Ultimate Hot Hatch

[phathash]

Any suggestions are welcome. personally my vote would go to the Lancia Delta Integrale, so beautiful after all these years and godfather to the impreza/evo legacy

[cuntukimushroom]

does the RX-8 count if it does'nt ill have the Golf GTI MkII

[:Exige:]

I agree with the Delta Intergrale .. wouldnt quite name it godfather to the Scooby v Evo wars though. Ive also had a sweet spot for the Seat Leon Cupra R.

[whiteballz]

audi S3?...

nah... definately the clio v6 sport.

[phathash]

actually could the escort cosworth be classed as a hot hatch? thats also a very good car

[5_door owner]

metro 6r4 or the pug 205 t16

but if were talkin realistic, its gotta be the old skool golf mk1 gti

or the 5gtt

[Mustang]

metro 6r4 or the pug 205 t16

but if were talkin realistic, its gotta be the old skool golf mk1 gti

or the 5gtt


hey welcome to the forums

you have some nice choices there :)

[jcp123]

We have a similar thread goin in another section somewhere...

I vote for a V8 Datsun Z-car.

[car_fiend]

imo ,the mitsu 3000 gt vr4 is a very hot hatch.

[NZO_4RE]

well there are a few to choose from although my vote has to go to the Alfa 147 GTA, Clio V6 and the Civic Type R.
they all offer bang for your buck and are very very cool.

[cmcpokey]

i just bought a mini cooper s, so i may be a bit biased

[jcp123]

The civic type R (im guessing that its the same thing as the Si here in the States) looks really awkward...torqueless too.

[jcp123]

well there are a few to choose from although my vote has to go to the Alfa 147 GTA, Clio V6 and the Civic Type R.
they all offer bang for your buck and are very very cool.


BTW, this might seem like it's straight out of left field, but are you named Arianna? There was someone I knew back in high school named Ari (sometimes shortened to RE) who always lusted after Ferraris and especially the Enzo...your name NZO_4RE made me think of her.

[taz_rocks_miami]

I vote for a V8 Datsun Z-car.

Good one! :) But I'm sure I'd call the Datsun Z a hatch though :confused:

[henk4]

Citroen AX Gti, cardboard body, weighs next to nothing (less than 700 kg) and has 110 BHP at the wheels.

[jcp123]

Good one! :) But I'm sure I'd call the Datsun Z a hatch though :confused:

It IS a hatchback, right? Our 280ZX (yeah, yeah, I know...) is...

[taz_rocks_miami]

Citroen AX Gti, cardboard body, weighs next to nothing (less than 700 kg) and has 110 BHP at the wheels.

Sounds good henk, except for the cardboard body:( Guess it's not a car for smokers ;)

[henk4]

Sounds good henk, except for the cardboard body:( Guess it's not a car for smokers ;)

it had an ashtray :)

[NZO_4RE]

BTW, this might seem like it's straight out of left field, but are you named Arianna? There was someone I knew back in high school named Ari (sometimes shortened to RE) who always lusted after Ferraris and especially the Enzo...your name NZO_4RE made me think of her.

no sorry mate my names not Arianna. i get what you are saying, but the '4RE' is just shorthand for Ferrari if you know what i mean. sorry to confuse.

[jcp123]

no prob. it was a long shot anyway. but i had to ask, i had a raging crush on her.

[Ferrari Tifosi]

The civic type R (im guessing that its the same thing as the Si here in the States) looks really awkward...torqueless too.

There are pretty significant differences between the Si and the Type R actually. The Type R has about 35 more hp, and more torque, and overall is a far better car. Looks about the same with small subtles differences. This is my favorite hatchback, along with the Volkswagen R32 and the Renault Turbo 5.

[Coventrysucks]

It IS a hatchback, right? Our 280ZX (yeah, yeah, I know...) is...

It has a hatch-back.

It is more of a coupe though. The Mitsubishi 3000GT isn't a hot hatch either.
"Hot hatch" refers to small family hatchbacks, mostly from Europe and Japan, with powerful engines.

I am still of the opinion that the best current hot hatch is the Renault Clio 182 Cup.

[fpv_gtho]

If you could still call it a hatch, i wouldnt go past a Sierra Cosworth RS500 :p

But seriously, the Intergrale probably

[RS6]

Sunbeam Lotus, Renault Clio Williams and the Delta Integrale of course.

[VtecMini]

Citroen AX Gti, cardboard body, weighs next to nothing (less than 700 kg) and has 110 BHP at the wheels.

Heh heh. My friend bought a mid mount spoiler from one of those from a scrapyard for his Mini Turbo. Looks absolutely hilarious. In a good way, mind. :)

My favourite hot hatch? I've always (well, since it came out anyway) had a thing for the Seat Leon Cupra R, more for its looks than anything. I'd love to give one a try. Or maybe not actually, they do say you should never meet your heroes. Previous to the Leon, my fave would be the Mk I Golf GTi, I still cant put my finger on it, it's not purely down to the whole originality thing, but there's something about it that's just way too cool. The original R5 Turbo and the Clio V6 with the midmounted engines are both favourites of mine, but It's obviously not fair to called a car with a midmounted engine a hot hatch. It's blatently just a proper sports car in a girls car's clothing. :p

[Matra et Alpine]

The original R5 Turbo and the Clio V6 with the midmounted engines are both favourites of mine, but It's obviously not fair to called a car with a midmounted engine a hot hatch.
I've always reckoned that the likes of the R5 Turbo and Turbo 2, the CLio V6, the Metro 6R4, Integrale S4, Lanci 037, 205T16 and RS200 were the only true hot hatches. If you put ANYTHING in therough that rear hatch it had to sit on the engien and it would get hot :) :groan: :)

[jcp123]

It has a hatch-back.

