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GrimaH
08-25-2004, 03:01 AM
Which bestseller(over 500,000 sold or something) do you think is the worst car ever to sell like hotcakes? :confused: :confused:

henk4
08-25-2004, 03:49 AM
daewoo nexia

DasModell
08-25-2004, 03:56 AM
around here it is called Daewoo Cielo(build in .ro too) . and it's as common as the normal Dacia . but to nominee one Daewoo .. i must say the Tico

henk4
08-25-2004, 03:59 AM
around here it is called Daewoo Cielo(build in .ro too) . and it's as common as the normal Dacia . but to nominee one Daewoo .. i must say the Tico


how many Dacia's were produced (the R12 clone?)

:Exige:
08-25-2004, 04:45 AM
1940's VW Beetle (It was sold cheap to Germans by the Nazis which meant there was no build quality :D )

DasModell
08-25-2004, 04:47 AM
arond 1.959.630 (sedans(1300,1310,1410,Sport)). .. Break(around 230.000), Pick-up) . so i think it's a canidate for this role :D :D :D
around 500.000 exported it seems :D

http://img.rol.ro/stiri.rol.ro/stiri/mare/040720_mare_dacia.jpg

henk4
08-25-2004, 04:49 AM
1940's VW Beetle (It was sold cheap to Germans by the Nazis which meant there was no build quality :D )

VW's were first sold in large quantities after the war and whatever you can say about the design, build quality was something that many companies in the UK could take as an example.

Karrmann
08-25-2004, 05:30 AM
ford Pinto who buys a car that can fricken explode on the littleist of rear end contact?

:Exige:
08-25-2004, 06:27 AM
VW Beetle which is renound for being unreliable with something like a Jaguar XK120 which could go non-stop around lemans for 24 hours. I dont want to argue here but why are you taking it out on my country (or group of countries)? You could just have easily said that the build quality was better than alot of other cars. Please dont stoop down as low as some of the people in the American hate thread :(

Edit: Woot - Post 69 :p !

Roy Visser
08-25-2004, 06:54 AM
Opel Kadett E

henk4
08-25-2004, 06:58 AM
VW Beetle which is renound for being unreliable with something like a Jaguar XK120 which could go non-stop around lemans for 24 hours. I dont want to argue here but why are you taking it out on my country (or group of countries)? You could just have easily said that the build quality was better than alot of other cars. Please dont stoop down as low as some of the people in the American hate thread :(

Edit: Woot - Post 69 :p !

I was a bit surprised that you linked Nazi's with build quality. May be I should have used the Allegro or the Marina as examples of cars that would also fall under the main heading of this thread.

:Exige:
08-25-2004, 08:04 AM
Im just going to shut up now before you offend me even more. I dunno what you have against my country but it offends me that you are pinpointing us making it seem that were a bunch of morons. You obviously havent heard of something called equality.

henk4
08-25-2004, 08:10 AM
Im just going to shut up now before you offend me even more. I dunno what you have against my country but it offends me that you are pinpointing us making it seem that were a bunch of morons. You obviously havent heard of something called equality.

It is always fun reading people saying that they are going to shut up and then continue talking. I have absolutely nothing against your country. You are really acting like the Americans that you referred to in an earlier reply. If you use the word Nazi in post you can expect to be in for some flak. Furthermore if you really think that the Allegro and the Marina are prime examples of British technology, than you are one of the few. I am the frist to admit that your island also produced some outstanding cars. This morning I was behind the wheel of UCP's Mini so I know what I am talking about. :)

drakkie
08-25-2004, 08:17 AM
It MUST be the Trabant, an east geman, car.the hood was made of paper !it was unreliable, polluting and everything was simply poor quality .....

Karrmann
08-25-2004, 08:19 AM
well there was an alard clipper it only sold 10 but it couldn't go a mile without breaking down and it was all cramped.

:Exige:
08-25-2004, 08:32 AM
Ive just got a couple of things to add before i shut up :D

1) I might be talking like some of the americans in that thread because maybe they dont like being talked about asif the inferior race. And what you were saying makes it seem that because 1 British car is bad then all of them are.

2) You dont get my point about the Nazis ... the brand Volkswagen was started by the Nazis and Hitler to offer Germans a better life. Volkswagen translated is something like Peoples Mobile (the peoples being Germans). I wasnt calling the Germans Nazi's. This is the sort of stuff Im learning for my GCSE's so I have to know about this.

henk4
08-25-2004, 08:42 AM
Ive just got a couple of things to add before i shut up :D

1) I might be talking like some of the americans in that thread because maybe they dont like being talked about asif the inferior race. And what you were saying makes it seem that because 1 British car is bad then all of them are.

