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cp01ae
08-19-2004, 07:39 PM
One thing i've noticed recently (in the last five - ten years) is the definite upsurge in the latest automotive "fashion" trend, or whatever you would call it. This latest and greatest trend has companies such as Ford, Porsche, BMW and Chrysler jumping on board. What is this trend you might ask? The V-10.

Now some of you might be thinking "this guy is nuts, the V-10 has been around for a while". However, we've never seen such an abundance of quite an uncommon engine type than we see in the cars of today. Just look around you, you see the Porsche Carrera GT, The Lamborghini Gallardo, the BMW M5, the Dodge Viper, and most recently The Shelby GTR-1 Concept, and you think, "V-10", must be sporty. But why?

Why not a V-8? "Of course" you think to yourself, a V-10 is bigger. Hell, it's two better than a V-8, that must count for something. And 10 is such a nice round number, it just sounds nice. Of course all of the Formula One fans think of their favourite teams lining up on the grid at Monaco, or Spa, or Imola or wherever they fantasize about. And NASCAR fans and the like will all be thinking "V-10, I didn't know there was anything bigger than a V-8. Thats some new and far-out stuff."

Of course most people here know a good deal about cars and will realize that there is nothing tecnologically supperior in a V-10 that can't be found in a V-8 or V-12. Sure, some will say that is smaller and more compact than a V-12 and can thus fit more applications, so is a V-8. And some will say that a V-10 is capable of more power than a V-8 due to it's increase in combustion area and the plain and simple fact that it's already two better than a V-8. But a V-12 is four better than a V-8, and of course it backs up all the big performance golliaths like the Ferrari Enzo, the McLaren F1, the Pagani Zonda, and a myraid of Lamborghinis, to name but a few.

So is the V-10 just a compromise? Is it better than a V-8, but not quite as good as a V-12? Not quite NASCAR, not quite Ferrari but somewhere in between? Or mabey its just the chic automotive style of the new millenium. Mabey automakers are finaly trying to capitalize on the millions of Formula One fans and give them something they can appreciate.

If the V-8 is rugged and tough, the proverbial everyman. and the V-12 is the ultra-lux "I'm better than thou, look at me", then mabey the V-10 is the performance middle ground; a sort of "Jack-Of-All-Trades".

Now a company like Porsche I can understand using a V-10. For years their entire model line-up has been dominated by six and eight cylinder engines. They make a V-10 and use it as a stepping stone to one day reclaim V-12 might. Of couse on the other hand you have companies like Ferrari .They have always had a V-12 model in their range, making a car with a V-10 would only bring them down to a lower level of perfection and off of the god-like pedestal they have been placed upon. Then take a peek at Lamborghini, for the past 20 or so years they have only produced a V-12 powered car, one that Ferrucio figgured could take the fight to Enzo. But times have changed. The Automobile economy demands that Lamborghini produce a more wide-spread model, and what better engine to suit it than a V-10, not as good (remembering that a V-12 is two better than a V-8) as the lump in the Murcielago, but better than anything else (two better than any V-8).

So here we are, basically we've gotten nowhere. A V-10 is two better than a V-8, but it's two below a V-12. it has the advantages of both, along with some of the disadvantages of either.

Well, I guess the point of the V-10 is that there is no point. Fashion is generally a pretty vain subject. You aren't going to find much use in the stripes on your shirt, or the colour of your tie. But we have to remember something about fashion: it can sometimes be fun. And it always separates the plain and everyday from the outrageous and extrordinary.

Spastik_Roach
08-19-2004, 09:03 PM
V10's seem to be often Hi revers, for example well F1 cars and the new BMW M5..

taz_rocks_miami
08-19-2004, 09:29 PM
V10's seem to be often Hi revers, for example well F1 cars and the new BMW M5..

So are V12s, as far as I know, they all reach at least 7,000 RPM. I've often wondered why all these car companies chose V10s instaid of V12s. Maybe they make more low end torque? Just a guess.

Taz.

driftnWRX
08-20-2004, 01:19 AM
So are V12s, as far as I know, they all reach at least 7,000 RPM. I've often wondered why all these car companies chose V10s instaid of V12s. Maybe they make more low end torque? Just a guess.

Taz.


A V-10 might just be cheaper to build than a V-12. In all of the V-10 cars (excpetion CGT), -- Dodge Viper, Gallardo, M5, they are less expensive than the next elite class of super cars -- Ferarri Enzo, Pagani Zonda, Murciélago, McLaren F1. Remember, it is 2 more! :D

GTR Dreamer
08-20-2004, 02:13 AM
welcome 2 the forums, driftinWRX :D :D

henk4
08-20-2004, 02:27 AM
Ferrari did extensive research during the mid nineties to decide whether to keep on using the traditional and famous V12 in F1 or to change to a V10. At the end it was found that a V10 offered the best compromise between a lighter V8 with lower revving ability and a heavier V12 which could rev higher, but was less torquey at lower revs, for instance due to a smaller piston area. Once Ferrari took the decision to go for a V10, it became a mandatory engine lay-out in F1 for all teams. Obviously other people reached the same conclusions about the V10 concept and therefore it has gained so much in popularity.

Matra et Alpine
08-20-2004, 02:35 AM
If you only couint pistons then the V8-V10-V12 comments are right - ie one is 2 pistons more than the predecesor.

BUT engines are about getting maximum poiwer or torque ( or compromoise of both ) fro a given volume and engine block size.

V8s were born becase they are naturally balanced.

