Are they really that bad?

[brum]

The American market has been protected all these years by import taxes on cars. this has left the American market behind on innovation etc. The GM factories being so old they cant build fast enough but they cant be closed down because the government has protected the workers. This leaving them to look to countries such as Australia (Holden) to manufacture cars for them.

i think that the cars certainly dont match up with other cars around the world.
What do you think?

[taz_rocks_miami]

The American market has been protected all these years by import taxes on cars. this has left the American market behind on innovation etc. The GM factories being so old they cant build fast enough but they cant be closed down because the government has protected the workers. This leaving them to look to countries such as Australia (Holden) to manufacture cars for them.

i think that the cars certainly dont match up with other cars around the world.
What do you think?

That's a bold statement to make. Our cars are not that bad, sure they may not have the mega expensive leather interiors that some european cars have, but quality wise they have been good, with a couple of exceptions. We have a bunch of unrestored 50s, 60s and 70s cars still on the road and their parts aren't exactly falling off all over the road.

How has the US protected the auto workers again? Do you have any idea of how many factories we lost to countries like Mexico and Brazil do to their cheap labor?

Please be more spacific on how American cars don't match up to the rest of the world.

Taz.

[drakkie]

honestly, he is partly right.the american car companies were the biggest and best after ww2, but have been overtaken in quality etcetera by the european (and other parts of the world) companies.The european designed cars have far more developed engines.they deliver the same performances, with a smaller engine and less pollution.On the point of safety , european cars are much,much safer.It may not look so, because the car crumples, but that is ment to be a crumplingzone.these cars look like sh*t after an accident , but atleast the driver has a much better chance of survival.And on the point of looks, i must say, i think that european cars look better.

[brum]

That's a bold statement to make. Our cars are not that bad, sure they may not have the mega expensive leather interiors that some european cars have, but quality wise they have been good, with a couple of exceptions. We have a bunch of unrestored 50s, 60s and 70s cars still on the road and their parts aren't exactly falling off all over the road.

How has the US protected the auto workers again? Do you have any idea of how many factories we lost to countries like Mexico and Brazil do to their cheap labor?

Please be more spacific on how American cars don't match up to the rest of the world.

Taz.

I am just saying that i think the U.S. has been to protected by import taxes and this has lead to a low threat on its market. In Australia the import taxes are not terribly high leaving local car makers aware of other markets and new things, well you know, making them want to keep ahead.
I have to say i cant keep my eyes off some of the big chevy utes.

[Guibo]

If there's any special protectionism in the US market, I sure haven't seen it. I think every other car over here is a BMW 3 Series. And every other car after that is a Honda Accord. :D Toyota is/has usurped Ford in marketshare, and the Big Three are no more. That's sorta expected, considering the top 3 selling vehicles in the US aren't even cars...And I think that's part of the problem: too much emphasis on the truck and SUV markets means little emphasis on the things that matter to sporting road enthusiasts. Witness GM taking a big dump on the recent Hummer franchises. On the plus side, they've recently announced a new performance engine plant:
http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?article_id=1438&section_id=14&page_number=1

And a new road test facility:
http://www.autoweek.com/search/search_display.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat_code=escaperoads&content_code=03634144&Search_Type=STD&Search_ID=2308090&record=1

I'm not so sure our emissions laws are so lax. Not in California, anyway, where cars are being routinely tested on rolling treadmills. In California, and about 5 other states, diesels are not yet widely available due to excessive particulate/soot emissions. (But they're working to let them in.) Federal Tier 2 emissions regs are regarded as stringent as Euro 5 standards, with California as usual being even more strict.

