Russian Hostage Crisis

[Coventrysucks]

Is anyone else following this?
There has been live coverage here pretty much all day after it all kicked off.

Apparently a few children tried to escape, the terrorists shot at them, and the Russian armed forces decided to take action, fearing that the terrorists would start a wholesale slaughter.

The terrorist then set off a mine/bomb in the gymnasium, where most of the hostages were reported to be.

A very chaotic few hours later-
(GMT)
0905: Explosions and gunfire heard. Soldiers run to building
0930: School roof said to have collapsed
0958: Special forces enter school
1115: All hostages reported out of school
1125: Security forces attack house where some rebels thought to be hiding - reports
1322: More than 400 people injured, officials say (219 children)
1330: Security services say their assault on school was not planned
1345: More than 100 bodies found in school gym - Interfax
1407: 10 hostage-takers killed in shoot-outs - Interfax

Latest reports say that 3 militants are barricaded in the school basement, possibly including the militant leader.

The White House has stated that the hostage taking was a "barbaric act" and they "Stand by Russia".

Just goes to show that Terrorism ≠ Al Qaida

:(

[Delmaster]

Yes, seen it on TV. There was a livecam.
Terrible..... those children won't forget this ever.

How can those people think with actions like this they could do something usefull to the russia-chechenia conflict which goes for more than 300 years now?

[Mustang]

there were like 3 channels here on normal TV covering it all morning with live cams on the action.

terrible what some people do :SS

[Tuscan666]

What a wounderful world we live in!

Last time i checked it was 3 dead :o wow news in russia always seems to get worse as the day goes on.

[Renesis]

and it gets worse:

http://www.boston.com/dailynews/247/world/Russian_forces_storm_school_10:.shtml

[r1ckst4]

may the victims who were killed rest in peace... :(

[Rijoh]

I just heard on radio that explosive went off... 100 hostages died....

[UK CARS]

Shouldnt there of been a plan for action to be taken in the night...surely they should have known they carnt wait for ever????

[Matra et Alpine]

wow news in russia always seems to get worse as the day goes on.
Interestingly their was an ex-SAS guy discussing the mornind and repeated that in the UK there woudl have been NO camera, NO press, their woudl be a minimum 1 mile exclusion and it policed by special forces with order to shoot anyone not a hostage.

So in the UK at least, you'd have had NO news except for official channels.

Seeing it 'live' like this is unusual and is bound to create speculation and reporting in dribs and drabs.

Condolences go to the victims and wishes for a peaceful conclusion of the Chechyan 'situation' :(

[Tuscan666]

Interestingthat was matra!

Did u hear that the gunmen soaked the hostages cloths in water and they had to suck the water out or summit lol...some weirdc rap u hear on news....

[Hell_Unleashed]

I been following it for a while... its all f**ked up man... My condolences to all the innocent victims involved as well... I definitely don't take it for granted how lucky I am...

[Mustang]

Did anyone see the news report,

aparently when the russian soldiers raided the building and blew down one of the walls so that hostages could escape, it also colapesed part of the roof. the thing is that the roof was now on fire and had about 18 bombs strapped to it, when that landed there were loads of people trapped who burnt to death.

so far there are supposed to be about 650 in hspital and 15 dead :mad:

[Tuscan666]

i heard the dead was in the 100's

[SlickHolden]

What place is more unsafe ?? Iraq or a hostage in Russian :(
They have got some huge problems with the way the handle things in these situations :mad:
Last news i herd was they seen about 100 chared bodys in there :(

[Doctor_Gonzo]

latest news: more than 100 peoples died, 556 are in hospitals.

Last 2 weeks there were 5 terrorist actions in my country: 2 explodes, 2 planes were destroyed by terrorists and this school... Every day people think about death. It can get us everywhere.. Nobody wants to die. But we can't stop this war. I have no other comments about this. It's terrible.

[d-quik]

What place is more unsafe ?? Iraq or a hostage in Russian :(
They have got some huge problems with the way the handle things in these situations :mad:
Last news i herd was they seen about 100 chared bodys in there :(Buddy, it was the best they could do. And "hostage in Russian"? I think you meant "hostage in Russia"

People can't actually expect the kremlin to give into the demands (talk to a politician, and the release of political prisoners) just because they are holding on to hostages? Rebels will then think "Oh cool, just get some hostages and the government will do whatever we demand."

