Car Design as we know it could be dead

[Coventrysucks]

A lot of complaints have been aired about rather trivial facets of current car design.

Many people seem to enjoy criticising BMW for example, and a favorite past-time of mine is bad-mouthing the current hideous beasts Ferrari keep coming up with.

However, car design still runs on much the same formula as it has done for the last 30 or so years.

Engine, passenger compartment and luggage space segragated into three distinct compartments - everything else is largely cosmetic.

We are rapidly approaching a juncture that could completely revolutionise car design as we know it.

First of all there are new EU legislations coming into force soon, to do with Pedestrian safety, and the dreaded Head Impact Criteria (HIC).

I can't remember exactly when this is coming into force, but it isn't more than a generation (usu. 6 years) or two away.

This legislation basically requires the front of a car to conform to a certain number of regulations, e.g there must be 'X'mm between the bonnet of the car, and any hardpoints (such as the engine and ancillaries).

The first company to obviously make some steps towards compliance are PSA, with the Peugeot 407 and Citroen C4.

They have gone down the route of rather bulbous, rounded bonnet profiles, designed to cushion a wayward pedestrian, combined with huge front overhangs to increase space in front of the engine.

This has major implications for SUVs and sports cars in particular.
Exactly how slab fronted SUVs will get past this legislation is a tricky question, admitted by Landrover designer Andy Wheel.

It will be similarly difficult to make a low slung (front engined) sports car, with enough space above the engine.

One solution could be "active" safety measures, such as bonnet airbags etc, but how could they be configured to distinguish between a child hit at 25mph, and something smaller, such as a piece of debris, at a higher speed?

The other major factor that will change design is the increasing use of Hydrogen powered vehicles, the majority of which use fuel cells rather than a conventional engine package, aswell as other technological advances such as drive-by-wire, and new materials and construction processes.

Maybe the replacement of the traditional internal combustion engine package will negate the effects of the HIC legislation, maybe it won't.

I think that car design in its current form could well be consigned to history.
(And hopefully there will be more jobs than at present.)

[UK CARS]

Did Andy Wheelers Disco pass the HIC legislation?
Tell me more about this HIC legislation, is it applied against every new car?

[Coventrysucks]

Did Andy Wheelers Disco pass the HIC legislation?
Tell me more about this HIC legislation, is it applied against every new car?

The new Disco is better for pedestrian impact with the optional nudge/ protector bars added than without, due to their "softness". (Still wouldn't want to be hit by nearly 3 tonnes of Solihull's finest!)

AFAIK the Disco 3 is not HIC compliant.

I can't remember off the top of my head exactly when, or in what form the legislation will come in.

The body "responsible" appears to be the EECV (European Enhanced Vehicle-safety Committee)

"The European car industry proposed in early 2000 a voluntary agreement which comprised the package of measures outlined below:

Phase 1:
2 tests - legform (bumper only) and combined child and adult area to be met by
July 2005 - all new types
July 2010 - 80% of all new vehicles, 90% 2011, 100% 2012.

Phase 2:
4 tests - legform, upper leg, child head, adult head to be met by
2010 - all new types
2012-2014 - by all new vehicles

Read more (http://www.maa.nsw.gov.au/pdfs/ped_safety_sem7.pdf) (pdf)

I might have something more up to date, I'll have a rummage.

[Niko_Fx]

Too many people die in car accidents nowadays... if this can be stopped then go ahead and make cars any way you like them and as safe as possible. Luckily I have never ever lost any close relative on a car accident, and I hope I never do... But I don't need that to happen to realize that something needs to be done about it.




Karrmann is a car designer, he should have a say in this

You made me laugh so hard when I read this.

[Rockefella]

Karrman is 14.

[ruim20]

We will have to go around it, in any case its a good opurtunity to make something new, i just don't get why we keep making up laws insted of giving formation and more complete driving lessons, any "moron" can drive a car, but who can drive it responsably?

I don't think supercars are in danger, the engine is in the back in a proper supercar, so the front as enough space for the "cushoning"... i guess...

[Coventrysucks]

There is a large issue to do with education and social issues.

According to studies the pedestrialns most likely to be hit by a car are people spilling out of pubs and into the road at closing time.

Also the group of children most likely to be hit are from "deprived" areas.

Largely the legislation doesn't help make cars safer, it just adds a bizzare set of rules which must be observed by designers.

For instance, the rule about how you must have "X" mm between the bonnet and engine:
What if you don't have a bonnet or engine? You can't apply those rules to pass legislation.

They are very badly thought out.

As with all crash testing it is based on very controlled circumstances, set speeds and angles.

Did you know that women drivers are more likely to be injured in accidents than men, because the "female" crash test dummies are more like scaled down "male" dummies, and therefor leave out vital anthropometric information, which causes the additional injuries.