Crumple zones...US cars have them too...I was under the impression that none of the trucks and SUV's have them, but apparently Ford has them:
http://www.fordvehicles.com/help/guides/safety/
I guess that extends to their Escape hybrid SUV as well.
Dodge Durango has crumple zones:
http://www.dodge.com/dodge_life/news/truck_news/govt_crash_test.html?context=durango-safety&type=link
So does the Ram:
http://www.dodge.com/ram_1500/safety.html?context=ram_1500-index&type=left
That leaves GM. Not sure about their entire lineup, but all of the Cadillac SUV's have crumple zones. More about some other GM trucks/SUV's here:
http://www.autobodyonline.com/whatsnew/feature/archive_story.cfm?date=03/27/2000

[escort mexico]

incidently, i heard that it is actually cheaper to buy a pontiac gto (Aussie biult monaro) and import it from the US than buying one over in Aus??
sounds kind of stupid, but it wouldn't suprise me

[Slicks]

honestly, he is partly right.the american car companies were the biggest and best after ww2, but have been overtaken in quality etcetera by the european (and other parts of the world) companies.The european designed cars have far more developed engines.they deliver the same performances, with a smaller engine and less pollution.On the point of safety , european cars are much,much safer.It may not look so, because the car crumples, but that is ment to be a crumplingzone.these cars look like sh*t after an accident , but atleast the driver has a much better chance of survival.And on the point of looks, i must say, i think that european cars look better.

More "rubbish" as you like to call it. Your "far more develop engines" are mostly physically bigger and heavier than our "less developed engines." Can you name a European engine that weighs 390lbs, produces around 420hp, and gets 19mpg city, 28mgp hwy?

[Slicks]

The American market has been protected all these years by import taxes on cars. this has left the American market behind on innovation etc. The GM factories being so old they cant build fast enough but they cant be closed down because the government has protected the workers. This leaving them to look to countries such as Australia (Holden) to manufacture cars for them.

i think that the cars certainly dont match up with other cars around the world.
What do you think?
It really depends on the car. I noticed alot of biased people like to make comparisons like a grand am to a BMW.. Which is so wrong on so many levels. They are a good amount of cars that do use plastic interior, but who cares? It serves its purpose, people dont realise how gay they sound talking about "the interior is plastic eww."

When it comes to perfomance cars, American cars can dish it out to the europeans. In luxury were catching up, and in "everyday" cars IMO european cars are better quality.

[crimefighter196]

The American market has been protected all these years by import taxes on cars. this has left the American market behind on innovation etc. The GM factories being so old they cant build fast enough but they cant be closed down because the government has protected the workers. This leaving them to look to countries such as Australia (Holden) to manufacture cars for them.

i think that the cars certainly dont match up with other cars around the world.
What do you think?

The Unions , and overly Socialist approach to the workforce caused this problem.

Socialistic approach kills innovation, and eventually destroy free market.

yip,, funny it seems but Americans and their want for welfare , benefits and hand outs causes the failing of its industries..

[taz_rocks_miami]

yip,, funny it seems but Americans and their want for welfare , benefits and hand outs causes the failing of its industries..

Our want????? Let me tell you, here in the States you are not well looked at if you have the kind of attitude you're so ingnorently stating. We are a nation of very hard workers and MOST of us earn the things we get. Example, when I was growing up, at my high school there was this kid who's dad got him a new Z28. You know what happened? He was mocked for not buying it with his own money with phrases like: "What's the matter, are you unable to work?" or "Look, he's driving dad's car." And it wasn't a question of jelousy. There were a lot hot rides at my school, but part of the respect you were shown was becuase you had worked for it. So please don't generalize, there are lazy people even where you live.

Taz.

[Matra et Alpine]

More "rubbish" as you like to call it. Your "far more develop engines" are mostly physically bigger and heavier than our "less developed engines." Can you name a European engine that weighs 390lbs, produces around 420hp, and gets 19mpg city, 28mgp hwy?
Wow, we wouldn't sell it !! 19mpg OUCH.

For mainstream performance it's hard to beat the current gen French Diesels and they're clean with lots of torque.

So again we come back to the apples and oranges comparison.
Less than 1% of the driving population would own a car with an engine like that so they tend to be in the luxury and topen supercars only.

The Rover K-series engine was first conceived nearly 25 years ago. First delivered in mass porduction over 10 years ago and used in the Lotus Elise.
It delivers 1.25bhp/kg in standard form and 2bhp/kg in mild tune as in the Elise. . That's the equivalent of 350bhp for your engine weight. AND it gets 40mpg !!!

So you see bigger may SOUND better but comparison shows it isn't necesarily. The difference comes because we're pushing around less steel so the 200bhp is "enough".

