Bush's "ARMY of ONE"

[NoOne]

I was reading back through the Politics (http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=457) thread and I came across a link I had posted back in October last year, I'm not going to start up the whole politics thread regarding reasons for the U.S.A.'s invasion of Iraq, but I would like people to see what Bush and I suppose his administration are doing for the troops that were sent there.

Please click HERE (http://www.takebackthemedia.com/onearmy.html) and express your comments, but please keep them relevant to the link.

More related Flash movies HERE (http://www.takebackthemedia.com/flash.html)

[Matra et Alpine]

I was reading back through the Politics (http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=457) thread and I came across a link I had posted back in October last year, I'm not going to start up the whole politics thread regarding reasons for the U.S.A.'s invasion of Iraq, but I would like people to see what Bush and I suppose his administration are doing for the troops that were sent there.

Please click HERE (http://www.takebackthemedia.com/onearmy.html) and express your comments, but please keep them relevant to the link.

More related Flash movies HERE (http://www.takebackthemedia.com/flash.html)

Wow that is a powerful first video, really makes the message painful and sad.

Also, what's with http://www.takebackthemedia.com/liar.html ?
What do Bush supporters say was the reason for such an inept-looking performance from a President ? I'm asking in case the clip is suffering from a bit of "moore-editing"... It IS scray adn I've never seen that shown over here, wonder if our government is applyign pressure to the BBC again :(

[lithuanianmafia]

truly is painful to see what the troops have gone through in Iraq, only to find out that many of their benefits and basic support are gone when they get back.

and still, no legitimate, supported reason for this war has been given.

just gonna wait for gtface to come here and tell me how wrong we are and how Dubya is a God :rolleyes:

[DieterCabral]

its impressive... also very sad dont you think??? thank god that Imbecile is not my president!

well my actual point was to keep this a car page, I understand its outrageous what this "violent-redneck" has done... but there are several politics websites out there... please lets keep UCP as a car page

[werty]

hmm....

why does this type of thread keep coming up.....especially when its started by people who dont even live in America. I don't understand what your motives are....except to badmouth my President. Look i know this is a miscellaneous forum, but come on people, most of these threads are started for one goal alone....to bash anything American, because you dont approve of it...i say get your your un-american noses out of it.

It may not always start out to bash, but after about two posts it has gone overboard. I'm getting sick of people telling me how to live, how much my country is doing wrong, or not doing. I'm sick of this, its ridiculous, i have yet to see a thread bashing another country or its leaders.

And don't even try to say your motives are innocent, i'm sick of hearing that bull****.

Look i really like it here on UCP, i've been here for along time and made some friends. I don't want to leave this forum, or anything to do with this site, i like it here. But this is the kind of stuff that really bothers me and alot of other members who live in the US (not all, but some).

If this kind of stuff keeps coming up on this site, i will leave and i will take everything i've brought here with me. I dont want to do that but i will if i have to.

[Coventrysucks]

I was reading back through the Politics (http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=457) thread and I came across a link I had posted back in October last year, I'm not going to start up the whole politics thread regarding reasons for the U.S.A.'s invasion of Iraq, but I would like people to see what Bush and I suppose his administration are doing for the troops that were sent there.

Please click HERE (http://www.takebackthemedia.com/onearmy.html) and express your comments, but please keep them relevant to the link.

More related Flash movies HERE (http://www.takebackthemedia.com/flash.html)

If you think that's bad, imagine what the British Soldiers have to put up with.
None of their stuff works, they keep getting shot at by the Americans, and Good old Tony wants to "reform" the Forces so that we can't actually have any sort of war without the Americans to help...

Boris Jonhson for PM!

[Matra et Alpine]

... not American ...
Granted the poster is Canadian, but that complete site is AMERICAN.


I'm getting sick of people telling me how to live, how much my country is doing wrong, or not doing. I'm sick of this, its ridiculous,


Are you Iraqi ?
Sorry, it just sounded like that.

Q: Is sarcasm a misunderstood form of humour ??


If this kind of stuff keeps coming up on this site, i will leave and i will take everything i've brought here with me. I dont want to do that but i will if i have to.
Isn't it easier to just ignore the posts ?
As a believer in free speech I dont' see it is a problem as long as it isn't the majority of posts and threads. 80/20 rules are everyhwere, so expect 20% of things on UCP to upset everyone ( fortunately seldom the same 20% :) )
i have yet to see a thread bashing another country or its leaders.
I suspect myopia is present. You want to review my coments on OUR president ( oh sorry Prime Minister ) Blair. The man's a dickhead who thinks if it makes a good story it will make good policy and if it's a shit policy as long as they can make it a good story it's fine.

[SlickHolden]

I was reading back through the Politics (http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=457) thread and I came across a link I had posted back in October last year, I'm not going to start up the whole politics thread regarding reasons for the U.S.A.'s invasion of Iraq, but I would like people to see what Bush and I suppose his administration are doing for the troops that were sent there.

Please click HERE (http://www.takebackthemedia.com/onearmy.html) and express your comments, but please keep them relevant to the link.

More related Flash movies HERE (http://www.takebackthemedia.com/flash.html)
Coalition :)

[Egg Nog]

hmm....

why does this type of thread keep coming up.....especially when its started by people who dont even live in America. I don't understand what your motives are....except to badmouth my President. Look i know this is a miscellaneous forum, but come on people, most of these threads are started for one goal alone....to bash anything American, because you dont approve of it...i say get your your un-american noses out of it.

Yeah, true. I mean, it's not like like the US has opinions about any other countries in the world. They keep their noses out of things.

You'll notice that a lot of good points have been made on these boards. You should try to listen to some of them. If someone brings up a terrible point about Canada (ex: the historical construction of our national railways), I'm ashamed. I don't deny or point fingers, but rather accept such faults. Instead of closing your eyes and yelling, why the hell don't you pay attention to what everyone is saying?

While you keep saying stuff like this, I hope you don't wonder why your country's international reputation is going down the tubes. We all live on the same planet, and everything has an effect on everything else.

Isn't there something to be said for freedom of speech? Or do you not believe in freedom...

[lithuanianmafia]

...most of these threads are started for one goal alone....to bash anything American, because you dont approve of it...i say get your your un-american noses out of it.

first off, we're not bashing the US, but rather the administration leading the country. I love Americans as a people. of course I do, my mother is American, I have American citizenship! so u can't say to me to keep my "un-american" nose out of it. 2nd, Egg Nogg is right, this sort of attitude by the current administration is what has lead the downfall of the view of Americans around the world. there should be a man or woman in the white house that represents the country in a way that reflects what the country is really like.

[werty]

whatever guys, you just say what you want, you have the freedom to say whatever you want, so do it!

[DodgeNitroBIRM]

Actually, there was one post that was used to just bash anything American. Anyone remember Guty_x? (or however it was spelled?) Thought, later, he was outsmarted by one of his own countrymen.

[KnifeEdge_2K1]

they should have a mandatory iq test for the president, vice president, secretary of defense ... ah hell the whole cabinet, and publish the results

and inorder for someone to even qualify to be a candidate they should have one over 120 points

if you're dumb enuff to choke on a pretzel ... you might mistake the football for a nintendo

[KnifeEdge_2K1]

btw anyone else think that the government spends wayyy to much time making crazy acronyms?

just lookin at some of them gives me headaches

sometimes i think they just change the name of something just so the acronym sounds better

for example, NASA, that just rolls off the tounge but National Aeronautics and Space Administration? for the love of god just call it the United States Space program or something

[d-quik]

I used to think that the 2nd gulf war would be good for Iraq (Getting rid of a tyrant, saving Shiites and Kurds, and fixing the country over a long run) but bad for the United States (A lot of money wasted on another country's well-being, and no benefits from the war besides the oil). However, now, I know that I was right about one thing. The war sucked for the United States. Little did I foresee that it sucked for Iraq too. Now without an Iron Fist, the country is in total anarchy. Bush simply thought 'wow, maybe if I go into a country with the most powerful military machine in the world, remove some tyrant, maybe the shiites will love me'. No dumbass, they will not love you for destroying their families, occupying their land, and assuming power in that country.

I can not believe Bush was stupid enough to think that people of another nation would be happy (IN ANY WAY) if a foreign power took over their country. This war has not affected me in any way, and I do not hate the American people or the Government. I do, however, find the American government (not the people) very.... annoying.

