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View Full Version : Cheap, Mid engine, Rear Wheel Drive who's the best



mechanixfetch
10-09-2003, 04:11 PM
A couple of my friends have an '85 MR2 and a '74 914. Which is better? Also consider the Fiero even with its reliability issues. They are the only 3 cheap RWD mid engine cars I can think of.

Egg Nog
10-09-2003, 06:09 PM
Haha... obviously the 914 :)


But really, the only other relatively cheap option you have that was sold in North America is the Fiat X1/9... Good luck finding one though ;)

http://www.irata.com/x19/gifs/x19.jpg


EDIT: There is officially one for sale in the Vancouver area! Wow I'm impressed... it's a '79

http://www.buysell.com/results.asp?region=9&qu=fiat&search=class&id=2146&more=-1&less=-1&prox=NaN&lo=0&la=0&srhIssue=

Misho
10-09-2003, 09:37 PM
wasnt the Ohsim also mid-engine ?? If it was, then i think t could be teh best of this bunch.

Egg Nog
10-10-2003, 10:08 PM
Haha... I don't know what the Ohsim is, besides for your username spelled backwards ;)

Misho
10-11-2003, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by Egg Nog
Haha... I don't know what the Ohsim is, besides for your username spelled backwards ;)

Damn you smart Canadians !!

Yeah well, u ruined my joke !!! :)

sandwich
10-13-2003, 08:46 PM
hmmmm....

well you've got three very different cars. A germanic VW, a ricer, and some detroit iron.

The 914 was known for its handling, which is supposed to be superb. It's a light car, with good reliability. From what I know however, it's underpowered. With only a 1.6? a 1.8 4 and a 2.0 6 cyllinder versions, they are all a little slow comparitively. I may have left some versions out, forgive me porschelovers. They were all air-cooled flat engines....which are inherently balanced and just awesome. I think the car was really similar to a VW in build quality and parts. (which isn't a bad thing)

The mr2 had a 1.8 liter NA engine in 85, if i remember, and was relatively light and responsive. I know the least about this car, obviously, but it would be my last choice. It's just not special. If you move up to 1990, you get the option of a turbo engine with a little more weight and refinement. A very nice car indeed.

The fiero was a fairly decent car in the latter years, particularly the 87 GT, which had something like a 2.5 v-6 transverse mounted. They finally got the build spec cleared up and the suspension worked out. They seem to hold their value fairly well. This might be my first choice, as I like the looks and power is good :)

On another note, aftermarket parts are widely available for the fiero, and the 914 isn't too bad, just don't try to find spring caps, make your own :rolleyes: . Also, the 914 and fiero have v8 conversions, making them almost supercars for less than 10k.

For me, Fiero GT, Porsche 914/6, MR2 85. If you threw a 92 in there the standings might change.

For the ultimate cheap midengine car? Check out my project in the User rides section. GM350, fiero front suspension, porsche rear. Maybe the best of both worlds? Final project aim is 5k.

sandwich
10-13-2003, 08:47 PM
if i remember the x1/9 is hella ugly. Crazy ugly. Uglier than even the 85 MR2. :rolleyes:

SL500
10-14-2003, 08:43 AM
Originally posted by sandwich
if i remember the x1/9 is hella ugly. Crazy ugly. Uglier than even the 85 MR2. :rolleyes:
hehehe
85 MR2 is really crap,but cheap

Madman
10-14-2003, 09:22 AM
I used to have a 1980 Fiat X-1/9. Fantastic little car to drive but keeping the thing running was a full time job. I still miss it, though.

Another car to add to your list is the short-lived Lancia Scorpion (AKA Lancia Beta Montecarlo in Europe). FInding one is the problem, as they make the Fiat X-1/9 look almost common.

