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View Full Version : Sequential vs "H" pattern



KnifeEdge_2K1
07-24-2004, 01:47 PM
Sequention Pros: up or down, takes up less space, gear selection is done by racheting drum so generally its smooth and consistent
Sequential Cons: can't move directly into neutral (atleast i dont think it can), therefore you can't double clutch

H pattern pro: you can move directly into whichever gear you want, more "fun"
H pattern cons: you can select wrong gear by accident, on some cars connecting the shifter to the gearbox is complicated due to a tranverse setup, selecting reverse from fifth ... (this is stupid but it happens, gear wont engage but your dog gears and sycros will pretty much die)

which type do you guys think is best ?
for racing it's pretty much common knowledge that sequential is better (will someone clear up the thing bout double clutching? can you shift to neutral directly in a sequential setup?)

DodgeNitroBIRM
07-24-2004, 02:12 PM
Why would you want to double clutch? It slows shifting and isn't needed because of the sycronizers. Another con you forgot to mention in the sequential is the fact you can't shift directly from, say, 1st to 3rd. This kind of makes them impractable in everyday applications.

You also can't shift from overdrive to reverse in a normal car because you are usually at speed and is locked out incase you forget you are in top gear.

I want to know, where does everyone get the idea that double clutching is faster or better than normal shifting or power shifting?

KnifeEdge_2K1
07-24-2004, 02:21 PM
Why would you want to double clutch? It slows shifting and isn't needed because of the sycronizers. Another con you forgot to mention in the sequential is the fact you can't shift directly from, say, 1st to 3rd. This kind of makes them impractable in everyday applications.

actually double clutching IS needed when you get to high horsepower applications since the sycros and dog gears are transfering such an immense amount of energy, by double clutching you reduce the strain on these parts, today's sycros are much better than the ones of old but when you're in a race or something you dont want to be held back because your syncro or dog gears are busted


You also can't shift from overdrive to reverse in a normal car because you are usually at speed and is locked out incase you forget you are in top gear.

I want to know, where does everyone get the idea that double clutching is faster or better than normal shifting or power shifting?

some cars dont "lock out" the reverse gear, true alot of them have a pull ring or some other prevention measure but some don't, and an accidental slip of your hand is all it needs to kill your dog gears since reverse and first gear usually have no syncros

and for the last question double clutching isn't faster than normal shifting but as i said already it reduces strain on those parts. since generally these parts are no larger than the size of your palm, and need to transfer all the power from the engine to the wheels, its a wonder why people dont double clutch more often :D

Matra et Alpine
07-24-2004, 02:59 PM
Why would you want to double clutch? It slows shifting and isn't needed because of the sycronizers.
You wouldn't do it going up the box. You can easily match revs and limit the stress at the change point. As KE, says it reduces the stress. If you've wide ratio - say 2 to 3 - for a circuit then you'd want to double de-clutch on that change to protect the box for the race and to save you having to strip it every weekend :)
BUT, coming down the box, you sure would benefit from double de-clutching because you're using the engine to assist braking and manage the weight transfer for optimal turn-in.
On down-change under braking it down't matter that it takes you a 1/2second longer to shift at worse case !!

Another con you forgot to mention in the sequential is the fact you can't shift directly from, say, 1st to 3rd. This kind of makes them impractable in everyday applications.
If it's a manual clutch you can but you go through secodn IN the box, but as you don't engage the clutch it doesn't really matter.

KnifeEdge_2K1
07-24-2004, 10:04 PM
hmm i think "H" pattern is better even in racing applications (to some extent, obviously you won't have it in a f1 car)
the "feel" of it and the freedom to shift to whichever gear you would like i think puts it on top. however in racing (i mean real racing like wrc, f1, lemans) sequential is essential, even if it is electronic (paddle shift)

Cedric
07-25-2004, 11:35 AM
Double de-clutching gives less strain. But does it synchronize gears more quickly? It does on big gears (which have more inertia as a result) like in lorries. the gears need more time to get the same speed. In cars it is faster not to double de-clutch, but as said it's a mere 1/2 sec while braking. I also find we should do more heel-and-toeing on downchange (with or without double de-clutch) as I think it doesnt ruin the clutch as much as those people who shift to a lower gear and release the clutch while braking. heel-and-toeing makes the revs rise quickly and if you become more familiar with your car you will be able to almost exactly match the revs of the clutch and flywheel. Double de-clutch is good riddance though.