As for the coalition returning power to the Iraqis, it is a load of bullshit. What happened here is not 'wow, we just destroyed a tyrant, and now someone nicer can run your nation' but rather it is a case of 'oh my ****ing god, running a country that we just beat the living crap out of is harder than i thought, here you go Iraq, take it back we do not want it anymore'. Just when the job of handling a war-torn country is getting to hard, Bush decides to back out like a bog-trotting pussy. Damn wankers.

EDIT: on another note, before the war started the most Americans voted against the war. That mean something to the president. What a shitty representative.... eh?

Also, I do not want to sound like a prick but I do not feel sorry that much for the Coalition troops that died. By joining the military, they automatically become (basically) tools for the country. I never believed that when a soldier joins the military, they do it to just PROTECT their country. They do it to SERVE their country in both DEFENSIVE and OFFENSIVE operations.

[RX7 FC3S]

I am not 100% sure, because I heard it from my friend (I trust he is not making this up, if the information is wrong, it is probably because of his source).
NASA has that "Aeronautics" in there because the original crews were engineers and mechanics for jet and plane designs. Before NASA exists, those people were working on a program in which they designed a jet that can reach 6 times the speed of sound. However, such program was canceled because of budget. I guess it might be to "compensate" the effort those people put into the development of the jet.


As for politics, I don't really like it. I think 90% of politicians are crooks. Anyway, I have nothing against Bush as a person, I just don't agree with certain things that he did. However, I came across with a news yesterday and reminded me something. Even if someone else replaces Bush's position, would it really be better (or not as worse)? Chances are, the new guy might just be worse than him.

[taz_rocks_miami]

truly is painful to see what the troops have gone through in Iraq, only to find out that many of their benefits and basic support are gone when they get back.

and still, no legitimate, supported reason for this war has been given.

just gonna wait for gtface to come here and tell me how wrong we are and how Dubya is a God :rolleyes:

A reason was given for the war, WMD, and how we were all in danger....not. I don't buy the story that BOTH the USA and GB said that no one was at fault, that's a white wash! Face it people, we got lied to!!! Twice!!! Bush is my presindent and as such I have the right to disagree with him and vote his redneck ass out of the White House.

Taz.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

We all got lied to. Simple.
We were all screwed over, Simple.
We (The whole world, FYI) have been affected by a man who stated that The Hungry, Hungry Caterpillar, A book released while he was in college, was his favourite childrens book.....

ah well, maybe they'll vote smarter next time. Oh wait, they did. Ain't recounts a bitch......

[henk4]

Just lookingat the way the Adminsitration (and the Senate and the Congress) dealt with the financial side of army staff, they may have worked under the motto: The best G1 is a dead G1. For best you may also read "cheapest"

[Coventrysucks]

The reason "we" went to war = Regime change.
Regime change = illeagal
Cover story = WMD

[lithuanianmafia]

a little off topic, but has anyone ever noticed how some major guys in the current administration have names that relate to genetalia or related to it?

George W. Bush

Dick Cheney

Colin Powell

just an observation

[megotmea7]

they should have a mandatory iq test for the president, vice president, secretary of defense ... ah hell the whole cabinet, and publish the results

and inorder for someone to even qualify to be a candidate they should have one over 120 points

if you're dumb enuff to choke on a pretzel ... you might mistake the football for a nintendo
you are judging someones intellegence by him chocking on something? he's in the spotlight and all you anti-bush ppl find ANYTHING to cut him down about, you have no idea how intellegent he is but it just makes you feel better to think of him as an idiot


We (The whole world, FYI) have been affected by a man who stated that The Hungry, Hungry Caterpillar, A book released while he was in college, was his favourite childrens book.....
same as above, his favorite childrens book... ok does he have a certain time frame in which the book must have been published for him not to look like an idiot? that point is very ignorant, judge him for his leading abilitys, judge him for his policy making, dont judge him for how he eats(or mishaps that occur durring) or his choice in childrens literature ;) that just shows how limited in scope your thinking is

[megotmea7]

wow i half expected a semi-hostile rebutle after that... :)

[Matra et Alpine]

wow i half expected a semi-hostile rebutle after that... :)
we're all to busy rolling on the floor.

See, one stupid act or mistake or stumble ( physical, verbal or mental ) and you're reply would have been logical.

The list is too huge to be just "bad luck".

At some point you have to go "yup, moron" :)

[taz_rocks_miami]

you are judging someones intellegence by him chocking on something? he's in the spotlight and all you anti-bush ppl find ANYTHING to cut him down about, you have no idea how intellegent he is but it just makes you feel better to think of him as an idiot


same as above, his favorite childrens book... ok does he have a certain time frame in which the book must have been published for him not to look like an idiot? that point is very ignorant, judge him for his leading abilitys, judge him for his policy making, dont judge him for how he eats(or mishaps that occur durring) or his choice in childrens literature ;) that just shows how limited in scope your thinking is

Ok, if Bush is such a brilliant man, how come we lost 3 million jobs in the begining of his administration? He's made them back yes, but Clinton created 23 million in his 4 years. When Clinton left The White House, we had a balanced budget, now we have a deficit, or don't we. And I can go on and on. And like I said before, he (and Tony Blair also) lied to us, and he knew it. We went to war so he could finish what his father wasn't able to.

Taz.

[megotmea7]

how come we lost 3 million jobs in the begining of his administration? He's made them back yes, but Clinton created 23 million in his 4 years. When Clinton left The White House, we had a balanced budget, now we have a deficit, or don't we. And I can go on and on. And like I said before, he (and Tony Blair also) lied to us, and he knew it. We went to war so he could finish what his father wasn't able to.

thats what im talking about, your judging him as he should be judged, as a leader. not as a childrens literature critic, or by his table manners and ettiquet. hell he cant be that dumb, ppl belived him enough to got ot war in the first place... im not defending or cuting down how smart he is i just find it pointless to judge someones intelegence by the various non politics related blunders that are published by the media simply because ppl dont like him. hell clinton looked thru binoculars with the caps on buy you dont see pics of that posted all over the net like you do bushes. also it is blatently obvious busg doesnt have a way with words like clinton did, clinton was a salesman, bush's strong point is definatly not speach giving, again has nothing to do with his intellegence, mabe he gets nervous? yes presidents are ppl too...

example, my girlfriend has walked into a closed screen door... more than once and she's one of the smartest people i know(aside from me ;)) she's going to UCSD and is one of the top 10 in her class but she is very clumsy(just hope this trait doesnt carry over to when she's performing heart sergery... :eek:) she trips, bumps, and does other various blunders ocasionally and if there were a camra on her 24/7, with various international media oganizations, many of which didnt like her for her professional side, would catch some on tape and make judgements on her intellegence. like i said, judge bush as a presedent, hes a human being just like us. if you dont like him b/c of the war so be it, if you dont like him b/c of his economical views so be it, but if you dont like him because he likes a childrens book called the crazy caterpillar(or whatever its called) then open your eyes and grow up...

im out :cool:

[cls12vg30]

how come we lost 3 million jobs in the begining of his administration? He's made them back yes, but Clinton created 23 million in his 4 years.

Congratulations, you've been officially duped by politicians and our pathetic mass media. Try researching how our country actually works. Presidents can neither lose nor create jobs, and it's not their job to do so. Certain policy decisions by either the executive or legislative branches of the government can have some effect on the overall economy, but usually it's like smacking a rhino with a flyswatter. A free-market economy, or a mostly free-market economy, such as we have, is a complex animal, much like the weather, it is governed by inescapable natural laws which derive, at their most basic level, from the basic tenets of human nature and psychology. The most prosperous systems of govenment are those that work with these laws, rather than try to fight or control them.
The point is that no President has ever "created" a job, unless it was a government job, most of which are a drain on the economy rather than an asset. The only possible exception is FDR, whose New Deal programs created "make-work" jobs at taxpayer expense.

