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[QUOTE=NSXType-R;1021670]Well how about this, a barrel of oil went negative yesterday.
[url]https://youtu.be/1DPobOCYc-4[/url]
I wish I had the storage capacity to just buy up 100 gallons of 93 octane. They'd have to just give it to me any pay me![/QUOTE]
We live in very strange times.
Have you seen this: [url]https://karenable.com/supercar-market-update-q1-2020/[/url] ?
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I am just considering when to start buying. Markets are in turmoil. Everything in the world is a mess.
Automotive industry is in a bad way.
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[QUOTE=60Valves;1021673]We live in very strange times.
Have you seen this: [url]https://karenable.com/supercar-market-update-q1-2020/[/url] ?[/QUOTE]
I still can't afford that haha.
I wish my father had the forethought to squirrel away Mercedes 300SL gullwings for cheap when they were just a random used sports car. Running, not running, crashed, body shell, any condition is already worth more than anything.
[QUOTE=Kitdy;1021675]I am just considering when to start buying. Markets are in turmoil. Everything in the world is a mess.
Automotive industry is in a bad way.[/QUOTE]
Everything is a mess right now. I just hope they give me a nice big discount on a new car with a stick assuming I survive this pandemic.
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Hope you're well NSX. Must be tough on the front lines.
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[QUOTE=Kitdy;1021675]
Automotive industry is in a bad way.[/QUOTE]
It certainly is. Have you seen this update on Aston, Ferrari, & McLaren? [url]https://karenable.com/aston-ferrari-mclaren-q22020-update/[/url]
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[QUOTE=Kitdy;1021677]Hope you're well NSX. Must be tough on the front lines.[/QUOTE]
Thanks, I appreciate it. Things are quieting down, but I feel like a 2nd wave can be imminent at any point.
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Another large luxury sedan dies.
[url]https://www.theverge.com/2020/7/1/21310521/lincoln-continental-canceled-sales-production-sedans-suvs[/url]
At this rate, we should rename this thread The State of the Crossover.
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I noticed a Mk. Z today and thought it was a handsome car; the Continental is (was) too. Too bad they were built on the woeful Taurus platform.
[I]The State of the Electric Crossover[/I] is strong and largely vaporous.
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[QUOTE=NSXType-R;1022052]Another large luxury sedan dies.
[url]https://www.theverge.com/2020/7/1/21310521/lincoln-continental-canceled-sales-production-sedans-suvs[/url]
At this rate, we should rename this thread The State of the Crossover.[/QUOTE]
It was cool in concept, but who was gonna buy it?
[QUOTE=f6fhellcat13;1022053]I noticed a Mk. Z today and though it was a handsome car; the Continental is (was) too. Too bad they were built on the woeful Taurus platform.
[I]The State of the Electric Crossover[/I] is strong and largely vaporous.[/QUOTE]
But does anyone (i.e. general consumers) want electric crossovers yet?
I have a feeling there is a bit of pent up demand but not enough to boost carmakers after this pandemic.
Sergio was right; more consolidation was needed. Boring/sad. Manufacturing is getting hosed again. Big layoffs, redundancies, early retirement packages. Radioactive industry its becoming in Ontario (and many other places) sadly.
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[QUOTE=f6fhellcat13;1022053]I noticed a Mk. Z today and thought it was a handsome car; the Continental is (was) too. Too bad they were built on the woeful Taurus platform.
[I]The State of the Electric Crossover[/I] is strong and largely vaporous.[/QUOTE]
I am embarrassed to say I didn't realize the MKZ existed until today.
Taurus definitely was a strange car, it was too big on the outside but way too small on the inside from what I remembered. I will say they're the last sedan to be used for the NYPD so I'll miss it at least for that.
[QUOTE=Kitdy;1022054]It was cool in concept, but who was gonna buy it?
But does anyone (i.e. general consumers) want electric crossovers yet?
I have a feeling there is a bit of pent up demand but not enough to boost carmakers after this pandemic.
