So other than the regional parties in NI, Wales, and Scotland, who is worth voting for? Who will England vote for? I figure UKIP and the BNP will do better.
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So other than the regional parties in NI, Wales, and Scotland, who is worth voting for? Who will England vote for? I figure UKIP and the BNP will do better.
You've got it spot on ... and why the tories and lib dems are running to extreme right wing points of view to try to stop that !!
[quote=Kitdy;999364]So other than the regional parties in NI, Wales, and Scotland, who is worth voting for? Who will England vote for? I figure UKIP and the BNP will do better.[/quote]
[quote=Matra et Alpine;999366]You've got it spot on ... and why the tories and lib dems are running to extreme right wing points of view to try to stop that !![/quote]
Welcome to Europe!
The common person cannot except blame! Blame the people with darker skin and/or those from other places! Scapegoatism: still running strong.
[quote=henk4;999356]that's the state of the industry, not of the car;)
If you cannot compete on a global basis you are out...as simple as that[/quote]
Perhaps. [I]The State Of The Car [/I]is that a particular lump of plastic and metal can be peddled as any one of a number of different cars by virtue of a badge. In this case GM was trying to introduce a[I] “new”[/I] brand by reintroducing cars that in the past were badged as Holdens. I expected the brand snobs, who would have previously eschewed Astras and Vectras because they were shitty old Holdens for brands like Alfas and Peugeots and Renaults because they were [I]European[/I], to fall for it and buy them. Now that they were [I]European[/I].
But it seems I underestimated the Australian car buying public. No one is more surprised than I.
There's no point in having a fancy euro car if no one can recognise the badge.
Just tell them your Ssangyong is German and used to be spelled ßangyong, prior to the '96 reforms.
Yes, and this Great Wall I have here is named after the old Berlin Wall.
Euro snobness is over rated. At home we have four cars, two Asian, two European. There's one that is an 80 grand V8-engined sports saloon. That doesn't count.
Of the remaining three, the Asians are good car and the European is utter rubbish.
Okay, I'm going to ask about collectors' cars here. Should cars ever cost millions and be considered as art?
I am asking because the guy that represents the Zagato family says cars that has his name are worth millions and that is why they will continue to survive in the video below, around the 6 minute mark or so.
I don't agree that they are investments, as he noted, however. A car that is an investment for the most part probably won't get driven.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97diAMksR14"]Zagato Embodies Essential Beauty (English Subtitles) - YouTube[/ame]
Personally, I think it's just because it's good for his business. :D
I mean yeah, the upkeep and maintenance certainly won't be cheap as they possibly have non-standard parts. And I also understand there's the exclusivity factor- the P4/5 is expensive because there is only one.
I think it shouldn't be expensive for the sake of being expensive.
Maybe I'm being a curmudgeon again, but I appreciate the mechanical aspects of the car being featured- the curves and design of the automobilel, and certainly the craftsmanship.
Is a Banksie worth more than the wall your local painter and decorator did when doing your room ? it's just paint and brush strokes :)
So yes, cars will be "collected" for their artistic value and their rarity.
Sad , I agree, I'd rather see every car thrashed to an inch of it's life as the designer/builder first intended. BUT reality takes a grip and we have to cherish the beautiful lines etc and maintain the best by not (ab)using them.
Sadly capitalism will then take over and they will start exchanging for larger sums.
That's OK coz some of us remember the crash in classic car prices 20 years ago - friend had JUST finished a £70K restoration on a lovely E-type whose value BEFORE the crash was easily in the 120-130K and instead was only getting offers for £40K !! ouch :(
It'll happen again, but it's all just risk investment by people with more money than sense or morality :)
The problem for a car is that to enjoy and use it you have to take out on the road, and therefore this can potentially cause damage to it. To enjoy a painting or an sculpture you just have to look at it, which normally causes no harm whatsoever.
I do not conceive having a car to not drive it, I mean what's the point, but if some people want to have their phenomenally expensive and rare cars as investments, locked away gathering dust, well what can we do to stop it?
[quote=Ferrer;999434]...well what can we do to stop it?[/quote]
Vigilantism.
[quote=Ferrer;999434]The problem for a car is that to enjoy and use it you have to take out on the road, and therefore this can potentially cause damage to it. To enjoy a painting or an sculpture you just have to look at it, which normally causes no harm whatsoever.
I do not conceive having a car to not drive it, I mean what's the point, but if some people want to have their phenomenally expensive and rare cars as investments, locked away gathering dust, well what can we do to stop it?[/quote]
Yes, but if they take it out to show it off once in a while the valets will make sure to add the equivalent of several thousand miles of hard driving to it.
[quote=f6fhellcat13;999449]Yes, but if they take it out to show it off once in a while the valets will make sure to add the equivalent of several thousand miles of hard driving to it.[/quote]
I need to land a job as a valet in Villa d'Este.