AND that's NOT the best-in-class engine - it is an OLD DESIGN, but one I know well :)
A little research on the Honda VTEC, Toyota VVLTi etc will bring even better.
We've not even touched on the performance turbo-diesels - though they inevitably won't do as well due to the block requirements :) But will stomp on fuel consumption !!

So rather than making it a pissing contest, please learn a bit about the others before spouting about a 390lb behemoth. We're just going to end up in the same circles you and I have gone round often where *I* put the effort in to provide the evidence you could have yourslef and as school teachers know you would have learned more doing it yourself.

[Matra et Alpine]

The Unions , and overly Socialist approach to the workforce caused this problem.

Socialistic approach kills innovation, and eventually destroy free market.

yip,, funny it seems but Americans and their want for welfare , benefits and hand outs causes the failing of its industries..

There is a difference between socialism and communism which is so often not understood :)

Management of production and consumption for the "common good" versus the "stock holder" is an interesting comparison to look into.

How many elderly folks have lost thier pension because of the stock market crashes ? How many companies have failed to deliver on product because they have focussed on delivery of "value" to stockholders.

France had remained one of the most Socialist-centric-policy countries and during that time developed it's own nuclear reactors - some of the safest in the world - their own 4th generation fighter, advanced weapons systems, battlefield electronics, Concorde, Airbus, best diesel car engines in the world, racing success, rallying success, electronics, satellites, their own launch platform AND all of that whilst 'hindered' by a phobia for the use of the English language ( that's what umpteen battles over a millenia does to you :) )

[Matra et Alpine]

Our want?????
I think that comment might come from the protectionism which generally protected workers in failing industries eg Cars in the 80/90s, steel today.

So please don't generalize, there are lazy people even where you live.
Good point.
Attitudes differ across all spectrums of all our societies and we shoudl recognise that.

[brum]

Are GM and Ford America in trouble because thats what i have been hearing.

[Coventrysucks]

More "rubbish" as you like to call it. Your "far more develop engines" are mostly physically bigger and heavier than our "less developed engines." Can you name a European engine that weighs 390lbs, produces around 420hp, and gets 19mpg city, 28mgp hwy?

What a great argument. American V8s are smaller and lighter than European engines, so all American engines are good?

As has been documented before, European engines invariably use cams, rather than pushrods, and therefore take up more space/ weight.

Looking at other engines though, and America lags behind:

Ford 2986cc V6 156bhp 27mpg (Taurus)
Ford 2967cc V6 220bhp 28mpg (Mondeo)
Renault 2958cc V6 177bhp 32mpg (Diesel Vel Satis)

Ford 3797cc V6 203bhp 25mpg (Windstar)
Ford 2792cc V6 204bhp 26mpg (Galaxy)

Cheverolet 2190cc S4 116bhp ?mpg (Cavalier)
Opel 2198cc S4 145bhp 33mpg (Vectra)
Opel 2171cc S4 123bhp 43pmg (Diesel Vectra)

Cheverolet 3350cc V6 182bhp 25mpg (Impala)
Opel 3175cc V6 218bhp 24mpg (Omega)

Chrysler 2148cc S4 121bhp 41mpg (PT Cruiser diesel)
Citroen 2179cc S4 136bhp 44mpg (C5 estate diesel)

Et cetera, et cetera

[Slicks]

Wow, we wouldn't sell it !! 19mpg OUCH.

For mainstream performance it's hard to beat the current gen French Diesels and they're clean with lots of torque.

So again we come back to the apples and oranges comparison.
Less than 1% of the driving population would own a car with an engine like that so they tend to be in the luxury and topen supercars only.

The Rover K-series engine was first conceived nearly 25 years ago. First delivered in mass porduction over 10 years ago and used in the Lotus Elise.
It delivers 1.25bhp/kg in standard form and 2bhp/kg in mild tune as in the Elise. . That's the equivalent of 350bhp for your engine weight. AND it gets 40mpg !!!

So you see bigger may SOUND better but comparison shows it isn't necesarily. The difference comes because we're pushing around less steel so the 200bhp is "enough".