Matra et Alpine
07-25-2004, 11:49 AM
Double de-clutching gives less strain. But does it synchronize gears more quickly?
Didn't really explain the downchange bit completely. Made an assumption :) sorry.

If you are racing/rallying and flat out coming to a second gear corner, then it's the 'safest' way to get from 5 or 4 down to 2 without losing metal from the cones in the syncro !
In competition, the less metal you can have floating around the oil midway through an event the better for the chances of finishing.
A small amount of extra effort to protect them pays of. Coz if the wear enough to lose their bite than the driver will have to then double-de-clutch on ALL gear changes for that cog. Not time you want to lose in accelerating :(

For ordinary street use, no need to DDC :)

byronleehk
07-25-2004, 04:52 PM
I was talking to a friend (who races in the U.S. Firehawk series) and he said double clutching lets him 'skip' gears without having to go through the sequence while maintaining the maximum rev range. But he said now a days the sequental gearboxes are so sophisticated that it sometimes 'think' for you...like the Ferrari F1 shifters, it actually automatically 'blips' the engine while you downshift.

Matra et Alpine
07-25-2004, 05:17 PM
I was talking to a friend (who races in the U.S. Firehawk series) and he said double clutching lets him 'skip' gears without having to go through the sequence while maintaining the maximum rev range. But he said now a days the sequental gearboxes are so sophisticated that it sometimes 'think' for you...like the Ferrari F1 shifters, it actually automatically 'blips' the engine while you downshift.
For sure, B, with an electronic controlled clutch and throttle, there are LOTS of smarts can be used. But generally out of the reach of us mortals to service for one race never miind buy :(

KnifeEdge_2K1
07-25-2004, 08:05 PM
byron i believe your friend mistook a tiptronic transmission or electronicly controlled manual for a sequential manual box
tiptronic and other electronic manuals does this but since they arn't TRUE manuals as you dont control the clutch

in f1 the gearchanges are done by a computer which controls the sequential box
tiptronic transmissions which emulate the sequential shift pattern (up down) are also electronicly controlled and they're actually automatic boxes which have a torque converter

heel toe does nothing in real life, the whole reason to heel toe is to downshift while braking, on public roads you never need to downshift that quick so double clutching would be better in the sense it lessens the wear on the syncros.

also double clutching can be used to "skip" gears but its not faster in anyway.

if i wanted to go from 5th to 3rd using double clutching i'd shift to neutral, brake, when i'm at my desired speed id rev my engine to the speed corrosponding to my car speed, shift into gear and then get back onto the gas

with heel toe i'd brake, clutch and match my revs, shift, keep my foot on the brakes, and clutch, match revs, and shift down again

both methods will require the same ammount of braking but with double clutching i'll have to do less work

however, since heel toe will allow you to brake later, it's generally used more in racing

Cedric
07-26-2004, 01:35 PM
however, since heel toe will allow you to brake later, it's generally used more in racing

I always assumed that heel-and-toeing shortens the braking distance. In Piero Taruffi's book 'Technique of Motor Racing' (said to be top of the bill, even for its age) braking distance is not enhanced by means of heel-and-toeing: if we braked with the clutch dipped or using the heel-and-toe technique braking distance would remain the same. I doubt this however. Could anyone adjust or adhere to this theory? Heel-and-toeing does set you up properly to enter a corner in a lower gear.

Matra et Alpine
07-26-2004, 02:01 PM
however, since heel toe will allow you to brake later, it's generally used more in racing

I always assumed that heel-and-toeing shortens the braking distance. In Piero Taruffi's book 'Technique of Motor Racing' (said to be top of the bill, even for its age) braking distance is not enhanced by means of heel-and-toeing: if we braked with the clutch dipped or using the heel-and-toe technique braking distance would remain the same. I doubt this however. Could anyone adjust or adhere to this theory? Heel-and-toeing does set you up properly to enter a corner in a lower gear.

By heel-and-toeing as you brake you can drop a gear and have the engine mate speed at HIGH revs. Then coming off the throttle will induce heavier engine-braking. THIS is a BIG plus in increasing braking effort and car balance while braking.
Vitally important in rear/mid engine cars.