Madman of the People

Falcon500
10-14-2003, 05:21 PM
Some of those after market parts for the fieros are amazing you can lodge a GenIII chev in the back of them and ive even heard stories about the very fine caddilac northstar engines making their way intot them. here a pic of the stinger kit

Falcon500
10-14-2003, 05:23 PM
and the engine.
Im not a fan of those seurcide doors in the first pic.

crisis
10-14-2003, 05:31 PM
Originally posted by sandwich
if i remember the x1/9 is hella ugly. Crazy ugly. Uglier than even the 85 MR2. :rolleyes:
The x1/9 was a serious abortion. And styled by Bertone. What was he thinking? Just gos to show no ones perfect. I suppose Fiats style brief would not have been helpful. Are all Fiats unreliable or is it a myth. If they are it would explain why the brand is such a basket case these days.

megotmea7
10-14-2003, 08:39 PM
well the 3rd gen RX-7 is mid-engined but not in the general sense and when you can ick one up for ~15k US its a pretty ceap "mid-engine", rear wheel drive car:D

hermanzini
07-23-2007, 01:36 PM
The x1/9 was a serious abortion. And styled by Bertone. What was he thinking? Just gos to show no ones perfect. I suppose Fiats style brief would not have been helpful. Are all Fiats unreliable or is it a myth. If they are it would explain why the brand is such a basket case these days.

The x1/9 is not ugly!
The american version of the x1/9 is ugly!

Let me demonstrate:

Nice european style!
http://img360.imageshack.us/img360/8531/dasautoip0.jpghttp://img360.imageshack.us/img360/4433/sanremo02bt0.jpg
Its the same car, unbelieveable!
http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/2724/p11et4.jpghttp://img144.imageshack.us/img144/1325/kzk060pb4.jpg

Lets Gekiga In
07-23-2007, 10:53 PM
I'd prefer the MR2 or the Fiero.

Ingolstadt
07-24-2007, 06:01 AM
hahahah america regulated ugliness

P4g4nite
07-24-2007, 06:17 AM
Go a later model MR2 with the 3S-GTE.

Lets Gekiga In
07-24-2007, 01:47 PM
hahahah america regulated ugliness
I'd prefer a more reliable car rather than one you have a constant struggle with to keep running.

2ndclasscitizen
07-24-2007, 07:44 PM
And of course American bumpers make a big difference to reliability.

Lets Gekiga In
07-24-2007, 08:32 PM
I'll take an American car over a Fiat for reliability any day of the week.

P4g4nite
07-25-2007, 11:19 AM
And of course American bumpers make a big difference to reliability.
lol.






______________

Lets Gekiga In
07-25-2007, 11:52 AM
I'll take an American car over a Fiat for reliability any day of the week.

Yep.

_________

Ferrer
07-27-2007, 10:24 AM
Smart...

Lets Gekiga In
07-27-2007, 01:30 PM
Smart...

Mainly because the only Fiat I can get over here would be older than shit. :p

the_duke124
10-05-2008, 08:03 PM
well the 3rd gen RX-7 is mid-engined but not in the general sense and when you can ick one up for ~15k US its a pretty ceap "mid-engine", rear wheel drive car:D

Aren't all RX-7s Front engine?

f6fhellcat13
10-05-2008, 08:07 PM
engine behind the front axle IIRC
NIce rez.

nota
10-05-2008, 09:34 PM
From mid-engined obscurity comes the Autozam AZ-1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda_AZ-1) complete with gullwing doors. Also the (imo) less attractive Honda Beat

Suzuki Cappuchino also appears to be mid-engined, in literal sense, albeit with motor ahead of cabin

nota
10-05-2008, 09:37 PM
I'll take an American car over a Fiat for reliability any day of the week.
So you prefer a car that doesn't start, over one that catches fire?

f6fhellcat13
10-05-2008, 09:43 PM
So you prefer a car that doesn't start, over one that catches fire?
Both better than boring german and japanese. Fire is fun and you can expand your swearing vocabulary on a car that doesn't start. :rolleyes:

nota
10-05-2008, 10:24 PM
Both better than boring german and japanese. Fire is fun and you can expand your swearing vocabulary on a car that doesn't start. :rolleyes:
My late auntie had a Fiat 132 (bought 2nd-hand, at that) which I have to say was pretty damn reliable over her 9 year tenure.