AND that's NOT the best-in-class engine - it is an OLD DESIGN, but one I know well :)
A little research on the Honda VTEC, Toyota VVLTi etc will bring even better.
We've not even touched on the performance turbo-diesels - though they inevitably won't do as well due to the block requirements :) But will stomp on fuel consumption !!

So rather than making it a pissing contest, please learn a bit about the others before spouting about a 390lb behemoth. We're just going to end up in the same circles you and I have gone round often where *I* put the effort in to provide the evidence you could have yourslef and as school teachers know you would have learned more doing it yourself.


Ouch you do sell it. BMW M3 gets 16/24, an donly makes 330hp, and 262ft-lbs of torque, and isnt that much heavier than a vette. Im not even going to put figures up from lamborghini and ferrari...

Since i was talking about perfomance cars this isnt quite apples and oranges, its quite simple, 400+hp, 400ft-lbs of torque and 19/28 mpg.

I never said anything about bigger being better, physically small is better, and less weight is better. Again displacement does not have to do with size or weight.

Figured the elise would be brought into this, that why i said engine alone. It uses a friggen economy engine....

Honda is a prime example of overrating an engine. The stock NSXs 3.2L is actually physically larger and heavier than the LS1. And the S2000s "small" engine weighs a beefy 320lbs and packs only 240hp and 160ft-lbs of torque. VTEC engines are a joke, although a good design they need more torque.

[Guibo]

More "rubbish" as you like to call it. Your "far more develop engines" are mostly physically bigger and heavier than our "less developed engines." Can you name a European engine that weighs 390lbs, produces around 420hp, and gets 19mpg city, 28mgp hwy?
BTW,
19 US mpg = 23 Imp mpg
28 US = 34 Imp.
Slicks, you have to understand that the Z06 (if that's what you're referring to) gets that kind of mileage due to its lazy gearing, light weight, good aerodynamics, and a skip-shift feature made possible by its massive torque and flat, linear powerband. Put it into a heavier, less aerodynamic car and you'll not see the same kind of mileage. Ex: Cadillac CTS-V, with essentially the same engine gets 16/25. Hmmm...Ok. Better than the comparable M5's 14/21. But you get the point.

Judging by the lack of direct response to your narrowly focused question*, I guess the answer to your specific question is no. Only European engine off the top of my head that produces that kind of hp (and installed in a sports car) is the 360 Modena's V8. It's a bit lighter, is about 20 hp short (far more than that if you go by owners' dynos), and gets 11/16 over the same cycle. Curously no problem in selling those cars in Europe, I believe.

*Have to remember that the LS1/LS6's application is relatively limited, only being used in about 3 models. It's not representative of the US engine lineup which, due to certain economic factors, on average consumes more than those in other markets.

[taz_rocks_miami]

Slicks, you have to understand that the Z06 (if that's what you're referring to) gets that kind of mileage due to its lazy gearing, light weight, good aerodynamics, and a skip-shift feature made possible by its massive torque and flat, linear powerband.[/SIZE]

I'd heard about this skip-shift feature before, what I heard was that when you're driving a modirate street speeds, the manual gear box won't let you shift from 1st to 2nd to 3rd, that it will only let you shift from 1st to 3rd or someting like that. That would annoy the hell out of me. If it does work this way, is there a way to switch it off?

Taz.

[Matra et Alpine]

Ouch you do sell it. BMW M3 gets 16/24, an donly makes 330hp, and 262ft-lbs of torque, and isnt that much heavier than a vette. Im not even going to put figures up from lamborghini and ferrari...
BMW's in the UK are bought by salesman, merchant bankers (w) and hairdressers. We don't buy them as performance cars. Please will you stop taking what AMERICA buys from Europe as indicative of what we buy.

Since i was talking about perfomance cars this isnt quite apples and oranges, its quite simple, 400+hp, 400ft-lbs of torque and 19/28 mpg.

Figured the elise would be brought into this, that why i said engine alone. It uses a friggen economy engine....
No it uses an advanced lightweight tuned engine and beats the ass off most cars you want to stack up against it including 10 times the price :)
Calling the Elise an 'economy' engine is as ignorant as calling the Viper a 'truck' engine :)


Honda is a prime example of overrating an engine. The stock NSXs 3.2L is actually physically larger and heavier than the LS1.
Why do you guys insist in quoting the NSX. It's a 15 year old design, FFS !!!!


