Car of the Year Awards 2008 [PLEASE READ FIRST]

[CENTER][CENTER][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=4][B]UCP Car of the Year Awards
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[FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2]I decided to change last year's formula, which was generally a mess more than anything else, to make it much more organized. I know not everybody will be pleased, but I'm giving my idea a try, and we can always change the formula next year anyway. I divided the Car of the Year award into two categories, mainly to give mass produced vehicles a chance. Last year most people voted for a supercar, I won't blame you, I did as well. However, I feel like great cars such as, say, the Ford Mondeo, the Subaru Legacy or the Fiat 500 deserve a chance to be nominated. The way it works this year is as follow: the two main categories are "Mass Market Car of the Year" and "High-end Car/Supercar of the Year". Now it was complicated to find a proper way to set boundaries between the two, very hard in fact. First I thought about using MSRP, aka under/above $100,000, but this way has flaws: a $80,000 Nissan GT-R is a supercar in its own rights and doesn't belong in the mass market category. Then I thought about power-to-weight ratio as it makes the most sense, but unfortunately this piece of information is not available in the UCP database, and I don't want people to have to look up all over the internet to find the info. Ultimately I decided I would split the two categories as follow: under/above 300 bhp. Now obviously this way has flaws as well, since horsepower is very subjective. For example, an Ariel Atom with a 245 bhp engine produces supercar-territory numbers. For this very reason I will have to allow exceptions, depending on performance numbers. Use your common sense as you nominate cars, please.

[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2]Moreover, the main two categories are split in 4 sub-categories. The reason is simple, there are too many cars nominated to do only one poll, which allows for a maximum of 15 entries. So I thought I would divide the car by territories. "Best American Car", "Best European Car", "Best Australian Car" and "Best Asian Car" are the sub-categories. The 3 cars that receive the most nominations in each sub-categories will make it to the final "Mass Market Car of the Year" and "High-end Car/Supercar of the Year" voting threads. That's 12 choices in each categories, which is under the 15 entries maximum limit for a poll. It allows me as well to enter 3 additional cars in case there are ties in the nomination threads, eliminating the need for run-off threads (providing there are no more than 3 ties, hopefully).

[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2]I will post the results of all of the awards in a thread when all the voting threads are closed, and whichever car has the most votes between "Mass Market Car of the Year" and "High-end Car/Supercar of the Year" will ultimately win the overall UCP Car of the Year title.

[U]Multiple nominations are allowed.[/U]

[B]RULES[/B]

[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2]Now this is subject to debate as well, but I had to set rules so here they are. Again, we can change them next year if they are widely criticized :)
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[LIST][*] [FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2]Nominated cars have to have been introduced at an auto show in 2008 and/or...
[/SIZE][/FONT][*] [FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2]...sold as a 2008 or 2009 model year (so if a car was introduced at an auto show in 2007 AND made it as a 2008MY production car, it can be nominated)[/SIZE][/FONT][*] [FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2]...be a production car, OR a concept car [U]INTENDED[/U] for production (confirmed, not based on rumours)[/SIZE][/FONT][/LIST]
[FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2][B]LINKS[/B]

[B]Nomination Threads
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[FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2][URL="http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/forum/awards/38077-best-european-mass-market-car-2008-a.html"]Best European Mass Market Car (2008)[/URL][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2][URL="http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/forum/awards/38078-best-asian-mass-market-car-2008-a.html"]Best Asian Mass Market Car (2008)[/URL]
[URL="http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/forum/awards/38079-best-american-mass-market-car-2008-a.html"]Best American Mass Market Car (2008)[/URL]
[URL="http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/forum/awards/38080-best-australian-mass-market-car-2008-a.html"]Best Australian Mass Market Car (2008)[/URL]

[URL="http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/forum/awards/38081-best-european-high-end-car-supercar-2008-a.html"]Best European High-end Car/Supercar (2008)[/URL]
[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2][URL="http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/forum/awards/38082-best-asian-high-end-car-supercar-2008-a.html"]Best Asian High-end Car/Supercar (2008)[/URL]
[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2][URL="http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/forum/awards/38083-best-american-high-end-car-supercar-2008-a.html"]Best American High-end Car/Supercar (2008)[/URL]
[URL="http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/forum/awards/38084-best-australian-high-end-car-supercar-2008-a.html"]Best Australian High-end Car/Supercar (2008)[/URL][/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2]I will add links to the voting threads here once they are up. [/SIZE][/FONT]

now to further clarify what does for instance
"european mass market" stand for.
Is it a car that is produced in Europe or a car available in Europe?