It is more of a coupe though. The Mitsubishi 3000GT isn't a hot hatch either.
"Hot hatch" refers to small family hatchbacks, mostly from Europe and Japan, with powerful engines.

I am still of the opinion that the best current hot hatch is the Renault Clio 182 Cup.

Alright, going by that definition...I'll go back to one of my old standbys: a Pinto with a 2.3 Turbo

[SPN:DOC]

It IS a hatchback, right? Our 280ZX (yeah, yeah, I know...) is...

What we call theses cars in Aus is Sport Liftbacks… They are not hatchback because they have a little rear end and the boot glass lifts with it.. ;)

[taz_rocks_miami]

Alright, going by that definition...I'll go back to one of my old standbys: a Pinto with a 2.3 Turbo

A Ford Pinto??? No disrespect dude but...yuck :(

[taz_rocks_miami]

What we call theses cars in Aus is Sport Liftbacks… They are not hatchback because they have a little rear end and the boot glass lifts with it.. ;)

I agree with SpinDoc. I had a 72 260Z and a 82 280ZX Turbo (only automatic I've ever owned) in college and they are a cut above hot hatches, they are more in the sports car category.

[jcp123]

A Ford Pinto??? No disrespect dude but...yuck :(

That's the point. Imagine the look on someone's face when you beat em with a Pinto.

That and...there aren't many other classic hatchbacks. Especially not one where the 2.3 Turbo is a direct bolt in for the 2.3 N/A...

[dave_fonz_164]

My vote goes to the Lancia Delta HF


also, 147 GTA and Clio v6 are honourable mentions

[Egg Nog]

That's the point. Imagine the look on someone's face when you beat em with a Pinto.

That and...there aren't many other classic hatchbacks. Especially not one where the 2.3 Turbo is a direct bolt in for the 2.3 N/A...

Are you talking about the Pangra? I thought I was the only one who'd heard of that conversion! :)

[jcp123]

Not sure what you mean...I've seen a few converted Pintos. They get the motors out of T-bird Turbo Coupes and Merkurs, and once in a while they'll score one out of a wrecked SVO Mustang or something. But because the 2.3 block is the same, it essentially is a bolt-in swap. It'd be pretty dang fun, I think.

[Egg Nog]

Not sure what you mean...I've seen a few converted Pintos. They get the motors out of T-bird Turbo Coupes and Merkurs, and once in a while they'll score one out of a wrecked SVO Mustang or something. But because the 2.3 block is the same, it essentially is a bolt-in swap. It'd be pretty dang fun, I think.

Okay nevermind :)

Huntington was a performance company that made (I believe) the first turbocharger conversions that you could buy for the Pinto. They started making them in the early '70s, and sold the fully converted cars (including extended bodywork) as the "Pangra". I originally read about it in a Porsche 914 Road&Track article collection that I have, where they did a three-way comparison - "The Porsche, The Pinto, and the Pangra". It seemed like a pretty cool car, with great performance to boot!

There are still a handful of grassroots enthusiasts who have kept Pangras in surprisingly good condition. If you look around a little, I'm sure you'd be able to find a few.

By the way, Bubb Rubb makes me laugh whenever I see him ;)

[Deutscher Adler]

AUDI S3 or VOLKSWAGEN R32 or a 3.1 fully built VR6 VOLKSWAGEN CORRADO SLC or maybe a blown VR6 MK2 VW GTI or a 1.8T VW Rabbit that runs 11s.

YOU PICK!

[Deutscher Adler]

German hatchs started it all........

Remember the VW Rabbit GTI???

Checky :

[Deutscher Adler]

Anyone ever See Dahlback personally? This car rocks.

[Lagonda]

The Clio RS.

[Doza]

The civic type R (im guessing that its the same thing as the Si here in the States) looks really awkward...torqueless too.
The Si is a wussified emissions friendly version of it, with 160hp as opposed the the R's 200hp. The torque on either is a little weak, but it's impressive from a NA 2 point engine. The 2.1 my Prelude has makes only 140hp/133ft-lbs, but, it is a 91.

[jcp123]

Oh, ok then. Cool.

[SPN:DOC]

Anyone ever See Dahlback personally? This car rocks.

Hahaha ok 950hp Four Motion… dam right it rocks… but that’s its old paint job.. it got a new on now…

[Revo]

IMHO ultimate hot hatch has to be Lancia Delta S4 Stradale
(that hatch is ulimate or what :cool: )

Now more down to earth... My vote goes to 1995 Lancia Delta Integrale HF (damn, it's those italians again :confused: ) Superb looks for machine that was born in 1979.

Cheers!

[Delmaster]

Remember the VW Rabbit GTI???




never heart of a VW Rabbit...... what is it?
is it it's real name?

[henk4]

never heart of a VW Rabbit...... what is it?
is it it's real name?

That was the name for the Golf, right from its introduction in the USA. It was also produced there.

[Deutscher Adler]

never heart of a VW Rabbit...... what is it?
is it it's real name?




In Europe it was called a Golf....in America for some weird reason the called it a Rabbit.

Ask anyone in Europe what a GOLF I is and they will know whats up. Say a rabbit and they will just look at you funny. :)

[henk4]

Ask anyone in Europe what a GOLF I is and they will know whats up. Say a rabbit and they will just look at you funny. :)

I am from Europe :)

[Matra et Alpine]

I am from Europe :)
he said looK AT you funny.

You just look funny :)

[henk4]

he said looK AT you funny.

You just look funny :)

what a sophisticated response :)

[Deutscher Adler]

I am from Europe :)



Me too. So you know what's up. ;)

[Matra et Alpine]

what a sophisticated response :)
one of my better ones today :eek:

[audivwmeister]

vw lupo gti ;)

[Deutscher Adler]

vw lupo gti ;)


That car is actually kinda cool. I would drive one in the US if they had them here.

