Which Le Mans car?

Which post 1970 Le Mans racing car do you think is the best, and why?
(if your choice isn't included, just post what yours would be)

Audi R8. The fact that the entire engine/transmission/rear suspension can be changed in under five minutes combined the the reliability and performance made it a game changer.

Runners up: Porsche 911 GT1.

The Completely Mad Award goes to the Porsche 935K for it's awesomeness/ridiculousness.

917/30. For the insane hp rating (consider the time!!!).

The 962 for its amazing winning record, certainly if you look at the cars impressive stats and note that the car isnt right at all these records simply become more incredible

Audi R8, dominant and reliable, two things needed for endurance racing

2 cars that has to be in is the Porsche 956/962, and Audi R8. Both of them are cars that defined an era, and had multiple wins.

Audi R10 TDI has to be the honorable mention. First diesel car to win, and in the latter part of its life was punching above its weight against the Peugeot...

The simple fact that the Porsche 962/956 could win almost 20 years after it's creation simply makes it the greatest Le Mans car EVER!.
(The TWR Porsche, was an modified Porsche 962 chassis, which is based on the 956.)

[quote=Brix;947535]The simple fact that the Porsche 962/956 could win almost 20 years after it's creation simply makes it the greatest Le Mans car EVER!.
(The TWR Porsche, was an modified Porsche 962 chassis, which is based on the 956.)[/quote]
WSC95 was a modified Jaguar XJR-14 chassis....

I love plenty of these cars but I enjoy Audi's decision to not only use diesel engines, but then to win on top of that just seems really significant to me. I'm just sad they decided not to put the V12TDI engine in an R8 production model - it would have been epic and instantly been one of my favourite cars of all time.

Jag's XJR 12 belongs on that list

[quote=Cyco;947607]Jag's XJR 12 belongs on that list[/quote]

As there are only a maximum of 15 poll options, all the greats could obviously not be included. The XJR-12 is certainly an honourable mention though.

For me it is the Mazda 787B. My favorite Le Mans car is the Porsche 962. However, the Mazda 787B is the only Japanese car ever to win the Le Mans 24 hours. And with a rotary engine. Especially notable was the fact that it was racing against some pretty daunting opposition, namely, the Jag XJR's and Mercedes C11's, both of which had far more chance of victory on paper.

[quote=KillKevsCorsas;947617]As there are only a maximum of 15 poll options, all the greats could obviously not be included. The XJR-12 is certainly an honourable mention though.

For me it is the Mazda 787B. My favorite Le Mans car is the Porsche 962. However, the Mazda 787B is the only Japanese car ever to win the Le Mans 24 hours. And with a rotary engine. Especially notable was the fact that it was racing against some pretty daunting opposition, namely, the Jag XJR's and Mercedes C11's, both of which had far more chance of victory on paper.[/quote]
But was restricted far more.

[quote=Brix;947620]But was restricted far more.[/quote]

How do you mean?

As far as i remember the old Group C. cars (the Mercs, Jags and Porsches) got restrictions because of the move towards the 3.5L engines.

The Porsche 917 should not appear in the list....its last race at Le Mans was IN 1970.
Significant cars missing:
Matra V12/670
Ferrari 312 PB
Porsche 935
Porsche 936....
and the most significant one is the Rondeau, the only car driven by its constructor to an overall win.

[quote=henk4;947631]The Porsche 917 should not appear in the list....its last race at Le Mans was IN 1970.
Significant cars missing:
Matra V12/670
Ferrari 312 PB
Porsche 935
Porsche 936....
and the most significant one is the Rondeau, the only car driven by its constructor to an overall win.[/quote]

71 actually....917 won 70 and 71...

[quote=RacingManiac;947841]71 actually....917 won 70 and 71...[/quote]

oops...I was may be too focused on what appeared like the thread starter decided to ignore all LM cars produced before 1984 with one exception. (For me the 917 will always be a 1969 car...)

[quote=henk4;947842]oops...[/quote]

Well done, it is always a good thing when a senior person demonstrates humility and acknowledges a mistake.

And IIRC it was still used in a very heavily modified form thanks to a loophole in the rules in the early 80's, by Kremer I think.