Anyways, the way they handled it was the best they could do. I wouldn't complain.

If it was Israel, the Special Forces woulda just stormed in, kill the hostage takers and 50 hostages on the way, and call it a success.

[Tero]

first the two plane's crashed then this what next... its getting stupid.. what actually drives people to do these horrible things.

[UK CARS]

Anyways, the way they handled it was the best they could do. I wouldn't complain

The best.....you kidding?
Why didnt they hold the parents back?
Why were they shooting in ramdom windows?
Why did they have no snipers?
Why did they have no mission plan?
Why was there no organisation?
Why didnt they act sooner?

I recently watch a series of programs, showing how the British Sas are the most elite special forces in the world. It went through a selection of procedures that the Sas go through one was Counter terorism, and itelligence. The ways and methods of these are incredible! It also showed you the Iranian embassy seige, which is one of the most succesfull hostage missions in history. What im getting to is that Intellingence and speed is essential....If the russains had done what they said they said they had, we might not be talking about this now. :(

[taz_rocks_miami]

may the victims who were killed rest in peace... :(

Same here. How can anyone even think a harming children, much less shoot at them!!!! :mad: That really pisses me off!!! :mad: I hope those rebels burn in hell!!! :mad:

[SlickHolden]

Buddy, it was the best they could do. And "hostage in Russian"? I think you meant "hostage in Russia"

People can't actually expect the kremlin to give into the demands (talk to a politician, and the release of political prisoners) just because they are holding on to hostages? Rebels will then think "Oh cool, just get some hostages and the government will do whatever we demand."

Anyways, the way they handled it was the best they could do. I wouldn't complain.

If it was Israel, the Special Forces woulda just stormed in, kill the hostage takers and 50 hostages on the way, and call it a success.
Guess you forgot what happend last time they stormed in :rolleyes:
This is just tipical of them the way they handle things.

[SlickHolden]

The best.....you kidding?
Why didnt they hold the parents back?
Why were they shooting in ramdom windows?
Why did they have no snipers?
Why did they have no mission plan?
Why was there no organisation?
Why didnt they act sooner?

I recently watch a series of programs, showing how the British Sas are the most elite special forces in the world. It went through a selection of procedures that the Sas go through one was Counter terorism, and itelligence. The ways and methods of these are incredible! It also showed you the Iranian embassy seige, which is one of the most succesfull hostage missions in history. What im getting to is that Intellingence and speed is essential....If the russains had done what they said they said they had, we might not be talking about this now. :(
Right on, No plan = Errors = deaths :(

Your lucky we don't get to see or hardly hear about anything our S.A.S does there like the MIB. :confused:

[Tuscan666]

SAS are the best counter terorism in the world. I heard if it was over here they would of closed the place off in a mile radius and let no news crew near the place. SAS have some very interesting programmes i think always a good watch.

who dares, wins :p

[SlickHolden]

S.A.S here we don't see them we know they are doing things but what is all secret, They are so protected in the public that you could have a beer with one and not even know he is S.A.S.
We got some info when they wen't to Iraq that was the first time ever we were told something they did.
And if they could hert inocent people they will stop they don't take risks with peoples lifes :)

[UK CARS]

The Australian SAS regiment,is based on the British original. So there :D

And there reports of a even more elite group....of the sas, not even the M.o.D know about it, lol.

[UK CARS]

Shit, 300 hundred killed now!!!

[SlickHolden]

The Australian SAS regiment,is based on the British original. So there :D

And there reports of a even more elite group....of the sas, not even the M.o.D know about it, lol.
But who led who in iraq lol :p Your guys and special forces yanks were under a aussie SAS command :eek:

[SlickHolden]

Did they take a hole school with all the kids and teaches ?:(

[d-quik]

I concur, the SAS is the best trained special forces out there, there really isn't anything remotely close.

As for the Army, the American is the most powerful (obviously) but when it comes down to the actually TRAINING and SKILLS of the SOLDIERS, its either the Israeli or the French Foreign Legion.

[taz_rocks_miami]

I concur, the SAS is the best trained special forces out there, there really isn't anything remotely close.