[Deutscher Adler]

I thought about it a while and think the MK2 VW golf GTI is the ultimate hot hatch. THink about it, no other car is as well known and has as many tuning fans that are obsessed with this particular car. Throughout Europe, Russia, Africa, North and South America. THe MK2 or A2 Golf Gti is loved, respected, and tuned the h*ll out of.


Some fotos for you....

Checky:

[Deutscher Adler]

Here are some more fotos I would like to share...

[Deutscher Adler]

In a way we all have to admit that Volkswagen did start the whole hatch idea. With the rabbit's debut after the Beetle was discontinued. Right?

[PerfAdv]

True. Got any good pics of the original Golf (Rabbit)?

[Matra et Alpine]

In a way we all have to admit that Volkswagen did start the whole hatch idea. With the rabbit's debut after the Beetle was discontinued. Right?
MGB GT ? Why is it not the first hatch ?
Seated 4 - almost.

[Deutscher Adler]

MGB GT ? Why is it not the first hatch ?
Seated 4 - almost.



Because it is not the ultimate hatch. If it were it would have a crazy amount of people around the world who are die hard fans. The fans of the VW GTI versions/generations 1 thru 5 are extremely high on all the continents of the world today. There are a large amount of modified cars or customized cars today and just look at the VW Vortex page. There you will see people from all over talking about how great the car is and dealing on parts and discussing different aspects of the vehicle. Ask anyone on the street about the MGB GT and I guarantee you the large majority will not know what it is. If it were an ultimate hatch it would be a commonly know vehicle and thus be respected. The fact that so many people know what a GTI is and the majority of people like them or possibly have on or have had one is a testiment to the car. You know what I mean? This is my thought process. I am not arguing just debating with you. ;)


Here are some A1 or Mk1 golf fotos....enjoy: :)


Checky:

[Deutscher Adler]

what do you think of the pics? Rabbits done up euro style!
:cool:

[PerfAdv]

Lovely. I think the original was a G. Giugiaro design. IMO, the cleanest one yet. Defining what hatchbacks were to be, two-box front drivers.

[Deutscher Adler]

Lovely. I think the original was a G. Giugiaro design. IMO, the cleanest one yet. Defining what hatchbacks were to be, two-box front drivers.



First generation GTis were awesome. They defined the whole thing one a performance econ car hatchback. They were great on gas, good priced and very tuneable. FYI: they still are.

They are some of the most popular cars for SCCA racing. The 1st and 2nd Generation GTIs are the most commonly raced cars in SCCA. Look in any Eurotuner magazine or European car mag and you will find something or some part for a GTI, be it new or old. There have been more than 25 years of GTIs. VW pioneered it and the rest came from there. VW Rabbit comes out then comes Honda Civic, Dodge omni, etc.

It is just a cult car! :)



checky:

[PerfAdv]

Time wise the Golf has been there longer but maybe the torch has been handed over to the Civic. The import tuner crowd has embraced the Civic and they are the future of tuning. Granted people will always modify the Golf but IMO, only a select few. As far as SCCA events, still most of any car. Wow, that is news to me. Impressive.

[Matra et Alpine]

Because it is not the ultimate hatch. .....
I thought it was SOO obvious it was meant as humour I didnt' put the smiley on - naughty me :)

But it WAS in response to you claiming Golf was first ( not hottest ) !!
Ask anyone on the street about the MGB GT and I guarantee you the large majority will not know what it is.


In our town EVERYONE knows the MGB GT, so if you want I'll ask anyone in the street :)
Mainly because our rally car stands out and everyone asks and learns about it !!!!!

BUT, GTi was original and best hot hatch - family car, carry the kids and shopping in cofmort and fast when asked to. Shame the Mk2-5 are a VERY poor copy. Getting lardy arsed along the way :(

[Deutscher Adler]

Shame the Mk2-5 are a VERY poor copy. Getting lardy arsed along the way :(



Well they are different but the MK5 is gonna be a cool car when it gets to the US. It is out in Europe and I think it is a decent car. It is closer to the original than say the Mk3 or mk4.

Here are some more fotos from Europe and america taken in 03 and 04...

[Quiggs]

The Mk5 GTI has dropped some 400 lbs over the Mk4. And in today's creature comfort-oriented world, any car under 3000 lbs can be considered light.

[Matra et Alpine]

Well they are different but the MK5 is gonna be a cool car when it gets to the US.
Yeah, but it's still lardy-arsed ( over weight ) compared to the original and BEST ...
http://members.lycos.co.uk/firewheels/hpbimg/golfgraph.jpg
The more power DOES manage to make each successive one get to a higher speed, but not as good through corners :(
The Mk5 is as high as 1319kg according to the VW Germany site :(
( Quiggs where did you see a weight ? I coudlnt' find anything on the UK sites )
So I wouldn't expect it to be much like the original Mk1.
Will sell well though, the extra power makes up for some of that weight in the straight line and the figures, so it will be attractive.

[RS6]

Everyone knows that the new golf can't even compare to the 'ultimate hot hatchness' of the original and frankly beautiful MK1 Golf GTi.

[Quiggs]

Quiggs where did you see a weight ? I coudlnt' find anything on the UK sites )

http://autoweek.com/article.cms?articleId=100993

The Vortex has a write-up on the car, but I can't find which article had the weight listed. The Vortex number was a little lower if I recall.

Also, I think I might have been thinking of the R32 as 3300 lbs; not a regular Mk4.

Edit: VW's site lists the Mk4 1.8T at 2934 and the VR6 at 3036. The Haldex AWD in the R32 puts it up to ~3300. These are the NA spec models. According to AutoWeek, the Mk5 GTI will be 2928. But I'm not sure if this is the US market version or the European model.