Sergio was right; more consolidation was needed. Boring/sad. Manufacturing is getting hosed again. Big layoffs, redundancies, early retirement packages. Radioactive industry its becoming in Ontario (and many other places) sadly.[/QUOTE]
Everyone wants to be fuel efficient and save the environment but end up buying heavy crossovers. I'm not sure why public perception goes that way. I get the macho and higher ride height thing, but it's really ridiculous.
As far as mergers are concerned, I agree with that. With the way the economy is going, who's going to buy a new vehicle, any vehicle, crossover or sedan? I don't think we need the big 3 in Detroit. Ford and GM is enough, Fiat/Chrysler doesn't make anything that sells well other than the RAM and Jeep Wrangler. Fiat might as well fold.
Nissan's offerings are all old and no one would buy their cars when Kia/Hyundai makes overall stronger products.
Mitsubishi could disappear and no one would bat an eye. The only thing I'd miss are their work box trucks.
With Honda, Acura could probably disappear too and no one would miss any of their cars other than the MDX/RDX.
As far as the Italians go, Lancia and Alfa Romeo could both go under and no one would notice.
Lots more consolidation to go I'm afraid.
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It speaks volumes (and I agree) that you didn't mention Volkswagen.
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[QUOTE=f6fhellcat13;1022056]It speaks volumes (and I agree) that you didn't mention Volkswagen.[/QUOTE]
VW I didn't want to get into yet. Seat could go away too.
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It's funny that the consolidation necessity stems from the fact that making cars is increasingly getting expensive... but with the EV revolution they will be cheaper to make and not as much consolidation will be needed. But by then any differentiation in the mechanicals will be a moot point...
As far as EVs are concerned, though, the convience hurdles are still too big for them to become a viable proposition.
Saying that no one would notice Alfa Romeo, Lancia* or Seat disappearing is a very US-centric view of the matter. On the same page I could say that no one would be bothered if Chevrolet disappea... wait Chevrolet already went and nobody was even bothered.
[SIZE=1]*Lancia has already almost disappeared... despite managing to somehow outsell the entire Alfa Romeo range with one car and one market...[/SIZE]
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[QUOTE=Ferrer;1022059]It's funny that the consolidation necessity stems from the fact that making cars is increasingly getting expensive... but with the EV revolution they will be cheaper to make and not as much consolidation will be needed. But by then any differentiation in the mechanicals will be a moot point...
As far as EVs are concerned, though, the convience hurdles are still too big for them to become a viable proposition.
Saying that no one would notice Alfa Romeo, Lancia* or Seat disappearing is a very US-centric view of the matter. On the same page I could say that no one would be bothered if Chevrolet disappea... wait Chevrolet already went and nobody was even bothered.
[SIZE=1]*Lancia has already almost disappeared... despite managing to somehow outsell the entire Alfa Romeo range with one car and one market...[/SIZE][/QUOTE]
Oh for sure this is a USDM centric view of things. Most of VW's range overlaps with Audi, it could do with some cost cutting too. Other than the exotic cars, most of the Italian car manufacturers could probably disappear.
GM has way too many brands I agree, but my comments were more based on the overall health of the company. GM is definitely not healthy, but I see it as in better shape than Fiat/Chrysler is. I wouldn't miss anything Chevrolet makes other than the C8 anyway. The Camaro I never really liked and their trucks I miss least. The whole F150 lineup could disappear too (mostly because I don't like them, not because they don't make money. They make Ford plenty of money, I know.). Why they've made pickups so big and so ugly so quickly I cannot fathom (mostly because they can get away with it and emission controls are more lax with bigger trucks, I know).
When you drive a 2001 Subaru Forester, a mid sized crossover and the hood line of most pickups is already at my head when I'm seated, you know they're way too big.