Cedric
07-26-2004, 02:25 PM
I entirely agree with you; but why would Taruffi (being an engineer/driver) claim braking distance remains the same?
What's the deal with the car balance?

Matra et Alpine
07-26-2004, 02:50 PM
A racing car has a VERY low Centre of Gravity and stiff springs with hard damper settings, so when they brake the weight transfer onto the front is minimal. Also front engine is not an issue. What was Tarufi talking about in the book ??

Cars however have a higher CoG and have more compliant springs and dampers. So when you break there is a weight trasnfer to the front. If all you want to do is come to a stop, this is not a major problem ( their is a small stability issue but anti-dive suspension arrangments make this minimal )

However on track and stage you are braking usually with the purpsoe to then turn. So that weight trasnfer on to the front means less weight and hence grip on the rear. So as you turn in the lightly loaded rear wheels will break away as the polar moment of inertia on a rear/mid engine is far back.

To manage that you want a MUCH more gentle transition from braking to turn-in. So you use heel-and-toe to keep the car more balanced with the use of engine braking which maintains more weight on the rear, more braking force can then be applied there and the transition to turn-in doesn't initiate an immediate break away.

If you go to the the Tim Harvey video in http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3164&highlight=tim+harvey he mentions this on my A610 for the hairpin at Knockhill. As a rally driver this was a new technique he was teaching me on the day :) He took SECONDS off my lap time with that simple instruction - and a lot of laps practise :)

KnifeEdge_2K1
07-26-2004, 02:54 PM
the distance spent braking is the same

but heel toe allows you to brake later by shifting down during the braking process

KnifeEdge_2K1
07-26-2004, 02:59 PM
also heel toe keeps the car balanced because there is only a slight gap between the gears. if you were to brake and double clutch or single clutch then you'll spend a large amount of time either with the clutch depressed or in neutral. this is really bad in racing since a) you're not putting any power down and b) you loose the ability to control the car's speed with the gas

i think thats what its all about, matra seems to know much more about this then i do if im incorrect then he'll corect me :D

KnifeEdge_2K1
07-26-2004, 03:03 PM
To manage that you want a MUCH more gentle transition from braking to turn-in. So you use heel-and-toe to keep the car more balanced with the use of engine braking which maintains more weight on the rear, more braking force can then be applied there and the transition to turn-in doesn't initiate an immediate break away.


can you explain this in greater detail

i was under the impression that heel toe is used just to rev match while braking allowing instant acceleration at the apex and reducing the ammount of time where power is not being put down

and as you've already mentioned the higher engine speed will allow the engine internals' friction to slow down the car without stalling

how does engine braking maintain more weight on the rear? this im assuming depends on the drivetrain

SilverArrowZ
07-27-2004, 12:23 AM
i know i'm a noob but what is double clutch? is it a thingy or a method? if it is a method how u do it? you say it can protect the transmision.... i want to know :D i'm fed up with fixing transmission

KnifeEdge_2K1
07-27-2004, 08:57 PM
i know i'm a noob but what is double clutch? is it a thingy or a method? if it is a method how u do it? you say it can protect the transmision.... i want to know :D i'm fed up with fixing transmission

its a method for shifting

its only used to shift down and not shifting up (ill explain why later)

you probably know how a transmission works

there's an input shaft and an outputshaft both with gears on it. the gears are always engaged to each other and the input shaft but spins freely on the output shaft. there are a seperate group of gears (called dog gears)which are connected directly to the output shaft that can lock onto their corrosponding input gears. this is how you change gear. you select the dog gears and lock them onto the input shaft and thats how the power is transmitted (for a detailed explanation search how manual transmissions work on google)

now, as you can probably imagine if the speeds of the two gears are different then during the engageing of the dog gears there will be quite a bit of wear and tear. thats why there are sycronizers attached infront of the dog gears. these are little metal cones that make frictional contact BEFORE the gears engage, this helps to match the speeds of the gears

older transmissions had very fragile syncros so they used a technique called double clutching to match the speeds of the input output shafts even before the syncros engage

how you do this is like this, if you wanted to shift from 3rd to 2nd for example

say you're at around 5000rpm in third gear and you wanted to shift down to pass a car, you'd depress the clutch, shift to neutral, rev the engine while you're in neutral to the new rpm speed, then clutch again, and shift into 2nd

why this isnt needed to shift up usually is because of the laws of physics. when you shift from 2nd to 3rd. and you're in about 7000 rpm and in 3rd at the same speed you'll be at about 5000rpm give or take. when you depress the clutch the engine's internal friction will natrually cause the rpms to drop.

