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taz_rocks_miami
08-01-2004, 09:18 PM
OK guys,

Who in your opinion are better drivers, F1, Rally, or Indy? Please state the reason for your choice.

Taz.

taz_rocks_miami
08-01-2004, 09:22 PM
Almost forgot, lol :D I pick rally drivers, becuase even though they don't drive at the speeds F1 and Indy driver do, they still go like stink over surfaces like gravel, dirt, asfalt and even snow.

Taz.

DasModell
08-01-2004, 10:50 PM
you really can't compare drivers from single seaters with rally drivers. . or moto .. remember Makkinen or Doohan with Formula One cars(Surtees is the exception :D) ?? .. .. and F1 drivers would do very bad first time out in a WRC car against normal rally drivers .. just two(or three :D) different worlds ..

Homem de Gelo
08-02-2004, 07:03 AM
It's a tie between the Rally and F1 drivers, even though they have completely different styles.

Rally drivers are masters of improvising and reacting the sudden and unexpected situations. They are familiar with the course, but it's to a much much less extent than the F1 drivers and the tracks they race at. And they do it at incredible speeds and with great risk to their integrity.

F1 drivers do not have to deal with such a great level of improvising and unawareness of the terrain. They follow an opposite path and are always in seach for perfection, every milimetre and milisecond possible. But it's not easy at all. The closer they get to the imit, the harder it gets to improve. And yet any small ammount they can improve will be a huge gain for them.

Cotterik
08-02-2004, 07:56 AM
ok i have to admit the rally drivers are more gifted. They do have to go across the most harsh terrains this planet has to offer and even then, they drive absolutely flat out against the clock, no matter what the weather, no matter what visibility. Rally drivers have no idea where they are heading until they get there, they cant memorise a circuit like an f1 driver, they cant practise how to take each corner perfectly, they are merely told by their co-drivers how to get across each stage. So aswel as using every ounce of driving experience they have, rally drivers need to have their ears wide open at all times, while surveying the surrounding area. These are hardcore professionals at what they do and no other race driver can beat it; put Michael Schumacher into a subaru impreza wrc car against Petter Solberg at a super special stage and Schumacher would be left crying in his gold plated boots. Rally drivers earn a fraction of what f1 drivers do, and somehow thats not right.

However, take a look at this:

Michael Schumacher will go head to head with top rally stars in this year’s Race of Champions.

If, as seems likely, Schumacher goes on to clinch this year’s world title, he will become the first reigning F1 champion to take part in the event.

WRC championship leader Sebastien Loeb has also agreed to compete.

Schumacher said: "I'm really looking forward to it. I have seen it on TV and it looks a lot of fun.”

Michele Mouton, the event’s promoter, added: "We are thrilled that Michael Schumacher has accepted our invitation to compete.

"Rally drivers will not want to lose to a cicuit driver, even if he is a six-time world champion"

The Race of Champions is based on the format of rally super special stages with drivers going head to head on a figure-of-eight track in a range of different cars.

This year’s event is scheduled to take place on December 4 at the Stade de France in Paris.

Schumacher may want to speak to Fernando Alonso, Olivier Panis or Nick Heidfeld if he wants a few tips before the event. All three have taken part in the past.

Information courtesy of itv-f1.com

this should prove once and for all, which world champion is THE world champion in motorsports.

Matra et Alpine
08-02-2004, 08:51 AM
ok i have to admit the rally drivers are more gifted. They do have to go across the most harsh terrains this planet has to offer and even then, they drive absolutely flat out against the clock, no matter what the weather, no matter what visibility. Rally drivers have no idea where they are heading until they get there, they cant memorise a circuit like an f1 driver,
Well in WRC that is no longer the case.

All rallies now do a few stages at least twice.
Also, some stages are the same each year.

So knowledge and practise are a factor that was seldom there a few years ago. Though even then on events like the RAC ( when it was a BRITISH rally ) a local driver could take a stage win and in nationals like the Snowman local drivers could take outright against the best international drivers.

All drivers run the recce with their nav so they know precisely what the road and surface are like - they just don't experience it at competitive speeds.

Only club rallies leave the driver and nav in a true "unknown" status.
A shame as it's taken some of the edge and skill away, but replaced it with another.

So the likes of McRae are not valued as higly as say Loeb. Loeb is more like an F1 driver with his precision and control. McRae is "old-school" chuck it in and haul it out :)


put Michael Schumacher into a subaru impreza wrc car against Petter Solberg at a super special stage and Schumacher would be left crying in his gold plated boots.
Watch tou for a surprise in the Race of Champions. Schumi did some forest practise at theis years Swedish rally. No press and no reports but the rumour is he was VERY fast.