[Matra et Alpine]

According to AutoWeek, the Mk5 GTI will be 2928. But I'm not sure if this is the US market version or the European model.
That's 1330kg !!
So nearly 65% heavier than the original :(

EDIT: To help, here are the weights in pounds .....
810 kg = 1786 lbs
929 kg = 2048 lbs
1110 kg = 2447 lbs
1200 kg = 2645 lbs

[Quiggs]

It's unfortunate, but a good portion of that weight has come from additional safety features. ABS, ESP, side impact beams and 6 airbags.

[PerfAdv]

Weight kills modern cars. At 3K pounds it's hardly a lightweight. The small car has changed in the Stated to a mid-size. The spot the mk1 golf filled is now occupied by the Polo. And unfortunately we don't get the Polo in the States. :(

[Matra et Alpine]

It's unfortunate, but a good portion of that weight has come from additional safety features. ABS, ESP, side impact beams and 6 airbags.
True,

:)
BUT
:)
it might also be down to this STANDARD specificatiosn list ........
2Zone electronic climate control
3 rear head restraints
3 rear three-point seat belts
ABS (Anti-lock Braking System) with HBA (Hydraulic Brake Assist)
Alarm with interior protection
Alloy wheels, four 7.5 J x17 “Monza” with 225/55 R17 tyres
Aluminium foot pedals and foot rest
Aluminium gear knob
Automatic coming/leaving home lighting function
Blue heat insulated tinted glass
Body-coloured bump strips and door handles
Body-coloured bumpers and bump strips, front and rear
Body-coloured door mirrors with integrated indicators
Carpet Mats
Coat hooks, rear x 2
Cup holders, front x 2, rear x 1 (for up to 1.0 litre bottle)
Curtain airbag system, for front and rear passengers
Disc brakes, front and rear (front ventilated with red brake calipers)
Driver's and front passenger's active head restraints
Driver's and front passenger's airbags with passenger deactivation switch
Dusk sensor, automatic driving lights
Dust and pollen filter
Easy entry sliding seats (for access to rear seats - 3 door only)
Electric windows, front
Electric windows, rear (five door only)
Electrically heated and adjustable door mirrors
Electronic engine immobiliser
ESP (Electronic Stabilisation Programme) including EDL (Electronic Differential Lock)
Exterior temperature gauge
Front fog lights
Front footwell illumination
Front seat side impact airbags
Front three-point seat belts with height adjustment
Glovebox, illuminated and lockable
Grab handles, front x2, rear x2 with intergarted coat hooks
GTI instrument cluster, with GTI logo
GTI leather rimmed steering wheel, gaiter and handbrake grip
GTI logo on front and rear
GTI sports seats, height adjustable with lumbar support
GTI styling packs including unique front grille, front and rear bumper
Halogen headlights with tinted headlamp housing
Height and reach adjustable steering wheel
Instrument lighting, blue adjustable panel illumination
Interior light delay
Isofix child seat preparation (for 2 rear child seats)
Load-through provision
Luggage compartment cover
Luggage compartment light
Multifunction computer (Midline)
Power-assisted steering, speed-sensitive
Radio/CD player with 10 speakers, front x 6, rear x 4
Rain sensor and automatic dimming interior rear-view mirror
Reading lights, chrome surrounds, independent front and rear
Rear screen wash/wipe with intermittent wipe
Rear spoiler
Reflectors in the front doors
Remote central locking with 2 remote folding keys
Remote interior fuel flap opener
Scuff plates
Speedo and rev counter, eletronic odometer, trip, service interval display and fuel gauge
Split folding rear seats
Sports suspension, lowered by approx 15mm
Steel space saver spare wheel
Storage area, centre
Storage compartment in front doors (for 1.0 litre bottles)
Storage compartment in rear doors
Storage compartment in roof console
Storage pack (luggage net under parcel shelf)
Twin exhaust tail pipes (2x 70mm)
Two-tone horn
Upholstery “Interlagos” cloth
Vanity mirrors
Warning buzzer for lights if left on
Windscreen wiper with intermittent wipe and 4 position delay
:)

[Deutscher Adler]

Dang that thing is weighed down a lot.

[Deutscher Adler]

The Golf is one of the most driven cars in Japan !!! Did you know this. My friend just came back from Japan this week and he told me about how many VW Golfs were crusing around.

[Jonny Flash]

does the RX-8 count if it does'nt ill have the Golf GTI MkII

of course the rx-8 doesnt count - its a coupe not a hatchback.

[apple HEAD]

im new here. first post. i cant believe that nobody has mentioned either the 205/106/AX/SAXO of PSA. thats Peugeot and Citroen to me and you. they all shared the same winning chassis of front macpherson struts and rear torsion beam. they also shared the same TU series of engine which produced from 100 bhp in 1300 form up to 240 bhp in 1600 full rallye spec.

i currently have a stripped out sub 1-litre AX that weighs close to 600 kg and goes well for having just 50 bhp at the fly. the most powerfull AXwas the 1400 GTI which came with 105 BHP at the fly not 110 at the wheels like someone else mentioned earlier.

p.s. Great site

[Joao Gois]

im new here. first post. i cant believe that nobody has mentioned either the 205/106/AX/SAXO of PSA. thats Peugeot and Citroen to me and you. they all shared the same winning chassis of front macpherson struts and rear torsion beam. they also shared the same TU series of engine which produced from 100 bhp in 1300 form up to 240 bhp in 1600 full rallye spec.

i currently have a stripped out sub 1-litre AX that weighs close to 600 kg and goes well for having just 50 bhp at the fly. the most powerfull AXwas the 1400 GTI which came with 105 BHP at the fly not 110 at the wheels like someone else mentioned earlier.

p.s. Great site

Welcome to the forums.