EDIT The 917, that is.

[quote=Ferrer;947867]And IIRC it was still used in a very heavily modified form thanks to a loophole in the rules in the early 80's, by Kremer I think.

EDIT The 917, that is.[/quote]

the 917K-81, much slower than the original 917...(the loophole was that engine size was free for 1981 in anticipation of the 1982 Group C Cars).
The car did about 80 laps in 1981 until an oil tube burst.

I voted for the 908, just having seen it making minced meat of the R15 this weekend, what they actually should have done in Le Mans as well, were it not for a number coincidental failures.

Their Le Mans debacle, inexcusable, IMO, for a 4 year old car.....How they managed to find new shit to break after 4 years is beyond me...

908 is probably the fastest car after 1970, chicane or not(I am sure its a 400+kph car if were to run on that track). But the car never fully realized its potential. It won Le Mans once, when it really should have won it 4 times. R10 had no business beating it, but it always did find way to win over the much faster car. Comparatively, cars like R8 fully lived up to its potential and beyond, winning the race even after the car was crippled much of its speed. I think the stats was that the car won 70% of the races it entered or something, NEVER had an engine failure.....It was the fastest car of its time, and it was also the most reliable.....

[quote=RacingManiac;947894]Their Le Mans debacle, inexcusable, IMO, for a 4 year old car.....How they managed to find new shit to break after 4 years is beyond me...[/quote]

that is a long story. Actually by 20.00 hours on Saturday evening, they allegedly knew that they would probably not see the finish.

[quote=henk4;947895]that is a long story. Actually by 20.00 hours on Saturday evening, they allegedly knew that they would probably not see the finish.[/quote]


Again, inexcusable....

[quote=henk4;947895]that is a long story.[/quote]

Do tell.

[quote=Kitdy;947898]Do tell.[/quote]

it starts of with the fact that the road shoulders were cleaned not the usual one week, but two weeks before the race.....

sounds like the start of a hell of a conspiracy theory.

[quote=cmcpokey;947932]sounds like the start of a hell of a conspiracy theory.[/quote]

yes, part of it is the deliberate distrubution of clogging rubble alongside the track, with special capabilities to stick to French diesel cars.....

Wellt he missing ones have already been mentioned and I am ( as usual ) dusmayed at lack of recognition when France makes cars that can win.. and other "heroic efforts".

So M670, winning 3 years running. AND without the "benefit" that the GT40 had in getting it's multiple wins by flooding the field :) Besides, that V12 is THE most evocative souding engine out there :)

What about the Alpine(-Renault) A442 ? Again ONLY brought to the track to save French national pride and the company did what was asked of them to win. Another great sound from the turbo era. 2litre 500hp :) ( aside ... topped at >235 mph on Mulsanne the fastest Renault ever including the F1 entries. )

and yes the 787B should be in every poll EVER on Le Mans car for the engineering, the sound and the story :)

The sound and the story yes, the engineering is meh....as far as its peer goes it was nothing special. Rotaries' been around for a while, and was never particularly competitive. It won through some unusual circumstances and it happens to be reliable enough to hold off the faster cars...

Historically its definitely an important win, but if you are just comparing cars, IMO its nothing special, aside from the 4 rotor...

RM , how can you say "meh" ... the sliding injection bodies are a work of art :)
Mazda have the highest percentage of finishes of any team entered ( hmmm reminder to self, check Audi figures :) )
"unusual circumstances" is what Le Mans is about and especially in it's past it was the norm to see a team send out a "sprinter" to drag the competition into racing harder than they can survice for the second car in the "sprinter" team to run steady and win. Part of the tactical planning to win Le Mans imho :) Now computers have made it all boring :(

I think that pretty much everyone on this thread will know the following, but, just in case anyone stumbles upon this thread and likes random bits of le Mans info, here are some of the winning Le Mans cars from the past c.20 years:

1989 - Mercedes-Benz Sauber C9
1991 - Mazda 787B
1992 - Peugeot 905
1993 - Peugeot 905
1994 - Dauer/Porsche 962C
1999 - BMW V12 LMR
2003 - Bentley EXP Speed 8
2007 - Audi R10 TDi
2008 - Audi R10 TDi
2009 - Audi R10 TDi
2010 - Peugeot 908 HDi FAP