[taz_rocks_miami]

Congratulations, you've been officially duped by politicians and our pathetic mass media. Try researching how our country actually works. Presidents can neither lose nor create jobs, and it's not their job to do so. Certain policy decisions by either the executive or legislative branches of the government can have some effect on the overall economy, but usually it's like smacking a rhino with a flyswatter. A free-market economy, or a mostly free-market economy, such as we have, is a complex animal, much like the weather, it is governed by inescapable natural laws which derive, at their most basic level, from the basic tenets of human nature and psychology. The most prosperous systems of govenment are those that work with these laws, rather than try to fight or control them.
The point is that no President has ever "created" a job, unless it was a government job, most of which are a drain on the economy rather than an asset. The only possible exception is FDR, whose New Deal programs created "make-work" jobs at taxpayer expense.

I beg to differ, presidents can create or lose jobs. How? By the way they handle the economy. In a strong economy, people experience what is called consumer confidence, which means they are earning well, feel secure in their jobs and hence they go out and spend money not just on what they need but also on what they want according to their possibilities. This creates jobs how? Well, competative businesses sell more, begin to grow and thus hire more people. In a weak economy the opposite happens, poeple start spending less, companies make far less and begin cutting their fixed costs, and the first thing most companies cut is labor cost ie jobs. So yes, a president can affect the job market. I should know, I'm a business broker.

[crisis]

I used to think that the 2nd gulf war would be good for Iraq (Getting rid of a tyrant, saving Shiites and Kurds, and fixing the country over a long run) but bad for the United States (A lot of money wasted on another country's well-being, and no benefits from the war besides the oil). However, now, I know that I was right about one thing. The war sucked for the United States. Little did I foresee that it sucked for Iraq too. Now without an Iron Fist, the country is in total anarchy. Bush simply thought 'wow, maybe if I go into a country with the most powerful military machine in the world, remove some tyrant, maybe the shiites will love me'. No dumbass, they will not love you for destroying their families, occupying their land, and assuming power in that country.
The result of overthrowing Saddam cannot be finalised yet. There is still a long way to go. But do you say that it is better to leave a shitty situation because it will be too hard to make things right. The US did what they did for their own reasons. Ive said this before but it should not be a surprised. They did a good thing for the possibly the wrong reasons. Ill take that. And if the world can withstand the will of the terrorists who clearly are unhappy that Saddam is gone, for long enough the Iraqis may have a safe an better home than they did under Saddam.

As for the coalition returning power to the Iraqis, it is a load of bullshit. What happened here is not 'wow, we just destroyed a tyrant, and now someone nicer can run your nation' but rather it is a case of 'oh my ****ing god, running a country that we just beat the living crap out of is harder than i thought, here you go Iraq, take it back we do not want it anymore'. Just when the job of handling a war-torn country is getting to hard, Bush decides to back out like a bog-trotting pussy. Damn wankers.
.
So on one hand half the world is crying for him to take his troops out and when he does he is to be condemned.

[crisis]

I beg to differ, presidents can create or lose jobs. How? By the way they handle the economy. In a strong economy, people experience what is called consumer confidence, which means they are earning well, feel secure in their jobs and hence they go out and spend money not just on what they need but also on what they want according to their possibilities. This creates jobs how? Well, competative businesses sell more, begin to grow and thus hire more people. In a weak economy the opposite happens, poeple start spending less, companies make far less and begin cutting their fixed costs, and the first thing most companies cut is labor cost ie jobs. So yes, a president can affect the job market. I should know, I'm a business broker.
The world has a weak economy at the moment. September 11 certainly didnt help the US or anyone else. Maybe thi was Bush's way of stimulating it. Every good war needs expensive weapons and supplies. It also stimulates technology and legitimises military spending. Big bucks. Its a very cynical way to run the world. But the Prsident isnt the king. He does not rule by decree. His influence is measured by the epxerts he surrounds himslef with. He acts on this advise. So the decisions made are not his alone. If he is an idiot then so are many of those who work with him. Saddam on the other hand ruled in the style of a dictator. One whos policy included nepotism. He can be held responsible for the actions of his country. Unfortunately his country of whome most were blameless, were made to pay a terrible price.

[d-quik]

The result of overthrowing Saddam cannot be finalised yet. There is still a long way to go. But do you say that it is better to leave a shitty situation because it will be too hard to make things right.It might not be finalised but we clearly can see that ever since the war, the country has been going downhill. And no, I d o not say it is better to leave a shitty situation.
terrorists who clearly are unhappy that Saddam is gone, for long enough the Iraqis may have a safe an better home than they did under Saddam.I beg to differ. First of all, most of these 'terrorists' are more like resistance fighters (ie: when France was occupied in WWII). These people are upset, not because Saddam is gone, but rather because of the fact that they are occupied. Also, your point about the safety of Iraqis might be true. Keep in mind that without an Iron Fist to control the State, Iraq might fall apart in Anerchy (sort of like Germany after the First World War)
So on one hand half the world is crying for him to take his troops out and when he does he is to be condemned.Again, you have misunderstood my point. I am not upset at the fact that power was returned to the Iraqis, but rather upset at how it was returned in a very hasty and un-organized fasion. They could have done a much better job, such as making sure of it before invading the country.

EDIT: BTW, I personally am not part of 'half the world' that wanted him to take his troops out. I felt it was his responsibility to clean up the mess he made, rather than letting someone else do it.

[crisis]

It might not be finalised but we clearly can see that ever since the war, the country has been going downhill.
There are aspect that are definitely going downhill. Being rid of the Bath party is going uphil though.

And no, I d o not say it is better to leave a shitty situation.I beg to differ. First of all, most of these 'terrorists' are more like resistance fighters (ie: when France was occupied in WWII). These people are upset, not because Saddam is gone, but rather because of the fact that they are occupied.
There certainly appear to be some who are from the Saddams military according to something I saw on tv recently. Naturally Saddam henchman would have plenty to be bitter about. But there are also terrorist organisations who want to exploite the situation while the world is focussed on Iraq. They are killing everyone, Muslims included.


I am not upset at the fact that power was returned to the Iraqis, but rather upset at how it was returned in a very hasty and un-organized fasion. They could have done a much better job, such as making sure of it before invading the country.
I think the US probably had an idea of who and how they wanted Iraq governed by. The return of power has not been hasty. The timeline was prescribed and failry closely adhered to. The world and the people who you speak about in Iraq who want the invading forces out have been baying for this to happen sooner. The US has had to take a lot of heat by staying there for this long. I would like to see the Saudi proposal for Arab states to contribute to the internal security of Iraq.

[d-quik]

You say it as if to disprove one of my points, when everything you said (aside from your opinion that it was not done in a haste) I completly agree to.

[crisis]

You say it as if to disprove one of my points, when everything you said (aside from your opinion that it was not done in a haste) I completly agree to.
I am neither pro US or anti I try to see both sides. So where I agree with you , I simply agree. I am not trying to disprove, just dicsuss.

[d-quik]

It just seems like it. And I realised you were neither pro or con USA.

[cls12vg30]

I beg to differ, presidents can create or lose jobs. How? By the way they handle the economy. In a strong economy, people experience what is called consumer confidence, which means they are earning well, feel secure in their jobs and hence they go out and spend money not just on what they need but also on what they want according to their possibilities. This creates jobs how? Well, competative businesses sell more, begin to grow and thus hire more people. In a weak economy the opposite happens, poeple start spending less, companies make far less and begin cutting their fixed costs, and the first thing most companies cut is labor cost ie jobs. So yes, a president can affect the job market. I should know, I'm a business broker.

Okaaaaay....you beg to differ, say the President "handles" the economy, then go on to talk about jobs in strong and weak economies, without ever even trying to explain HOW exactly the President of the United States has determined whether the economy is strong or weak. The recent recession was felt all over the world. It has affected the Japanese far more severely and for longer than it has the U.S. In the modern day of freer global trade and economic interdependence, the economy of every country is affected, for better or worse, by the countless variables of not only their own economic, social, and political situtations, but all the variables of the rest of the countries, too. So if you'll please explain how a President, Prime Minister, or any other person can possibly hope to hold even a few of the strings of this giant global economic puppet show?

[Matra et Alpine]

So if you'll please explain how a President, Prime Minister, or any other person can possibly hope to hold even a few of the strings of this giant global economic puppet show?
BUSH; We don't like that your steel is cheaper than ours, so have some quotas and tariffs.

an "attempt" to control the global economy.

The WTO pointed out it was illegal.
It was ignored.

so......

