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[QUOTE=McReis]One thing has nothing to do with the other. A revvy engine isn't necessarily dead in low revs. My car has enough low end grunt for every urban situation but still has a high-revving character.
[/quote]
Sure, but from my experiences Honda I4s basically make negitive torque at low RPMs.
[quote]
I'm not saying you have a wrong opinion. It's just unusual for someone who loves cars and driving. You'd love to have a german TDI engined car then. It can be violent on lower revs and keeps flat all through the rev-band.[/QUOTE]
I love to drive in the high RPMs, but when the time comes, I want power anywhere on the tach.
Any of the TDI cars come with RWD?
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[QUOTE=SLoppYJeeP]Ill agree that OVH engines are perfect for diesel and low rpm applications, theres no argument there, The point is the high rpm power of honda engines. Sure a V8 puts out a hefty amount of torque, but the sound and feel of a honda engine screaming at close to 8000 rpm simply can't be beat.
[/quote]
The sound of a Honda I4 at any RPM is pretty much like a weedwaker on steroids. Its annoying if anything.
The S2000 is one of the better sounding I4s, but that isnt saying much. The feel isnt anything different than any other economy car, except the fact it only moves above 6000PRMs.
This is a nice sounding 4 banger:
[url]http://videos.streetfire.net/category/WRX/0/22EF8E1C-EDC4-43F9-8404-8C516EB6F079.htm[/url]
Notice the gurgle and no farty/buzzy noises?
[quote]
And to refocus the argument on honda, if you compared the honda civic or rsx with a more appropriate model then the corvette, say the new cobalt, the honda is still a better made, faster, and better handleing car. (Even with DOHC technology, the cobalt cant rev as high as the honda, and requires forced induction to mactch its horsepower).
[/quote]
Can you say ricer argument?
No ones comparing a Corvette to anything, comparing [I]engines[/I](which are found in more than just the vette) are not comparing cars.
From what Ive seen the Cobalt SS will hold its own handling wise.
And who said chevy wanted to make the Cobalt's I4 high revving?
It uses forced induction for the POWERBAND, something Hondafanboys seem to ignore. I MUCH rather have the supercharged ecotech than a peaky Honda I4. (although on paper the Honda may seem "more high tech.")
[quote]
The fact that you even mention the econo-box honda in the same post as dedicated v-8 engine sports cars is a destimate to the success of the honda car, a car that can get you from point A to B safely, efficiently, and comfortly, but still have some get up and go when you need it.[/QUOTE]
Hondas F20 isnt exactly an economy 4 cylinder.
And 16-17 second 1/4 mile times are about as much "get up and go" as your every day minivan, truck or SUV...
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[QUOTE=Slicks]Sure, but from my experiences Honda I4s basically make negitive torque at low RPMs.
I love to drive in the high RPMs, but when the time comes, I want power anywhere on the tach.
Any of the TDI cars come with RWD?[/QUOTE]
all BMWs
All Mercedes
The Jaguar s-type and XJ
the Audi R10:D
and of course all these engines are DOHC 4-valves and don't rev higher than 5000......
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where's the logic in comparing a v8 that puts out 400 hp to an I4 that does 240 ?? they arnt made to be used in the same type of vehicle or the same class
with your logic it'd make sense to compare a 650cc dirt bike engine with the friggin 16 litre bugatti quad turbo, cuz you're "just comparing engines"
there's nothing about vtec that gives LOW torque at low rpms, it gives the same amount of torque at a given rpm as any other engine of the same size that;s naturally aspirated, and much higher power with more radical cam grinds at the top end, that's what vtec was made for, period.
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[quote=Slicks]Can you say ricer argument?[/quote]
Well you brought in the old "weed whacker" nonsense !!
I think someone on UCP in a post said about seeing the other side ?? :D
Returning to the THREAD ......
Honda excel at picking the right solution for the market, be that I4, V8 or diesel :D
You wont' go wrong chosing one !!!
oh and just for Slick .... in the years that Honda raced the NSX and the Corvettes were at Le Mans .... GUESS WHICH CAR FINISHED AHEAD :D
( and the FIRST year the NSX was beaten by the Alpine A610 !!! )
-
another RWD TDI: The Chrysler 300 CRD....(sorry for forgetting that). May be GM needs to be taken over by BMW before they really start using diesel engines....