As for the Army, the American is the most powerful (obviously) but when it comes down to the actually TRAINING and SKILLS of the SOLDIERS, its either the Israeli or the French Foreign Legion.

You're all forgeting:

US Army: Delta
US Navy: Seals
USMC: Black Ops (Never heard of them? They like it that way:))

[Coventrysucks]

The best.....you kidding?
Why didnt they hold the parents back?
Why were they shooting in ramdom windows?
Why did they have no snipers?
Why did they have no mission plan?
Why was there no organisation?
Why didnt they act sooner?

I recently watch a series of programs, showing how the British Sas are the most elite special forces in the world. It went through a selection of procedures that the Sas go through one was Counter terorism, and itelligence. The ways and methods of these are incredible! It also showed you the Iranian embassy seige, which is one of the most succesfull hostage missions in history. What im getting to is that Intellingence and speed is essential....If the russains had done what they said they said they had, we might not be talking about this now. :(

Your right, the S.A.S are better at this type of thing.
They have excellent, highly selective, intensive training.
They have the best tactics, the best equipment.

The Russians don't, that is why they weren't very successful.

The Hostage takers were refusing to negotiate, and threatening to kill everyone.
They opened fire on some children, what did you expect the Russians to just sit there and allow them to start a wholesale slaughter?

You can only do a job with the tools in hand.

It could have been a lot worse.

[Matra et Alpine]

You're all forgeting:

US Army: Delta
US Navy: Seals
USMC: Black Ops (Never heard of them? They like it that way:))
Do you really want us to list the cock-ups by the first 2 ?
And those unknown cockups that we assume were "black ops" :)

[NAZCA C2]

After the botched theatre attack (2 years ago i think) in Russia the Chechans are probably going to get more bold with their attacks. What does Russian want with Chechnya anyway? Its a wasteland.

[taz_rocks_miami]

Do you really want us to list the cock-ups by the first 2 ?

I hope you're not referring to the "Black Hawn Down" fiasco. Besides, that was planned and screwed up by US Army Ranger commanders. Rangers are trained for unconventional warfare, not Special Forces opperations. Delta was there as a back up unit.


And those unknown cockups that we assume were "black ops" :)

These Marines are more than a match for even the Special Air Service. Unkown, like I said, they like it that way.

[Spastik_Roach]

I heard the deaths were in the 150's!!

[taz_rocks_miami]

Damn it!!!! Why children!!!??? A**holes!!!

[Fowler]

Christ the russians are getting it bad.

Trust me when I say this: Spetsnaz has the best equipment out there, counter terrorist operations just arent their main specialty (last time I checked, anyway). Leadership had more to do with the tragedy taking place than anything else.

[d-quik]

You're all forgeting:

US Army: Delta
US Navy: Seals
USMC: Black Ops (Never heard of them? They like it that way:)) I HAVE heard of them.

First of all, these forces ARE good but does not even compare to the British marines, SAS, and the FFL.

The British marines are precedeeded by (ALWAYS) a 20 WEEK long training course.
The SAS is simply the best for tactics hands down, no questions asked.
And the French Foreign Legion, simply, are constantly fighting.

The three groups you listed are quite elite indeed, but have not underwent th3e same vigourous training, and aren't as experienced as the FFL.

I am not saying they are bad, they are good, but they arent the best. Either that or they are too technology-dependant. Too much video games or too much Americanization.

NOTE: The Delta Force, at first, tried to hide their existence but failed miserably. They still go out to battle without any American Flags, or any signs of what side they are on, which is kinda cool.:)

[Matra et Alpine]

I hope you're not referring to the "Black Hawn Down" fiasco. Besides, that was planned and screwed up by US Army Ranger commanders. Rangers are trained for unconventional warfare, not Special Forces opperations. Delta was there as a back up unit.
I was thinking of the VERY public fiasco in Iran with helo's downed on the way IN to get the hostages !!