So perhaps what I should have written was: the slow burn Fiat (rust) vs a fast burn Pontiac (flames)

Falcon500
10-05-2008, 11:09 PM
While on the subject the rear engined VW beetle was famous for catching fire used to have a short out in the battery and apprently once (urban myth) it got to a certian point and the heads that where made of magnesium would go up and you had to wait untill it stopped lol.

And nota John Bowe (ex touring car champion and bathurst winner for those not up to speed on ATCC) in an interview from street machine said he one had a moment of passion with a young lady interupted by his beetle catching fire.

Your not being entierly far most old rear engined cars caught fire one way or another (and suprisngly some still do) wether its from heat or another problem :)

f6fhellcat13
10-05-2008, 11:26 PM
For some reason your post reminds me of this:
http://bp0.blogger.com/_rlnu2OSkruk/Ro8rLuLtzEI/AAAAAAAAAI0/TreMU_UR6m4/s400/TeddyVWad.jpg
Only american-history nerds/ gearheads will get this, but I think it's funny so what the hell.
Moar info is here: The Source of all human knowledge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chappaquiddick_incident#Significance_and_legacy)

Falcon500
10-05-2008, 11:33 PM
Well theres another urban ledgand that says that volkwagen beetles where built to float by the odr of a certian adolf hitler and how well was proven by casting out Dr Porsche' son in it!

nota
10-06-2008, 12:17 AM
While on the subject the rear engined VW beetle was famous for catching fire used to have a short out in the battery and apprently once (urban myth) it got to a certian point and the heads that where made of magnesium would go up and you had to wait untill it stopped lol.

Speaking of Beetles I once owned a 1955 'Oval' and recall that VW thoughtfully positioned its fusebox directly atop the fuel tank, which virtually guarranteed a fire if the swing axles bit you and your Beetle turned turtle, if you know what I mean :)

Btw my Dakdak was the absolute basic 32hp model which didn't have a fuel gauge, or even the reserve tank - just a VW dipstick for luck

Falcon500
10-06-2008, 12:34 AM
Speaking of Beetles I once owned a 1955 'Oval' and recall that VW thoughtfully positioned its fusebox directly atop the fuel tank, which virtually guarranteed a fire if the swing axles bit you and your Beetle turned turtle, if you know what I mean :)

Btw my Dakdak was the absolute basic 32hp model which didn't have a fuel gauge, or even the reserve tank - just a VW dipstick for luck

Correct me if im wrong but your talking about rolling it? Because nearly every accident i have ever heard of involving one ended up with the beetle on its lid.

Dak Dak's now theres the answer for a current problem we need a few more of them around the place! then we can have dak dak chase scenes in movies like Ong Bak!:D

nota
10-06-2008, 01:12 AM
Correct me if im wrong but your talking about rolling it? Because nearly every accident i have ever heard of involving one ended up with the beetle on its lid.

Indeed, and I recall checking out all the old Veedubs - more than 30 of them - in this big wrecking yard (might have been Pharley's) and it seemed like fully 80% of them had fallen victim to rollover & fire!


But they were a great car. The first small car that could dependably handle the worst of Oz conditions and come out smiling. Sadly the've now all but evaporated from our roads, but you used to see (and hear) them absolutely everywhere

Remember 'that' unmistakable sound ..?




dakdakdkaaadakdak ... POP ... daackdackdaaaaack

clutch-monkey
10-06-2008, 01:18 AM
Indeed, and I recall checking out all the old Veedubs - more than 30 of them - in this big wrecking yard (might have been Pharley's) and it seemed like fully 80% of them had fallen victim to rollover & fire!


But they were a great car. The first small car that could dependably handle the worst of Oz conditions and come out smiling. Sadly the've now all but evaporated from our roads, but you used to see (and hear) them absolutely everywhere

Remember 'that' unmistakable sound ..?




dakdakdkaaadakdak ... POP ... daackdackdaaaaack

hahaha yes... around uni there's probably half a dozen, i still see them a fair bit but not exactly 'daily' or commonly these days

2ndclasscitizen
10-06-2008, 01:25 AM
Lolz, my Suby went dak dak dak, that's how ****ed it was. A mate has a Kombi wagon that he loves, running a 2-litre twin carb tuned for 98RON. Goes alright...