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Well, one of the interesting upcoming mergers will be PSA-FCA. They will have the following brands:
[LIST][*]Fiat[*]Lancia[*]Alfa Romeo[*]Maserati[*]Ferrari[*]Dodge[*]Ram[*]Chrysler[*]Peugeot[*]Citroën[*]Opel[*]Jeep[*]Iveco[/LIST]
This is going to be interesting to handle...
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But wait! There is even more!
[LIST][*]DS[*]Vauxhall[*]Abarth[/LIST]
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[URL="https://www.forbes.com/sites/jimgorzelany/2017/07/20/jeep-said-to-be-more-valuable-than-fca-is-a-spinoff-coming/#5b0e309a40f5"]The real question is: will Jeep continue to be more valuable than the colossus in aggregate?[/URL]
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How many will survive?! Place your bets now!
Part of why I dipped outta automotive is because I saw little future in that industry in this province.
Funnily, I went into transit, which was going gangbusters until, oh, about mid March.
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[QUOTE=Revo;1022064]But wait! There is even more!
[LIST][*]DS[*]Vauxhall[*]Abarth[/LIST][/QUOTE]
Completely true, I forgot about those.
[QUOTE=f6fhellcat13;1022065][URL="https://www.forbes.com/sites/jimgorzelany/2017/07/20/jeep-said-to-be-more-valuable-than-fca-is-a-spinoff-coming/#5b0e309a40f5"]The real question is: will Jeep continue to be more valuable than the colossus in aggregate?[/URL][/QUOTE]
Jeep is only worth so much because most of their cars are based on [I]tarted up Fiat 127 bits[/I]...
It was like this time when Opel suddenly went from loss-leader to a money-maker when trasitioning from GM to PSA [I]just because[/I] they stopped burdening them with engineering costs without paying any royalties in the books...
[QUOTE=Kitdy;1022067]How many will survive?! Place your bets now!
Part of why I dipped outta automotive is because I saw little future in that industry in this province.
Funnily, I went into transit, which was going gangbusters until, oh, about mid March.[/QUOTE]
Many will disappear, I bet on Lancia and DS first.
Oh and by the way, could be worse. Here the second biggest car plant (Nissan) just closed. Now pretty much it is only SEAT...
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[QUOTE=Ferrer;1022063]Well, one of the interesting upcoming mergers will be PSA-FCA. They will have the following brands:
[LIST][*]Fiat[*]Lancia[*]Alfa Romeo[*]Maserati[*]Ferrari[*]Dodge[*]Ram[*]Chrysler[*]Peugeot[*]Citroën[*]Opel[*]Jeep[*]Iveco[/LIST]
This is going to be interesting to handle...[/QUOTE]
Ferrari is no longer part of FCA.
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[QUOTE=60Valves;1022073]Ferrari is no longer part of FCA.[/QUOTE]
Well yes, they've spun-off the company because accounting, but for all that matters they are part of FCA.
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[QUOTE=Ferrer;1022075]Well yes, they've spun-off the company because accounting, but for all that matters they are part of FCA.[/QUOTE]
Not really, they are completely independent now and listed on the NYSE.
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This conversation spurned me to research, and I have learned that Canada Pension Plan is one of the largest holders of RACE (Ferrari). Good to know my pension is dependent on the wealthy buying Italian luxury cars.
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[QUOTE=60Valves;1022076]Not really, they are completely independent now and listed on the NYSE.[/QUOTE]
And the Giulia QV has 3/4 of the Ferrari V8 engine under bonnet.
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[QUOTE=Ferrer;1022079]And the Giulia QV has 3/4 of the Ferrari V8 engine under bonnet.[/QUOTE]
There are several car manufacturers that source engines from other manufacturers. Alliances and parts sharing is completely different from direct management control. FCA and Ferrari are now run completely independently, are different unrelated legal entities, and have completely separate share structures.
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[url]https://www.carscoops.com/2020/06/kia-details-clutch-by-wire-manual-gearbox-for-mild-hybrids/[/url]
Is this like a Saab Sensonic with a clutch pedal?