And the S2000s "small" engine weighs a beefy 320lbs and packs only 240hp and 160ft-lbs of torque. VTEC engines are a joke, although a good design they need more torque.
Only if you can't change gears and want to drive everywhere in top :)
Gearboxes are there to allow the driver to use another skill to extract maximum performance from the car they drive.
The S2000 gets to 60 in 6 secs so not all bad :)

VTEC joke ?? "there is no better four-cylinder engine in the world." CAR - March 2003 "

Having spent track time with one they are a VERY well balanced car and real easy to use the traction and handling to really motor on.

[Matra et Alpine]

BTW,
19 US mpg = 23 Imp mpg
28 US = 34 Imp.
Good point and easy to forget the difference.

Judging by the lack of direct response to your narrowly focused question*, I guess the answer to your specific question is no. Only European engine off the top of my head that produces that kind of hp (and installed in a sports car) is the 360 Modena's V8. It's a bit lighter, is about 20 hp short (far more than that if you go by owners' dynos), and gets 11/16 over the same cycle. Curously no problem in selling those cars in Europe, I believe.
The problem in producing DIRECT comparison is it's pointless.
I'd be as well asking for engines colored red :)
An engine has a job to do within the car it is designed for.
So bhp/ton of car is important to performance.
We don't need 400bhp except in cars we want to sell in America and to the top 1% of buyers in RoW.

[DodgeNitroBIRM]

Are GM and Ford America in trouble because thats what i have been hearing.

Not that I am aware of. The only car company I know of that is in deep (BAD WORD) is Mitsubishi. Where have you heard that?

[DodgeNitroBIRM]

Ford 2986cc V6 156bhp 27mpg (Taurus)
Ford 2967cc V6 220bhp 28mpg (Mondeo)
Renault 2958cc V6 177bhp 32mpg (Diesel Vel Satis)


Which 3.0 liter V6 are you talking about in the Taurus? There are two different ones. The "Vulcan" 3.0 is the pushrod V6 and then there is the DOHC 3.0 V6 that comes in both the Taurus and the Escape. From what you are describing, the Taurus has the Vulcan and the Mondeo has the DOHC.

I also don't like the Diesel Vs. Gasoline comparison you have there with the Renault and the two Fords. Not very fair.

[Coventrysucks]

Which 3.0 liter V6 are you talking about in the Taurus? There are two different ones. The "Vulcan" 3.0 is the pushrod V6 and then there is the DOHC 3.0 V6 that comes in both the Taurus and the Escape. From what you are describing, the Taurus has the Vulcan and the Mondeo has the DOHC.

I also don't like the Diesel Vs. Gasoline comparison you have there with the Renault and the two Fords. Not very fair.

Why isn't it fair?
Just showing that diesel isn't as backwards as some people might think ;)

I don't know which version of the Taurus V6 it is, there was only one listed.
All the figures were taken from the same source, so I assume they didn't list it as US mpg and Imperial mpg.
Figures are from 2003.

[Guibo]

I'd heard about this skip-shift feature ... is there a way to switch it off?

Taz.
Yes. There's a $20 device you plug into the solenoid that controls this in the transmission. Have to jack the car up and get underneath. But it's about a 10 minute job.

[Coventrysucks]

More "rubbish" as you like to call it. Your "far more develop engines" are mostly physically bigger and heavier than our "less developed engines." Can you name a European engine that weighs 390lbs, produces around 420hp, and gets 19mpg city, 28mgp hwy?

Are you going off the Corvette Z06 engine? (Don't know much about specific US engines)

From reading comments from some of the few Z06 owners in the UK (as they drive on the same roads, in the same conditions, and with the same fuel as TVR drivers)
They seem to agree that "normal" driving gets an average of between 22 and 27 imperial mpg.

TVR Cerbera with the Speed Eight engine, which weighs 121kg/ 267lbs
75° V8, available IIRC in 4.2 and 4.5 litre versions.
4.2 = 360bhp 320lb ft
4.5 = 420bhp 380lb ft

Drivers seem to think that on average you can get 15-18mpg around town and 25-27 m/way cruising (70-100mph)

Bearing in mind that the AJP8 is basically a race engine, with a lot of F1 technology incorperated into its design, and it doesn't have a lazy top gear for cruising (C6 does 90mph @ 2000rpm in top) I'd say that was quite reasonable.