[quote=henk4;850552]now to further clarify what does for instance
"european mass market" stand for.
Is it a car that is produced in Europe or a car available in Europe?[/quote]
Made by a manufacturer whose origin is European.

Isn't it a bit overcomplicated?

[quote=Ferrer;850555]Isn't it a bit overcomplicated?[/quote]
At first, yes. But it's not that complicated when you think about it: "was the car available in 2008?", "does it produce above/under 300 bhp?" and "where does it come from?". 3 simple questions you have to ask yourself before nominating a car. Repeated a maximum of 8 times. Not exactly brain shattering.

Also, I wanted to make the awards look professional.

[QUOTE=fisetdavid26;850553]Made by a manufacturer whose origin is European.[/QUOTE]

In that case I propose that only European based members can enter the competition for European cars, and likewise American voters for american cars etc. In Europe we have very little exposure to American made cars, and the same is valid for European made cars in the USA. Nobody can say anything about Australian cars but Australians...(and some obscure export markets).

[quote=henk4;850558]In that case I propose that only European based members can enter the competition for European cars, and likewise American voters for american cars etc. In Europe we have very little exposure to American made cars, and the same is valid for European made cars in the USA. Nobody can say anything about Australian cars but Australians...(and some obscure export markets).[/quote]
Well you see, I thought about that as well. To be entirely honest I have been working on the COTY awards for a month now.

I do not think votes should be region-limited. If European members know best about European cars - as they should - they will nominate them and vote for them in the voting thread. Also, I would have to delete the Asian threads as there are not enough Asian members on the forums (no Japanese as far as I know - which is the biggest market by far).

The other point is, I don't know the Australian market too well, for example - and the obscure market your mentioned - and I am hoping to learn more about said markets, and hopefully other members will learn about them as well.

[QUOTE=fisetdavid26;850561]
I do not think votes should be region-limited. If European members know best about European cars - as they should - they will nominate them and vote for them in the voting thread. Also, I would have to delete the Asian threads as there are not enough Asian members on the forums (no Japanese as far as I know - which is the biggest market by far).
[/QUOTE]
Sure but if american members can nominate/vote there as well, I know what the result will be, as they are only exposed to German cars. And these cars will win, given the large amount of US members. Not that I am against German cars winning per se, but the vote will be rather biased.

[quote=henk4;850563]Sure but if american members can nominate/vote there as well, I know what the result will be, as they are only exposed to German cars. And these cars will win, given the large amount of US members. Not that I am against German cars winning per se, but the vote will be rather biased.[/quote]
Okay, good point, I will decide what's the ideal solution before posting up the voting threads, judging by the nominations.

EDIT: 5,000th post :p

You know my feelings about these awards - far, far too complicated & going to be a huge drain on your resources.

But I'll contribute with my 0.02c. Mostly because It's important that I do.

i should haev read these beforehand....

[quote=coolieman1220;850727]i should haev read these beforehand....[/quote]
Probably.

Haven't seen anything wrong with your submissions yet though.

[QUOTE=IBrake4Rainbows;850582]You know my feelings about these awards - far, far too complicated & going to be a huge drain on your resources.

But I'll contribute with my 0.02c. Mostly because It's important that I do.[/QUOTE]

It's not that much work. The worst part of the awards last year was setting up the main thread and hyperlinks to the 30 some-odd other threads that had nominations/final vote tallies. This format will work much better. Otherwise the GT-R would win COTY in a landslide.

[QUOTE=Rockefella;850867]It's not that much work. The worst part of the awards last year was setting up the main thread and hyperlinks to the 30 some-odd other threads that had nominations/final vote tallies. This format will work much better. Otherwise the GT-R would win COTY in a landslide.[/QUOTE]

I think the ZR1 would beat it.

[QUOTE=Quiggs;851538]I think the ZR1 would beat it.[/QUOTE]

I think it's between the two.

I frankly don't understand why people focus on performance only.

[QUOTE=Ferrer;851554]I frankly don't understand why people focus on performance only.[/QUOTE]

THey often do, but in this case, it is for SCOTY, and performance is critical in this aspect. However, neither of these cars performs best - what is so special about them is they are relative bargains and giant-killers - either can give cars multiple times their cost a run for their money.

It's not performance only at all - and frankly, the experts agree. We are also an enthusiast group that likes sports cars and I think it is quite evident that a supercar is gonna win this award not just a high-end car because we are skewed to these cars because they are exciting. Look at past UCPCOTY winners for example, the GT3, and the R8.