Now, about Saxo/AX/106/205, althou agile, it was a quite horrible chassis, specialy safety-wise, it was just horrid! But although the Saxo Cup was quite a lively car (120hp, 600kg), you can't call that "ultimate".

Since this thread has apparently turned to "the Golf/Rabbit hommage thread" and that's going a bit (lot?) off-toppic, these would be my choices for the ultimate hot hatches:
- Renault Clio V6
- Renault 5 Turbo2
- Ford Escort RS Cosworth
- Lancia Delta S4 Abarth Stradale
- Lancia Delta HF Integrale 16v
- Volkswagen Golf GTI W12-650

[AKPeugeot]

Does the original Saab 900 Turbo SPG count? If it does that'd be my vote.

[apple HEAD]

In the handling department Peugeot created a torsion bar rear axle that was so simple, that it is nearly surprising many Peugeot hot hatch owners and rally drivers that tried a Peugeot 205, 309, 106 or similar, agreed that it was genius in handling, really nippy and fun without becoming dangerous.

The 205 GTI had a superb handling, it was ultra reliable and easy to maintain, motorsport parts were cheap, of good quality and plenty of them available, and forming the original base of the World's most successful one-makes championship to date,

This is underlined if you compare the 205 to the successes of its main opposition. If we are looking at FWD non-turbo cars of that era, there are only 3 that ever managed podium finishes at WRC level: The Volkswagen Golf GTI 16v, the Opel Kadett (Astra) GSI 16v and the Peugeot 205 GTI 1.9. Of these the Peugeot was the least powerful car by far. The Golf managed to win the Bandama Rallye 1987 with Kenneth Eriksson. However here it must be said that was the event where the Toyota team management was involved in a fatal plain crash, and all other works drivers bar Nissan's Shekhar Mehta stopped competing to mark their respect. Volkswagen's only ever win certainly was not a graceful one. The Kadett won in NZ 1988 with Sepp Haider. This again was a works entry on an inexplicably low key Rally NZ, the top10 being made up with cars as Toyota Starlet, Daihatsu Charade and Suzuki Swift. The 205's biggest moment of glory was a very different story. Jean-Pierre Ballet finished 3rd overall in Monte Carlo 1988 with a 205 GTI 1.9. But Ballet was not a big name driver, having rarely made it into the top10 with group B Porsches beforehand. His entry had in difference to the Golf & Kadett highlights no works support whatsoever. And still Ballet left people as Timo Salonen in a works Mazda 323 4WD Turbo, Alain Oreille in an R11 Turbo and a number of strong Audi Coupé Quattros behind. Clearly the 205 GTI didn't have to hide behind any other non-turbo FWD cars.

[apple HEAD]

Welcome to the forums.

Now, about Saxo/AX/106/205, althou agile, it was a quite horrible chassis, specialy safety-wise, it was just horrid! But although the Saxo Cup was quite a lively car (120hp, 600kg), you can't call that "ultimate".

Since this thread has apparently turned to "the Golf/Rabbit hommage thread" and that's going a bit (lot?) off-toppic, these would be my choices for the ultimate hot hatches:
- Renault Clio V6
- Renault 5 Turbo2
- Ford Escort RS Cosworth
- Lancia Delta S4 Abarth Stradale
- Lancia Delta HF Integrale 16v
- Volkswagen Golf GTI W12-650

it is not a horrible chassis!!! the 106 maxi and saxo f2 kit car had 240= bhp and were the ultimate in there class. in 2001 sebastian loeb won every race he entered in his 1.6 non turbo saxo. THIS CHASSIS IS FAMED AS BEING POSSIBLY THE FINEST FWD CHASSIS OFF ALL TIME. IT OVERSTEERS NOTHING ELSE

[clutch-monkey]

^ that title belongs to the DC2 Integra Type R :D

[apple HEAD]

did it come with a LSD? Coz when you fit one to a pug/citroen they become very special.

One of the reasons was the stiff and robust torsion bar rear axle that over the years became very typical for French cars. Firm torsion bars along the axle itself made coil springs obsolete while the dampers were horizontally located along the longitudinally mounted trailing arms (the axle itself being located in front of the wheels rather than between them).
For road use this allowed the tiniest inner wheel arches, giving the car an ultra wide, flat boot.
In driving physics it meant the wheel travel was always in a straight line rather than in a camber as with the traditional triangle track control arms (usually in curves turning negative on the outside rear wheel, such having that wheel flat on the ground, which is not the case on the Peugeot torsion bar rear axle).
This was on the 205 combined with an unbelieveable traction and front grip for a FWD. All this already meant the FWD 205 never had a tendency to understeer, it was in fact more wildly oversteering than many RWD cars.
Add to this the low weight, especially on the rear, a super direct and crisp steering, strong and reliable brakes, easy going low end torque, the 205 was such a superb overall package that it could make up its power deficit for a long time and in a real fun manner.

[Ferrer]

- Renault Clio V6
- Renault 5 Turbo2
- Ford Escort RS Cosworth
- Lancia Delta S4 Abarth Stradale
- Lancia Delta HF Integrale 16v
- Volkswagen Golf GTI W12-650
None of those is the ultimate hot hatch. Well maybe the Delta.

They are too fast and complicated and unpractical.

[apple HEAD]

i agree. 205 rallye for the win. would make mincemeat of a golf/rabbit

[NSXType-R]

Old Civic Type R. I would say the Integra Type R too, but I don't know if that exactly is a hot hatch.

[McReis]

Welcome to the forums.

Now, about Saxo/AX/106/205, althou agile, it was a quite horrible chassis, specialy safety-wise, it was just horrid! But although the Saxo Cup was quite a lively car (120hp, 600kg), you can't call that "ultimate".