[taz_rocks_miami]

Yes. There's a $20 device you plug into the solenoid that controls this in the transmission. Have to jack the car up and get underneath. But it's about a 10 minute job.

Thanks Giubo, sorry I started a new thread on this, it wasn't that I ignored your answer, I guess I started the thread just before you answered. Do you know the name or how to get this device?

Taz.

[Guibo]

It's called the CAGS (or Skip-Shift) eliminator. You can buy it here, among other places:
http://www.corvettegarage.com/product_info.php?products_id=58
http://www.westcoastcorvette.com/

To answer your question in the other thread, I'd say quite a few Corvette owners make the change. You'll find a wealth of feedback on the dedicated Corvette owners forums.

[Guibo]

TVR Cerbera with the Speed Eight engine, which weighs 121kg/ 267lbs
75° V8, available IIRC in 4.2 and 4.5 litre versions.
4.2 = 360bhp 320lb ft
4.5 = 420bhp 380lb ft

I've always wondered how accurate TVR's weight estimates are. Their Cerbera Red Rose was quoted at 1100kg/2425lbs, but when Evo actually weighed it in their test with the Brabus CV8, it was found to be 175kg/385lbs heavier. Sport Auto found the Tuscan S to weigh 65kg/143lbs over the claimed 1100kg.
And regarding the hp numbers, yes, the Red Rose Cerberas make about that much (420), but the standard 4.5 makes nowhere near that. 350-360 is closer to the upper end.

[Coventrysucks]

I've always wondered how accurate TVR's weight estimates are. Their Cerbera Red Rose was quoted at 1100kg/2425lbs, but when Evo actually weighed it in their test with the Brabus CV8, it was found to be 175kg/385lbs heavier. Sport Auto found the Tuscan S to weigh 65kg/143lbs over the claimed 1100kg.
And regarding the hp numbers, yes, the Red Rose Cerberas make about that much (420), but the standard 4.5 makes nowhere near that. 350-360 is closer to the upper end.

All the info I have found says:
4.2 360bhp
4.5 420bhp
4.5 Red Rose 440bhp

You do have to give them a bit of leniancy, they are hardly a "high tech" outfit.

[Guibo]

Fair enough. I was going by rolling road results of TVR owners.

[Matra et Alpine]

I've always wondered how accurate TVR's weight estimates are. Their Cerbera Red Rose was quoted at 1100kg/2425lbs, but when Evo actually weighed it in their test with the Brabus CV8, it was found to be 175kg/385lbs heavier. Sport Auto found the Tuscan S to weigh 65kg/143lbs over the claimed 1100kg.
You always need to read the small print on weights.
1 - Some include a full tank and driver and passenger.
2 - Some include half a tank and a driver.
3 - Some have an empty tank, no water, no oil and no driver.

Clearly the last one is "cheating" ( but no worse than say Koenigseggs top speed claims )

Generally it's a combination of 1 and/or 2 :)

[Guibo]

Ah, ok. The Evo article mentions a full tank, but no driver (they rarely weigh their test vehicles anyway; they almost always list the weight for a car they test as "kerb weight"). A full tank (65 liters) in the Cerbera should contain about 48kg/106lbs of petrol. That leaves 127kg/280lbs unaccounted for. Does Evo's John Barker weigh that much? Maybe he's American. ;) No, I'm almost certain that's without driver (as is normal practice for determining curb weights).
Most companies list a curb weight, with full fluids and fuel tank as you mentioned. None (to my knowledge) include the weight of the driver. Those that list a dry weight sometimes list the curb weight (Ferrari's website, for instance). FWIW, GM lists a curb weight of 3116 lbs for the Z06. R&T has weighed the Z06 twice, and each time got within 6 lbs of the mark (no driver).

[brum]

Not that I am aware of. The only car company I know of that is in deep (BAD WORD) is Mitsubishi. Where have you heard that?

my bro is investing, thats what he told me