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[QUOTE=Ferrer;1022084][url]https://www.carscoops.com/2020/06/kia-details-clutch-by-wire-manual-gearbox-for-mild-hybrids/[/url]
Is this like a Saab Sensonic with a clutch pedal?[/QUOTE]
Yeah, it looks like the Saab Sensonic more or less. But I think the future for Manual Transmission or any of its iterations is the new intelligent Manual Transmission, which does away with the clutch pedal entirely. According to Hyundai's [URL="http://mukcheck.com/토토"][color=#000000]Korean toto site[/color][/URL], "This not only makes life easier for the driver it’s also more efficient, presumably since every actuation of the clutch will be perfectly executed."
It's like combining the best of both worlds. The convenience of an automatic and the driving experience of a manual transmission. I think it's just a matter of time until this will get mainstream. It's a pretty neat concept.
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I agree that it's interesting, but, at least here in the States people drive cars with manual transmissions because they [i]want to drive a car with a manual transmission[/i]. I think it is heading towards that dynamic elsewhere, as well. I'm not sure that this would sufficiently scratch that itch. After all, I've never owned an automatic but when I find myself in a rental with paddles, I almost never use them.
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[QUOTE=f6fhellcat13;1022097]I agree that it's interesting, but, at least here in the States people drive cars with manual transmissions because they [i]want to drive a car with a manual transmission[/i]. I think it is heading towards that dynamic elsewhere, as well. I'm not sure that this would sufficiently scratch that itch. After all, I've never owned an automatic but when I find myself in a rental with paddles, I almost never use them.[/QUOTE]
I'd have to agree with you there. A few automotive trends I haven't liked is the change for the sake of change when things worked great before. I don't see any advantage to changing manual transmissions to drive by wire other than maybe packaging. HVAC controls going to touchscreen and automatic gear shift buttons instead of levers as done before makes things confusing. Call me old fashioned, but there's a certain amount of safety involved with direct linkages that I don't quite trust with drive by wire.
Maybe I'm just old and yelling at the sky.
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[url]https://jalopnik.com/tesla-has-to-stop-misleading-germans-with-autopilot-co-1844383313[/url]
A step in the right direction.
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[QUOTE=benrayburn;1022094]Yeah, it looks like the Saab Sensonic more or less. But I think the future for Manual Transmission or any of its iterations is the new intelligent Manual Transmission, which does away with the clutch pedal entirely. According to Hyundai's [URL="http://mukcheck.com/토토"][color=#000000]Korean toto site[/color][/URL], "This not only makes life easier for the driver it’s also more efficient, presumably since every actuation of the clutch will be perfectly executed."
It's like combining the best of both worlds. The convenience of an automatic and the driving experience of a manual transmission. I think it's just a matter of time until this will get mainstream. It's a pretty neat concept.[/QUOTE]
I don't know, the Sensonic wasn't very successful and the rest of it sounds suspiciously like and automated manual. And those are actually rubbish...
I wonder if, in the European version (i.e. the one with a clutch pedal) you can actually shift clutchless. I'm sure someone'll try it once press car are available.
[QUOTE=f6fhellcat13;1022097]I agree that it's interesting, but, at least here in the States people drive cars with manual transmissions because they [i]want to drive a car with a manual transmission[/i]. I think it is heading towards that dynamic elsewhere, as well. I'm not sure that this would sufficiently scratch that itch. After all, I've never owned an automatic but when I find myself in a rental with paddles, I almost never use them.[/QUOTE]
Exactly. Also, now that automatics aren't penalty options anymore, what is the point of this contraption? If I want manual give me one, else I'll go for an auto.
[SIZE=1]*Ironically I have used "manual mode" (my first auto did not have paddles) in the two autos I have owned, albeit for different reasons.[/SIZE]
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I was forced to use manual mode in a Mini Countryman I had as a rental. [B]I must say that I resented doing this.[/B] This was a number of years ago, so the MINI had first-generation EPAS. BMW seems to have gotten this one really wrong: not only was the assist so high that you could steer with your pinky, but it also had a pretty quick rack so those effortless steering inputs cause a whole lot of steering angle.