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[QUOTE=Matra et Alpine]oh, dear. We had egg on your face over that kidn of comment in teh past Slicks.
My inputs ARE based on actual first hand ( and occasiaonlly secodn hand form others in club and paddock ).
And to call it "crap" is makign YOU look as stupid as Guibo.
Mine are FACTS. Guibo hasn't a clue abotu what he's reading OR what he's talking abotu throttle control. Reading it in mags is not the same as taking Dingle Dell in a powerful rear engined car adn usgin the throttle to steer it ( and no NOT the stupid "drift" clown stuff ... THAT is easy to look good, we're talkign begin FAST )[/quote]
Egg in my face? You mean when you blocked me because you hate being wrong in any situation?
Comparing me to Guibo is a complement, thank you.
This is coming from someone who daily drives a car with 375ft.lbs on tap, get off the throttle, its not that hard! Certainly my car isnt the easiest to control, but I can throttle steer in the rain pretty easily, you need to have some self control. Im sure the car you were driving was more prepped for the track than mine.
[quote]
Ah so like Guibo, NOT reading. You'll notice that I definately give the LS1 the hands up on those last three itmes ( go back and READ rather than knee-jerk :) ) ZING !!!!!
I only pointed out that the LS1 ins't the SMALLEST :D
Shame you got your knickers in a twist by believing the lies (marketing twist) of Chevrolet that it HAS to be the best everythign because it has a flag on it :( ( So DO you think it won Le Mans ???? :D )
[/quote]
I dont believe Chevy has to be good at anything, they suck at most things but can build one hell of a sports car. But I do believe in FACTS.
About LeMans, I wouldnt know, I dont watch.
[quote]
Sorry, but as was first posted the Powertec !!
man, this is too painful to type, ROFLMA :S
[/quote]
I love how you back your claim with dimentions...
Just looking at the Powertec in the pictures compared to people it seems like if it were smaller, it wouldnt be by very much...
[url]http://www.radicalextremesportscars.com/news_folder/v8_sheruns/index.php[/url]
[quote]
erm, well if you KNOW anyone who types and thinks like that then I hasten to point that that's not "my clan".
The guys I talk about are on the tracks weekly around the UK and Euroep and on the rally stages. Getting the best all round performance is CRUCIAL to us.
What a silly comment THAT was , wasn't it Slicks .. given that you KNOW my history from previous exchanges !!![/quote]
Yes because track racing is the only kind of driving ever.
[quote]
oh,m dear, now THAT one was done to death a LONG time ago and PROVEN that other solutions actually had a wider usable power band :) Proven from facts, figures and charts and NOT the ramblings of an over-ejaculated mag reader !!!
BUT I concur that I'd also rather have 3,000 band of revs of usable power than 2,000.
But that's not the reality :D It's NOT jsut 6000-8000 and I'm NOT going into it again, you can go read throught the DOZENS of posts where I clarfied that with facts.
[/quote]
Yeeeeahhh, we did go over this, and it turns out I was right(LS6 vs elise engine, right?). Using the (wrong) formula you gave me came up with different resaults. I can bring it up for you to jog your memory.
[quote]
PS: What cars are you driving that have turbo-lag ? They dont' exist outside of the lunatic STIKKAS fanatics !!! That's a 1980s problem ...... well over here it is, maybe your favourite manufacturer has still to catch up on teh technology :D[/quote]
Drove a WRX that litterally didnt move untill about 2500RPMs when the turbo spooled. What about aftermarket turbos, ever think of that? Bigger the turbo the more the lag, you know that.
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[quote=Slicks]Egg in my face? You mean when you blocked me because you hate being wrong in any situation?[/quote]
No,because YOU didnt' like what you heard and twisted every way you coudl to avoid it :D
The facts are there, everyoen read it.
[quote]Comparing me to Guibo is a complement, thank you.