EUROPE: Get lost, our industry is less subsidised than yours. take away the restricion or we'll block your goods. With a 'nice' twist .....
(from Dec 2003)The EU had carefully drawn up a list of products to target, which are produced in states expected to be the key battlegrounds in the November 2004 presidential election, such as citrus fruit from Florida.

BUSH: The quota helped the US industry and economic measures have changed and it's time to end the restrictions.

NEVER once was illegality mentioned or the European quotas !!!

So governments DO try to "pull the strings" of the world economy, but political expediency always seems to come out on top !!!!!

Steel is a $100s of BILLION dollar worldwide business

[taz_rocks_miami]

BUSH; We don't like that your steel is cheaper than ours, so have some quotas and tariffs.

an "attempt" to control the global economy.

The WTO pointed out it was illegal.
It was ignored.

so......

EUROPE: Get lost, our industry is less subsidised than yours. take away the restricion or we'll block your goods. With a 'nice' twist .....
(from Dec 2003)The EU had carefully drawn up a list of products to target, which are produced in states expected to be the key battlegrounds in the November 2004 presidential election, such as citrus fruit from Florida.

BUSH: The quota helped the US industry and economic measures have changed and it's time to end the restrictions.

NEVER once was illegality mentioned or the European quotas !!!

So governments DO try to "pull the strings" of the world economy, but political expediency always seems to come out on top !!!!!

Steel is a $100s of BILLION dollar worldwide business


Thanks Matra, that's an exelent example. There are other things that can help or hurt a country's economy, taxes (who gets taxed and how much), trade agreements, interest rates and counless other things that govenments have a direct hand in. This space isn't big enough to give you a macro economics leason.

So before you go out and vote this year, pay attention what both candidates have to say about their economic policies and don't just consider if they will help you but the rest of the country. Becuase if what you say is true that heads of state have nothing to do with a country's economic well bieng, then what's the point of them talking about what they are going to do?

Taz.

[Renesis]

oooh politics!

My girlfriend showed me this videogame the other day.
Just as a heads up its extremely anti-bush, and full of propaganda
but i thought it was really informative, lots of factual info (biased, but informative)
http://www.emogame.com/bushgame.html

[crimefighter196]

Any of you still confused, still not knowing where to go.
I'm an American, well actually a Naturalized American, an Immigrant.
also a former US Air Force Service man.

* I'm still unclear when a country as generous like America be hated so much by the rest of the world.
* Why a country with the most freedom, and tolerance be hated like this.
* Why a country who takes hundreds of immigrants from all over the world and accept them in its borders (illegals and legal ).

* Why a country even with its all military might does not start conquering other countries,, yet the world think of it as imperialistic.

Less the rest of the world is contaminated , like the country where I came from.

its not America that needs to understand the world, its the world that needs to understand what real Freedom is all about.

who to vote:
Find out who Osama Bin Laden wants to be the president, then
vote for the other guy.

Find out who Jacque Chirac hates, then vote for the
other guy.

your either a Muslim or an Infidel ,,, figure it out Brainiacs

so much for the Religion of Peace....

[crimefighter196]

oooh politics!

My girlfriend showed me this videogame the other day.
Just as a heads up its extremely anti-bush, and full of propaganda
but i thought it was really informative, lots of factual info (biased, but informative)
http://www.emogame.com/bushgame.html

Biased but Informative ??

dude, Bias is fallsity in itself. I guess informative, but unreliable at best.

[Coventrysucks]

its not America that needs to understand the world, its the world that needs to understand what real Freedom is all about.

America does need to understand the rest of the world.
It is because of the arrogant attitude that "America is the best, therefore we shouldn't have to understand the rest of the world" that you get into all the trouble in the first place.

[crimefighter196]

Thanks Matra, that's an exelent example. There are other things that can help or hurt a country's economy, taxes (who gets taxed and how much), trade agreements, interest rates and counless other things that govenments have a direct hand in. This space isn't big enough to give you a macro economics leason.

So before you go out and vote this year, pay attention what both candidates have to say about their economic policies and don't just consider if they will help you but the rest of the country. Becuase if what you say is true that heads of state have nothing to do with a country's economic well bieng, then what's the point of them talking about what they are going to do?

Taz.

"don't just consider if they will help you but the rest of the country."

got to say, your words ring so true.

I may add that one should also consider the future, as one make decisions in the present.

I have told my wife once, as she asks why I'm such a 'cheap skate', I responded: "I'm a cheap skate, because I am hopefull person, that tommorow I may not die, but tommorow I am sure to have to pay the bills"


So much is said about the War in IRAQ and how the entire process is done.

All agrees that Sadam is bad news to all, though not a direct terror threath, his downfall gives free nations a freedom to control the areas where the Terrorist hide, trade weapons, and maybe teach to their extremist views, as well as practice their shooting skills on locals.

But one thing came about all this mass chaos and death, that it be better that at times things like this happens, it opens up old wounds that seem to never heal,, maybe just maybe this time we can start to heal.

We would not have known that Sadam had no weapons of mass destruction,, heck good thing we found that the he did not have one,, otherwise we would have been left guessing ,,, right ? He sure is was not willing to tell,,, nor prove.

We would not have found US, France, Germany, China had been selling Arms to IRAQ even with the Sanctions ..

We would not have found out that the UN was missappropriating funds while the Children in IRAQ goes hungry.

I would have live my life not knowing that I'm Infidel and deserve to die !!!

Wow ,, Knowledge is Power .... What say you ???

[crimefighter196]

America does need to understand the rest of the world.
It is because of the arrogant attitude that "America is the best, therefore we shouldn't have to understand the rest of the world" that you get into all the trouble in the first place.

The world see America having an Arrogant attitude.

Arrogant --> free economic based society like America really sucks, citizens actually owns multiple homes and there is so much food, poor people are obbesed.

Arrogant --> I heard in America they let their women drive and become educated and rich.

Arrogant --> I heard America are so arrogantly rich they give money away to the rest of the world,, in the billiions

Arrogant -- > America is sooo aroogant they make sure that rogue states don't kill each other,, why can't they just let them African countries obliterate each other.

Daaamn those Arrogant Americans,,,, I heard they let Illegal aliens in their country,,, how dare them Americans,,,, they are soo Hospitable..

Arrogant Americans are ,, I hate them Freedom crap,, I heard you can say whatever you want to say in America ..

Arrogant Americans even give criminals their own right ,, where I came from they shoot them on the spot ..

Stupid Americans ,,,,, they let non US citizens vote !!,, How arrogant is that !!

ETC !! ,, I totally Agree with you,, Americans are arrogant ...

I'm an American, I'm a Naturalized American, I am Arrogant and Proud to be an American.

[Matra et Alpine]

Any of you still confused, still not knowing where to go.
I'm an American, well actually a Naturalized American, an Immigrant.
also a former US Air Force Service man.

* I'm still unclear when a country as generous like America be hated so much by the rest of the world.
Define "generous". Cite examples where US has 'given' with no strings.
Explain why USA has withheld UN payments for important support programmes in 3rd world and elsewhere.


* Why a country with the most freedom, and tolerance be hated like this.
Perhaps because you beleive your own propaganda.
The US defines freedom on a written "constitution" and anyone without one isn't 'free'. THAT is sooo wrong. The UK for example has the Magna Carta at the heart of a 600 year old legal system with plenty of freedoms, checks and controls. France has an advanced society based on "Libertie, Equalitie, Egalitie" ( btw that translates to LIBERTY, EQUALITY, FRATERNITY - that last one is so often forgotten in a legal system :) )
So how is US more free ?

* Why a country who takes hundreds of immigrants from all over the world and accept them in its borders (illegals and legal ).
Lots of countries accept immigration, so other than quantity this is a meaningless point and typical of the "propoganda of government" in the US.
Largest country, largest GDP (largest debt :) ) and plenty of land and growth opportunity. Of course it attracts more. There's not a lot of land or businesses not already been owned and operated from before the US was discovered. Clearly it won't be as "attractive".


* Why a country even with its all military might does not start conquering other countries,, yet the world think of it as imperialistic.
Because it was and IS but uses commercial imperialism.
Suggest a history study on the expansion of US into British Commonwealth.
Look at protectionism, the US has been one of the worst over the century.