2) You dont get my point about the Nazis ... the brand Volkswagen was started by the Nazis and Hitler to offer Germans a better life. Volkswagen translated is something like Peoples Mobile (the peoples being Germans). I wasnt calling the Germans Nazi's. This is the sort of stuff Im learning for my GCSE's so I have to know about this.

Volkswagen means : Car for the people, it was developed during the Nazi period by Dr. Ferdinand Porsche of which we have heard a lot of things later. What you said was that because it was given by the Nazi's the build quality was low. That was a poorly substantiated remark

If you really think that I consider the Brits an inferior race because they can produce an inferior car like the Allegro then you are making the wrong connections. If your original post had been sent by somebody from France I probably would have made a remark about the build quality of French cars. It just so happened that you are from the other side of the North Sea.

Delmaster
08-25-2004, 08:45 AM
I also think it's the Trabant.

It's ugly as hell, partly produced of paper, sounds like a handfull of big grasshoppers in a tin and in the DDR (East Germany until 1989) you had to wait 15 years for your car after ordering....... no joke!

ruim20
08-25-2004, 08:51 AM
1940's VW Beetle (It was sold cheap to Germans by the Nazis which meant there was no build quality :D )


dont take this the rong way, but the betlle is one of the symbols of the car industry and i think almost everyone of us would like to have one in our car collection.

:Exige:
08-25-2004, 09:22 AM
When did I say the Beetle was bad? I want one as my first car so you cant exactly say that I hate them. And when did I ever make the statment that because Nazis were involved it was bad? Im not talking about the same Beetle as you. Im talking about the one mass-produced during the war that was scrapped for a better design after the war. I am not willing to have this argument if you are gonna get the wrong end of the stick. Im entitled to an opinion and you disagree with my opinion ... next time dont say that because Im british you have the right to mock me because I come from the same country as the failed dictator of the car world, British Leyland. I apoligise for anything Ive said but I just dont think its right to bring in someones country because you dont agree with someone. Lets call it a truce :)

Karrmann
08-25-2004, 09:26 AM
the beetle isn't bad. It was known to last forever.

henk4
08-25-2004, 09:28 AM
When did I say the Beetle was bad?

In your first post.
The first car you are now saying to refer to failed to meet this thread's lower limit of 500.000 cars produced. That why we all assumed you were talking about the THE Beetle.

:Exige:
08-25-2004, 10:03 AM
It did reach 500,000 units. Im not going to reply to this thread again because I offered an apology but you carried on.

Edit : And if you read my 1st post properly I said 1940's Beetle

henk4
08-25-2004, 10:19 AM
It did reach 500,000 units. Im not going to reply to this thread again because I offered an apology but you carried on.

Edit : And if you read my 1st post properly I said 1940's Beetle

Look I am just trying to tell you what happened. The Beetle as we know it today was introduced in 1936, and factories were made to start mass production of the car. Then (1939) the war intervened and the Volkswagen had to produce the Kuebelwagen. After the end of the war the production of the Beetle got into gear, with the main external difference to the prewar model was the presence of the split rear window. The prewar version had no window at all.

I am not sure what you actually apologised for, so I did not know what to accept, but as far as I am concerned, no hard feelings.

Karrmann
08-25-2004, 11:57 AM
yes and tthe aircooled Beetle was still produced in Mexico and Production was ceased just recently to let the New beetle take over the line.

Matra et Alpine
08-25-2004, 04:00 PM
.... After the end of the war the production of the Beetle got into gear, with the main external difference to the prewar model was the presence of the split rear window.
and the person responsible for getting the factory open and production restarted was a British army Captain - so it's the Brits to blame :)

taz_rocks_miami
08-25-2004, 04:19 PM
dont take this the rong way, but the betlle is one of the symbols of the car industry and i think almost everyone of us would like to have one in our car collection.

Not me man!!! I hate the damn thing, I just drove a 1994 model yesterday. Noisy, slow, uncomfortable, UGLY, notchiest shifter on the planet and really bad brakes!!! I'm glad they stopped making them.

Matra et Alpine
08-25-2004, 04:56 PM
Not me man!!! I hate the damn thing, I just drove a 1994 model yesterday. Noisy, slow, uncomfortable, UGLY, notchiest shifter on the planet and really bad brakes!!! I'm glad they stopped making them.
As you're in Mexico, the reason for most of the above is the lack of a decent (ANY?) service since it left the factory !!!!! :)

henk4
08-26-2004, 01:28 AM
and the person responsible for getting the factory open and production restarted was a British army Captain - so it's the Brits to blame :)

OMG now you will be banned by Exige :D

IBrake4Rainbows
08-26-2004, 01:33 AM
You couldn't really say the Trabant was a best seller, considering their really was no other choice, and when their was, the Trabant was utterly disowned.