This is coming from someone who daily drives a car with 375ft.lbs on tap, get off the throttle, its not that hard![/quote]
The comments were abgout using it on the limit.
I can drive the A610 like a pussy cat too.
But REALLY DRIVING it highlights the issues.
ANDN hten throttle control ON THE LIMIT was the poitn raised and pointed out.
Using your logic your commetns abtou "weed whackers" is stupid as you coudl always dri e it below 6,000 revs.
[quote]But I do believe in FACTS.
About LeMans, I wouldnt know, I dont watch.[/quote]
Avoidde THAT fact pretty quickly because it upsets the fantasy for you ?
Shamre really, being HONEST is the best policy and avoids fanboyisms :D
[quote]I love how you back your claim with dimentions...
Just looking at the Powertec in the pictures compared to people it seems like if it were smaller, it wouldnt be by very much...
[URL="http://www.radicalextremesportscars.com/news_folder/v8_sheruns/index.php"]http://www.radicalextremesportscars.com/news_folder/v8_sheruns/index.php[/URL]
[/quote]
Oooooooh, more EGG ON THE FACE>
I posted them for you in the A11 Powertec thread ( as it made more sense for it to be there than in a HONDA THREAD !!!!!
Jsut like smacking gums about the LS1 :D
FFS, take it somewhere else Slicks :(
[quote]Yeeeeahhh, we did go over this, and it turns out I was right(LS6 vs elise engine, right?). Using the (wrong) formula you gave me came up with different resaults. I can bring it up for you to jog your memory.[/quote]
erm, You are in serious deniual.
You didnt' want to accept a 10% range on flat ( after all NOTHIGN is perfectly flat )
You refused to accept that.
THAT was why I stopped listending and frankly if you are STILL gonna bring up that BS line again then I'm getting ever MORE annoyed that Wouter removed that option !!!
So drop it acn get back to Honda.
[quote]Drove a WRX that litterally didnt move untill about 2500RPMs when the turbo spooled. What about aftermarket turbos, ever think of that? Bigger the turbo the more the lag, you know that.[/quote]
Well on the last point, we already covered that in my comment .... fanboys of rice WILL do silly things ..... just like fanboys of cubic inches :D
Yep and so the problem YOU have with the WRX is you dont' know how to drive it.
Yes you pull away at 2000 revs and then rev it out to 8000 .... that's 6,000 revs of usuable power isn't it ? So you like to pull from 1000 in a vette and pull it out to 6000 ..... still struggling with the whoel concept of USABLE POWER RANGE and stopping your bias affecting the using revs.
Be honest abotu that, you dont' liek revving an engine .. it's that simple.
I dont' have a problem using a torquey engien or a revvy engine.
You are limiting your mind :(
So take it to another thread or make comments ABOUT HONDA. FFS :(
-
I have to agree that the I4 VTEC engines sound bloody awful at 8000rpm, although I think its the exhaust thats the problem. A chavtastic civic with a "sports" exhaust sounded like it was going to tear the earth in two when it hit 8000rpm but he was in first and ended up looking stupid. 20 mph.
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[QUOTE=Matra et Alpine]No,because YOU didnt' like what you heard and twisted every way you coudl to avoid it :D
The facts are there, everyoen read it.
[/quote]
Riiiight, so you blocked me?
[quote]
The comments were abgout using it on the limit.
I can drive the A610 like a pussy cat too.
But REALLY DRIVING it highlights the issues.
ANDN hten throttle control ON THE LIMIT was the poitn raised and pointed out.[/quote]
Obveoulsy you want to control the car, that means you might not be driving at the limit.
[quote]
Using your logic your commetns abtou "weed whackers" is stupid as you coudl always dri e it below 6,000 revs.
[/quote]
I said it sounded like a weedwaker at any RPM.
And your not going to be getting anywere fast under 6000RPMs (not like you would be getting anywere fast anyway :p )
[quote]
Avoidde THAT fact pretty quickly because it upsets the fantasy for you ?