[quote=Ferrer;999453]I need to land a job as a valet in Villa d'Este.[/quote]
They are truly the saviors of undriven automobiles.
I agree Ferrer ... "I do not conceive having a car to not drive it"
BUT, I can understand that to others the look may be more than the experience and so to tehm storing and observing is the pinnacle of auto ownership.
There are some cars I admit I just drooled over and a recent original Zagata bodied Lancai was one ...
[img]https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/1043932_10151673242433560_1606467727_n.jpg[/img]
Really could have just looked at it all day.
NOW, question, I have a model collection of my favourite looking cars.
Do you collect models Ferrer ?
If "yes", then ask yourself the question, if you had more money than sense would you prefer the full size model to look at ???? coz you cant drive those models :)
[quote=Ferrer;999434]
I do not conceive having a car to not drive it, I mean what's the point, but if some people want to have their phenomenally expensive and rare cars as investments, locked away gathering dust, well what can we do to stop it?[/quote]My humble and sorely missed Monaro CV8 was a perfect example. Many people would tell me I should put it in a garage and not drive it. I understood the sentiment but it was simply too much fun to drive and to pretty to lock away. And to my benefit the previous owner had done just that. Preserved my car for me until I bought it.
I have to stop now. I am tearing up…. :(
[quote=Matra et Alpine;999457]...[/quote]
I understand the beauty, and the admiration. Nevertheless as I said in some other thread, I think that the prewar sculptures are unbeatable when it comes to sheer beauty, so this argument only applies to cars from before 1940 to me.
I did/do have a small collection a model cars and I liked to admire the beauty but I preferred to play with them up to the point of even breaking them. I was the kid making vroom vroom noises and imagining what it must be like to drive them while they moved down my imaginary mountain road in my bedroom.
I must be strange. :)
[quote=Ferrer;999477]I did/do have a small collection a model cars and I liked to admire the beauty but I preferred to play with them up to the point of even breaking them. I was the kid making vroom vroom noises and imagining what it must be like to drive them while they moved down my imaginary mountain road in my bedroom.
I must be strange. :)[/quote]
In that case, "strange" must be common around these parts because I was exactly the same. My collection's sadly been relegated to the loft these days since getting my own house. - I don't have a spare room where they would look good, rather than nerdy / childish, on display.
Women responsible for making ill-advised decisions when it comes to choosing cars [U]and[/U] the success of the Cayenne.
[url="http://www.autoblog.com/2013/08/21/porsche-has-doubled-us-sales-to-women-w-video/"]Porsche has doubled US sales to women [w/videos] - Autoblog[/url]
hmmm, good point guys, so to clarify yes we all played with Dinky/Corgi £2 per cars.
I guess I was using the comparison with more accurate/expensive models.
Not the extreme end of that either tho'.
eg I've a few Spark etc at the £10-20 per and a disturbingly growing collection of OTTO 1/18th at more :( ( thankfully the wife doesn't read here and thinks they ALL cost £5 :) )
Mind you never payed full price for one yet, so price based on "Recommended retail price" by the manufacturer then I reckon it's double the prices :(
Main point being, NOT the kind you'd willingly "bash" .
[quote=Matra et Alpine;999784]hmmm, good point guys, so to clarify yes we all played with Dinky/Corgi £2 per cars.
I guess I was using the comparison with more accurate/expensive models.
Not the extreme end of that either tho'.
eg I've a few Spark etc at the £10-20 per and a disturbingly growing collection of OTTO 1/18th at more :( ( thankfully the wife doesn't read here and thinks they ALL cost £5 :) )
Mind you never payed full price for one yet, so price based on "Recommended retail price" by the manufacturer then I reckon it's double the prices :(
Main point being, NOT the kind you'd willingly "bash" .[/quote]
I played with all my models as a kid, regardless of how much they cost (some were £50+)...I was just careful with the expensive ones.
It's the same with cars. - Proportionally, my BMW probably cost me more of my "worth" than a Ferrari 250GTO costs it's average owner; that's why I don't abuse it (not saying I don't drive it fast when appropriate). If I could afford to constantly fix all damage/wear (or replace the car in the worst case) from hard use, I'd probably take it to the track or drive it harder on the road.
With what would have been an '80s revival this past decade, if the baby boomers hadn't turned the population triangle square, this decade into the next will be the time of '90s revival. What do you think that will mean for cars?
As the '90s were the decade of my birth, what I remember of them I remember with slightly rose-tinted lenses: the Viper, the Miata (I know Ferrer will disagree), the NSX (see previous), 993s, the final GM B-Bodies etc...
What were the defining characteristics of the decade then? Which characteristics will translate well into this decade?
The MX-5 is from the sixties anyway.