Fast precise drivers seem capable of moving formula readily. Jim Clark was superb in a saloon car and acquitted himself well in a few rallies. Mike Hailwood was a winner on bikes and F1. Valentino Rossi looks as if he could be another :0

Rally drivers earn a fraction of what f1 drivers do, and somehow thats not right.
and co-drivers earn even less and NOW don't even get their name on the friggin' car :(

Ferrari Tifosi
08-02-2004, 09:17 AM
Yes, rally drivers have to deal with all sorts of terrain and such. But y'all have forgotten that the F1 driver is constantly being battered every which way by acceleration, decceleration, lateral, and vertical g-forces that are quite substantial. In fact at Interlagos (Brazil), a bumpy track, some corners are driven blind, because the bumps mixed with high speeds cause large vertical forces that temporarily drains blood from the eyes of the driver.

However, I give all three types of drivers great respect and their forms of racing are all difficult in their own ways.

And about F1 drivers memorizing the tracks...well that could be fixed by running on original Nurburgring (Nordsliefe, may be spelled wrong), Spa, etc. :D Too bad it's not safe though.

Cotterik
08-02-2004, 02:31 PM
All that jazz

Yea, thanks matra for jus confirmin tht. U didnt have to go through all the trouble but thanks neway :p

taz_rocks_miami
08-02-2004, 02:37 PM
Does anyone know what network is going to televise the Race of Champoins? I wanna see that!

Yeah, it is too bad they don't consider the original Nurburgring safe anymore. I'm going to buy that track one day and invite you all ;)

Taz.

DasModell
08-02-2004, 09:28 PM
you don't need to buy it .... as far as Know it's opened :D

Matra et Alpine
08-03-2004, 02:33 AM
Yes, rally drivers have to deal with all sorts of terrain and such. But y'all have forgotten that the F1 driver is constantly being battered every which way by acceleration, decceleration, lateral, and vertical g-forces that are quite substantial. In fact at Interlagos (Brazil), a bumpy track, some corners are driven blind, because the bumps mixed with high speeds cause large vertical forces that temporarily drains blood from the eyes of the driver.
a bump on an F1 track ? You're kidding right ??
Even the worst kerbs are NOTHING to the forces in the Safari rally, Dakar and many of the rough stages in the WRC rounds.
The majority of the G an F1 driver feels are those HE controls through acceleration, steering and braking.
Rally cars get jumps at 80+mph ( it's the landing that hurst ), rocks on the stages, wheel hooking into ditches. It's the terrain that hits back at a driver and co-drier. Most co-drivers have serious long-term neck and back damage !! Drivers regularly have to have physio work during events to ease the tension created in their spines with the impact loads !

However the rally cars have the advantage of more travel and time for the shock absorbers to do their work and reduce the actual impact on the driver/co-driver. F1 with it's limited travel doesn't have that luxury

Matra et Alpine
08-03-2004, 02:37 AM
you don't need to buy it .... as far as Know it's opened :D
yep, it's a public track.
You drive up in ANYTHING, pay your 12 Euroes ( $7 ) and go for as fast a lpa as you want.
The down-side is EVERYONE can go on in anything. So you're as likely to come round a corner to find a VW Bus full of students as you are to have a Radical cut up your inside into a corner. It's a scary place :)

DasModell
08-03-2004, 03:16 AM
endurance racing with different classes :D
speaking of Nurb . i've read some guys experience .. in the wifes 106 :D . was watching a M3 having difficulties overtaking a Volvo 850/S70 Estate(don't think it was a T version :D) .. must have been fun :D

Ferrari Tifosi
08-03-2004, 03:57 AM
a bump on an F1 track ? You're kidding right ??
Even the worst kerbs are NOTHING to the forces in the Safari rally, Dakar and many of the rough stages in the WRC rounds.
The majority of the G an F1 driver feels are those HE controls through acceleration, steering and braking.
Rally cars get jumps at 80+mph ( it's the landing that hurst ), rocks on the stages, wheel hooking into ditches. It's the terrain that hits back at a driver and co-drier. Most co-drivers have serious long-term neck and back damage !! Drivers regularly have to have physio work during events to ease the tension created in their spines with the impact loads !

However the rally cars have the advantage of more travel and time for the shock absorbers to do their work and reduce the actual impact on the driver/co-driver. F1 with it's limited travel doesn't have that luxury

Yes you are very much correct, I wasn't saying that the bumps in F1 are more harsh than in WRC. However, the F1 drivers are hitting these bumps at TWICE the speeds WRC cars are, and in effect with the stiffer suspension, don't necessarily rattle the driver as much but it does put a toll on the driver. Hell I can't emagine going through a 150+ mph sweeper and suddenly losing vision half way through and I equally couldn't imagine hitting a jump at 80+ mph that sends you 200+ ft through the air just to meet the ground harshly.

All in all though, WRC drivers and F1 drivers are both talented and it is hard to compare the two. In F1 you RACE, whereas in rallying you don't, you try to beat the clock. That alone throws in a huge difference between the two sports. F1 drivers have to be aware of the other drivers and have to account for their moves. Rallying is similar in the fact that they have to be aware of their geographical surroundings at all times. Fact is that I respect drivers from both sports equally.