Shamre really, being HONEST is the best policy and avoids fanboyisms :D
[/quote]
What fact? The LeMans? How am I going to comment on something that dont know about. Im not the one that brought up LeMans in that rotary vs LS2 thread (if thats where you got the idea).
[quote]
Oooooooh, more EGG ON THE FACE>
I posted them for you in the A11 Powertec thread ( as it made more sense for it to be there than in a HONDA THREAD !!!!!
Jsut like smacking gums about the LS1 :D
FFS, take it somewhere else Slicks :(
[/quote]
Uhhh... what powertec thread are you talking about?
[quote]
erm, You are in serious deniual.
You didnt' want to accept a 10% range on flat ( after all NOTHIGN is perfectly flat )
You refused to accept that.
THAT was why I stopped listending and frankly if you are STILL gonna bring up that BS line again then I'm getting ever MORE annoyed that Wouter removed that option !!!
So drop it acn get back to Honda.[/quote]
Thats because I mistakenly used the hp curve, and not the torque curve (whos falt that was, I dont remember). Using the torque curve like originally intended the LS6 came out on top.
[quote]
Well on the last point, we already covered that in my comment .... fanboys of rice WILL do silly things ..... just like fanboys of cubic inches :D
Yep and so the problem YOU have with the WRX is you dont' know how to drive it.[/quote]
huh? That was a stock (02?) WRX. Theres no "not knowing how to drive it." The FACT of the matter is the car doesnt go until the turbo spools, just showing you that cars DO have turbo lag nowadays.
And instead of revving it high, popping the clutch (and damaging the tranny) I rather go from a roll...
[quote]
Yes you pull away at 2[B]5[/B]00 revs and then rev it out to 8000 .... that's 6,000 revs of usuable power isn't it ?
[/quote]
8000??????
Try 7000RPMs, and the car really didnt start to pick up until 3500RPMs.
[quote]
So you like to pull from 1000 in a vette and pull it out to 6000 ..... still struggling with the whoel concept of USABLE POWER RANGE and stopping your bias affecting the using revs.[/quote]
Of course, idle to redline isnt usable, because it doesnt favor your high revving nature right?
[quote]
Be honest abotu that, you dont' liek revving an engine .. it's that simple.
I dont' have a problem using a torquey engien or a revvy engine.
You are limiting your mind :(
[/quote]
We've been over this, I dont like a [I]peaky engine[/I], I much PREFER one thats not.
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[quote=Slicks]Of course, idle to redline isnt usable, because it doesnt favor your high revving nature right?
We've been over this, I dont like a [I]peaky engine[/I], I much PREFER one thats not.[/quote]
I think you MEAN you don't liek revvy engines ?
Low revving engines can be peaky and high revving engines can be smooth.
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Theres a trade off here thats made in engines. An engine tuned for low end torque is going to lose horsepower at higher RPMs, while an engine tuned for high rpm power is going to lack low speed torque. The usual method of overcoming this is the use of big displacement engines (v8) to provide enough grunt at low rpms and still pull hard up high. The fact that honda replaced this thinking with VTEC is a testimate to their enginuity and dedication to produce the best product possible.
Also, ALL CARS ARE LOUD. The sooner you realise this, the sooner you can get over hondas with loud exausts. a V8 with a free-flowing exaust will be just as loud, if not louder, then a honda with one, the ear splitting noice these engines make is the fault of the owner, not the engine.
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[QUOTE=henk4]all BMWs
All Mercedes
The Jaguar s-type and XJ
the Audi R10:D
and of course all these engines are DOHC 4-valves and don't rev higher than 5000......
another RWD TDI: The Chrysler 300 CRD....(sorry for forgetting that). May be GM needs to be taken over by BMW before they really start using diesel engines..
[/QUOTE]
Should've rephrased that...
Any other diesels that are RWD and sold in America?
BTW I thought "TDI" was VW specific?
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[QUOTE=Matra et Alpine]I think you MEAN you don't liek revvy engines ?
Low revving engines can be peaky and high revving engines can be smooth.[/QUOTE]
I dont like peaky engines. Got it?
You could call the LS7 "revvy" with its 7000RPM redline, but it certainly isnt peaky.