DAKDAKDAKDAKDAKDAKDAKDAKDAKDAKDAKDAKDAKDAKDAKDAKDA KDAKDAKDAKDAKDAKDAKDAKDAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAK!

Falcon500
10-06-2008, 01:30 AM
For some odd reason my father used to love driving his mothers beetle...the reason why I say strange is because he hates porsches and at the time all a porsche was then was a 6 cylender beetle that attempted to kill its driver lol.

This is also tempting me to find an old issue of street machine that had an article written by kevin bartlette about a guy who made a turbo set up and a custom air to water intercooler (which apprently created a trial of steam and needed to be filled up regularly apprently) who found out the dangers of a vee dubs handeling on the edge and how prone they where to roll over and ended up in an old ladys rose bush. :D

Great cars lots of fond memorys I hear from people, but I think im glad to say I have not and probably never will own one :p

Classy does it blow up soon after that point?

clutch-monkey
10-06-2008, 02:08 AM
Lolz, my Suby went dak dak dak, that's how ****ed it was. A mate has a Kombi wagon that he loves, running a 2-litre twin carb tuned for 98RON. Goes alright...

DAKDAKDAKDAKDAKDAKDAKDAKDAKDAKDAKDAKDAKDAKDAKDAKDA KDAKDAKDAKDAKDAKDAKDAKDAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAK!

does it look like this engine? reason i ask is the guy said it was 1.92 or 2L or something, twin carb as you can see, wondering if it was same engine (sounded pretty damn good)

2ndclasscitizen
10-06-2008, 03:18 AM
No idea, have never seen the engine.

ForcedInd26
10-12-2009, 07:55 AM
well the 3rd gen RX-7 is mid-engined but not in the general sense and when you can ick one up for ~15k US its a pretty ceap "mid-engine", rear wheel drive car:D

Im 99% sure that the 3rd gen rx-7 (fd) weren't mid engined.

i dont know if that was a joke because the only mid engined mazdas i know were the carol 360 and the 787b racecar

Ferrer
10-12-2009, 08:02 AM
Im 99% sure that the 3rd gen rx-7 (fd) weren't mid engined.

i dont know if that was a joke because the only mid engined mazdas i know were the carol 360 and the 787b racecar
He probably meant mid engined as in the engine behind the front axle.

LeonOfTheDead
10-12-2009, 08:26 AM
That's because you should consider the position of the gearbox as well.
Hint: a Murcielago isn't a mid engined car.

uhm, really? and so what?

ForcedInd26
10-12-2009, 12:35 PM
well if thats the case there are a lot of cars that would be considered a mid engined car. I may be new to this forum but i know what you're saying.

then why wouldn't the 1st and 2nd generation rx's be considered the fc and fd both shared a 13b powerplant.

what about toyota forward control vans? lol

ForcedInd26
10-12-2009, 12:41 PM
That's because you should consider the position of the gearbox as well.
Hint: a Murcielago isn't a mid engined car.

uhm, really? and so what?

that would be considered what then, rear engined?

LeonOfTheDead
10-12-2009, 12:46 PM
that would be considered what then, rear engined?

Precisely.

ForcedInd26
10-12-2009, 12:55 PM
then whats your exact definition of a mid engined car?

LeonOfTheDead
10-12-2009, 01:05 PM
then whats your exact definition of a mid engined car?

It isn't "mine", and I don't even think there is a technical definition.
Like, what's a "supercar"?

Ferrer
10-12-2009, 02:54 PM
It isn't "mine", and I don't even think there is a technical definition.
Like, what's a "supercar"?
Something that's italian and breaks down a lot.

kingofthering
10-12-2009, 02:58 PM
Something that's italian and breaks down a lot.