[SIZE=1]As an aside:my Insight is a decade older and has far, far superior electric-assist steering; great feel and decent heft. Zeroth generation seems to have been much more advanced than first... Do I talk about this car too much? Is this what it's like to be an M-Sport customer?[/SIZE]
Anyway, my nice root-beer brown Mini with its stupid vertically-split tailgate had the power-steering pump from a 1970s Cadillac and the calm demeanor of the cokehead within a 1970s Cadillac. The most-microscopic of inputs would send the eager little car bounding off toward the roadside until the next input/correction sent it spearing off to the opposite shoulder. There was no resistance from the steering wheel at all.
Eventually I figured out that the car would drastically cut back the assistance if I left it in "sport mode" (or whatever MINI/BMW call it). The downside of this was that, left to it's own devices, the car would hold gears until 5,000 rpm (exaggeration; I can't remember the real number) or so. This was as intolerable, if not quite as unsafe, as the steering so was forced to manually shift up wherever I went.
EDIT: STELLANTIS: Discuss.
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I don't know who that M-Sport customer bloke you are talking about is. I am an [B][U]M-Performance[/U][/B] customer which comes from the ancient tradition of being the kind of asshole you wouldn't want to have round for dinner.
Having clarified this V.I.P. (a.k.a. very important point), my [I]business case[/I] is different. Now, for those [I]who care[/I] you mainly buy a rear wheel drive car because you enjoy the experience of the car tightening its line in the corners when you apply the throttle in the middle of one. We could in fact discuss how counter intuitive it is that, in a RWD vehicle, if you enter a corner a tiny little bit too fast and don't want to end up in the tree sitting on the outside of it, the technique to apply is to accelerate to gain traction, rotate the car and ease up the initial understeer.
Anyway, as always I digress. I like this line tightening malarkey rear wheel drive cars do. And my current car can certainly do it. But there's a problem; with the nuclear power plant that sits under the bonnet, at any speed below 120mph gears one through five are useless. And by useless I mean that if you apply even the tiniest form of throttle input in one of them in a corner the dash starts beeping and flashing lights at you furiously as if you just mentioned the Polish holiday of 1939, the entire car grows into halt and you sit there in the middle of the road going nowhere.
The workaround here, though, is fairly simple. To enjoy the M-Performance S-Drive 1 Series M BMW M you set everything to max Sport M racy settings, put the gear box into manual mode... and insist in going everywhere in sixth (it is advised to only downshift to fifth for the tightest of hairpins, you know the ones where the maximum speed you can take them at is 20). This way you enjoy the finest of Bavaria [U]and[/U] are not killed to death in the first corner.
So there you go, paddles do have a purpose in life for driving enjoyment.
The other car where I was forced to use manumatic mode was the Alfa, but that was mostly because Italians can't do automatics.
Also, regarding electricalness power steering. My worst experience has been with Stellantis cars (I honestly had to look for it, I just though it was the latest instalment in the Trek Stars whatever franchise...). In the late Lancia Delta it was so bad that you honestly wondered if it was worth the hassle at all. It would have been far less vague and imprecise if you just tried to steer the car with the mind.
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[QUOTE=f6fhellcat13;1022105]
[SIZE=1]As an aside:my Insight is a decade older and has far, far superior electric-assist steering; great feel and decent heft. Zeroth generation seems to have been much more advanced than first... Do I talk about this car too much? Is this what it's like to be an M-Sport customer?[/SIZE]
Anyway, my nice root-beer brown Mini with its stupid vertically-split tailgate had the power-steering pump from a 1970s Cadillac and the calm demeanor of the cokehead within a 1970s Cadillac. The most-microscopic of inputs would send the eager little car bounding off toward the roadside until the next input/correction sent it spearing off to the opposite shoulder. There was no resistance from the steering wheel at all.