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[QUOTE=SLoppYJeeP]Theres a trade off here thats made in engines. An engine tuned for low end torque is going to lose horsepower at higher RPMs, while an engine tuned for high rpm power is going to lack low speed torque. The usual method of overcoming this is the use of big displacement engines (v8) to provide enough grunt at low rpms and still pull hard up high. The fact that honda replaced this thinking with VTEC is a testimate to their enginuity and dedication to produce the best product possible.
Also, ALL CARS ARE LOUD. The sooner you realise this, the sooner you can get over hondas with loud exausts. a V8 with a free-flowing exaust will be just as loud, if not louder, then a honda with one, the ear splitting noice these engines make is the fault of the owner, not the engine.[/QUOTE]
Uhh, youve got some things mixed up. VTEC engines STILL lack lack end torque. Plain and simple VTEC as a "performance enhancer" is just marketing. In it self its genious because of the fact that it worked(the marketing), all the kids are running around wanting little economy cars with VTEC because its "so advanced."
And Im NOT talking about loudness of the engine. Did you even watch the video I posted? It has nothing to do with loudness, but rather SOUND.
Listen to this:
[url]http://videos.streetfire.net/Player.aspx?fileid=EA7F8ACE-2007-4180-92E0-EFDCDED237E9&p=0[/url]
Its loud, and it sounds AMAZING.
Now listen to this:
[url]http://videos.streetfire.net/category/Honda/17/745A4AFD-3DCA-4401-B63C-42350950BDFF.htm[/url]
I could have recorded that with my weedwaker and no one would know the difference.
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[QUOTE=zeta] they dominate that Indy racing league, [/QUOTE]
umm i like Honda but i gotta add somthing, as of now they are the only manufacturer in that league :D
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[QUOTE=Slicks]Uhh, youve got some things mixed up. VTEC engines STILL lack lack end torque. Plain and simple VTEC as a "performance enhancer" is just marketing. In it self its genious because of the fact that it worked(the marketing), all the kids are running around wanting little economy cars with VTEC because its "so advanced."
And Im NOT talking about loudness of the engine. Did you even watch the video I posted? It has nothing to do with loudness, but rather SOUND.
Listen to this:
[url]http://videos.streetfire.net/Player.aspx?fileid=EA7F8ACE-2007-4180-92E0-EFDCDED237E9&p=0[/url]
Its loud, and it sounds AMAZING.
Now listen to this:
[url]http://videos.streetfire.net/category/Honda/17/745A4AFD-3DCA-4401-B63C-42350950BDFF.htm[/url]
I could have recorded that with my weedwaker and no one would know the difference.[/QUOTE] oh no before i watch these vids there either drag racing, street racing or burnouts in a parking lot right?
EDIT: haha a driveway (my friend is always on that site:rolleyes: )
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Acctually...Im afriad Slicks that you couldn't be more wrong if you tried. The VTEC system is NOT a marketing joke, it is acctually a very complicated system that imploys a 3rd cam with a high rpm profile. This allows the normal cam shafts to be tuned for acceptable low and midrange power and partial throttle fuel saving. I say "acceptable" because this is a 2.0 (give or take) liter engine we are talking about, and the torque gains are going to be relative to its displacement. (Read: VTEC wont make up for the extra 3.0 litres a large v8 has, BUT, it will boost performance signifigantly over other 2.0 liter engines). This torque allows a honda engine to be used with out reving it to its limits, it has plenty of torque to pull around town at low rmps. The VTEC system accomplishes this by adjusting the opening/closing times of the valves, even allowing the valves to open seperatly or not at all to promote an efficent swirling of the gas and O2 mixture. At high rpms, the system kicks in the all out high cam profile for high rpm power. beat that!
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[QUOTE=Slicks]Should've rephrased that...
Any other diesels that are RWD and sold in America?
BTW I thought "TDI" was VW specific?[/QUOTE]
Like GTI?
No, they used that acronym, Mercedes uses CDI, PSA/Ford uses HDI or TDCI, and BMW simply "d". The only difference between the VW engines and the rest is that all use a common rail injection system, while VW is using a pump nozzle system for the time being. However they have annouced that they will also switch to Common Rail, as it is more easier to control in terms of noise and emissions.