Less the rest of the world is contaminated , like the country where I came from.
Not sure what you mean ?

its not America that needs to understand the world, its the world that needs to understand what real Freedom is all about.
I'm afraid in general I think you are gravely mistaken as most of the weorld does know about America through media NOT controlled by big business and the 'dumbest viewer' focus. It's the US that knows so little of the rest of the world and sometimes acts in ignorance and sometimes arrogance.


who to vote:
Find out who Osama Bin Laden wants to be the president, then
vote for the other guy.

Find out who Jacque Chirac hates, then vote for the
other guy.

your either a Muslim or an Infidel ,,, figure it out Brainiacs

so much for the Religion of Peace....
huh ??

Anyway counter to the 'brainiacs' question .. you're either American Freedom Fighter or Terrorist ?

Western approach can equally be described in blank and whit eterms as negatively as that Muslim comment. Few muslims would make that stupind comment of yours, shows HUGE lack of understanding of the world.

[Matra et Alpine]

The world see America having an Arrogant attitude .....

... lots deleted ........ ( I thought it was clever sarcasm to start with and realised it coulnd't be :) .....
I'm an American, I'm a Naturalized American, I am Arrogant and Proud to be an American.
From the info you posted, you read too many right-wing papers and TV shows.
For everything you cited please spend the time to bring an example suporting the viewpoint and an example disproving it.

The Greeks taught us a lot about how to study information, to philosphise and to understand better. Take a leaf from their techniques and provide an analysis as suggested above.

It will save US time repeating old truths and will better expand your understanding of the world and the actions US government, insustry and citizens have taken.

[Coventrysucks]

The world see America having an Arrogant attitude.

Arrogant --> free economic based society like America really sucks, citizens actually owns multiple homes and there is so much food, poor people are obbesed.

Arrogant --> I heard in America they let their women drive and become educated and rich.

Arrogant --> I heard America are so arrogantly rich they give money away to the rest of the world,, in the billiions

Arrogant -- > America is sooo aroogant they make sure that rogue states don't kill each other,, why can't they just let them African countries obliterate each other.

Daaamn those Arrogant Americans,,,, I heard they let Illegal aliens in their country,,, how dare them Americans,,,, they are soo Hospitable..

Arrogant Americans are ,, I hate them Freedom crap,, I heard you can say whatever you want to say in America ..

Arrogant Americans even give criminals their own right ,, where I came from they shoot them on the spot ..

Stupid Americans ,,,,, they let non US citizens vote !!,, How arrogant is that !!

ETC !! ,, I totally Agree with you,, Americans are arrogant ...

I'm an American, I'm a Naturalized American, I am Arrogant and Proud to be an American.

I know America does all that, but in poorer countries where this information isn't freely available to the general population, those with influance can corrupt the image of America, by purely focussing on America's mistakes and bad points.

Therefore you get countries where the general population thinks America is a greedy imperialist country that wants to colonise the world by stealth, installing US supported governments.

Then, to completely dissprove this image, your glorious leader decides to invade a country with a lot of oil, and provide lots of business oppertunities to American companies to "restructure" the aftermath, then installs a US supported government...

You can see the problem here.

I know that the USA and "coalition of the willing" invaded Iraq to get rid of Saddam Hussein, and possibly some terrorists who may/ may not have been there, and it was in the interests of the American people to prevent another 11/9 (do you really believe that your government can stop a really determined effort by the terrorists?)

However, the people of Iraq don't care about the safety of American citizens, they care about having no water or power because the Americans bombed the infrastructure of the country during the invasion, they care about being blown up in a roadside car bomb planted by insurgents, who are there because of the Americans. They care about having an occupying force swaggering about their country, telling them what to do.

America isn't as "free" as you'd like to think. I doubt I will ever be visiting the USA again unless I really have too.
I am not too keen on being "tagged" by the security services.

[cls12vg30]

Yeah Coventry if I were coming from another country I wouldn't want to visit the US right now either. All this security BS is really getting to me, especially this week with the terror alert in NY, and the cops with M-4's and MP-5's on the streets and subways. Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with automatic weapons in public places, except when they're in the hands of what amount to government shock troops. All to give people the illusion that they're "safe" from terrorism. How the heck is it that all these morons will worry and whine and wring their hands about "fear of terrorism", but will think nothing of firing up their car in the morning and heading out on the street where they are 100x more likely to die a grisly death than by terrorism?! And then they accept their dignity being violated at the airport, overt and covert surveillance of their lives, etc., all in the name of security, which is an illusion. Is that illusion really worth giving up your freedom, bit by bit? It's making me sick. I'll worry about my own safety, the government can piss off.
Don't get me wrong, I'm still voting for Bush. He's definitely the lesser of two evils. Kerry and those like him also seek to have control over the lives of the people, but they use even more insidious means. For the time being, these candidates and this government are all we have to work with. Hopefully over the next couple decades we can gradually drive out both the right-wing authoritarianism (The Daddy State) and left-wing collectivism (The Mommy State) and bring more libertarian ideals back into our government.

[d-quik]

crimefighter, your love for America is indeed, making you very very ignorant. If you claim you are not ignorant, you will realise the amount of reasons to like America doesn't even compare to the amount of reasons to hate the country. You realise what the United States is doing to everyone else outside their country. I really do not wish to sound immature but for everytime you state a reason to like the United States, I can list two reasons to hate the United States.

If you think that everyone should love and embrace the United States, listen to what you are saying. Considering that you know that the majority of the world hates the United States, why can't you understand there are reasons for that. It should mean someting to you when the majority of over 6 billion people share an opinion. The ENTIRE WORLD can't ALL be ignorant of America. We understand it. Do you understand how the United States operates outside your country? I don't believe your an American, and I believe you are heavily misinformed. I realsed all but one of the pro-USA points you listed are what they do INSIDE the country. Remove your head out of the gutter, son.

[crisis]

The world see America having an Arrogant attitude.

Arrogant --> free economic based society like America really sucks, citizens actually owns multiple homes and there is so much food, poor people are obbesed.

Arrogant --> I heard in America they let their women drive and become educated and rich.

Arrogant --> I heard America are so arrogantly rich they give money away to the rest of the world,, in the billiions

Arrogant -- > America is sooo aroogant they make sure that rogue states don't kill each other,, why can't they just let them African countries obliterate each other.

Daaamn those Arrogant Americans,,,, I heard they let Illegal aliens in their country,,, how dare them Americans,,,, they are soo Hospitable..

Arrogant Americans are ,, I hate them Freedom crap,, I heard you can say whatever you want to say in America ..

Arrogant Americans even give criminals their own right ,, where I came from they shoot them on the spot ..

Stupid Americans ,,,,, they let non US citizens vote !!,, How arrogant is that !!

ETC !! ,, I totally Agree with you,, Americans are arrogant ...

I'm an American, I'm a Naturalized American, I am Arrogant and Proud to be an American.
Your full of outrageous generalisations. The world does not hate America. To criticise your governments policies does not mean your country is hated. I beleive it is a kind of freedom. It is not as black and white as Bush would like to beleive. The world is not with us or against us. There must be moderate elements to give balance. I do grow weary of the type of arrogance that you paradoxically purport that the US has some kind of exclusive ownership of freedom. I consider Australia to enjoy freedom as much as anywhere. I certainly dont feel inhibited. The fact is all Americans dont share your opinion, all Americans are not arrogant and many Americans do understand the rest of the world. These arguments often degenerate into wild generalisations. America is not an entity. Are we talking about the government, the genereal population, a faction, the military, the media, business? Im sure each category has vastly different agendas and outlooks. I was once criticised on another forum for defending the US in one post and questioning it in another. The American who sprayed me couldnt understand how I could not pick a side. I never will.

[crimefighter196]

From the info you posted, you read too many right-wing papers and TV shows.
For everything you cited please spend the time to bring an example suporting the viewpoint and an example disproving it.

The Greeks taught us a lot about how to study information, to philosphise and to understand better. Take a leaf from their techniques and provide an analysis as suggested above.

It will save US time repeating old truths and will better expand your understanding of the world and the actions US government, insustry and citizens have taken.

your advice is appreciated. unfortunately Mr. English Teacher, I am limited in education.