since current transmission syncros are pretty damn good its not needed for everyday driving. but as we've discussed earlier when you get into really high horsepower applications like in racing the wear on the syncro becomes more extreme.

if i missed anything matra will explain in further detail :D

Matra et Alpine
07-28-2004, 03:39 AM
i was under the impression that heel toe is used just to rev match while braking
yes

allowing instant acceleration at the apex and reducing the ammount of time where power is not being put down
well kinda, I'll explain later

and as you've already mentioned the higher engine speed will allow the engine internals' friction to slow down the car without stalling
not so much stalling, but using the engine to effectively give more braking to the rear when wanted.

how does engine braking maintain more weight on the rear? this im assuming depends on the drivetrain
This works soooo much easier when I can wave my hands whilst explaining:)
We're going to put racing cars aside. They have an unusally low CoG and variable brake bias which adds complication.
So, sports car .... the suspension and brake bias is a compromise, when you brake the nose drops, the rear lifts slightly too due to the CoG being above the centre line fo the central-moment of the suspension ( this is complicated a little with anti-dive suspension whcih moves the 'centre' of the suspension lower under compression - please don't ask there is NO WAY I can explain that without a white board and lots of drawings :) )
So most of the braking effort was already dialled into the front and the weight transfer increases the grip on the front and the car stops faster. That's OK in a straight line.
If you want to corner at speed, then as you come off the brakes and seek to go on the power the car weight transfers off the fronts to the rear. If it is doing this as you turn-in then the weight trasnfer whilst on one hadn is good for getting the weight onto the rears it's bad as the dynamics of the situation mean that it hasn't really got all the grip yet and so the centrifugal force pushes th rear out and you get the classic 911 leave backwards into the bushes effect.
Now in a race car you would dial in a little more rear-bias to help this, but that isn't ideal for braking in a straight line, so some drivesr have bene known to adjust the bias dynamically as they come up to 'difficult' corners. Not ideal !!
The best choice is to maintain the weight balance by preventing that forward transfer and return from being so abrupt. And so we get to using the engine as an additional brake. As said before maximum braking from an engine comes from higher gears ( you're using more compression strokes ) so in coming to a corner and braking the driver will change down the box to use the engine to provid more retardation force on the rear wheels. THIS makes the REAR squat and reduces the amount of forward shift. So now when we transition to accelerate to the apex the car is not changing attitude dramatically. There is no large trasnfer of weight balance and the grip is more stable and usable by the driver. The driver will use heel-and-toe to match the engine speed to the 'box speed to again avoid nasty lurches. It's all about smoothness.

Does that help ? It's hard trying to write stuff like this down in 5 minutes. There are plenty of books out there and I'd recommend anyone interested in tryign this does 2 things. First, read about it, different drivers have different styles for different situations and secondly practise it on a TRACK preferably with tuition - it's not that expensive !!

To come back to double-de-clutching. If you do the above a lot then you will heel and toe to match engine revs but even so it can be destructive to the gearbox - one of my Matra's 2nd gear lasted about a year of trackdays :(. So be aware that driving at speed streses componnets and be prepared to have to do regular mainentance, strip downs and replacements !!

Cedric
07-28-2004, 11:37 AM
why this isnt needed to shift up usually is because of the laws of physics. when you shift from 2nd to 3rd. and you're in about 7000 rpm and in 3rd at the same speed you'll be at about 5000rpm give or take. when you depress the clutch the engine's internal friction will natrually cause the rpms to drop.



I can see the engine loses its speed as soon as you lift off the throttle, but do the gears loose their speed as fast as the engine does? suppose you are in 2nd and you want to change to 3rd, how long does it take for 3rd gear (which was originally running faster than 2nd -I suppose) to lose its speed so that the dog rings can smoothly hook up to it?

PS: it is difficult to picture a moving gearbox inside your head!

KnifeEdge_2K1
07-28-2004, 02:28 PM
I can see the engine loses its speed as soon as you lift off the throttle, but do the gears loose their speed as fast as the engine does? suppose you are in 2nd and you want to change to 3rd, how long does it take for 3rd gear (which was originally running faster than 2nd -I suppose) to lose its speed so that the dog rings can smoothly hook up to it?