[QUOTE=Kitdy;851567]THey often do, but in this case, it is for SCOTY, and performance is critical in this aspect. However, neither of these cars performs best - what is so special about them is they are relative bargains and giant-killers - either can give cars multiple times their cost a run for their money.

It's not performance only at all - and frankly, the experts agree. We are also an enthusiast group that likes sports cars and I think it is quite evident that a supercar is gonna win this award not just a high-end car because we are skewed to these cars because they are exciting. Look at past UCPCOTY winners for example, the GT3, and the R8.[/QUOTE]
In my opinion a COTY (a general one as was being discussed) shouldn't be given to a car that only goes fast. That's what the Corvette does. It's not a remarkable car, it just emplys known receipes to achieve a good result, there's nothing special or innovative about it. And as a result it's not worth of general COTY award.

The Nissan on other hand does have a point. It's a technological showcase. A car that really shouldn't be running with the car it's been piched at. And it does that costing several times less than those cars. Even so, I doubt that many of the people who will vote for it will be able to see past the Nurburgring performance and will vote just because it's a [I]fast[/I] car.

My idea of a COTY is the Toyota iQ. This is a clever small city car, which seats four people in car that's barely longer than a Smart. It has good engines choices and a 6 speed gearbox which is rare at this price point. It also debuts a new type of rear windscreen airbag. That it a car that pushes the outside of the envelope and as a result it's worthy of a COTY award.

I also thing that partial COTYs (such as performance ones) are useless, but that I guess is due for another disucssion.

[QUOTE=Kitdy;851552]I think it's between the two.[/QUOTE]

You totally missed what I was getting at. :rolleyes:

[QUOTE=Ferrer;851617]In my opinion a COTY (a general one as was being discussed) shouldn't be given to a car that only goes fast. That's what the Corvette does. It's not a remarkable car, it just emplys known receipes to achieve a good result, there's nothing special or innovative about it. And as a result it's not worth of general COTY award.

The Nissan on other hand does have a point. It's a technological showcase. A car that really shouldn't be running with the car it's been piched at. And it does that costing several times less than those cars. Even so, I doubt that many of the people who will vote for it will be able to see past the Nurburgring performance and will vote just because it's a [I]fast[/I] car.

My idea of a COTY is the Toyota iQ. This is a clever small city car, which seats four people in car that's barely longer than a Smart. It has good engines choices and a 6 speed gearbox which is rare at this price point. It also debuts a new type of rear windscreen airbag. That it a car that pushes the outside of the envelope and as a result it's worthy of a COTY award.

I also thing that partial COTYs (such as performance ones) are useless, but that I guess is due for another disucssion.[/QUOTE]

The Corvette's amazingness comes from as I said it's relative low cost. I give more credence to the people of UCP than to think it will be purely 'ring times. You think that categorical COTYs are useless? I think that it's best to compare like cars in each category and then if anything put those into a category for best of the year. YOu could have entry level COTY, performance COTY, supercar COTY, luxury sedan COTY, etc etc. That'd also allow more winners and be more specific.

[QUOTE=Quiggs;851639]You totally missed what I was getting at. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

Ah I got ya now.

[QUOTE=Kitdy;851836]The Corvette's amazingness comes from as I said it's relative low cost. I give more credence to the people of UCP than to think it will be purely 'ring times. You think that categorical COTYs are useless? I think that it's best to compare like cars in each category and then if anything put those into a category for best of the year. YOu could have entry level COTY, performance COTY, supercar COTY, luxury sedan COTY, etc etc. That'd also allow more winners and be more specific.[/QUOTE]
But the Corvette costs little money because they use low cost components. Not because it's been cleverly engineered.

As for categorised COTYs I'm against them because making a car good in one aspect is (relatively) easy. However if a car wins a general COTY it should be good at more then one thing, which makes it a lot harder to design and engineer. In other words a COTY winner should've been a challenge for the people who worked on it. Also picking catgory winners and having them go all along for general award might also mean you left out cars that while weren't the [I]best[/I] in anything they were all rounders and a such deserve a chance.

[QUOTE=Ferrer;851842]But the Corvette costs little money because they use low cost components. Not because it's been cleverly engineered.

As for categorised COTYs I'm against them because making a car good in one aspect is (relatively) easy. However if a car wins a general COTY it should be good at more then one thing, which makes it a lot harder to design and engineer. In other words a COTY winner should've been a challenge for the people who worked on it. Also picking catgory winners and having them go all along for general award might also mean you left out cars that while weren't the [I]best[/I] in anything they were all rounders and a such deserve a chance.[/QUOTE]

That's fair but I don't think all-rounders would often make it - I think to be a contender typically you gotta be the best at what you do - and this doesn't mean an all-rounder can't win in it's class. In the performance category a GT could win for example. You can also create enough categories so that things are specified enough as to make sure that the cars are all quite similar and the "all-rounder" in each class is essentially non-existent. I also think it is much easier to compare like cars and thus having a SCOTY is easier to deduce than an overall COTY as the variance in all cars eligible for overall COTY cars is huge anhd comparing apples to oranges is harder than comparing apples to apples.