A good australian car to add to this is the Holden Camira, Great driver, but really shoddily built, and so the car was disowned, even when it became a decent car.

henk4
08-26-2004, 01:41 AM
You couldn't really say the Trabant was a best seller, considering their really was no other choice, and when their was, the Trabant was utterly disowned.


There also was the Wartburg :) which sold less.

taz_rocks_miami
08-26-2004, 11:16 AM
As you're in Mexico, the reason for most of the above is the lack of a decent (ANY?) service since it left the factory !!!!! :)

Actually, it's a friends car, she keeps it very well maintained. Service is not a problem for the Beattle in Mexico. As you might remember when you came to Mexico City, they are EVERYWARE!!! And not only do the deales know how to service them. Any car mechanic here can. It's just a bad car dude, let's face it.:)

I'm talking about a 1994 "classic" Beatle Matra, not the "New" one BTW :D

Matra et Alpine
08-26-2004, 12:43 PM
Actually, it's a friends car, she keeps it very well maintained. Service is not a problem for the Beattle in Mexico. As you might remember when you came to Mexico City, they are EVERYWARE!!! And not only do the deales know how to service them. Any car mechanic here can.
Different experiences - maybe things have improved :)

It's just a bad car dude, let's face it.:)

I'm talking about a 1994 "classic" Beatle Matra, not the "New" one BTW :D
Yep, just like their is only one Mini, I consider the 'new' Beetle just to be a Golf with curves :)
BTW, Beetle competed in rallying and did well in classes for a while. So it's not all bad !!!

taz_rocks_miami
08-26-2004, 04:40 PM
Yep, just like their is only one Mini, I consider the 'new' Beetle just to be a Golf with curves :)

I agree on both counts, even though I kinda like the "new" mini.



BTW, Beetle competed in rallying and did well in classes for a while. So it's not all bad !!!
What did it compete against?? :confused: Other insecs?? :D

Matra et Alpine
08-27-2004, 03:12 AM
I agree on both counts, even though I kinda like the "new" mini.
:(
Saw my foirst Mini convertiable yesterday and it is ugly. The hinges for the rear boot are just UGLY. Somebody wanted to recreate the origanl Mini hinges as it hinges from the bottm. Instead they just created 2 ugle carbucles that make the rear look BLECH
:(

What did it compete against?? :confused: Other insecs?? :D
Remember that prior to the 911, the beetle was proving the rear engine RWD.
Great grip - the reason why Skoda's were class winners for years as well.

1st in 1953/4/5/7/62 Safari Rally <- pretty impressive huh ????
2nd 1961 Swedish against the best world rally cars of the day - Saab 96.
2nd 1963 British Rally
and a lot more :)
http://www.rallybugs.com/images/Arzberger/alpfahrt.jpg

Lots of info on their competition on road and track at http://www.rallybugs.com/

henk4
08-27-2004, 03:23 AM
I think you also could squeeze in a Carrera Fuhrmann engine.

GrimaH
08-30-2004, 07:36 PM
Wait a min... seems like we're going out of point here...

crisis
08-31-2004, 12:20 AM
dont take this the rong way, but the betlle is one of the symbols of the car industry and i think almost everyone of us would like to have one in our car collection.
No they wouldnt. I am proud to say I dont get it. Aesthetics aside, I fail to see what a 20hp, ill handling, awful sounding, gutless box like this inspires in people. I know its classic but how about some substance. And my mate who owns a supercharged 100 series LAndcruiser, a 500hp 350 Torana race car and another 350 V8 Torana road car with nitrous also has a vw powered ( I use that term loosely) beach buggy and a venerable beetle. Then my next door neighbour who owns a Ford Explorer (ok thats suspicious) and a 76 Corvette show car also has a beetle which he persists to drive instead of the others. The beetle is evil hear me, evil! It casts it spell on the unwary. Resist I emplore you, resesist!

Matra et Alpine
08-31-2004, 03:42 AM
Wait a min... seems like we're going out of point here...
the Rover diversion has been pulled into it's own thread :)

Matra et Alpine
08-31-2004, 03:45 AM
No they wouldnt. I am proud to say I dont get it. Aesthetics aside, I fail to see what a 20hp, ill handling, awful sounding, gutless box like this inspires in people.
so how many cars have you driven that have won world rallies ??