They also like to explode into fireballs and are usually piloted by jerks. :D

Matra et Alpine
10-12-2009, 03:08 PM
mid-engine - the engine is located between the front and rear axle lines
rear engine - the engins is located with most behind the rear axle line
front engine - the engine is located with some over the front axle line

Pretty much sums it up.

clutch-monkey
10-12-2009, 03:09 PM
mid-engine - the engine is located between the front and rear axle lines
rear engine - the engins is located with most behind the rear axle line
front engine - the engine is located with some over the front axle line

Pretty much sums it up.

so the maclaren SLR is a mid-front? as in it's mid engined, but the engine is still forward of the driver.

Matra et Alpine
10-12-2009, 03:14 PM
^^^ aha the first question an analytical will raise :)

Yes, to "appease" those who must have a precise definition then their
is mid-front and mid-rear to differntiate the "mid" :)

LeonOfTheDead
10-12-2009, 03:23 PM
I don't know why, but the gearbox still seems to make a difference in some technical discussions. I remember one of my teachers calling an engine "mid mounted" because it was ahead of the gearbox, but I didn't asked of an elaboration as he also asked how to spell "Impreza" when asked about the differential used by such car.

whatever, I don't need also these definitions, I've already plenty of them to live with.

clutch-monkey
10-12-2009, 03:24 PM
haha so we have two categories of mid engined then :D

Matra et Alpine
10-12-2009, 03:51 PM
All your fault for creating them :)

Leon's teacher was even more anal in trying to come up with terminology that included where the gearbox was.

Attempts to give simple categories to that level don't work as some have tail diffs, through diffs and below diffs ( eg the original Mini )

Keeping it "simple" most know what front mid rear means. It's not worth getting too hung up on any more detail. In the odd occasions it's needed then extra words can be used eg mid-front/mid-rear - I'll give you that one ... but trying to classify ENGINE placement to include/not include gearbox, diff and trasnfer box is doomed.

LeonOfTheDead
10-13-2009, 05:21 AM
I propose to add the fuel tank as well, if full that is.

jk.

Ferrer
10-13-2009, 05:25 AM
I propose to add the fuel tank as well, if full that is.

jk.
What if you've got stuff in the boot...?

LeonOfTheDead
10-13-2009, 05:29 AM
What if you've got stuff in the boot...?

That's funny, because a long time ago, when the Golf V came out a friend (no wait, a dude at the park) was showing off his new toy (1.9 tdi, 105 bhp) with other jerks, and at a certain point he opens the trunk and say "see this, these are 130 bhp".......nuclear silence over the park for a week or so.

This clearly change the balance of the car, don't you think?

ForcedInd26
10-13-2009, 01:14 PM
so back to the basic question would any of you consider an fd rx7 a mid engined car?

ForcedInd26
10-13-2009, 01:17 PM
i thought

mid engined- the engine behind the driver, and not on a transaxle
rear engined- sit on the rear transaxle
front engined- fixed mostly over the front axle

aNOBLEman
10-13-2009, 01:43 PM
mid-engine - the engine is located between the front and rear axle lines
rear engine - the engins is located with most behind the rear axle line
front engine - the engine is located with some over the front axle line

Pretty much sums it up.

This is the best definition of engine placements, ForcedInd26. If needed mid-rear and mid-front would be acceptable, but I would agree with Matra in that keeping it simple is best in most cases.

clutch-monkey
10-13-2009, 03:00 PM
^ yeah not forgetting referring to it as mid-rear might get people confused with mid engined, rear wheel drive terminology

TheScrutineer
10-13-2009, 03:56 PM
Offtopic, but there is a rumour that the mid engined Porsche Cayman is purposely sold with a lesser powered engine than 911s because it would outperform Porche's flagship model.

clutch-monkey
10-13-2009, 04:03 PM
i never understood that. the GT2 laps the same time as the mid engined carrera GT, what would they expect to do with a cayman?
outperform base 911's i could understand, but flagship model? lol.

LeonOfTheDead
10-13-2009, 04:09 PM
Offtopic, but there is a rumour that the mid engined Porsche Cayman is purposely sold with a lesser powered engine than 911s because it would outperform Porche's flagship model.