And some interesting top speed figures recorded for some selected Le Mans prototypes and Group C cars:

Mercedes-Benz Sauber C9 - 254 mph
Nissan R92CP - 249 mph
Porsche 917K - 248 mph
Jaguar XJR-12 - 245 mph
Bentley Speed 8 - 212 mph
BMW V12 LMR - 215 mph

Notice how the more modern LMP cars are far slower than the Group C prototypes. The Group C should never have been changed, it is the greatest form of racing car ever made. Stuff the Formula 1, Group C cars are the absolute pinnacle of speed perfection - to the point that, even now, around 20 years on, Stefan Bellof's Nurburgring record of 6:11 in his Porsche 956 Group C car has still not been beaten, not even by a fancy, modern, KERS enhanced F1 car.

[quote=KillKevsCorsas;949284]Mercedes-Benz Sauber C9 - 254 mph
Nissan R92CP - 249 mph
Porsche 917K - 248 mph
Jaguar XJR-12 - 245 mph
Bentley Speed 8 - 212 mph
BMW V12 LMR - 215 mph

Notice how the more modern LMP cars are far slower than the Group C prototypes. The Group C should never have been changed, it is the greatest form of racing car ever made. Stuff the Formula 1, Group C cars are the absolute pinnacle of speed perfection - to the point that, even now, around 20 years on, Stefan Bellof's Nurburgring record of 6:11 in his Porsche 956 Group C car has still not been beaten, not even by a fancy, modern, KERS enhanced F1 car.[/quote]

If those are the top speeds of the cars as recorded at Circuit de la Sarthe, then it must be known that chicanes were added on the main straight before the 1900 24 Hours of Le Mans to slow the cars down. Also, newer cars would probably have top speed as less of a design feature for Le Mans than their Group C ancestors as there are now chicanes, and top speed is not as crucial.

Concerning Bellof's record, yes, it is astonishing, but no one has really been given free reign to attempt to beat that record in a modern top flight race car.

Nick Heidfeld did some demonstration laps in 2007 at the Nordschleife in BMW's F1 car and did well considering he wasn't permitted to go for the record - in the 6 minute window as I recall. Some of BMW's engineers estimated that if the car was properly set up, Nick was well acquainted with the track, and conditions were good etc., that they coulda got a 5:45 (or around that) as I recall. That being said, the track configuration has changed a bit since Bellhof drove it. No less, the record could be beaten by an F1 car, or an LMP if the teams set their minds to it and someone was willing to pay the bills and risk their life and car doing it.

The main reason why that record hasn't been beaten is that no major racing series (VLN doesn't count) uses the Nordschleife because it's so dangerous. The big guns haven't raced there sine 1984. Another problem is with the track being so old and bumpy, current prototypes and open wheelers having such low ground clearance, that they have to jack up their ride height to race there even if they were attempting the time - tracks like the Nordschleife aren't designed for by designers anymore. Most tracks are now super smooth (or at least smooth compared to the 'Ring).

Do I have this right?

Yes, Kitdy. Comparing top speed & lap times this way is specious at best, and not just because the cars and tracks are configured differently. It shouldn't diminish the extraordinary performance of those great machines, but the argument is apples V. oranges. A more constructive comparo would involve measureable differences in aero, downforce, lateral grip, mass/hp, gearing/wheel size, etc., etc.

An interesting engineering exercise were all the data available.

[quote=csl177;949391]Yes, Kitdy. Comparing top speed & lap times this way is specious at best, and not just because the cars and tracks are configured differently. It shouldn't diminish the extraordinary performance of those great machines, but the argument is apples V. oranges. A more constructive comparo would involve measureable differences in aero, downforce, lateral grip, mass/hp, gearing/wheel size, etc., etc.

An interesting engineering exercise were all the data available.[/quote]
But then again no.
As the Le Mans regulation has been through a lot of changes the last 20 years, which makes it hard to compare the cars directly on specs.

ex. you can't compare the Sauber C11 with the Peugeot 905, as the 905 ran 3.5L regulation where as the C11 ran the old Group C regulation with restrictions.