As for the Corvette, I don't really care how it got it's cheap cost - it got it, and it may be low cost parts, but those low cost parts run with high end parts in cars like the MC12 and Enzo and Koenigsegg and I would bet due to it's construction it is a fair bit more reliable but that is speculation at this point. No less, I think this is still an achievement and I don't even know why good engineering is necessary for car of the year - all that matters is that it is the best. There is beauty and intelligence to be found in simplicity. I bet there is some good engineering in the ZR1 for the car to use such "low cost components" to make it go so quick around the track. In but one example that you will surely loathe, I think it holds a higher skidpad rating than the Enzo. Anyways, even if the Corvette does not have clever engineering as you put it (I think it does - that engine is magic and so light) it has clever planning as it has proven to be a giant killer.

[QUOTE=Kitdy;851847] Anyways, even if the Corvette does not have clever engineering as you put it (I think it does - that engine is magic and so light) it has clever planning as it has proven to be a giant killer.[/QUOTE]
a giant named GM?;)
Fact is that the producer of the Corvette is on its knees, while the producers of the competing cars have been recording very reasonable profits....

Anyway, an allround COTY is very difficult to achieve. Since I took my driving lessons in one of the first ever European COTY, the Fiat 124, I have followed the selection and there have really been only two oddballs ever, the Mercedes 450SEL and the Porsche 928. Especially the latter choice was not very well received by the general public. All other cars have been reasonably middle of the road.
May be we have to judge cars along the objectives of the designers, whereby these objectives differ greatly for a Smart or a Koenigsegg.

[QUOTE=Kitdy;851847]That's fair but I don't think all-rounders would often make it - I think to be a contender typically you gotta be the best at what you do - and this doesn't mean an all-rounder can't win in it's class. In the performance category a GT could win for example. You can also create enough categories so that things are specified enough as to make sure that the cars are all quite similar and the "all-rounder" in each class is essentially non-existent. I also think it is much easier to compare like cars and thus having a SCOTY is easier to deduce than an overall COTY as the variance in all cars eligible for overall COTY cars is huge anhd comparing apples to oranges is harder than comparing apples to apples.[/QUOTE]
It's true that categorising makes picking candidates and winners much easier. It also allows some deserving cars to pass on the final vote because not only the most expensive and fast cars will be voted.

However I think that we as car enrhusiasts should be able to get past the initial blitz and spark of a very fast and expensive car and see the car industry as a whole. That has much to do with what Pieter said, the objectives of a Smart and Koenigsegg were different and I'm sure the constraints quite diverged too. Probably the Koenigsegg with all its hightechness was much [I]easier[/I] to make than the Smart.

I also like to point out that I personally think it's not the same liking a car and voting or nominating a car for a COTY award. There are plenty of cars that I like that I wouldn't nominate for a COTY and conversely some cars I don't really like that I would nominate or vote for.

Of course that doesn't mean that the emotional components should vanish completely from the decision when nominating or voting, but in my opinion they should play a small role, compared to the other reason already mentioned.
[QUOTE=Kitdy;851847]As for the Corvette, I don't really care how it got it's cheap cost - it got it, and it may be low cost parts, but those low cost parts run with high end parts in cars like the MC12 and Enzo and Koenigsegg and I would bet due to it's construction it is a fair bit more reliable but that is speculation at this point. No less, I think this is still an achievement and I don't even know why good engineering is necessary for car of the year - all that matters is that it is the best. There is beauty and intelligence to be found in simplicity. I bet there is some good engineering in the ZR1 for the car to use such "low cost components" to make it go so quick around the track. In but one example that you will surely loathe, I think it holds a higher skidpad rating than the Enzo. Anyways, even if the Corvette does not have clever engineering as you put it (I think it does - that engine is magic and so light) it has clever planning as it has proven to be a giant killer.[/QUOTE]
I never said the result wasn't good. But it's not really suprising. It has high power and relatively low weight and the suspension has been perfected for the past odd-40 years. And it also has massive sticky tires.

I comparatively find the Nissan GT-R much more impressive, a fat, [I]not that[/I] powerful 4 seater that can run with a focused 2 seater sportscar and several supercars. That's impressive in my books and worth it of nomination at least.