Since this thread has apparently turned to "the Golf/Rabbit hommage thread" and that's going a bit (lot?) off-toppic, these would be my choices for the ultimate hot hatches:
- Renault Clio V6
- Renault 5 Turbo2
- Ford Escort RS Cosworth
- Lancia Delta S4 Abarth Stradale
- Lancia Delta HF Integrale 16v
- Volkswagen Golf GTI W12-650

I highly disagree. The Saxo/106 and 205 chassis may feel dangerous by modern standards. But so does an original 911 and yet it doesn't count as a bad car. The small french cars always had a rich repertoire in what comes to handling. You can do what you want with your cornering angles, cause they are agile, but that means you must be aware of their "loseness".

I don't see any of those cars you listed as an "hot-hatch". My interpretation of an "hot-hatch" is the usual spiced-up version of a small FWD.

[Tall_G]

Personally I'm a bit more classic-minded, so would throw my vote into the Lambo Espada. Now there's a hot hatch.
But if I had to be sensible and modern, please throw me the keys to an AM DBS - plenty of room for a few groceries under that sexy hatch, and trabvelling in style ('ecpt for that stupid start-up emotion control bullcrap).

[apple HEAD]

I highly disagree. The Saxo/106 and 205 chassis may feel dangerous by modern standards. But so does an original 911 and yet it doesn't count as a bad car. The small french cars always had a rich repertoire in what comes to handling. You can do what you want with your cornering angles, cause they are agile, but that means you must be aware of their "loseness".

I don't see any of those cars you listed as an "hot-hatch". My interpretation of an "hot-hatch" is the usual spiced-up version of a small FWD.

Well said McReis i totally agree. and its just got to be French Ha Ha

you can get a good example of any of the above cars for about £750

infact a good friend of mine recently bought a Miami blue 205 with all alloy MI16 1.9 engine with 160 bhp for £900.

Its just as quick as a lot of more modern and powerfull cars due to its famed suspension set-up and very low weight.

my personal favourite hot hatch-http://www.carfolio.com/images/dbimages/zgas/models/id/3296/citroen_ax_sport.jpg

[apple HEAD]

in saying that, the last three "not so good" AX's i bought were all under £100

[Joao Gois]

it is not a horrible chassis!!! the 106 maxi and saxo f2 kit car had 240= bhp and were the ultimate in there class. in 2001 sebastian loeb won every race he entered in his 1.6 non turbo saxo. THIS CHASSIS IS FAMED AS BEING POSSIBLY THE FINEST FWD CHASSIS OFF ALL TIME. IT OVERSTEERS NOTHING ELSE

I think I didn't make myself clear. When I mean "the chassis is horrible", I'm not refering to its layout or capabilities. I'm really talking about the structure! It's widelly known that if you're in a serious crash with any of those, there's slim to none possibilities of you getting out of it alive! I know it handles awesome (yes, possibly one of the best HANDLING FWD cars you can get... or maybe it's 156... :D) but it's just not safe!

As for the Saxo Kit Car or 106 Maxi, don't forget those are heavily modified structures when compared to the road cars... But once again, I wasn't talking about handling!

[Ferrer]

I think I didn't make myself clear. When I mean "the chassis is horrible", I'm not refering to its layout or capabilities. I'm really talking about the structure! It's widelly known that if you're in a serious crash with any of those, there's slim to none possibilities of you getting out of it alive! I know it handles awesome (yes, possibly one of the best HANDLING FWD cars you can get... or maybe it's 156... :D) but it's just not safe!
Like most of the similar vintage cars.

[apple HEAD]

I think I didn't make myself clear. When I mean "the chassis is horrible", I'm not refering to its layout or capabilities. I'm really talking about the structure! It's widelly known that if you're in a serious crash with any of those, there's slim to none possibilities of you getting out of it alive! I know it handles awesome (yes, possibly one of the best HANDLING FWD cars you can get... or maybe it's 156... :D) but it's just not safe!

As for the Saxo Kit Car or 106 Maxi, don't forget those are heavily modified structures when compared to the road cars... But once again, I wasn't talking about handling!

fair enough mate. this is what my last 1.1 60 hp AX looked like after a diversion through a fieldhttp://106_xs_1l6_1127769980_ax12.jpg

[apple HEAD]

http://106_xs_1l6_1127769980_ax12.jpg

[henk4]

fair enough mate. this is what my last 1.1 60 hp AX looked like after a diversion through a fieldhttp://106_xs_1l6_1127769980_ax12.jpg

we had 50 BHP for a while, and yes it was carton thin, but weighed in less than 700 kgs. somewhere you have to compromise....a 75 BHP 1.4 Saxo that followed was a bit less interesting.

[apple HEAD]

http://www.bebo.com/PhotoAlbumBig.jsp?MemberId=6823104799&PhotoAlbumId=9331179595&PhotoId=9343425089

[apple HEAD]

Third time luckyhttp://www.bebo.com/PhotoAlbumBig.jsp?MemberId=6823104799&PhotoAlbumId=9331179595&PhotoId=9343425089

[apple HEAD]

im sorry people im trying to post a picture here and i cant as im not very good with computers damn it.

[Zytek_Fan]

I'd say the Renault Megane Trophy or Clio Trophy.

[henk4]

im sorry people im trying to post a picture here and i cant as im not very good with computers damn it.

use the attachment system...(see: Manage Attachement, underneath your reply window)

[apple HEAD]

we had 50 BHP for a while, and yes it was carton thin, but weighed in less than 700 kgs. somewhere you have to compromise....a 75 BHP 1.4 Saxo that followed was a bit less interesting.

you have a point there. My favourite ever was and still is my wee blue 958cc

i love that car, it is a part of the family. my daughter calls it the "wee toy car" ha ha ha

very good fuell economy and still loads of fun to drive. It has to be revved hard.