It's the same today, as you can't compare the R15 with the R10 (if it wasn't for the 908 as a measuring point).

The Same in F1, where you can't compare the V10 cars with the V8's and the "Clean Aero" V8's

In motorsport it's hard to put forth hard data on improvement because of the continuing development of regulation.
All you can do is coming with good guesses, as of course, technology progresses.

Thanks Brix, you helped make my point even clearer. :)

The Laptime set by those 400+ kph Group C cars though, on a track without chicane, is still not that much faster than a modern car with chicane, lower top speed, and a twistier track....

Pole time in 1971: 3:13.9/250.06 km/h avg Porsche 917 LH(No Chicane, no Porsche Curves, no restrictor, different Dunlop Bridge section)
Pole time in 1989: 3:15.6/250.16 km/h avg Porsche 962C(No Chicane, no restrictor, different Dunlop bridge section, qualifying tire)*

Pole time in 1992: 3:21.2/243.32 km/h avg (3.5L formula, no restrictor, lighter min weight, Different Dunlop Bridge Section, qualifying tire)
Pole time in 2008: 3:18.5/247.16 km/h avg Peugeot 908

*Fastest lap avg speed wise ever at Le Mans.


Not to mention they broke the all time distance record(1971, 24 hrs avg speed @ 222.3 km/h) this year, for I believe all top 3 cars....(Winning car: #1 Audi, 225.2 km/h, over 24 hours, for reference, thats faster than the Dauer Porsche's fastest lap during qualifying in 1994). The current cars also do their qualifying run on race tire...its not unusual for Group C car to be much slower in the race, where as the Peugeot/Audi in the last 3 years been able to run withing 1% of their qualifying pace in their fastest race lap.

[quote=KillKevsCorsas;949284]1989 - Mercedes-Benz Sauber C9
1991 - Mazda 787B
1992 - Peugeot 905
1993 - Peugeot 905
1994 - Dauer/Porsche 962C
1999 - BMW V12 LMR
2003 - Bentley EXP Speed 8
2007 - Audi R10 TDi
2008 - Audi R10 TDi
2009 - Audi R10 TDi
2010 - Peugeot 908 HDi FAP[/quote]

2009 - Peugeot 908 HDi FAP
2010 - Audi R15 TDi Plus

;)

[quote=RacingManiac;949408]The Laptime set by those 400+ kph Group C cars though, on a track without chicane, is still not that much faster than a modern car with chicane, lower top speed, and a twistier track....

Pole time in 1971: 3:13.9/250.06 km/h avg Porsche 917 LH(No Chicane, no Porsche Curves, no restrictor, different Dunlop Bridge section)
Pole time in 1989: 3:15.6/250.16 km/h avg Porsche 962C(No Chicane, no restrictor, different Dunlop bridge section, qualifying tire)*

Pole time in 1992: 3:21.2/243.32 km/h avg (3.5L formula, no restrictor, lighter min weight, Different Dunlop Bridge Section, qualifying tire)
Pole time in 2008: 3:18.5/247.16 km/h avg Peugeot 908

*Fastest lap avg speed wise ever at Le Mans.


Not to mention they broke the all time distance record(1971, 24 hrs avg speed @ 222.3 km/h) this year, for I believe all top 3 cars....(Winning car: #1 Audi, 225.2 km/h, over 24 hours, for reference, thats faster than the Dauer Porsche's fastest lap during qualifying in 1994). The current cars also do their qualifying run on race tire...its not unusual for Group C car to be much slower in the race, where as the Peugeot/Audi in the last 3 years been able to run withing 1% of their qualifying pace in their fastest race lap.[/quote]
But from that you can still not make a prober comparison, as there is still regulation changes between 1971 and 1982, especially concerning safety.
La Sarthe has undergone small changes every single year, changes which can differ with 1-3 seconds a lap, a year.

The problem is simply that there is too many unknown factors which plays in when you compare lap times. Yes, you can see that some development has happened, but you can't say how much.

There is no way ever to truly compare the cars as they are all build for different versions of La Sarthe, under different regulations.