I lived in the Island of Jolo in the Phillipines where almost daily the practice of beheading by the Muslims is common. Where Christians are freely abused and decapitated like chickens.

There were also Communist elements where they practically kidnapped teenagers to indoctrinate.

This is where my education started.

I did not learn to hate them , I learned to fear them.

Philosophise , I know not, not to believe what I hear and only belive half of what I see.

Know that every book one reads is an idea by another man to influence another.

Know that the News / paper or TV is just a digest of what it really was, and is filtered and or enhanced by bias.

Since I believe half of what I see,,, I only saw half of the hatred for America, thus I am condemed to by chance to see more of it.

Hatred to which I am forced to understand. After being raised in the world of hatred,,, I know it has no real meaning, nor a reason to be understood .

Hatred is irrational, and does not merit understanding.

A country that is composed of every citizen of the world, to be considered ignorant of other cultures ,,,,, is truly a farce..

[crimefighter196]

Your full of outrageous generalisations. The world does not hate America. To criticise your governments policies does not mean your country is hated. I beleive it is a kind of freedom. It is not as black and white as Bush would like to beleive. The world is not with us or against us. There must be moderate elements to give balance. I do grow weary of the type of arrogance that you paradoxically purport that the US has some kind of exclusive ownership of freedom. I consider Australia to enjoy freedom as much as anywhere. I certainly dont feel inhibited. The fact is all Americans dont share your opinion, all Americans are not arrogant and many Americans do understand the rest of the world. These arguments often degenerate into wild generalisations. America is not an entity. Are we talking about the government, the genereal population, a faction, the military, the media, business? Im sure each category has vastly different agendas and outlooks. I was once criticised on another forum for defending the US in one post and questioning it in another. The American who sprayed me couldnt understand how I could not pick a side. I never will.

I am limited by language, and that generalizations is but a given to express some thoughts.

It is a gift, Freedom that is not a God give right, it is but a human imagination, a creation.

We are free when we are comfortable of a certain state.

America is definitely not its government, America is its people. The Government represents the people.

America is an idea, that men of common thoughts came together to form a nation.


And yes I agree, the world is not against us, but the world is againts our open ly aggressive capitalist policy.

Unlike the rest of the world whose policies are but hidden agendas of the same,,,, primarily domination.

We must never forget man's humanity, but one must also realize man's inate brutality.

America brutally enforces its will on others as others will, and shall imposed their will on other country,,,, but in a suttle ways.

It is black and white, your either an Infidel or a beliver,, if you claim to be or believe neither, your in the unfortunate position of being by default an Infidel.

You are either a greedy Capitalist, or a Socialist who wish to take the sweat of others to be given to those who wish to work not.

If your in Between, you must be Lazy as a rock !!

[crimefighter196]

Yeah Coventry if I were coming from another country I wouldn't want to visit the US right now either. All this security BS is really getting to me, especially this week with the terror alert in NY, and the cops with M-4's and MP-5's on the streets and subways. Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with automatic weapons in public places, except when they're in the hands of what amount to government shock troops. All to give people the illusion that they're "safe" from terrorism. How the heck is it that all these morons will worry and whine and wring their hands about "fear of terrorism", but will think nothing of firing up their car in the morning and heading out on the street where they are 100x more likely to die a grisly death than by terrorism?! And then they accept their dignity being violated at the airport, overt and covert surveillance of their lives, etc., all in the name of security, which is an illusion. Is that illusion really worth giving up your freedom, bit by bit? It's making me sick. I'll worry about my own safety, the government can piss off.
Don't get me wrong, I'm still voting for Bush. He's definitely the lesser of two evils. Kerry and those like him also seek to have control over the lives of the people, but they use even more insidious means. For the time being, these candidates and this government are all we have to work with. Hopefully over the next couple decades we can gradually drive out both the right-wing authoritarianism (The Daddy State) and left-wing collectivism (The Mommy State) and bring more libertarian ideals back into our government.


Definitely agree, I'm sick of it myself,, its disgusting.

Why all the warnings, why does the gov't just do their Job ..

There is one issue though that is quite disconcerning to me about comparing car accidents and fear of dying by terrorism.

When I turn my car on and drive 100x, I am responsible for my deaths and the deaths of others, and hopefully soo it would be unintentional.

When a fanatic trys to blow me up and my bretheren to pieces intentionaly because I am considered an insect, then that would be totally terrifying to me.

The chances of one dying from a terror attack, very slim, ,, traffic accident,, higly likely. This is true.

The chances of Thousands of Innocent lives of babies, women etc dying in a terrorist attack,,, very Likely,, I don't think I can kill 3000 of people with my Honda Civic ..

be more observant , and read less propaganda,, you will realize America is not as Right wing nuts as you think ,,,, aparently Old ladies are still being searched in Airports ,, the most unlikely suspects :-)

[crimefighter196]

crimefighter, your love for America is indeed, making you very very ignorant. If you claim you are not ignorant, you will realise the amount of reasons to like America doesn't even compare to the amount of reasons to hate the country. You realise what the United States is doing to everyone else outside their country. I really do not wish to sound immature but for everytime you state a reason to like the United States, I can list two reasons to hate the United States.

If you think that everyone should love and embrace the United States, listen to what you are saying. Considering that you know that the majority of the world hates the United States, why can't you understand there are reasons for that. It should mean someting to you when the majority of over 6 billion people share an opinion. The ENTIRE WORLD can't ALL be ignorant of America. We understand it. Do you understand how the United States operates outside your country? I don't believe your an American, and I believe you are heavily misinformed. I realsed all but one of the pro-USA points you listed are what they do INSIDE the country. Remove your head out of the gutter, son.

I do claim to be very ignorant of many things. I am by far probably the most uneducated, poster in this bulletin board. I came only to sell my M3 but look where it got me :-)

I am not interested in the number of ways to prove America to be lesser than others, really to those who loves America, it should matter not.

What matters though is what Americans feel about itself.

What can I say,,, find another hobby ??? quit counting points againts America ,, and pros about America.

[crisis]

your advice is appreciated. unfortunately Mr. English Teacher, I am limited in education.

I lived in the Island of Jolo in the Phillipines where almost daily the practice of beheading by the Muslims is common. Where Christians are freely abused and decapitated like chickens.

There were also Communist elements where they practically kidnapped teenagers to indoctrinate.

This is where my education started.

I did not learn to hate them , I learned to fear them.

Philosophise , I know not, not to believe what I hear and only belive half of what I see.

Know that every book one reads is an idea by another man to influence another.

Know that the News / paper or TV is just a digest of what it really was, and is filtered and or enhanced by bias.

Since I believe half of what I see,,, I only saw half of the hatred for America, thus I am condemed to by chance to see more of it.

Hatred to which I am forced to understand. After being raised in the world of hatred,,, I know it has no real meaning, nor a reason to be understood .

Hatred is irrational, and does not merit understanding.

A country that is composed of every citizen of the world, to be considered ignorant of other cultures ,,,,, is truly a farce..
Well put. +1 although that seems a little irrelevant for something of this gravity. Once more a new member who can enlighten us as to how the other half live.

[crisis]

America is definitely not its government, America is its people. The Government represents the people.

That is somewhat my point. The fact that many may question the US governments, actions, motives and honesty does not mean those same people have issues with the American people.

[Matra et Alpine]

I am limited by language, and that generalizations is but a given to express some thoughts.
That's OK, it does explain the shock some of your comments give.

You have had a terrible experience as have many others in countries all over the world wherever bigots, racists and religious extremists of all forms exist.



Sorry but you've not had enough experience and there are hundreds of nations in the world who have no desire to domiate and MANY who have the understanding of the "common good and commoon need" to put others needs first.
[QUOTE]It is black and white, your either an Infidel or a beliver,, if you claim to be or believe neither, your in the unfortunate position of being by default an Infidel.
This reflects the horrible past you have endured and does NOT reflect the real world.

You are either a greedy Capitalist, or a Socialist who wish to take the sweat of others to be given to those who wish to work not.
That sounds like indoctrination.
The explanation of a socialist is so far removed from the real goals of most of the broad spectrum of socialism. The extreme left is as dangerous as unbridled capitalism ( where ENRON "stole" the money elderly people invested. Those elderly people now have no way to support themselves )

If your in Between, you must be Lazy as a rock !!
The world is not black and white.
I work very hard, but I also share my benefits with those who are disadvantaged and help THEM to achiev higher goals.