I have a recommendation for rallying that might help with the neck injuries...its common in other motorsports, the HANS device. From what I understand is that the drivers make all sorts of noise when the idea of its use is brought up.

Matra et Alpine
08-03-2004, 04:44 AM
I have a recommendation for rallying that might help with the neck injuries...its common in other motorsports, the HANS device. From what I understand is that the drivers make all sorts of noise when the idea of its use is brought up.
Yep, because simply in rallying you CANNOT drive the car if your head is constrained.

rally cars have reverse gear, and is often needed if wrong-slotted. Reversing is NOT permitted on track ! Trying to reverse with head constrained to +/-15% movement would be a bit hard :)

Rallying has MUCH tighter corners than ANY circuit.
So again, limited head movement woudl prevent the driver from seeing round the most extreme corners.

Rally cars go sideways, The thought of throwing a car into a pendulum (scnadinavian-flick ) swing for a corner and NOT being able to look at the road because the HANS prevents enough movement terrifies me at the prospect.

Nope, rally drivers dont' want it because it would create a more dangerous situation.

F1 "safety' - with HANS and increased side protection on the cockpit - is DEMONSTRABLEY worse for minor accidents as drivers can no longer LOOK up their inside to check where a car is. I think HANS was a great solution for ovals and a bad option for tracks. BUT, it clearly has saved injury in BIG crashes so on balance is a good option for the racing drivers.

Ferrari Tifosi
08-03-2004, 10:56 AM
Yep, because simply in rallying you CANNOT drive the car if your head is constrained.

rally cars have reverse gear, and is often needed if wrong-slotted. Reversing is NOT permitted on track ! Trying to reverse with head constrained to +/-15% movement would be a bit hard :)

Rallying has MUCH tighter corners than ANY circuit.
So again, limited head movement woudl prevent the driver from seeing round the most extreme corners.

Rally cars go sideways, The thought of throwing a car into a pendulum (scnadinavian-flick ) swing for a corner and NOT being able to look at the road because the HANS prevents enough movement terrifies me at the prospect.

Nope, rally drivers dont' want it because it would create a more dangerous situation.

F1 "safety' - with HANS and increased side protection on the cockpit - is DEMONSTRABLEY worse for minor accidents as drivers can no longer LOOK up their inside to check where a car is. I think HANS was a great solution for ovals and a bad option for tracks. BUT, it clearly has saved injury in BIG crashes so on balance is a good option for the racing drivers.

Very true, never looked at it that way. I just remember seeing in one WRC rally....can't remember the drivers name...a car roll off an enbankment and the cockpit camera showed the driver and navigator's heads and necks moving sickingly harsh. Something needs to be done to protect these guys in situations like these.

Mustang
08-03-2004, 11:43 AM
it has to be rally

F1: oow lets rive around a track 70 times in cars that are glues to the floor and dont spin atall hardly

Rally: lets drive raeally fast in cars that do 0-60mph in 3 seconds over dirt, snow, gravel, ice, in rain etc and do it all sideways and keeping controll of the car most the time

Indy: lets drive real fast cars in a real unexciting way

:p :p:p:p

Ferrari Tifosi
08-03-2004, 12:07 PM
F1: oow lets rive around a track 70 times in cars that are glues to the floor and dont spin atall hardly

Yes and do this while you're exposed to 140 degree F temps, and under the constant barrage of accleration, braking, and lateral g's. F1 drivers have to be well conditioned because if they aren't the could die from the the elements alone (i.e. temperatures and the excitement the body generates, which in turn raises their hearbeat up to extremely dangerous levels to anyone who is unfit. 210 beats per minute has been recorded before.).

Mustang
08-03-2004, 12:50 PM
Yes and do this while you're exposed to 140 degree F temps, and under the constant barrage of accleration, braking, and lateral g's. F1 drivers have to be well conditioned because if they aren't the could die from the the elements alone (i.e. temperatures and the excitement the body generates, which in turn raises their hearbeat up to extremely dangerous levels to anyone who is unfit. 210 beats per minute has been recorded before.).


i am not saying that it is very stressful on the body and that you need to be fit, what i am saying is that to be a good driver you have to have good car controll and rally drivers have the best car control i feel.

taz_rocks_miami
08-03-2004, 03:06 PM
Wow no one has talked about or voted for Indy drivers. Why is that?

Taz.

Ferrari Tifosi
08-03-2004, 03:51 PM
i am not saying that it is very stressful on the body and that you need to be fit, what i am saying is that to be a good driver you have to have good car controll and rally drivers have the best car control i feel.

Oh, I understand what you're saying and I also believe that as far as car control goes, Rally drivers are the best. Just stating that there are a lots of variables outside the obvious.