As designers were able to use computers to analyse all the stresses in an engine and anlalysies it's dynamic forces they were then able to 'pley' with other engine configurations. So a V10 becomes mroe balanced at an omptimum angle for the V. Renault tried to design against this optimum angle to give them a block which was a better shape for the car aerodynamics and proved you couldnt' control the stresses at the higher powers.

Again designers can play with the cylinders more readily nowadays as developing counter-balance components can be tested in a computer LONG before committing to steel/alloy. It was only 25 years ago that they could compute the static and estimate the dynamic but had to build it to test it and then fine tune.

So engines are MUCH more about the stresses than the volume for getting power.

BTW V10s in F1 cars rev to 18+ THOUSAND rpm, so your comparison with the V12 is out by a factor of 2. But a race engine and a road engine are set up for entirely different conditions and aren't really comparable.

henk4
08-20-2004, 02:43 AM
If you only couint pistons then the V8-V10-V12 comments are right - ie one is 2 pistons more than the predecesor.

BUT engines are about getting maximum poiwer or torque ( or compromoise of both ) fro a given volume and engine block size.

V8s were born becase they are naturally balanced.

As designers were able to use computers to analyse all the stresses in an engine and anlalysies it's dynamic forces they were then able to 'pley' with other engine configurations. So a V10 becomes mroe balanced at an omptimum angle for the V. Renault tried to design against this optimum angle to give them a block which was a better shape for the car aerodynamics and proved you couldnt' control the stresses at the higher powers.

Again designers can play with the cylinders more readily nowadays as developing counter-balance components can be tested in a computer LONG before committing to steel/alloy. It was only 25 years ago that they could compute the static and estimate the dynamic but had to build it to test it and then fine tune.

So engines are MUCH more about the stresses than the volume for getting power.

BTW V10s in F1 cars rev to 18+ THOUSAND rpm, so your comparison with the V12 is out by a factor of 2. But a race engine and a road engine are set up for entirely different conditions and aren't really comparable.

Technically speaking this is very through, however there is a marketing aspect to this, A V10 has just become fancy, and emotionally acceptable after Ferrari dropped the V12 in F1.

Matra et Alpine
08-20-2004, 02:54 AM
Technically speaking this is very through, however there is a marketing aspect to this, A V10 has just become fancy, and emotionally acceptable after Ferrari dropped the V12 in F1.
yep, there is always what the marketing guys can hype.

The WORST ecample in the world is V-twin bikes.
Ducati made LOTS of marketing and sales from their Superbike victories.
VERY few people knew that the Duc bikes were 1000 cc versus the 4's limited to 750cc. Even now that they're all 1000cc, the 4s have restrictors.
AND YET, people flock to buy Ducs because they must be the best coz they win WSB :(

Bring back the Ferrari flat-12 I say :)

henk4
08-20-2004, 03:00 AM
yep, there is always what the marketing guys can hype.

The WORST ecample in the world is V-twin bikes.
Ducati made LOTS of marketing and sales from their Superbike victories.
VERY few people knew that the Duc bikes were 1000 cc versus the 4's limited to 750cc. Even now that they're all 1000cc, the 4s have restrictors.
AND YET, people flock to buy Ducs because they must be the best coz they win WSB :(

Bring back the Ferrari flat-12 I say :)

I think it is also the unique sound of the Duc, that makes it sell the way it does. Let's wait until the desmosedici gets introduced in the superbike.

And yes the flat-12 had a lot of things going for it, except its width, which was detrimental for the undertray aerodynamics.

megotmea7
08-20-2004, 01:59 PM
I think it is also the unique sound of the Duc, that makes it sell the way it does. Let's wait until the desmosedici gets introduced in the superbike.
the price alone was enough to persuade me away from a ducati, most of the latest japanese literbikes are making as much torque as the duc's (at a much higher rpm of coarse) and making massive amounts of hp compared to the vtwins(140hp or so i think for the 999r compared to the 160-180-184hp of the gixxer, 1000RR, R1, and 10r respectively) ive been looking to purchase an '04 R1 or 10R but i think ill wait a little till the price has dropped a bit. dealers are quoting me $12-14k OTD right now :(

Matra et Alpine
08-20-2004, 02:27 PM
the price alone was enough to persuade me away from a ducati
Mate just got rid of his duc when he found out how much the next service was going to be.
After a year he was going to have to replace the belts/chains/whatever that drive the desmo valves and it was nearly 1000 pounds. He traded it in for an Aprilia Mille :)

cp01ae
08-20-2004, 03:23 PM
Please inform the un-enlightened, what sort of advantages does the Desmodronic have over a conventional set-up?

Matra et Alpine
08-20-2004, 03:46 PM
Please inform the un-enlightened, what sort of advantages does the Desmodronic have over a conventional set-up?
no springs :)
Traditional valves are opened by the cam lobe and the spring then needs to be strong enough to return the vallve based on the trailing edge of the cam lobe.
So springs need to be VERY strong to handle high revs and close the valves as quickly as possible. BUT a stronger spring gives more resistancve in opening the valve so it all ends up a compomrise.
Desmo uses one cam love to open the valve and another cam lobe to close it. So the valves can be opened and closed faster and will NOT have "valve bounce" which is a problem with spring closure.
See http://www.ducati.com/bikes/techcafe.jhtml?detail=article&value=technical&part=technical&artID=2 for the Ducati view (biased) :)

cp01ae
08-20-2004, 06:34 PM
Thanks Matra