Why they think that a prescribed, largely untested in the real world, rigid requirements will somehow be hugely effective in cutting the number of deaths is debatable.

[PerfAdv]

I'm all for safer cars but the idea of pedestrian protecting cars is like capping off the sharp points on the horns of a bull will soft cushioning. All because sometimes farm workers get gored by irate cattle. Just to argue the point, wouldn't it be easier to channel pedestrian traffic, so drunk pub patrons don't walk into cars? Okay, lets say a pedestrian rolls on the cushioning/protection and hits their head on the windshield? I realize you stated that this is in the preliminary stages, but as a critic and naysayer, it seems a lost cause.

I've seen a cyclist stuck in the wheel-well of a Ford Tauras as the FWD pulled the poor guy in. His family could lobby to make the openings leading to the space around the wheels should be smaller, so pedestrians and other road-occuring humans aren't sucked in and mauled by dangerous autos. How about getting hit by a well-cushioned car but falling on the hard asphalt?

Some measure of safety would be good. As the "X" number of mm in cushioning before actual structure. Helpful in the 'nudgings' that can take place in heavily trafficed city streets where lots of peds, cycles, cars, and buses are present.

[Coventrysucks]

Some measure of safety would be good. As the "X" number of mm in cushioning before actual structure. Helpful in the 'nudgings' that can take place in heavily trafficed city streets where lots of peds, cycles, cars, and buses are present.

Ah! but it wouldn't be helpful at all.

The front of the car will have to be "soft" to protect pedestrians, so when you do nudge someone you could end up doing a huge ammount of damage to the panels.

It could be worse with "active systems".

Imagine if you have a car with a deployable safety system, like an airbag or similar, that is designed to deploy if it detects you hitting someone's "legs".

Now imagine driving that car into an inanimate object accidentally, a bollard, post etc.

What would have been a replacement bumper and paint touch up is now major work, and will probably be hugely expensive.

I am not saying pedestrian safety is a bad thing, it is the way the EU seem to want to do it.

[PerfAdv]

Smells of car manufacturers wanting to get in on some of the post sale, sales of parts! Since it'll be litigation driven it's sure to make it to the States in a big way, justifying the addition of thousands to the price of your car.

[Matra et Alpine]

it's more the safety-minded people getting too much say in the issue and picking on an 'easy' target - the manufacturer - rather than tackling the much harder issue of education, seperation of pedestrain and car.

I think it's unlikely to be parts replacement driven as defomerable and pop-back panels have been used on Renault's for nearly 30 years now. It's just more of the same. Except of course a high speed impact :(

What astounds me on their short-sightedbess is that it's likely to make small compact cars very difficult to meet the new requirements, so we're going to end up with bigger cars. Bigger cars mean more congestion in towns and villages. Somethign we're realisign we have to control.

Can't see active systems workign on anything but the bonnet as in the US I had to learn the standrd proecedure of using the bumpers to ease the space bigger to get the car out and to be pushed out of an intersection by a police patrol car. Could just see the streets of New York full of cars with 'active bumpers' all going off driving out of a meter space :)

[quattro_20v]

I cant imagine a world full of french designed cars... :S. And I think it's still the ppl that are the weak link and not the cars...

[audivwmeister]

great idea. :rolleyes: lets make it so people getting hit by cars don't get killed. instead they get really f'd up and end up suing the driver for big bux. i'll pass. the designs of cars coming out today and the lack of rawness (for lack of a better word) has really sparked my attention to older cars. cars are emotional, if you take out the emotion, you might as just take mass transit (which sucks @$$ here in california.)

[jcp123]

Cars are inherently dangerous...nobody can ever totally eliminate that, and meanwhile, the safeti nazis make cars that much more complicated and expensive for everyone else.

As for me, I'll take my chances with lap belts, without airbags, etc...

[Luciferous]

I know where the ideas coming from, but exceptions should be made for sports cars and so on. If I was gonna be killed by getting hit by a car I'd be pretty cool with it if it was a Carrera GT...

[danno]

im hoping to get into car design eventually (im doing industrial design at uni next year) and it seems to me like many governments have begun to hate cars (britain and australia especially) with billions of speed cameras, big brother systems to tell whether your car is speeding, ridiculously low speed limits in some areas, and these pedestrian safety measures.

dont get me wrong, im all for making it safer, but it can be done in better ways than this. things like proper driver education for instance. lessons on how to avoid obstacles/small children etc. as well as teaching basic safety rules in school. also, cars can be fitted with safety devices to detect if there is a person on the road ahead. a scanner for instance, to detect all humans around, their activity, etc. and warn you if someone looks like theyre about to cross the road. the technology exists, and wouldnt be that hard to implement.