The Mercedes 320 CDI is sold in the USA. You can find a nice story on their websites about a distance record that 3 of those cars set in May 2005, somewhere on a track in the States, averaging about 225 kph to be followed by a 1000 km trip (one fuelload) to somewhere in Florida, averaging about 40 mpg.
If you (the USA) would be ready for it you could get the BMW, Mercedes and Audi V8s with mindboggling amounts of torque, which would be exactly what you describe as being your ideal engine. Prejudice about diesel engines in your country is still preventing that happening.
BTW Honda has developed its own 2.2 litre CRDi engine, which has got a good reputation too.
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[QUOTE=SLoppYJeeP]Acctually...Im afriad Slicks that you couldn't be more wrong if you tried. The VTEC system is NOT a marketing joke, it is acctually a very complicated system that imploys a 3rd cam with a high rpm profile. This allows the normal cam shafts to be tuned for acceptable low and midrange power and partial throttle fuel saving. I say "acceptable" because this is a 2.0 (give or take) liter engine we are talking about, and the torque gains are going to be relative to its displacement. (Read: VTEC wont make up for the extra 3.0 litres a large v8 has, BUT, it will boost performance signifigantly over other 2.0 liter engines). This torque allows a honda engine to be used with out reving it to its limits, it has plenty of torque to pull around town at low rmps. The VTEC system accomplishes this by adjusting the opening/closing times of the valves, even allowing the valves to open seperatly or not at all to promote an efficent swirling of the gas and O2 mixture. At high rpms, the system kicks in the all out high cam profile for high rpm power. beat that![/QUOTE]
I know what VTEC is an how it works.
Ive driven a few Honda I4 VTECs have you? And more importantly, if you have, have you driven anything else?
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[QUOTE=henk4]Like GTI?
No, they used that acronym, Mercedes uses CDI, PSA/Ford uses HDI or TDCI, and BMW simply "d". The only difference between the VW engines and the rest is that all use a common rail injection system, while VW is using a pump nozzle system for the time being. However they have annouced that they will also switch to Common Rail, as it is more easier to control in terms of noise and emissions.
[/quote]
Ahhh, I see.
[quote]
If you (the USA) would be ready for it you could get the BMW, Mercedes and Audi V8s with mindboggling amounts of torque, which would be exactly what you describe as being your ideal engine. Prejudice about diesel engines in your country is still preventing that happening.[/quote]
Isnt our diesel gas not up to "par" with what Europe has though?
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[QUOTE=Slicks]Ahhh, I see.
Isnt our diesel gas not up to "par" with what Europe has though?[/QUOTE]
apparently from what I heard, desulpherized and cleaner diesel will be available soon over there. Again this is a matter of perception, or "chicken and egg". As long as Americans associate diesel engines with "dirty and loud" there will be no real demand for them and the oil companies will not make the investments necessary to produce the right stuff from their refineries (which are very much geared to producing gasoline in the first place)
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[QUOTE=Matra et Alpine]What ?
That has NOTHING to do with the valve drive technology :D
That's to do with CAPACITY and gearbox. NOTHING to do with vlave drivetrain per-se.
COMPRESSION ratio is the major variable that affects SFC.
Power delivery low down for trucks is spot on, needs LOTS of torque to move heavy weight easily.
But once it's into a car the advantage isnt' as clear.
OHCs in trucks will come into it's own now that better emissions are requred and more complex and variable timing is needed. Doing that in the head is "easier" -- because the in-block space for a cam is limited.
And if you want GOOD SFC as the prime choice, then go turbo-diesel :D[/QUOTE]
My point was not to disagree with you but rather, expand on the issue of push-rods.
Once again, diesel in daily cars over here makes little sense. Its far too sulphurous and dirty.
I think i started riots on UCP.
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[QUOTE=Matra et Alpine]I think you MEAN you don't liek revvy engines ?