These Marines are more than a match for even the Special Air Service. Unkown, like I said, they like it that way.
Well as they all trace their training back to the Commando units formed and trained in Scotland during WW2, you shoudl have some good guys.
Don't know I'd ever want to put the best up against the best, but no doubt our governments do in training and we don't get to here.
Oh, and if you're going to pull the "black ops" ultra-secret, do you REALLY think the SAS are the 'elite' or just the PUBLIC 'elite' :)
I love conspiracy theories :) :)

[Blue Supra]

I was watching "Australian Story" a couple of months ago on the ABC and it follwed an anonymous soldier through basic training for SAS, very interesting stuff, they use completely different weapons to regular army, have to run further, stay awake longer, know more about everything, and just basically be a hell of a unit! you have to be able to run yes RUN 20ks with a full kit in under some ridiculous time just to qualify to be tested for SAS training! :eek:

[henk4]

After the botched theatre attack (2 years ago i think) in Russia the Chechans are probably going to get more bold with their attacks. What does Russian want with Chechnya anyway? Its a wasteland.

Like Iraq, it has oil and lots of it.

[lithuanianmafia]

death count currently at around 200, 600 in hospital

[taz_rocks_miami]

I HAVE heard of them.

First of all, these forces ARE good but does not even compare to the British marines, SAS, and the FFL. Delta, and Seals don't compare to US Marine units either.


The British marines are precedeeded by (ALWAYS) a 20 WEEK long training course.

The US Marine Corp is no slouch either. Boot camp (basic training is two weeks shorter tham British Marines, but US Marine recruits have to go through the crusible at the end in order to earn the right to be called Marines. The crusible is a 74 hour long version of hell, were they get no sleep, no food, only water. And are put though every kind of exercise you can name, and then march back 16 miles back to camp. If a recruit fails at any point, even a foot away from camp, he or she doesn't get the title of Marine. That's just boot camp mind you, Marine Special Forces go thruogh much worse. These guys are very very well trained, and tough as nails, don't underestimate them.



The SAS is simply the best for tactics hands down, no questions asked.

There is no way to really know that, unless they go head to head.


And the French Foreign Legion, simply, are constantly fighting.

The three groups you listed are quite elite indeed, but have not underwent th3e same vigourous training, and aren't as experienced as the FFL.

I am not saying they are bad, they are good, but they arent the best. Either that or they are too technology-dependant. Too much video games or too much Americanization.

NOTE: The Delta Force, at first, tried to hide their existence but failed miserably. They still go out to battle without any American Flags, or any signs of what side they are on, which is kinda cool.:)

The French Foriegn Legion is more like our Rangers or Green Berets. Trained in unconventional warfare but not really Special Forces. And...are you telling me that British Marines, SAS and FFL units have never played video games??? Americanization??? I have no idea what you mean by that. As far as experience goes...well, not many countries have gone into battle more times than the USA. Not saying it's a good thing, but it's true.

[SlickHolden]

I was watching "Australian Story" a couple of months ago on the ABC and it follwed an anonymous soldier through basic training for SAS, very interesting stuff, they use completely different weapons to regular army, have to run further, stay awake longer, know more about everything, and just basically be a hell of a unit! you have to be able to run yes RUN 20ks with a full kit in under some ridiculous time just to qualify to be tested for SAS training! :eek:
And also they can stay out longer then anyone else live off what ever they find live of nature they say. Some say they have been taught by the aboriginals to live off the land that's there secret :eek: .

Anyone here about the special Iraq unit that were sent to kill the Aussie SAS ? They were out there searching for them there job hunt them kill them, Think they had about 1000 after them, Small Aussie SAS group of about 150 which had a very small number of British SAS and American special forces. Anyway they came across them fought for about 7 hours, NOT ONE MAN WAS HURT INJUERD OR KILLED. They took survivors healed the Iraq soldiers that were injured, And moved back on with the misson. Oh i have got to AD this one in They were under the command of the Australian SAS :D

[IBrake4Rainbows]

This is a really bad situation.

I feel for the families of the children lost, and considering that the Russian Army said no firing during the early part of this siege, you can see why by the consequences.

I sympathise with the families of the victims, that was an amazing amount of death for something meant to end peacefully. I know they tried negotiations, what did they offer, was it worth all the blood they just spilt?

[taz_rocks_miami]

I was thinking of the VERY public fiasco in Iran with helo's downed on the way IN to get the hostages !!

That was Army Rangers (again) not Delta. And they failed because the choppers crashed in mid air. Had nothing to do with the units fighting ability.