Marketing post whoring I say.

Obviously a well tuned (not talking about the after market) Cayman with a powerful engine could outperform many 911 versions.
In the same way a well tuned 911, the GT2 is as fast as the carbon fiber Carrera GT (which is also 5 year older).

As with kids wondering about R34s with NOS stuff, yes, they will outrun an Enzo. And guess what? if you put that stuff in the Enzo it will outrun them once again (while exploding in the distance).

TheScrutineer
10-13-2009, 04:11 PM
But aren't rear engined Porsches ultimately flawed? I know that rear engined cars have great traction. I've always thought that the only reason it works is because of Porsche engineering genius. And changing the engine layout for a future 911, it just would not be a 911 would it.

Ferrer
10-13-2009, 04:18 PM
But aren't rear engined Porsches ultimately flawed? I know that rear engined cars have great traction. I've always thought that the only reason it works is because of Porsche engineering genius. And changing the engine layout for a future 911, it just would not be a 911 would it.
You should drive an italian car. Cars don't have flaws, they have character.

TheScrutineer
10-14-2009, 03:27 AM
I considered buying an old Alfa but it is a risk I'm not going to take!

Ferrer
10-14-2009, 03:36 AM
I considered buying an old Alfa but it is a risk I'm not going to take!
You should. Maybe not now, but in the future buy one.

pimento
10-14-2009, 03:45 AM
Offtopic, but there is a rumour that the mid engined Porsche Cayman is purposely sold with a lesser powered engine than 911s because it would outperform Porche's flagship model.


Marketing post whoring I say.

Obviously a well tuned (not talking about the after market) Cayman with a powerful engine could outperform many 911 versions.
In the same way a well tuned 911, the GT2 is as fast as the carbon fiber Carrera GT (which is also 5 year older).

They say that because the 3.4 that the 996 Carrera in 1997 is apparently less powerful than the 3.4 that the Cayman S has. No word on torque, power delivery or emmisions regs as far as I know though. Also, something along the lines of the Cayman S doesn't have an LSD because it'd be faster than a 911 if it did. Tinfoil hats everyone, it's conspiracy theory time!

TheScrutineer
10-14-2009, 08:49 AM
Think about it. On paper a mid engined car has more advantages than a rear engined one. But the 911 is a legend that Porsche does not want to destroy.

LeonOfTheDead
10-14-2009, 08:58 AM
Think about it. On paper a mid engined car has more advantages than a rear engined one. But the 911 is a legend that Porsche does not want to destroy.

ok then an F430 could be faster than the 599 GTB...oh wait, it is!
What can't happen is that a similarly priced car outruns the slightly pricer one.
No one at Ferrari will tell you that the MC12 is faster and more powerful than the Enzo, even if they know it's so (damn, they designed it so). Let alone admitting the GranTurismo Trofeo is faster than the F430 Challenge with at least another year or two for the latter before of being updated with the 458.

The Cayman is on paper an excellent car and quite a disappointment on the street. For as good as it can be, it always misses something, being more power, or more personality.
So if the plan was not to harm the 911, they ended up wasting the opportunity of building one of the best decently priced sportscar.
Even the Boxter used to be more popular before of the Cayman.

Aston Martin could have created just a big mess with all those similarly looking and performing cars from the V8 and DB9 up to the DBS and V12, but they managed to differentiate them with first of all different prices, and also balancing the number of cars available with those actually requested, generating more and more interest for the next reveal.
At the end of the day AM is selling relatively plenty of cars.
Porsche raised a lot of attention with the Cayman even before it was unveiled, but right after that, it just felt in the drawer of forgotten things.

All the 911 updates, the Cayenne and Panamera became the only target of the brand.
Poor marketing from this point of view I'd say.

LeonOfTheDead
10-21-2009, 10:30 AM
Directly from the Lexus LFA press release.

Front midship engine.

clutch-monkey
10-21-2009, 11:49 PM
haha well that's that sorted.