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fpv_gtho
08-26-2004, 04:26 AM
http://drive.com.au/news/article.asp?article=http://drive.fairfax.com.au/content-new/news/general/2004/08/26/FFXXFFHSBYD.html


Seems like theres never enough alternatives to petrol around these days.

r1ckst4
08-26-2004, 04:56 AM
:D :D :D i dont know whether thats a bad thing or a good thing that they find a new way to power cars... but i have to say... thats a really good invention!

:Exige:
08-26-2004, 05:57 AM
Do you have to buy the air in cannisters? I would think that It would be running at quite high PSI. Lol - 100% Forced Induction - Atleast we wouldnt have to get rid of Turbos :) !

Matra et Alpine
08-26-2004, 06:33 AM
I just LOVE marketing hype :)

"capable of producing about the same amount of power as a 5-litre V8 petrol engine. It weighs only 13 kilograms, compared with about 90 kilograms for conventional designs."

So, to get THAT much energy out of compressed air it will have to be at HUGE pressures. Huge air pressures need VERY STRONG pressure vessels which are going to weigh a hell of a lot more than the 73kg weight difference.
And if we assume you are capable of using maximum air pressure to meet that power then by the time the tank is half full you're actually only gettign half the power output :)

The 'problem' with the petrol/diesel engine is it's simplicty in energy storage in terms of unburtn fuel in the fuel tank.

What you really want is to know total weight of the engine SYSTEM including energy (fuel/air) storage :)

Tha_killa69
08-26-2004, 07:42 AM
If you think about it...all cars need air to run:P

henk4
08-26-2004, 07:43 AM
Furthermore you would like to know how much energy is needed to compress the air.

Wolf03
08-26-2004, 09:58 AM
I don't care what new wacky inventions come into the world. All I care about is to get rid of the gasoline engines and cars. :) It's amazing at how much these cars pollute, especially SUVs. Companies should be releasing more cars like the Ford Escape Hybrid, Honda Civic Hybrid and the up-coming Honda Accord Hybrid. They don't have to have disgusting designs like the Toyota Prius or the Honda Insight. All they have to do is change the engine. That's it. I know this compressed air engine cannot be used on large vehicles but they could be used on motorcycles, compact cars and other utilities.

Matra et Alpine
08-26-2004, 10:35 AM
I don't care what new wacky inventions come into the world. All I care about is to get rid of the gasoline engines and cars. :) It's amazing at how much these cars pollute, especially SUVs. Companies should be releasing more cars like the Ford Escape Hybrid, Honda Civic Hybrid and the up-coming Honda Accord Hybrid.
or the numerous PSA diesel engined cars - all beating the Escape and Prius :)

They don't have to have disgusting designs like the Toyota Prius or the Honda Insight. All they have to do is change the engine.
yep, see above :)

That's it. I know this compressed air engine cannot be used on large vehicles but they could be used on motorcycles, compact cars and other utilities.
Actually it would be worse on smaller vehicles unless they are short distance and close to recharge points.
NEVER work on a motorcycle, you couldn't steer a thing with a pressure vessel in the frame :)
Compact cars can already achieve 3 times the 'average' US and double the 'average' Eureopean petrol, so why bother ??

And HOW would the air pressure be created, stored and dispensed ?
Pipes need to cope with the pressure in the pressure vessel - oops flaw in the proposal. Storing energy in a gas by compression is about as inefficient as it can get :(

GTR Dreamer
08-26-2004, 11:44 PM
they r wasting their time....

Egg Nog
08-27-2004, 01:53 AM
they r wasting their time....

The world's technology wouldn't have gotten very far with this mindset.

By the way, I like the French air-powered car much better - this came out nearly five years ago (I actually wrote an essay partially featuring it), so I wouldn't be to quick to herald this Aussie one as too revolutionary, or at least not the first of its kind :)

Engine specs here:
http://www.theaircar.com/howitworks.html

UK CARS
08-27-2004, 03:35 AM
How do you messure air?

johnnynumfiv
08-27-2004, 03:51 AM
The idea seems like it can be played with to make something efficient. Air is measured in PSI and CFM.