The car was very economical, largely because of excellent aerodynamics for its class of car (drag coefficient of 0.31) and a very light weight of 640 kg

It can return about 55 MPG and thats with me driving. Ha Ha

it can also just pull 100 MPH which is more than enough for a wee city car.

have been off the clock on my old 90 hp GT 120 MPH+ ON A TRACK of coarse

[henk4]

you have a point there. My favourite ever was and still is my wee blue 958cc

i love that car, it is a part of the family. my daughter calls it the "wee toy car" ha ha ha

very good fuell economy and still loads of fun to drive. It has to be revved hard.

The car was very economical, largely because of excellent aerodynamics for its class of car (drag coefficient of 0.31) and a very light weight of 640 kg

It can return about 55 MPG and thats with me driving. Ha Ha

it can also just pull 100 MPH which is more than enough for a wee city car.

have been off the clock on my old 90 hp GT 120 MPH+ ON A TRACK of coarse

there are moments when I think that an AX GTi is a very attractive car, but then again where are the moments you can really enjoy driving it?

[apple HEAD]

i found manage attachments and i an going to have another go now> thank you mate>

it says valid file extension> here goes!:eek:

[apple HEAD]

yes!!! cheers mate>

i dont no how i did it yesterday wen i posted a pic of an AX sport on this thread?

[Joao Gois]

i found manage attachments and i an going to have another go now> thank you mate>

it says valid file extension> here goes!:eek:

OMG!!!! How did you get out of it alive!?!?!?:eek::eek::eek:

[apple HEAD]

Thats what my mother said when she came to get me from the Scrap yard.

it was a horrible experience and im glad i was alone and that no other road users were involved.

iwas very lucky not to be badly hurt. just a very sore head and lots of cuts and bruises!

[Joao Gois]

But how did you do that? I mean, you were alone? Rollover?

[apple HEAD]

long sweeping bend + too much speed + twitchy handling + cow shit on the road= recipie for disaster.

the car left the road backwards through a hedge and then rolled one or two times before smashing into a tree.

the car was on its roof with the engine still revving hard and lots of black smoke flying out of exhaust.

i am now far more carefull on country roads ,lanes.

[Tall_G]

Anybody remember the Giacottolo? Aussie-made Alfa Sud with a 5.0L V8 Holden motor mounted mid-ships. Went like stink, had a very sexy body kit.
Anybody out there in UCP land got digital photos of this to post? Please??

[f6fhellcat13]

Do a sezrch for it, I seem to remember it coming up

[clutch-monkey]

Anybody remember the Giacottolo? Aussie-made Alfa Sud with a 5.0L V8 Holden motor mounted mid-ships. Went like stink, had a very sexy body kit.
Anybody out there in UCP land got digital photos of this to post? Please??

haha you're in luck if this is it; badges match anyway.
from the mother's day show n shine; (search my threads)

[clutch-monkey]

my only shots of a different one at Phillip Island, mayeb ask Daan if he has more shots (wasn't really a prime target at that event haha).

[fpv_gtho]

Not really a hatchback that one...

[jcp123]

I think it'd be fun to have something in the compact class with rear-drive, an NA hard-revving, small six (~2,5l, maybe 260ish-280ish hp), a six-speed tranny, and available in stripped-down club racer form all the way up to a sporty upscale compact along the lines of a Mazda 3 or perhaps even an Audi A3. You could offer hatch, of course, along with some notchbacks. Something light, handy, tossable, and tuned for being more fun to drive in a visceral sense than the Evo or STi, even if it's not ultimately as fast.

[Ferrer]

I think it'd be fun to have something in the compact class with rear-drive, an NA hard-revving, small six (~2,5l, maybe 260ish-280ish hp), a six-speed tranny, and available in stripped-down club racer form all the way up to a sporty upscale compact along the lines of a Mazda 3 or perhaps even an Audi A3. You could offer hatch, of course, along with some notchbacks. Something light, handy, tossable, and tuned for being more fun to drive in a visceral sense than the Evo or STi, even if it's not ultimately as fast.
You are more or less describing the BMW 1er.

[apple HEAD]

Why did everyone stop making small affordable RWD hatchbacks? the only such car i have ever had the pleasure of driving was a 1981 1litre Toyota Starlet.

Bring back the Mkll Ford Escort!

[Bleeding Heart]

How about this hatchback...
http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee24/andreas-bmw/Resize_of_Toyota_Corolla_AE86.jpg

[cmcpokey]

i hate AE86s. i truely do.

[f6fhellcat13]

i hate AE86s. i truely do.

Cuz of the people who drive them?

[Bleeding Heart]

i hate AE86s. i truely do.

Why... Is it because it is a weak car...

I wouldn't say that... This thing could beat a dodge viper or a nissan skyline when it comes to drifting...

[Bleeding Heart]

Cuz of the people who drive them?

What's the problem with the drivers???

[cmcpokey]

Why... Is it because it is a weak car...

I wouldn't say that... This thing could beat a dodge viper or a nissan skyline when it comes to drifting...

thank you for exemplifying my arguement.

[Ferrer]

thank you for exemplifying my arguement.
Lol. :D

[charged]

^^^^ LOL

My105.com :: Proconcept EK Civic (http://www.my105.com/classified.asp?id=10763)
/end thread:)

[fpv_gtho]

Why did everyone stop making small affordable RWD hatchbacks? the only such car i have ever had the pleasure of driving was a 1981 1litre Toyota Starlet.

Bring back the Mkll Ford Escort!

Because theyre not that affordable anymore, to buy or to develop.

[Tall_G]

Not really a hatchback that one...

Dude, there's a hatch at the back, what more do you want? Admittedly you wouldn't fit the groceries in there unless you wanted them fried, but you gotta think outside the square. This is a very hot hatch.