PS: it is difficult to picture a moving gearbox inside your head!

i dont think it does, the engine has compression strokes to help slow it down but the transmission's gears and input shaft are rotating freely. doesnt really matter thou since you cant do anything extra to slow it down, other than put it into neutral and using the engine to do it, but thats really dumb

Cedric
07-28-2004, 02:32 PM
True, the gears run freely around their shaft, but if you are running in 2nd gear at a certain rpm, 3rd gear has a different rpm than 2nd. Even if they run freely they will still have different speeds after the clutch has been dipped. does that impede you in any way from slamming from 2nd to 3rd?

KnifeEdge_2K1
07-28-2004, 02:55 PM
True, the gears run freely around their shaft, but if you are running in 2nd gear at a certain rpm, 3rd gear has a different rpm than 2nd. Even if they run freely they will still have different speeds after the clutch has been dipped. does that impede you in any way from slamming from 2nd to 3rd?

...what?

Cedric
07-28-2004, 03:10 PM
ok, this is hard to explain without a drawing, but I'll give it a try: does the dog remain running at the same speed as the 2nd gear for some time as soon as it is disconnected from that very same 2nd gear? Ifthe engine is doing say 5000rpm, the input shaft in the gearbox will be doing say 3500 rpm, this means that 2nd gear will have a lower speed, than 3rd gear, cos 2nd is taller in size. If the dog is connected with 2nd gear it will also have that same lower speed. 3rd gear is running faster, so how can the dog be made to run faster to match the speeds. this is what i was getting at.

Matra et Alpine
07-28-2004, 03:17 PM
...what?
You shgoudl read the article on www.howstuffwoks.com on manual transmission. It has moving animation http://auto.howstuffworks.com/transmission5.htm which will explain it all best. The rest of the articles will also explain a lot of the other workinsg of the 'box.

http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/transmission-5speed-gears.gif

But looking at this picture from there.
You will notice that ALL the gears are ALL connected.
At first look that would seem imposssible, EXCEPT that the gears on the mainshaft aren't actually connected to the shaft. It is only when the cogs/splies slid in that a singel gear is connected to the shaft. All the gears on te layshaft are connected. So ALL gears are actually spinning in a gearbox but only ONE output gear is connected to the main shaft and hence driving the wheels.

SilverArrowZ
07-28-2004, 06:59 PM
thanks KE.. seems like i know it already without knowing it is called "double clutching" i've been looking at tsuchiya's driving in best motoring for dunno how long, but i don't really have to apply them cuz most probably im driving at low rev

KnifeEdge_2K1
07-28-2004, 08:04 PM
You shgoudl read the article on www.howstuffwoks.com on manual transmission. It has moving animation http://auto.howstuffworks.com/transmission5.htm which will explain it all best. The rest of the articles will also explain a lot of the other workinsg of the 'box.

http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/transmission-5speed-gears.gif

But looking at this picture from there.
You will notice that ALL the gears are ALL connected.
At first look that would seem imposssible, EXCEPT that the gears on the mainshaft aren't actually connected to the shaft. It is only when the cogs/splies slid in that a singel gear is connected to the shaft. All the gears on te layshaft are connected. So ALL gears are actually spinning in a gearbox but only ONE output gear is connected to the main shaft and hence driving the wheels.

lol i know how it works, i didnt understand the question the guy was asking

henk4
07-28-2004, 11:53 PM
For ordinary street use, no need to DDC :)

That is, unless you drive a 15 year old Mini. :)

Matra et Alpine
07-29-2004, 04:28 AM
That is, unless you drive a 15 year old Mini. :)
but you're only doing that for the sound :)

I hear you like to blip the throttle on the way down the box !!!!!!!!!!

henk4
07-29-2004, 06:32 AM
but you're only doing that for the sound :)

I hear you like to blip the throttle on the way down the box !!!!!!!!!!

Yes and no, because shifting actually goes a bith smoother. Junior is jealous because he has not yet mastererd the art of DDC :)

Cedric
07-29-2004, 11:58 AM
I know how a gearbox works. I only wanted to know if double declutching is needed on upchange in some cases If so, what would happen with the gears? If you dip the clutch, since all the gears run freely, will they come to a stop slowly or rather fast? Or do they keep moving due to the friction between the mainshaft? If you change up, how do gears cope with the faster running dogring when it connects with them?