In a world where person A has 100 and person B has 10 of something but it takes having 20 to be able to end suffering. We woudl all hope that persons A would give 10 to person B. After all the difference will not be noticable to Person A and make a huge difference to Person B. There we go socialism - or I prefer the French term "equalitie, egalitie, fraternitie" - the last part being important and empowers us to CHOSE to help those less fortunate than ourselves.

I suspect at the moment you are 'drunk' on the freedoms having moved to America. Hopefully you will be able to find out more and realise the huge breadth of optiosn in life in the world and recognise the benefits of other sytems. THEN you can truly know you've made a choice to live with the bets for you.

For example, I am always shocked at being asked to carry a card in my wallet for medical coverage as I may not be picked up by an ambulance if I didn't have medical cover. ANYONE having an accident in Europe will be taken to the best facility in the immediate area for treatment with no questions asked and costs covered by an inter-government agreement for an extension of our respective National health systems. Perhaps if you know someone who can't afford private medical care and has serious illness you're view may adjust.

[cls12vg30]

In a world where person A has 100 and person B has 10 of something but it takes having 20 to be able to end suffering. We woudl all hope that persons A would give 10 to person B. After all the difference will not be noticable to Person A and make a huge difference to Person B. There we go socialism

That's not socialism. That's charity, which is not only good for the stomach of person B but the soul of person A. (I'm not speaking religiously, rather just the fulfillment that most of us get from helping our fellow man without expecting anything in return.)

If the government came along and took 20 away from person A at gunpoint or under other threat, then the govt. gave 8 to person B, and used the other 12 to fund its own bureaucracy, that's a more accurate representation of welfare and most other socialist government programs. The other advantage to giving person B 8 rather than 10 is that it keeps person B right on the edge of starvation constantly, so he can do nothing that might risk losing that needed 8 from the government. He will always accept whatever regulation or legislation that government introduces, and will always use his vote to keep those giving him the 8 in power. He will not be encouraged to go out and try and earn 20 or 30 on his own, because to do so would risk the guaranteed 8 that he has come to depend on so much. It may take 20 to end suffering, but it only took 8 to make person B a slave.
And this is exactly what has been happening in my country and many others for decades.

"It" could be welfare, medical care, it doesn't matter. Every time you depend on the government for something, you have made yourself that much more a slave. It boggles my mind how much people around the world seem to trust their governments. Yeah, they only killed 170 million people in the last century, of course we can trust them. Government is the bane of mankind.

[henk4]

Every time you depend on the government for something, you have made yourself that much more a slave. It boggles my mind how much people around the world seem to trust their governments. Yeah, they only killed 170 million people in the last century, of course we can trust them. Government is the bane of mankind.

Here speaks the true anarchist, praise be on you ;)

[Matra et Alpine]

That's not socialism. That's charity, which is not only good for the stomach of person B but the soul of person A. (I'm not speaking religiously, rather just the fulfillment that most of us get from helping our fellow man without expecting anything in return.)

You have an extrmemly biased view of socialism

If I vote in a socialist government it is because I want them to enact socialist policies and provide that service.

You seem to think socialism is a disease or somehow takes over.
It's not, it's because we WANT it.

And not because we're all poor and want "free" but because we were brought up to be caring and careful and to try to improve everyones lot.

If the government came along and took 20 away from person A at gunpoint or under other threat, then the govt. gave 8 to person B, and used the other 12 to fund its own bureaucracy, that's a more accurate representation of welfare and most other socialist government programs.
No, that's an example of poor givernance.
BIG difference.

The other advantage to giving person B 8 rather than 10 is that it keeps person B right on the edge of starvation constantly, so he can do nothing that might risk losing that needed 8 from the government. He will always accept whatever regulation or legislation that government introduces, and will always use his vote to keep those giving him the 8 in power. He will not be encouraged to go out and try and earn 20 or 30 on his own, because to do so would risk the guaranteed 8 that he has come to depend on so much. It may take 20 to end suffering, but it only took 8 to make person B a slave.
again that's poor governance.
Either do a policy to ensure no deprivation or don't.
Any government elected on the promise to do it who then only did half of it deserves to be voted down and removed from government.
It happende to Calaghan's government in the UK in the 70s.
Vote of no confidence and then out on his ear and a general election called.

And this is exactly what has been happening in my country and many others for decades.

"It" could be welfare, medical care, it doesn't matter. Every time you depend on the government for something, you have made yourself that much more a slave. It boggles my mind how much people around the world seem to trust their governments. Yeah, they only killed 170 million people in the last century, of course we can trust them. Government is the bane of mankind.
Well if they don't vote for the government they want then the blame's theirs.

Government doesn't last for a century so it's pointeless to suggest that something different will be terrible tomorrow because another one was terrible years ago. "killed 170million" ? And how many 'saved' ???

I think you may have missed the workd "OUR" at the start of your last sentence :)

[Egg Nog]

Crimefighter: This is copied over from another thread (that just died), and I feel that it would be pretty relevent here....

-----------------------------------------------



Do you realize that the U.S. has had a part in or by herself liberated more people than any other country in the world?

Of course they have, according to them. The US, dozens of times, has helped leaders get overthrown in favour of their own national interests. It's been happening since the late forties, with some example countires like Laos, Honduras, Haiti, Liberia, Chad, Grenada, Fiji, Cambodia, Venezuela, and many others. Many supported coups have been in favour of governments that will allow easier US access to resources and labour.



Do you realize that the U.S. gives far more in aid to other countries than any other country in the world?

Do you realize that the economic pressure that the US has put on the world's underdeveloped countries is one of the major reasons why they've gotten stuck in their situations in the first place? The aid provided by the US does not come anywhere near close to offsetting the economic stress and dependence that they've influenced. And besides, it would only be expected that the US provides more aid than any other country. The US has the world's largest economy, by a longshot.

Here's a quote from a site looking at the United Nations agreements for rich countires to provide international aid:

"USA's aid, in terms of percentage of their GNP is already lowest of any industrialized nation in the world, though paradoxically in the last three years, their dollar amount has been the highest."



Do you realize that the U.S. accepts more immigrants than any other country in the world.

The US is the most economically successful country in the world, and the average income there is larger than anywhere else. They are the the flagship of the developed world. It only seems natural that this would be the case.



How about some praise for the U.S., instead of making ridiculous statements like "the U.S.A. has supported terrorism in the past."

That's not a ridiculous statement at all. Especially in Central America and Southeast Asia, the US has given weapons and finanical support that have killed hundreds of thousands of people in crimes of humanity. The US has also directly killed many hundreds of thousands more. This is the truth. You want some examples? What about the carpet bombing of Cambodia, and support of the Khmer Rouge, which eventually lead to millions of dead civilians? What about sending Indonesia all of the weapons that they needed to complete the East Timor Genocide, which resulted in the death of 200,000? What about the support and arming of the Nicaragua's government illegally put in place by the USA so that over 80,000 dissidents could be killed off, or the Arming and support of Guatemala's government death squads that killed nearly 300,000 people over the course of two decades, right into the late '90s? What about arming and supporting the rebels in Angola between 1974 and 1992, when they killed 650,000? What about the CIA-sponsored terrorism in Lebanon in the mid-80s that killed thousands? What about the training and financial backing for El Salvador's government death squads, which killed nearly 80,000? What about arming and financially supporting the Turkish regime that killed over 27,000 Kurds and dissidents in the mid-90s? What about the My Lai massacre? What about support for urban bombers in Italy during in 1980? What about carpet bombing the civilians of Vietnam and Laos in the '60s and '70s, resulting in over 2.5 million deaths?

As I said earlier, I'm here to offer a different side to the story, and that's why I'm choosing not to praise the US. I've enjoyed every time I've visited the US (except one when I went for a funeral), and I think that Americans as people are kind and welcoming. However, there's already lots of praise out there, and not enough is known about the gloomier apects of the US, especially historically. What I personally not like is the US government's foreign, humanitarian, and environmental policy. I like the US as a country, and they have done many great things for the world. I just want to make sure you see both sides of the picture.