Folks, that's the honour of the Giacottolo I'm defending here. Better late than never as the mailman would day.

[fpv_gtho]

Thats more of a sports coupe type of body. Alot like a Celica, which isnt a hatchback either.

[Cyco]

Aston V12 Vantage RS, though there are rumours that it won't share 100% of the V8's body and the hatch may go

[Tall_G]

Thats more of a sports coupe type of body. Alot like a Celica, which isnt a hatchback either.

Agree about the Celica, but the Afla Sud is a hatchback, and the Giacottolo is just a Sud on steroids.

[Juggs]

heh heh heh I think I'll stir up a little controversy here.....I have a very different idea of a the ultimate hot hatch. just think about this before you judge to harshley. You can find these at bargain prices, the aftermarket for them is HUGE! maybe one of the largest aftermarkets out there even, pretty lightweight from the factory and can be made to be extremely light weight and still maintain a full interior, v8 power, reliable.

Now yes maybe from the factory brakes and handling may not quite be up to par with some of the japanese hatches, but its not as horrible as you may think. Also once again with the aftermarket support extremely good handling is not too big of an investment away. Not to mention you can get a fully done up one for under 10k and have one of the baddest rides in your town!

what issss it???





LOL sorry. but its true.

[Rockefella]

heh heh heh I think I'll stir up a little controversy here.....I have a very different idea of a the ultimate hot hatch. just think about this before you judge to harshley. You can find these at bargain prices, the aftermarket for them is HUGE! maybe one of the largest aftermarkets out there even, pretty lightweight from the factory and can be made to be extremely light weight and still maintain a full interior, v8 power, reliable.

Now yes maybe from the factory brakes and handling may not quite be up to par with some of the japanese hatches, but its not as horrible as you may think. Also once again with the aftermarket support extremely good handling is not too big of an investment away. Not to mention you can get a fully done up one for under 10k and have one of the baddest rides in your town!

what issss it???





LOL sorry. but its true.

I've never really considered five-oh mustangs hatches.

[Juggs]

I've never really considered five-oh mustangs hatches.

well they are. they have 3 styles. convertable, notchback (my personal fave) and hatchback. All fox GT's and cobras were hatchbacks (excluding verts). You could get the LX in either coupe (notch) or in hatchback or vert.

[Rockefella]

well they are. they have 3 styles. convertable, notchback (my personal fave) and hatchback. All fox GT's and cobras were hatchbacks (excluding verts). You could get the LX in either coupe (notch) or in hatchback or vert.

I understand. When I look at them though it just doesn't strike me as hatch. When I think hatch cars like the golf come to mind when it's unmistakeable. The Mustang hatch seems almost like a hybrid style. Doesn't take away from it's performance for me but I personally don't classify it as a hatch.

Carry on..

[f6fhellcat13]

Technically SUVs are also hatches, but that's just being pedantic. :p

[Rockefella]

technically suvs are also hatches, but that's just being pedantic. :p

cayenne turbo is teh bestttt!

[jcp123]

You are more or less describing the BMW 1er.

Correct me if I am wrong, but being a BMW, it covers more the upper end of the market, not really the el-strippo club racer types? I had thought something more geared to the STi and Evo set than BMW types.

[Zytek_Fan]

As long as we're getting into coupe hatchbacks:

http://images.eurotuner.com/images/160_0701_et_38z+tuner_grand_prix+audi_coupe_quattr o.jpg

[Ferrer]

Technically SUVs are also hatches, but that's just being pedantic. :p
Estates are hatchbacks too then...

Correct me if I am wrong, but being a BMW, it covers more the upper end of the market, not really the el-strippo club racer types? I had thought something more geared to the STi and Evo set than BMW types.
Yeah it does. Well maybe the recently unveiled Performance packages cater more the STI and EVO sort of costumer.

[Juggs]

I understand. When I look at them though it just doesn't strike me as hatch. When I think hatch cars like the golf come to mind when it's unmistakeable. The Mustang hatch seems almost like a hybrid style. Doesn't take away from it's performance for me but I personally don't classify it as a hatch.

Carry on..

LOL its ok, I understood what you were getting at the first time. I kind of agree with you too actually but like I said I was just tryin to stir up some controversy. Besides if I wanted to talk about really hot hatches I'd bring up the 4th gen WS6 and camaro SS. turd gen f-bodies were also hatches.

and while an SUV may have a back hatch its not a hatchback its an SUV. fox stangs, and third and fourth gen f-bodies were/are technically (in all reality) hatchbacks and were called so accordingly.

[Tall_G]

heh heh heh I think I'll stir up a little controversy here.....I have a very different idea of a the ultimate hot hatch. just think about this before you judge to harshley. You can find these at bargain prices, the aftermarket for them is HUGE! maybe one of the largest aftermarkets out there even, pretty lightweight from the factory and can be made to be extremely light weight and still maintain a full interior, v8 power, reliable.

Now yes maybe from the factory brakes and handling may not quite be up to par with some of the japanese hatches, but its not as horrible as you may think. Also once again with the aftermarket support extremely good handling is not too big of an investment away. Not to mention you can get a fully done up one for under 10k and have one of the baddest rides in your town!

LOL sorry. but its true.

My youngest brother had two of these at different times in the 90's. One a mildly modified model, which was pretty good allround, but ended up virtually abandoned on my parents driveway when he started breeding. The other was a former race car returned to the road, & was brilliant if bonejarring on most roads. Went like stink and handled supremely (except on badly potholed corners where things got a bit interesting...), plus plenty of off-the-shelf parts available to decorate or decimate. Sold it to a guy who converted it for drag racing. Hot hatch indeed.

[kennyknoxville]

2006 honda type r