Again this doesn't mean I particularly like it, or that I don't like the Corvette. As I said before this shouldn't matter that much when choosing COTY candidates (and therefore potential winners).

[QUOTE=henk4;851850]a giant named GM?;)
Fact is that the producer of the Corvette is on its knees, while the producers of the competing cars have been recording very reasonable profits....[/QUOTE]

Touche, but as you know GM has never been in the business of producing supercars and I use "giant-killer" in that sense (which I think you also knew) - tackling the Italians and Germans in particular who have long been the best supercar makers. And the state of GM does not matter as to how good the car is.

I looked at the history of the European Car of the Year and they pretty much as I recall always seem to pick a "basic" car - you know, just your average bread and butter except for the 2 you mentioned. Are they biased in favour of the common car?

[QUOTE=Kitdy;851863]
I looked at the history of the European Car of the Year and they pretty much as I recall always seem to pick a "basic" car - you know, just your average bread and butter except for the 2 you mentioned. Are they biased in favour of the common car?[/QUOTE]
The European COTY system is part of the automotive industry (which of course they will vehemently deny) and therefore they look at a car that has the potential to sell well, which given the division of income also in Europe is a "common" car.

[QUOTE=henk4;851865]The European COTY system is part of the automotive industry (which of course they will vehemently deny) and therefore they look at a car that has the potential to sell well, which given the division of income also in Europe is a "common" car.[/QUOTE]

If you are saying that the European COTY awards are being influenced by bribery of the industry then are they not completely useless and unreliable?

[QUOTE=Kitdy;851874]If you are saying that the European COTY awards are being influenced by bribery of the industry then are they not completely useless and unreliable?[/QUOTE]
Auto journos select, auto journos are not independent, certainly not those who are linked with mass (in relative terms) publications.
Mass publications are depending on the producers for their stuff. Really critical reviews are rare. The efforts of some German journos to put the Dacia Logan in a bad light by subjecting it to the elk test with wrong tyre pressures is a point in case. They would never have done that with a VAG product.

I have noticed that in most reviews I read they are rarely savage either - they seem to go easy on practically everything whereas someone like Clarkson will savage things but is unreliable. So I guess both entertainment and "factual" sources are unreliable and tainted.

[QUOTE=Kitdy;851945]I have noticed that in most reviews I read they are rarely savage either - they seem to go easy on practically everything whereas someone like Clarkson will savage things but is unreliable. So I guess both entertainment and "factual" sources are unreliable and tainted.[/QUOTE]
The best thing you can do is try cars yourself. :)

[QUOTE=Ferrer;851962]The best thing you can do is try cars yourself. :)[/QUOTE]

I actually had something to that effect written in the above post but deleted it. However, I am not in the market for a new car and I look too young and am not bold enough to test drive cars.

That's what family and friends are there for... ;)

[QUOTE=Kitdy;851965]I actually had something to that effect written in the above post but deleted it. However, I am not in the market for a new car and I look too young and am not bold enough to test drive cars.[/QUOTE]

Wait, seriously? How old are you? I'm 26 and I've test driven some pretty nice cars, even after driving up in my Jeep (a real 4x4, chipped paint, crooked fenders, etc.) Although I have noticed I get better results with my dad's truck than my Jeep.

[QUOTE=Ferrer;851977]That's what family and friends are there for... ;)[/QUOTE]

Yeah I did get to drive that 325 Ci that my friend's dad had as I've alluded to and backed up his C5... I bet he'd let her boyfriend drive it (he's also my friend) if he wanted and I'd absolutely love to drive it but there's no way I am gonna ask to. The only other cars that are sorta neat I'd want to drive are my buddy's parent's RLs and a family friend's 360 '70 Dart. I drove my buddy's Crown Vic for a bit which was a blast but I never drove his Brougham for some reason - he sold it before I ever did. Actually, another friend's Dad has an Midget and another friend's dad has a Triumph TR5 and GT(?) and I got a ride in the TR5. So I guess there is some potential there for me.

[QUOTE=wwgkd;851981]Wait, seriously? How old are you? I'm 26 and I've test driven some pretty nice cars, even after driving up in my Jeep (a real 4x4, chipped paint, crooked fenders, etc.) Although I have noticed I get better results with my dad's truck than my Jeep.[/QUOTE]

I am not 26 but younger than you but I could pass for 16 or 17 probably especially clean shaven. I think I'd feel more confident when done university or in grad school or whatever when I am actually somewhat respectable from a professional standpoint and I suppose I could try to use the geezer's TL to drive up.