Low revving engines can be peaky and high revving engines can be smooth.[/QUOTE]
Rather, its mostly the opposite. S2000s feel like lawn movers below 4000rpm and suddenly become a F1 car over that limit. Several other like Pontiac Lemans , which i had,(also a I4) have redline of 6500rpm and yet never feel as if they are struggling.
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[QUOTE=KnifeEdge_2K1]where's the logic in comparing a v8 that puts out 400 hp to an I4 that does 240 ?? they arnt made to be used in the same type of vehicle or the same class
with your logic it'd make sense to compare a 650cc dirt bike engine with the friggin 16 litre bugatti quad turbo, cuz you're "just comparing engines"
there's nothing about vtec that gives LOW torque at low rpms, it gives the same amount of torque at a given rpm as any other engine of the same size that;s naturally aspirated, and much higher power with more radical cam grinds at the top end, that's what vtec was made for, period.[/QUOTE]
We compared them because of push-rod vs DohC. No one's compared 'vette vs civic.
Some how, push-rods never feel 'weak' at low rpm, quite unlike some other Sohc, dohc.
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[QUOTE=sunk]
Once again, diesel in daily cars over here makes little sense. Its far too sulphurous and dirty.
I think i started riots on UCP.[/QUOTE]
you should start riots in the USA just to make cleaner diesel available.....
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[QUOTE=henk4]you should start riots in the USA just to make cleaner diesel available.....[/QUOTE]
Not expected from you, henk.:p
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[quote=sunk]We compared them because of push-rod vs DohC. No one's compared 'vette vs civic.
Some how, push-rods never feel 'weak' at low rpm, quite unlike some other Sohc, dohc.[/quote]
That's got NOTHING to do with SOHC/DOHC.
Try driving a large capaciy V8 with OHC and you'll see.
Long stroke engines provide strength at low revs.
That's it.
Logn stroke and small capaciy isn't ideal as the piston speed limits the top end revs and power.
SO long stroke engines are large bore engines are large capacity engines.
NOTHIGN to do with where the cam lives .... that's only a cost issue.
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[quote=Slicks]I dont like peaky engines. Got it?
You could call the LS7 "revvy" with its 7000RPM redline, but it certainly isnt peaky.[/quote]]SO why the "weed whaker" nonsense ?
THAT's revline ... I was just taking what you repeat continuously about revving hard.
Sounds like you dont' like peaky OR revvy :D
Dont' know ANYONE who likes peaky and having competed in a tuned Imp I can assure you you haven't even been NEAR peaky till you try a Coventry Climax tuned out to it's max on twin Webers :(
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[QUOTE=Matra et Alpine]That's got NOTHING to do with SOHC/DOHC.
Try driving a large capaciy V8 with OHC and you'll see.
Long stroke engines provide strength at low revs.
That's it.
Logn stroke and small capaciy isn't ideal as the piston speed limits the top end revs and power.
SO long stroke engines are large bore engines are large capacity engines.
NOTHIGN to do with where the cam lives .... that's only a cost issue.[/QUOTE]
may somebody should try the old in-line 6 DOHC Jaguar engine, with 106 mm stroke:)
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[QUOTE=sunk]We compared them because of push-rod vs DohC. No one's compared 'vette vs civic.
Some how, push-rods never feel 'weak' at low rpm, quite unlike some other Sohc, dohc.[/QUOTE] 1.3 litre auto escort( tappets and pushrods,) any small capacity engine wont have the torque of a 6 litre OHV V8. The LS1 here in australia with a 6 speed manual cant go up a slight rise in top because of the rediculous overdriven gears( for fuel economy) because at 110km/h its ticking over at 1500 revs, where its useable torque doesnt happen until 2500rpm. It requires 1 or 2 down changes when overtaking on the highway.Also speaking of diesel all the heavy haulage diesels cummins,detroit etc with 14 litre capacities all run ohc now, you certainly wouldnt call the weak with 1650ft/lb of torque at 1200 rpm
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[QUOTE=charged]1.3 litre auto escort( tappets and pushrods,) any small capacity engine wont have the torque of a 6 litre OHV V8. The LS1 here in australia with a 6 speed manual cant go up a slight rise in top because of the rediculous overdriven gears( for fuel economy) because at 110km/h its ticking over at 1500 revs, where its useable torque doesnt happen until 2500rpm. It requires 1 or 2 down changes when overtaking on the highway.Also speaking of diesel all the heavy haulage diesels cummins,detroit etc with 14 litre capacities all run ohc now, you certainly wouldnt call the weak with 1650ft/lb of torque at 1200 rpm[/QUOTE]
You got a point there, but we talking only about cars, pick-up trucks. Frankly, in heavy vehicles turbodiesels are the only option.