Well as they all trace their training back to the Commando units formed and trained in Scotland during WW2, you shoudl have some good guys. Don't know I'd ever want to put the best up against the best, but no doubt our governments do in training and we don't get to here.

True, British Comandos were the first to be created. And I agree, I hope our best never goes up against your best. We'd win, but I'm sure the SAS would put up a good fight :) LOL, just kidding.



Oh, and if you're going to pull the "black ops" ultra-secret, do you REALLY think the SAS are the 'elite' or just the PUBLIC 'elite' :) I love conspiracy theories :) :)

I think all our Special Forces are forces to be wreckened with. Ultra secret or not.

[taz_rocks_miami]

I'm watching the news right now, over 250 dead!! Makes me sick to my stomach. I can't even imagine what the families are going through.

[UK CARS]

Taz rock miami,
Why are you so botherd that clearly...The SAS are the better trained and more elite special forces regiment in the world?
Delta Force are no way near as much trained....trust me mate!
Look at the succes rate of there missions. Compare...
If you ever come across:
SAS SURVIVAL SECRETS
SAS Are you tough enough?
Chris ryans surival
Watch em, download them...you will be able to see why.

One element of their crucial training is that someone throws the soilder on a train trach with a blind fold, they have obviously got to figure out what what, This can tell them from a soilder to a Sas soilder, apart from the other intense training plans.

[UK CARS]

You're all forgeting:

US Army: Delta
US Navy: Seals
USMC: Black Ops (Never heard of them? They like it that way:))
Ha.....iraq.....HA ....lmao.....Why? NO mate, NO!

[whiteballz]

australian SAS is THE best, IMO, i hear a small number of SAS squads clearing basicaly the whole way infront of the us armys drive into iraq, sabotaging many things, and i think at one stage, more americans had died in the inital days of iraq of friendly fire then by the royal guard (iraqs best).

im fairly sure that the only thing american special forces are good at are shooting at themselves. how smart do you have to be to shoot your mates? i mean at the end of the day i doubt they were special opps.. but still!!!

[SlickHolden]

That's right the SAS all of them, Are the best trained, Prepared, Best tactics, They do things that others can't, Stay without support and supply's longer then any, They have state of the art weapons and they know better then anyone how to use them.
Got some info on the Aussie SAS from a website A question was there if the Aussie SAS went against the British SAS who would win answer coming up, This guy said they have war games all the time they know each other so well and the way they fight, There would be no winner :) They have fought side by side had war games trained at each others HQ's :) All the SAS train in different country's not just there own, It's a like a exchange student they say :)http://www.pastornet.net.au/fwn/2003/aug/art02.html

P.S you don't wanna know how 2 Aussie SAS guys saved 200 American troops in Afghanistan :D

But doesn't this Russian crisis just get worse with the more details that come to hand, They had no idea there was that many in there terrorist or hostages, They didn't even know very much about the explosives it's sad for the parents :(

[Fowler]

If the russian, american, and british forces were equally well funded, I'd still say the spetsnaz would win.

[Matra et Alpine]

If the russian, american, and british forces were equally well funded, I'd still say the spetsnaz would win.
If they are still trained in 'traditional' Russian tactics then they woudlnt' because they 3woudl be too dependant on senior commands and orders.
The key thing with SAS (all flavours) and Delta are they are trained to asses and act in individuals and teams with and without need for command.
Also, I'm not sure 'spetznaz' have the training or the experience to do it with minimal casualties. Somthing certainly drummed into SAS.

[SlickHolden]

If they are still trained in 'traditional' Russian tactics then they woudlnt' because they 3woudl be too dependant on senior commands and orders.
The key thing with SAS (all flavours) and Delta are they are trained to asses and act in individuals and teams with and without need for command.
Also, I'm not sure 'spetznaz' have the training or the experience to do it with minimal casualties. Somthing certainly drummed into SAS.
What's spetznaz ?

Do you remember when this iraq war started there were rumours that the invasion was on 30 hours before bush said it's on ? And they said no this was crap there are no forces in baghdad ?