[Matra et Alpine]

For sure danno, education is best.

I think EVERYONE shoouold be made to ride a motorbike for a year.
Self-preservation is a great educator :)

Also, on automatic danger detection, the problem is false alarms.
Any system that warns of something which doesn't seem a danger to the driver will soon be ignored and forgotten about :(

[Coventrysucks]

Kevin Rice, of BMW had this to say on Pedestrian Safety Legislation:
Are they going too far?
It will have a "massive impact" on design, "the whole industry is suffering together".
"We haven't found a way round it yet", it will be "difficult to produce a good looking car"*.

* - They have that problem anyway.

[quattro_20v]

As long as people are driving the car it will be dangerous I think. If they come with some system where u can press ur destination and it auto goes there it would be the safest I think, but also quite boring.
And I encounter a lot of people who just dont seem to get it how to drive decently. I also see an accident like every day. One time, some old man crashed with his car on the highway, it had happened for just like 1 minute, there was a 40m trail of car parts and the man in it was all red of blood, he was still alive tho. There were 2 ppl already to help the man. I cleaned up the road some, there were really big parts on it and it was dark too... After about 10 mins the first emergency vehicles arrived, at the end when I went home, there were 13 emergency vehicles.
But when u see these things, it just makes u realize that it can always be dangerous in a car, even when ur a good driver...

[Innotech]

I think it is really stupid legislation and I hope it never makes it to hte Us. Of course, htis is hte LAND OF LITIGATION.

[Coventrysucks]

I think it is really stupid legislation and I hope it never makes it to hte Us. Of course, htis is hte LAND OF LITIGATION.

All vehicles that will be sold in Europe will have to adhere to the legislation.

So that will be all of VAG, PSA, BMW, Porsche, FIAT group, a significant chunk of Ford group and GM aswell as the Daimler half of DaimlerChrysler. And then there are the global cars from the Far East, some of which are sold in the USA.

Also if you think it is stupid to try and save lives, you're an idiot.

[gtrjazz]

Honda are the leaders in pedestrian safety their civic was the first car to take it seriously before any laws were passed. The front wings are not mounted to the inner wing but on brackets that absorb impact. The wiper assembly is designed to break on impact and drop under the bonnet. The bonnet was also a soft zone. Do the other OEMs really care about such things or just pay it lip service when it suits or when they are made to?

[Coventrysucks]

Do the other OEMs really care about such things or just pay it lip service when it suits or when they are made to?

Car manufacturers have no obligation to make cars safe, they simply have to comply with whatever laws are in place.

They are not there for your benefit, they are there to make money for themselves.

A few companies put a lot of effort into making their cars safe, as that is part of the appeal to that brand's core market.

Obviously if a car is percieved to be "unsafe" and gains a bad reputation, that would hurt sales, which the manufacturers don't want.

But you can be sure that they are definately not doing everything within their power to make cars safer.

[bullen]

hi, im currently writing my dissertation title: Is legislation changing the design of cars?? and would be very greatful if you could e-mail me any information on legislation which would affect the exterior styling of a car, such as headlight height, windscreen rake angle etc....................

many thanks, dan

[email protected]

[Matra et Alpine]

bullen, you shold go check out the NCAP sites and the European Pedestraian safety regulations which come in in (I think) 2007. It is having a LARGE impact (:)) on the front end design for all manufacturers. Sorry I've no direct links, go google :)

[Mustang]

take a look here

http://www.cardesignnews.com/features/2004/041228pforzheim-show/gallery/index7.html

[Coventrysucks]

The legislation you are looking for is the 1958 Agreement (http://www.unece.org/trans/main/wp29/wp29regs.html).

I don't know which bit exactly, but it is in there somewhere.

1958 Appears to cover just about anything to do with cars btw.

[Matra et Alpine]

Slightly plainer English on the pedestrian tests are in http://www.euroncap.com/downloads/test_procedures/area_3/event_2/EuroNCAP%20Pedestrian%20Protocol%204.1.pdf

If you are suffering insomnia you can see the workings of Euroepan committees at http://www.eevc.org/ for ALL the details on the Enhanced Safety Vehicle proposals

[Lotus_Luva]

Do u think the megane's arse is safety feature for when reversing?

[Matra et Alpine]

Do u think the megane's arse is safety feature for when reversing?
Oddly, it may well be ( just not for reversing ).
THE common flaw with people carriers and "big-inside" hatchbacks has been their poor perfomance when rear-ended :(

Personally I think the Megane just reflects the fetish the French have for the female form :)

[cmcpokey]

i love the megane's rear end... looks so much sexier than any american cars. french cars may be a bit silly most of the time, but they are usually very beautiful at the same time.