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I have one more question : Why does Honda continue with vtechs when other western manufacturers have shunned it because of limited valve architecture/upgrades ? And why doesn't Honda use it in their Indycars or F1 cars. So much for torquey v-techs.
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[QUOTE=sunk]I have one more question : Why does Honda continue with vtechs when other western manufacturers have shunned it because of limited valve architecture/upgrades ? And why doesn't Honda use it in their Indycars or F1 cars. So much for torquey v-techs.[/QUOTE]
does Toyota not use it in their VVTI engines? or BMW but calls it valvetronic? and the Porsche system? (Question marks are there because I really don't know)
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[quote=sunk]I have one more question : Why does Honda continue with vtechs when other western manufacturers have shunned it because of limited valve architecture/upgrades ? And why doesn't Honda use it in their Indycars or F1 cars. So much for torquey v-techs.[/quote]
Who has "shunned" it ?
everybody has variable valve timing adn SOME are going as far as now trygin variable compression.
What do you been by "limited" ?
It's not needed in any race series because race drivers use gears :D
Besides, not sure abotu Indy, but in F1 the FIA reg [B][FONT=ArialNarrow-Bold][COLOR=#ff00ff]
[LEFT]5.6.3 [/B][/COLOR][/FONT][FONT=ArialNarrow][COLOR=#ff00ff]Variable valve timing and variable valve lift systems are not permitted.[/LEFT]
[/COLOR][/FONT]kind of stops it :D
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Yes, yes and yes.
Formula 1 cars used to have constantly variable valve timing through the use of 'cam-less' engines. Each valve is (was) controlled by its own hydraulic solenoid and suplemented by constantly variable intake trumpet lengths.
All these systems have been banned for the new V8s, which is why you will have seen an awful lot more photos of 'naked' F1 cars this year. Less technology to hide.
EDIT: oops, simultaneous posting.
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[QUOTE=sunk]Rather, its mostly the opposite. S2000s feel like lawn movers below 4000rpm and suddenly become a F1 car over that limit. Several other like Pontiac Lemans , which i had,(also a I4) have redline of 6500rpm and yet never feel as if they are struggling.[/QUOTE]
Cockandballs. You obviously never drove or rode in a S2K. That thing revs extremely free, it zips through the rpms rather quicky, then anything from GM. You could get great perfomance without even going above 6000rpms, the extra 2000rpm (3000 for me, in the old 2.0L one) is for that xtra punch. The i-vtec not only adjust the valve timers for high rpm, but adjusts for low end boost as well. Hense 3 cam phase
The GM Ecotech (2.2l) aren't half as flexable and lively as the H22, thats why its need forced induction like on the colbatSS.
EX. By the time a LS1 hits 2500 rpms the quickest it can, the S2k already broke its 8K red line.
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There are only two cam profiles in a V-Tec: 'torque' and 'high-lift' - it works via a small actuator that moves the cam across the head so the high lift cams are in contact with the valves.
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[QUOTE=MrKipling]There are only two cam profiles in a V-Tec: 'torque' and 'high-lift' - it works via a small actuator that moves the cam across the head so the high lift cams are in contact with the valves.[/QUOTE]
Oh, I thought there was a actuation for the change in the torque delivery for the mid-range . my mistake.:)
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2 Attachment(s)
I think the motor operates in 12V mode (rather than 16V) on light throttle apllications, but most (all?) sixteen valve cars do this.
These images show the internal differences pretty well (taken from asia.vtec.net), note the much closer spacing of the valve rockers to facilitate the cam switch.