Matra et Alpine
07-29-2004, 03:56 PM
I know how a gearbox works. I only wanted to know if double declutching is needed on upchange in some cases If so, what would happen with the gears? If you dip the clutch, since all the gears run freely, will they come to a stop slowly or rather fast? Or do they keep moving due to the friction between the mainshaft? If you change up, how do gears cope with the faster running dogring when it connects with them?
In most modern gearboxes the gears are connected and spinning all the time. The gearchange moves pins/cogs/teeth to engage the gear to the output shaft. See the picture I'd posted earlier.
In older gearboxes ( and some today ) the output gears come in pairs.
Not sure why there was an advantage/disadvantage in the arrangement :)

Anyway, when you dip the clutch, the layshaft is STILL rotating at engine speed. The gears are still connected and so they are all still rotating. The OUTPUT shaft however will slow down. Whilst there is little weight in these it is connected to the clutch plate, so in a heavy setup that can have a fair momentum and not slow a lot. In racing, these are VERY light and likely to slow quite quickly.

The animation at howstuffworks is the best to view to grasp where the moving parts are in 'neutral'

But to answer, NO DDC on the way up isn't necessary on cars. A little throttle control to match gear speed will help a lot though :) On HEAVY vehicles and going up hill then DDC is still beneficial and sometimes necessary on trucks or it just won't engage.

Cedric
07-30-2004, 11:54 AM
ok,
so, as the gears are still rotating at engine speed after the clutch is dipped, double declutching is also necessary on upchange in a gearbox without synchro, isn't it?

Matra et Alpine
07-30-2004, 03:55 PM
ok,
so, as the gears are still rotating at engine speed after the clutch is dipped, double declutching is also necessary on upchange in a gearbox without synchro, isn't it?
If no synchro on a gear you have to ddc to blip the throttle to speed match the gear.

henk4
07-31-2004, 05:15 AM
this is the "car" where I had to apply DDC. (5 speed non synchro, going from third to second was the hard part, it had to be done almost full thorttle). I had already tought myself DDC in the Fiat 850 Coupe my father owned at the time I got my license. It had a sort of reputation as a lady's car and I did my very best the tamper with that reputation. Heel/Toe was however impossible and one should never try to learn that at places where braking is absolutely required. Going straight is worse than going in the wrong gear :)

Cedric
07-31-2004, 12:38 PM
A car with racing aspirations can be recognized by its pedal set-up; like in this De Tomaso Vallelunga, a set-up perfect for heel-and-toeing.http://groups.msn.com/historicracing/shoebox.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=166

KnifeEdge_2K1
07-31-2004, 08:33 PM
A car with racing aspirations can be recognized by its pedal set-up; like in this De Tomaso Vallelunga, a set-up perfect for heel-and-toeing.http://groups.msn.com/historicracing/shoebox.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=166

isn't that kind of vague, thats like saying anyting with a huge wing will be fast, or any car with a short throw shifter is a race car

SilverArrowZ
07-31-2004, 11:01 PM
a good driver should be able to do heel and toe on almost every car's standard pedals.. unless your body is so big and tall and you are driving a small car

Matra et Alpine
08-01-2004, 01:38 AM
a good driver should be able to do heel and toe on almost every car's standard pedals.. unless your body is so big and tall and you are driving a small car
not always practical.
The theory is OK, but some cars brake pedals are set quite high and the contortion necessary to get the foot covering both can be VERY difficult and sometimes impossible :)
Also, they can be so far apart that it truly needs heel and toe and again that is extrememly difficult to 'finesse'.
And sometimes what makes for good isn't liked.
Witness, Renault's - almost every car the complaint is the pedals are offset.
Well for me it's great because with the Brake/accelerator combo being more central, it's easier to roll the edge of the foot for the throttle. But everyone else complains :)
Also top hung pedals are way difficult then bottom pivoted and oddly some of the best have been the mix - top hung brake bottom pivoted throttle :( IMHO

Cedric
08-01-2004, 03:56 AM
Yes KnifeEdge, it is kinda vague, but who doesn't enjoy a nice set-up to horse around with?!
A shame the De Tomaso pic isn't shown. how do you insert pics?