GTR Dreamer
08-27-2004, 04:04 AM
The world's technology wouldn't have gotten very far with this mindset.

yea, i guess :p

fpv_gtho
08-27-2004, 06:13 AM
ICompanies should be releasing more cars like the Ford Escape Hybrid, Honda Civic Hybrid and the up-coming Honda Accord Hybrid. They don't have to have disgusting designs like the Toyota Prius or the Honda Insight.


Dont let Karrman hear you say that about the Prius :p

Hybrids are one step into the future, i personally would like to see an attempt at a diesel electric hybrid. Apart from that though we've got diesel engines right now starting to put petrol engines to shame, GM, Honda and Toyota it would seem developing hydrogen fuel cells, whilst Mazda has looked at a hydrogen IC rotary

Egg Nog
08-27-2004, 06:49 PM
How do you messure air?

A combination of volume and pressure.

KnifeEdge_2K1
08-28-2004, 12:47 AM
I don't care what new wacky inventions come into the world. All I care about is to get rid of the gasoline engines and cars. :) It's amazing at how much these cars pollute, especially SUVs. Companies should be releasing more cars like the Ford Escape Hybrid, Honda Civic Hybrid and the up-coming Honda Accord Hybrid. They don't have to have disgusting designs like the Toyota Prius or the Honda Insight. All they have to do is change the engine. That's it. I know this compressed air engine cannot be used on large vehicles but they could be used on motorcycles, compact cars and other utilities.

you do know the hybrid still has a petrol engine right?
and as for the battery which stores the power .. how much polution do you think that's gonna cause ? didnt think bout that now did ya?
and i agree with you about suvs, they're totally pointless, there is nothing about them that is superior to a normal car or station wagon

cargo space? are you kidding me, you cant use all the space anyways, most suvs cant hold 5 people without pushing past the max gross weight limit and you're talking about cargo? pff
and with a center of gravity above my neck most of these fall over faster than cows, and no they cant get back up either

Matra et Alpine
08-28-2004, 03:18 AM
How do you messure air?A combination of volume and pressure.
Now I hear my Chem teacher screaming "MOLES", you measure molecules in MOLES.
Which of course are the mass of substance containing the same number of fundamental units as there are atoms in exactly 12g of Carbon-12.

I can just see the look on the teller at the forecourt when you go in to fill up your car with 2,000 moles of Oxygen, 8,000 moles of Nitrogen :)

EDIT: It's the weekend, I liek playing the smart-ass at weekends :) !!!!

KnifeEdge_2K1
08-28-2004, 09:08 PM
if you're so smart what's the chemical composition of gasoline?

fpv_gtho
08-29-2004, 03:26 AM
gasoline is a bit of a broad description dont u think? i mean, fuels with over 20 hydrcarbons, 6 groups of them being classified as gasolines

Matra et Alpine
08-29-2004, 06:09 AM
gasoline is a bit of a broad description dont u think? i mean, fuels with over 20 hydrcarbons, 6 groups of them being classified as gasolines
:) thanks fpv :)

"Gasoline" depends on the company too.
Local BP facory produces fuel for all the majors in Scotland - the difference is the mix of HCs and the 'special' additives ( one of which was 'shared' and yet sold on the forecourt as "unique" :) )
My rally driver is ex-BP employee, if you REALLY want all the details I coudl get it :)
But you name the make and octane and I'll give you the UK mix - oh fuels are different for different regions of the world and in the US different States :)

fpv_gtho
08-29-2004, 08:45 PM
well heres what i got, courtesy of my Yr9 text book from last yr:

The distillation of crude oil produces 6 different products: petroleum gases, gasoline, naptha, kerosene, diesel oils and residue. petroleum gases have fuels of up to 4 HC's, gasolines have fuels of 5-10 HC's, naptha has HC's between 8 and 12, kerosene 10-16, diesel oils 14-20 and residue has over 20.

the gasolines by the way are pentane, hexane, heptane, octane, nonane and decane

Matra et Alpine
08-30-2004, 02:48 AM
the gasolines by the way are pentane, hexane, heptane, octane, nonane and decane
and in the unleaded 'gasoline' that comes out at the pumps there are significant proportion of benzene ring hydrocarbons. These are the ones responsible for the 'sweet' odour often noticed in modern 'gas'.