The compeition point about beetles is the engien was real easy to tune and maintain. For a rear engined car (BIG caveat) it's actually got quite nice handling and didn't have any huge vice ( even it's rear-exits were more controllable than the first 911s !!! )

crisis
08-31-2004, 06:02 PM
so how many cars have you driven that have won world rallies ?
None,much like anyone else who has driven a VW. Im sure the rally winner was either heavily modified or the product of some set of fortunate (for the VW) circumstances. A Min won one of our Bathurst races once against big V8 sedans. That they had all retired for some reason or other possibly helped.


The compeition point about beetles is the engien was real easy to tune and maintain. For a rear engined car (BIG caveat) it's actually got quite nice handling and didn't have any huge vice ( even it's rear-exits were more controllable than the first 911s !!! )
It has good handling because it has no power. The firstPorsche 911 would have undoubtably been a quite similar base?

Matra et Alpine
09-01-2004, 03:44 AM
None,much like anyone else who has driven a VW. Im sure the rally winner was either heavily modified or the product of some set of fortunate (for the VW) circumstances.
and so was EVERY other car that ever won a rally :)
Did you check out the link I gave, that would have to be LOTS of "fortunate circumstances" !!!

A Min won one of our Bathurst races once against big V8 sedans. That they had all retired for some reason or other possibly helped.
and the Mini used to win LOTS of saloon races in the UK against the big Ford Galaxies. That the Mini was in a position to win is creditable and seems to be getting ignored :) That the Mini didnt' blow an engine on that long straight down from the Mt is pretty impressive !!!

It has good handling because it has no power. The firstPorsche 911 would have undoubtably been a quite similar base?
It has 'reasonable' ( I'd never call it great ) handling becuse of it's weight distribution and the realtively light weight of the engine and tranny. Just like the old Imps. As for 911s, as their power increased ( initially thorugh enthusiasts tuning ) they were a nightmare on loose stuff. THAT was the point I was making, the Beetle was a bit better behaved on loose than the early 911s. It took Porsche a LONG TIME to sort out the 911 handling and folks often forget or never realised that.
But, yes, the VW was a small engine and wasn't going to set the heather alight with it's power. But, do I really need to repeat myself (?), on rallies especailly and on twisty tracks power is NOT everything :)

fpv_gtho
09-01-2004, 03:50 AM
That the Mini didnt' blow an engine on that long straight down from the Mt is pretty impressive !!!


i wonder if it al being downhill had anything to do with it :p

Matra et Alpine
09-01-2004, 04:46 AM
i wonder if it al being downhill had anything to do with it :p
The B-series engines could count the time at max revs in a couple of minutes.
The wear rate on the cams and followers on a tuned head with race springs was huge !!

That was OK for most racing/rallying as you seldom were that flat out.
I reckon you'd use it all up in 2 laps of Mt Panorama :)
Never really thought about it before, but wonder what head and cams they ran for the Bathurst......

fpv_gtho
09-01-2004, 05:11 AM
i suppose that gearing modifications wouldve been out of the question, but in an overdrive so the car can be brought up to speed then just kept at speed whilst ticking around at 4000rpm. you would think it could work on Conrod Straight as its downhill, but the car's wouldve run into trouble going up the mountain, up Mountain Straight

Matra et Alpine
09-01-2004, 07:07 AM
i suppose that gearing modifications wouldve been out of the question, but in an overdrive so the car can be brought up to speed then
No chance of fitting an overdrive in a Mini 'box/diff. Just no space.

THinking this through, I wonder what 'box they ran. The standard Mini's then were 4 gear. 5 gears only came later for the competition guys. Has me intrigued, will need to go do some digging :) Anyone have pics or know the vin or reg of the Mini's raced at Bathurst ????

fpv_gtho
09-02-2004, 12:45 AM
The only year they won outright was 1966 and that was with the Cooper S.

http://www.v8supercars.com.au/resource/bathurst/overallwin.asp?ind=M

motorsportnerd
09-02-2004, 06:13 AM
A Min won one of our Bathurst races once against big V8 sedans. That they had all retired for some reason or other possibly helped.

1966, as FPV said. Quick history lesson. 1966 was a strange year at Bathurst. The Cortina GTs that had dominated the three previous years were missing. It was one year before the first Falcon GT arrived on the scene. The only V8s were two Valiant V8s and a Studebaker Lark. Just one Holden - an EH X2 6 cylinder. One Triumph 2000. A Fiat 1500, Toyota Corona, and a bunch of other small cars. And 17 Mini Coopers... It was kind of inevitable that a Mini would win that year. In fact, Minis took the first 9 places.... That's a record never beaten. Holden took the top 7 places in 1976 and 1980, the top 8 in 1979 and no other manufacturer has come close.