don't have a sedan shell.
All are hatch-back and 4 doors makes the rear section weaker as it doesn't have the crossmember at the hinge end of the boot AND the crossmember at the roofline. So between the D-pillars is stronger

Karrmann
07-17-2004, 10:11 AM
hm, they make 4 door focuses.

Matra et Alpine
07-17-2004, 11:32 AM
hm, they make 4 door focuses.
yep, but it's not a sedan shell so ther is no stress-memeber between the arches. Only the roof and the floor. A sedan has the extras cross at the hinge end of the boot (trunk) and this adds torsional strength.

Karrmann
07-17-2004, 11:42 AM
oh ok, I just mis read, sorry :)

SIMPLETON
07-17-2004, 11:53 AM
PS. NASCAR are fiberglass one-piece bodies.

What they use aluminum bodies. i think

Coventrysucks
07-17-2004, 12:22 PM
yep, but it's not a sedan shell so ther is no stress-memeber between the arches. Only the roof and the floor. A sedan has the extras cross at the hinge end of the boot (trunk) and this adds torsional strength.

FWIW there is a Focus sedan, but I guess they went for the hatch for marketing purposes, as the sedan isn't popular in Europe.

Karrmann
07-17-2004, 12:24 PM
and the hatchback basically sells better

escort mexico
07-17-2004, 09:44 PM
structual rigitity isn't really a problem, as the roll cage gives it most of the strength, thats why ford use the hatch focus (apart from the fact that the Sedan looks crap, and weighs more) Take a look at Marko Martin's car after it's roll on the weekend, it was all bent, except for the cockpit area that the drivers were in.