Whilst these ARE present in crude, they are remanucfactured in cracking and reformatino towers to produce a higher octane mix ....


heptane -> toluene + hydrogen
C7H16 -> C7H8 + 4H2

cyclohexane -> benzene + hydrogen
C6H12 -> C6H6 + 3H2

They are also accepted as carcinogenic, so be careful out there :)

We hit the limits of UCP text to give you all the chamicals used as additives to stabilise the liquid, improve flame efficiency and control octane level :)

Suggest you do a simple google search and there are many sites which will give you ALL the details. The best mate pointed me at is unfortunaley in Russian, but it has chromatography of petrol AND additives, so you can see everything ( in Cyrillic :) ) -- http://www.unichrom.com/lib/chromlibe.php

Can we please stop this pissing-contest now, KnifeEdge ??

megotmea7
08-30-2004, 07:11 PM
ever taken a big gulp of 91 octane? that'll tell you everything you want to know about the fuel as your throwing it up for the next 2 hours :(

i talk from experience :( :(

Blue Supra
08-31-2004, 05:58 AM
ever taken a big gulp of 91 octane? that'll tell you everything you want to know about the fuel as your throwing it up for the next 2 hours :(

i talk from experience :( :(

explain! :eek: this i have to hear! ;)

danno
09-01-2004, 03:34 AM
ethanol is another source of energy that can be used, but it only releases about 1/4 of the energy of a similar amount of petrol. Hydrogen is another alternative to petrol, and the only emissions would be water. Im not sure how much energy the combustion of Hydrogen releases, but i dont think it would release as much as petrol either.

what we need to do is to make a synthetic substance from renewable resources (eg cellulose) which will release a heap of energy in combustion, but will release gases that can then be used for other things.

Matra et Alpine
09-01-2004, 04:48 AM
what we need to do is to make a synthetic substance from renewable resources (eg cellulose) which will release a heap of energy in combustion, but will release gases that can then be used for other things.

Guiness and Old Peculiar gets you 2 out of 3 :)

danno
09-01-2004, 05:02 AM
please explain.

Matra et Alpine
09-01-2004, 06:54 AM
please explain.
joke.

Guuness - Irish Stout
Old Peculiar - Theakston's Old Peculiar - English beer, very strong.

Renewable and produce gas :) But so far I don't think anyone has tried to power an engine with them.

danno
09-01-2004, 08:34 PM
joke.

Guuness - Irish Stout
Old Peculiar - Theakston's Old Peculiar - English beer, very strong.

Renewable and produce gas :) But so far I don't think anyone has tried to power an engine with them.

lol!! ok, i knew what guiness was but i wasnt sure if you were actually referring to it.

im doing chemistry atm. if you can tell me the structure and chemical formula of those 2 then i can work out for you whether it will combust easily and how much energy will be given out :)

megotmea7
09-02-2004, 03:49 AM
explain! this i have to hear!
siphoning fuel out of my jet ski last year, more fuel in the tank than i thought with a shorter hose than i thought. i spent at least 2 hours drinking water and forcing myself to throw up. i downed quite a bit of the stuff

Matra et Alpine
09-02-2004, 06:05 AM
Mine was with diesel out of a truck.
Thicker pipe and denser liquid and it was a hard suck :)
But when it started to flow it was LOTS, covered myself in diesel ( horible stuff ) swallowed a fair amount of it. Threw up to get rid of it and spent the next 12 hours no farther than 2 steps from a toilet - diesel is more effective than caster oil :(