[Matra et Alpine]

What's spetznaz ?
It's the 'public' Russina special forces ( workign on the principle that there is ANOTHER organisation we never hear about :) )

Do you remember when this iraq war started there were rumours that the invasion was on 30 hours before bush said it's on ? And they said no this was crap there are no forces in baghdad ?
Are you saying delta or SAS were in or that Bush didnt' know the forces were in :)
Course they were in .... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/03/04/wirq04.xml&sSheet=/portal/2003/03/04/ixportaltop.html

[SlickHolden]

It's the 'public' Russina special forces ( workign on the principle that there is ANOTHER organisation we never hear about :) )
]
So they want us to belive there is something when there isn't ?


Are you saying delta or SAS were in or that Bush didnt' know the forces were in Course they were in
In baghdad fighting before bush told saddam to give up, 48 hours before the first strike in baghdad there were rumors that fighting was allready underway.

[d-quik]

The US Marine Corp is no slouch either. Boot camp (basic training is two weeks shorter tham British Marines, but US Marine recruits have to go through the crusible at the end in order to earn the right to be called Marines. The crusible is a 74 hour long version of hell, were they get no sleep, no food, only water. And are put though every kind of exercise you can name, and then march back 16 miles back to camp. If a recruit fails at any point, even a foot away from camp, he or she doesn't get the title of Marine. That's just boot camp mind you, Marine Special Forces go thruogh much worse. These guys are very very well trained, and tough as nails, don't underestimate them.Just give it up buddy, I already know they are no slouch and I never stated that they were. You have to admit that even as much as the US Marines are trained, the Royal Marines are trained much better. The main reason is that the Americans do not need much more training. The twenty week training I am talking about is just the excercizing and conditioning part of it. It does not include any form of objective courses (like the crusible you talk about). There is absolutely no way that the American Marines are better than the Royal Marines in training. Even if you use common sense, you would see that the US does not NEED that much training because of technological advances.

You have to understand that I am not saying that the US marines suck, that the Royal Marines recieve much better TRAINING, and that I am not an anti-American.
There is no way to really know that, unless they go head to head.Do you really believe this is the "only" way? Well I can tell you that it is not. The first reason is that the US marines are equipped so much better than the British counterpart. It is really hard to compare how well they are trained in way. Same if you do a SEAL -> SAS comaprison.

Anyhow you have got to stop saying "omg omg the USMC rocks and they are good". I agree, but the Royal Marines (not neccesarily BETTER) but more well-trained.

[Matra et Alpine]

Anyhow you have got to stop saying "omg omg the USMC rocks and they are good". I agree, but the Royal Marines (not neccesarily BETTER) but more well-trained.
Precisely this question is why they never allowed the RMs to have a major ship docked at Rosyth in the days when the USMCs chips used to come into Leith. Experience says the 'squaddies' would want to find out :)

[taz_rocks_miami]

Just give it up buddy, I already know they are no slouch and I never stated that they were. You have to admit that even as much as the US Marines are trained, the Royal Marines are trained much better. The main reason is that the Americans do not need much more training. The twenty week training I am talking about is just the excercizing and conditioning part of it. It does not include any form of objective courses (like the crusible you talk about). There is absolutely no way that the American Marines are better than the Royal Marines in training. Even if you use common sense, you would see that the US does not NEED that much training because of technological advances.

You have to understand that I am not saying that the US marines suck, that the Royal Marines recieve much better TRAINING, and that I am not an anti-American.Do you really believe this is the "only" way? Well I can tell you that it is not. The first reason is that the US marines are equipped so much better than the British counterpart. It is really hard to compare how well they are trained in way. Same if you do a SEAL -> SAS comaprison.

Anyhow you have got to stop saying "omg omg the USMC rocks and they are good". I agree, but the Royal Marines (not neccesarily BETTER) but more well-trained.

It sounds to me like you're the ones getting hot headed over the "who is better" issue. I'm not. I respect the SAS and RM, as a once active US Marine I've had the pleasure of training along side them both!! US Marines suck d-quick??? I won't even consider that comment unless you've been in the military. We're a match for anyone you can name, I say that out of experience.

Most of you are talking out of patriotism, nothing wrong with that, but harldy objective. I've seen in person what the SAS, RM and the British Army are capable of. I see them as my equalls. I doubt most of you can say the same about the USMC ,US NAVY or ARMY.

Besides, this thread was started to comment on the tragedy that happened in Russia, not "if we had been there, it would have never happened", fact is that niether was the SAS, RM or USMC there, so arguing about it is pointless.