Eventually I figured out that the car would drastically cut back the assistance if I left it in "sport mode" (or whatever MINI/BMW call it). The downside of this was that, left to it's own devices, the car would hold gears until 5,000 rpm (exaggeration; I can't remember the real number) or so. This was as intolerable, if not quite as unsafe, as the steering so was forced to manually shift up wherever I went.
EDIT: STELLANTIS: Discuss.[/QUOTE]
When did you get an Insight? I thought you had a Toyota Celica/Supra.
We were just talking about how the current numher of car manufacturers is unsustainable. We saw the mergers coming.
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[QUOTE=Ferrer;1022106]I don't know who that M-Sport customer bloke you are talking about is. I am an [B][U]M-Performance[/U][/B] customer which comes from the ancient tradition of being the kind of asshole you wouldn't want to have round for dinner.[/quote]
Ah, I must have been talking about someone else entirely...
[quote]So there you go, paddles do have a purpose in life for driving enjoyment.[/quote]
I can see paddles being enjoyable on-track, but below nine-tenths I'm not so sure.
[quote]The other car where I was forced to use manumatic mode was the Alfa, but that was mostly because Italians can't do automatics.
Also, regarding electricalness power steering. My worst experience has been with Stellantis cars (I honestly had to look for it, I just though it was the latest instalment in the Trek Stars whatever franchise...). In the late Lancia Delta it was so bad that you honestly wondered if it was worth the hassle at all. It would have been far less vague and imprecise if you just tried to steer the car with the mind.[/QUOTE]
I believe that the renaming was just announced today. Chrysler finally got on the ZF eight speed train and ditched their awful internally-designed 'boxes.
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[QUOTE=NSXType-R;1022109]When did you get an Insight? I thought you had a Toyota Celica/Supra. [/QUOTE]
I've had it three or four years for daily-driving duty. The Supra only comes out for more special occasions. There is also a Saab, but we don't talk about that.
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[QUOTE=f6fhellcat13;1022105]EDIT: STELLANTIS: Discuss.[/QUOTE]
You love to see this vaguely bland corpro-futurist name for your decaying manufacturing old tech holding company.
[QUOTE=Ferrer;1022106]I don't know who that M-Sport customer bloke you are talking about is. I am an [B][U]M-Performance[/U][/B] customer which comes from the ancient tradition of being the kind of asshole you wouldn't want to have round for dinner.[/QUOTE]
I mean. You can only applaud a post of this quality. Bravo.
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[QUOTE=f6fhellcat13;1022110]I believe that the renaming was just announced today. Chrysler finally got on the ZF eight speed train and ditched their awful internally-designed 'boxes.[/QUOTE]
I thought than in America, with your usual 8.7 litre big block Hemi-Cleveland V8, gearboxes were actually academic. So it didn't matter than you ToqueHydra-cruise-o-matic had only two speeds and was useless at transferring power to the wheels.
Who would've thought that one day, more than four forward speeds would be necessary for American cars.
[QUOTE=f6fhellcat13;1022111]I've had it three or four years for daily-driving duty. The Supra only comes out for more special occasions. There is also a Saab, but we don't talk about that.[/QUOTE]
We should talk more about Saabs. I like to write stories as a hobby, usually loosely based on things that I experience, and I have a friend (which usually incarnates Lt. Nark) whose personality fits perfectly with a Saab Turbo.
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[QUOTE=NSXType-R;1022109]We were just talking about how the current numher of car manufacturers is unsustainable. We saw the mergers coming.[/QUOTE]
This one had already been announced for months (years?).
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[QUOTE=Ferrer;1022118]
We should talk more about Saabs. I like to write stories as a hobby, usually loosely based on things that I experience, and I have a friend (which usually incarnates Lt. Nark) whose personality fits perfectly with a Saab Turbo.[/QUOTE]
In theory, Saab isn't exactly dead, they still sell the Saab Gripen.
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_JAS_39_Gripen[/url]
...which can still taxi down a highway if you so choose so.