[crisis]

For example, I am always shocked at being asked to carry a card in my wallet for medical coverage as I may not be picked up by an ambulance if I didn't have medical cover. ANYONE having an accident in Europe will be taken to the best facility in the immediate area for treatment with no questions asked and costs covered by an inter-government agreement for an extension of our respective National health systems. Perhaps if you know someone who can't afford private medical care and has serious illness you're view may adjust.
If you are talking about the US, it is also worth relfecting that in some countries there are no aumbulances to not pick you up. A bad health system is still a health system. We should always strive for something better though.

[taz_rocks_miami]

Crimefighter: This is copied over from another thread (that just died), and I feel that it would be pretty relevent here....

-----------------------------------------------



Of course they have, according to them. The US, dozens of times, has helped leaders get overthrown in favour of their own national interests. It's been happening since the late forties, with some example countires like Laos, Honduras, Haiti, Liberia, Chad, Grenada, Fiji, Cambodia, Venezuela, and many others. Many supported coups have been in favour of governments that will allow easier US access to resources and labour.



Do you realize that the economic pressure that the US has put on the world's underdeveloped countries is one of the major reasons why they've gotten stuck in their situations in the first place? The aid provided by the US does not come anywhere near close to offsetting the economic stress and dependence that they've influenced. And besides, it would only be expected that the US provides more aid than any other country. The US has the world's largest economy, by a longshot.

Here's a quote from a site looking at the United Nations agreements for rich countires to provide international aid:

"USA's aid, in terms of percentage of their GNP is already lowest of any industrialized nation in the world, though paradoxically in the last three years, their dollar amount has been the highest."



The US is the most economically successful country in the world, and the average income there is larger than anywhere else. They are the the flagship of the developed world. It only seems natural that this would be the case.



That's not a ridiculous statement at all. Especially in Central America and Southeast Asia, the US has given weapons and finanical support that have killed hundreds of thousands of people in crimes of humanity. The US has also directly killed many hundreds of thousands more. This is the truth. You want some examples? What about the carpet bombing of Cambodia, and support of the Khmer Rouge, which eventually lead to millions of dead civilians? What about sending Indonesia all of the weapons that they needed to complete the East Timor Genocide, which resulted in the death of 200,000? What about the support and arming of the Nicaragua's government illegally put in place by the USA so that over 80,000 dissidents could be killed off, or the Arming and support of Guatemala's government death squads that killed nearly 300,000 people over the course of two decades, right into the late '90s? What about arming and supporting the rebels in Angola between 1974 and 1992, when they killed 650,000? What about the CIA-sponsored terrorism in Lebanon in the mid-80s that killed thousands? What about the training and financial backing for El Salvador's government death squads, which killed nearly 80,000? What about arming and financially supporting the Turkish regime that killed over 27,000 Kurds and dissidents in the mid-90s? What about the My Lai massacre? What about support for urban bombers in Italy during in 1980? What about carpet bombing the civilians of Vietnam and Laos in the '60s and '70s, resulting in over 2.5 million deaths?

As I said earlier, I'm here to offer a different side to the story, and that's why I'm choosing not to praise the US. I've enjoyed every time I've visited the US (except one when I went for a funeral), and I think that Americans as people are kind and welcoming. However, there's already lots of praise out there, and not enough is known about the gloomier apects of the US, especially historically. What I personally not like is the US government's foreign, humanitarian, and environmental policy. I like the US as a country, and they have done many great things for the world. I just want to make sure you see both sides of the picture.

I have to admit that US past and present US governments have done and still do some questionable things that have nothing to do with "helping others" as it tries to promote and protect it's own interests. But let's be honest here, before the US was in a economic, politacal, industrial and military possition to do so, it was the Europians (England, Spain, France, Portugal and so on) who did the very same things.

I'm not saying it's right, then or now, but you who criticize us for doing so, take a look back at your own history and reflect on wether or not your nation was guilty of similar practices. And more importantly, what do you propose? Let's pretend the US disapered tomorrow, someone else would take it's place, what do you propose to keep that nation from doing the same things all over again?

Taz.

[Matra et Alpine]

I'm not saying it's right, then or now, but you who criticize us for doing so, take a look back at your own history and reflect on wether or not your nation was guilty of similar practices.
We did, we have, we recognised and learned.
So often Us citizens aren't taught it in the schools or covered in media.

And more importantly, what do you propose? Let's pretend the US disapered tomorrow, someone else would take it's place, what do you propose to keep that nation from doing the same things all over again?

Taz.
It's called enlightenment.
For it to happen the first thing necessary is to recognise it, accept it and then learn to not do it again.

Most nations learn from others, so Dutch colonial reduction gave lessons for British colonial speratism. So the British Commonwealth was formed to retain the good bits :)

But if you don't look for the success of others you dont' get the chance to learn the good !!

[Matra et Alpine]

If you are talking about the US, it is also worth relfecting that in some countries there are no aumbulances to not pick you up. A bad health system is still a health system. We should always strive for something better though.
Agreed.

Which countries don't have ambulances ??

Typically it's the ones with village hospitals or no roads.
Or Australia wher eit's easier to take the doctor to the accident than the patient to hospital :)

[Egg Nog]

I'm not saying it's right, then or now, but you who criticize us for doing so, take a look back at your own history and reflect on wether or not your nation was guilty of similar practices. And more importantly, what do you propose? Let's pretend the US disapered tomorrow, someone else would take it's place, what do you propose to keep that nation from doing the same things all over again?

Well, Canada is pretty good with quite a few of these issues. Our government is looking at paying out compensations to the families of the Chinese immigrants who built our national railway back during the birth of the country. One aspect of how people are treated that (similarly to in the States) is the most lacking is regarding aboriginal peoples. That's definitely something we've got to sort out.

Canada is a bit different though... we've never really waged war on anyone, but rather, taken a more defensive approach. A past Canadian Prime Minister was actually the person who created the concept of peacekeeping, which was effectively the final solution during the Suez canal crisis. It was a Canadian general who tried to get the world to listen during the genocide in Rwanda (no response from anyone, very unfortunately).

So anyway, there's not a whole lot to deal with as far as military things go... Canada is most focused on improving out health care system right now, and other matters of national reform.

I definately would not consider myself to be "anti-American" at all, but I am definately critical of the US government's behaviour over the course of history, especially under Republican leaders like Reagan. However, everything can be pardoned to a certain extent. The world has forgiven Germany for the holocaust, and everyone has moved on. The only major issue I still have with American political history is the World Court repairations and other such things that the US refuses to pay to this day. If I heard that any of these were finally being paid off, I'd be a lot happier about everything, and I'm sure the countries on the receiving end would too :)

[Matra et Alpine]

Canada is a bit different though... we've never really waged war on anyone, but rather, taken a more defensive approach.
For sure.
The only country where a shopping mall (edmonton) has more registered submarines than the navy :)

[Egg Nog]

For sure.
The only country where a shopping mall (edmonton) has more registered submarines than the navy :)

All of our submarines are kept indoors, where it is warm. Everyone knows that in Canada, all of the water outside is frozen.

By the way, the undersea submarine thing is totally lame, but it's a pretty interesting mall. :) That's where I took these photos. ;)

[Matra et Alpine]

All of our submarines are kept indoors, where it is warm. Everyone knows that in Canada, all of the water outside is frozen.

By the way, the undersea submarine thing is totally lame, but it's a pretty interesting mall. :) That's where I took these photos. ;)
Do they still have the crazy "broken lift" ride ?
I think I might have spent a whole morning riding it :)

[crisis]

Agreed.

Which countries don't have ambulances ??

Typically it's the ones with village hospitals or no roads.
Or Australia wher eit's easier to take the doctor to the accident than the patient to hospital :)
We have flying ambulances. The Royal Flying Doctor Service which will come and save your arse almost anywhere on the mainland. Thats of course if you have a HF radio to contact them or an epirb.

[Matra et Alpine]

Well the truth is out.....

Bush has admitted ON TV that he is doing everything he can to harm his country and his people

Is it a Bush-ism, or is Kerry paying his script-writers more money !! :)

[RX7 FC3S]

Darn... Matra was faster than me... I was going to post this news
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20040805/pl_nm/bush_misspeak_dc


I am not sure about the exact wording of what Bush said, but if I work for him I would have just add something like "we need to think as if our enermy, so that we can think of ways to counter it"