"Semper Fidelis"

[crisis]

I was thinking of the VERY public fiasco in Iran with helo's downed on the way IN to get the hostages !!


Your a hard man. The very nature of Special ops is that they are fraught with danger. The actual soldiers were not to blame for the clusterf##. It came down to a sand storm and inadequate avionics in the CH53s. I believe an ex SAS mamber had some less that complimentary comments about the first Iraqi war. I wouldnt bag any of them anyhow.

[crisis]

I wonder who in the world will now really give a sh#t abouth the Chechins cause if this is what they can stoop to. The Chechin people should come out and strongly condemn this so that we can know for sure that they are condone these acts.

[Blue Supra]

I wonder who in the world will now really give a sh#t abouth the Chechins cause if this is what they can stoop to. The Chechin people should come out and strongly condemn this so that we can know for sure that they are condone these acts.

The Chechins give sh*t about the chechins. whether they supported it or not after the 40 days of mourning the russians are gunna be mad as hell and will be after retaliation and revenge. :eek:

[crisis]

The Chechins give sh*t about the chechins. whether they supported it or not after the 40 days of mourning the russians are gunna be mad as hell and will be after retaliation and revenge. :eek:
You would think it would be better to encourage others to at least be sympathetic to your cause. It will be difficult to garner much support after this. The stories that are coming out indicate the terorists tortured, raped and generally had a good time at the hostages expense. Its hard to believe without remembering these were mainly kids.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

I was watching a report recently on Sunrise and they had some political advisor who spoke about how every U.S. Government had condemned the actions of the russian goverment on the Chechen front for a while now (Clinton was vocal). Then, when they are classed as terrorists by Putin, all of a sudden they fit into the "War on Terror" plan.

It sucks that they have to stoop to this level, but Putin needs to stay strong, Russai is falling apart, with most outposts of the country figuring that "hey, we don't need to be ruled by Moscow anymore".

When it happens to children it is deplorable, but they were making a point, and at least now the world knows what they can do.

[crisis]

When it happens to children it is deplorable, but they were making a point, and at least now the world knows what they can do.
And therefore how they should be regarded.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

they should be regarded anyway.

HAMAS is regarded.
Jamar Islaamer is regarded.
Chechen Rebels need to be regarded.

Maybe if they had a catchier name?

the fact this thread is so dead (5 pages, add a Terrorist title or something relating to America and this thread will take off) and it's plain to see how much people care about these issues.

They need a wake up call like Ossetia to shake them into action.

[crisis]

they should be regarded anyway.

HAMAS is regarded.
Jamar Islaamer is regarded.
Chechen Rebels need to be regarded.

Maybe if they had a catchier name?

the fact this thread is so dead (5 pages, add a Terrorist title or something relating to America and this thread will take off) and it's plain to see how much people care about these issues.

They need a wake up call like Ossetia to shake them into action.
I mean how lowly they should be regarded. This is not a wake up call. This is humanity at its lowest. Anyhow they dont deserve a name and they dont deserve to be noticed or considered in any way. Ive hear they hav ehtree in custody. I hope we can rely on the Russians to ignore basic human rights as they dont apply to these cases.

[dashers]

i think everyone arguing about whoose special forces are the best are missing the point,which is(as of monday morning paper) 338 ppl are dead and a furhter 260 ppl are missing(so probabably dead).you can argue ad infinitum about what would happen if it happened in your country,or past military cock-ups,but it gets us nowhere.may the dead rest in peace,and i extend my sincerest symapthys to the familes of the dead.let us pray this never happens again

[IBrake4Rainbows]

I still think that unless they are recognised, whether as a seperste state or just recognised, this will still happen.

I'm not condoning it, but for god sakes, we don't want this happening again.

[crisis]

I still think that unless they are recognised, whether as a seperste state or just recognised, this will still happen.

I'm not condoning it, but for god sakes, we don't want this happening again.
Well if you acquiesce to this recent act you will send a clear message that this is exactly the length someone has to go to to be recognised.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

Well, maybe to them there seemed be no other solution.

I denounce this type of act, and in the end they will be judged accordingly, but change seems very unlikely in this world unless the system gets a jolt like this every now and then.

Perhaps something a little less drastic than this.