The things is, though, most of those cars are still in production, so it's hard to make a comeback for something that has never left anyway; and the NSX managed to survive until the mid-noughties, so again making a comeback for something that has barely laeft will be hard.
Is it just me or does it seem like cars stay in concept form for longer and longer?
Look at the NSX, Camaro and LF-A concepts. The concepts are introduced year after year with very little variation.
Is this just normal practice? It seems like it makes the car that much more boring to me at least.
If this is to drum up anticipation, I don't think it's working.
Come to think of it, the general shape of the 918 was unveiled, what 3 years ago now?
Regarding Lexus LFA, engineering a brand new supercar is a time consuming process. Especially, when during the devlopment you make a switch from an aluminum frame to a carbon fibre tub, therefore starting from scratch all over again.
Porsche 918, too, is a venture into the unknown for the manufcturer.
What is much more disturbing is the lack of "true" concept cars. Today, car shows are full of these lightly disguised versions of upcoming models.
We need real concept cars, cars that push the limits of automotive design, offer fresh ideas and approaches.
On the production car concepts front, one of the most pathetic situations of late is that of Ford and its new Mondeo, which isn't new any more actually. It was unveiled in late 2012 and its introduction in showrooms is at least a year ago, maybe more. Now to keep a modicum of interest they keep releasing [I]concepts[/I] (like the Vignale thing from last week) too keep it sort of fresh but it will be old by the time it hits the dealer network...
As for proper concepts, yes they've sort of disappeared, except perhaps from japanese car manufacturers. But then again there's less and less variation in the automotive industry as time goes by so what's the point of fresh ideas?
[quote=Revo;1000591]Regarding Lexus LFA, engineering a brand new supercar is a time consuming process. Especially, when during the devlopment you make a switch from an aluminum frame to a carbon fibre tub, therefore starting from scratch all over again.
Porsche 918, too, is a venture into the unknown for the manufcturer.
What is much more disturbing is the lack of "true" concept cars. Today, car shows are full of these lightly disguised versions of upcoming models.
We need real concept cars, cars that push the limits of automotive design, offer fresh ideas and approaches.[/quote]
Ah, I forgot about the change to carbon fiber for the LF-A. That would make sense.
Concepts are cool and all, but honestly, when was the last time a concept ended up being produced? It's one thing to make a real concept and another thing to make a lightly disguised version of the real thing.
It's only truly exciting when concepts end up being produced.
The latest example (off the top of my head) where a concept ended up being produced was the S2000. The Honda Sport Study model was launched in 1995 and it ended up being the S2000 in 1999.
[quote=Ferrer;1000594]On the production car concepts front, one of the most pathetic situations of late is that of Ford and its new Mondeo, which isn't new any more actually. It was unveiled in late 2012 and its introduction in showrooms is at least a year ago, maybe more. Now to keep a modicum of interest they keep releasing [I]concepts[/I] (like the Vignale thing from last week) too keep it sort of fresh but it will be old by the time it hits the dealer network...
As for proper concepts, yes they've sort of disappeared, except perhaps from japanese car manufacturers. But then again there's less and less variation in the automotive industry as time goes by so what's the point of fresh ideas?[/quote]
Isn't the European Mondeo just the Ford Fusion over here? Or am I missing something?
Looks like they aped Aston a little bit too much.
[quote=NSXType-R;1000595]The latest example (off the top of my head) where a concept ended up being produced was the S2000. The Honda Sport Study model was launched in 1995 and it ended up being the S2000 in 1999.[/quote]
Trepiùno (2004) to 500 (2007) is a more recent example, though hardly exciting.
[quote=NSXType-R;1000595]Isn't the European Mondeo just the Ford Fusion over here? Or am I missing something?
Looks like they aped Aston a little bit too much.[/quote]
It is indeed the Fusion, although in Europe the old Mondeo soldiers on for the moment.
Saab lives!
[url="http://www.saabsunited.com/2013/09/production-has-started.html"]Pre-production has started | SAABSUNITED[/url]
Saab lives!
[url="http://www.saabsunited.com/2013/09/production-has-started.html"]Pre-production has started | SAABSUNITED[/url]
The ink has not even dried on the cheque to my local (true story) hummer/Saab/Saturn dealership for a NEVS 9-3!
Most cars you see on the road probably started their design process more than 5 years ago.....a lot of hard points on engine, suspension and chassis may have been locked down early, but styling and other points may well be in flux until they feel they got a working design. The concepts years after year helps them gauge the direction. For something plain like your Camry or Corolla they might not care so much. For something like GTR or NSX they spend more time since image actually is important...
My cousin brother has Ford Taurus that he found a problem, the One of the most common problems with the Ford Taurus involves the car's suspension.
I got to know that Quite a few Taurus owners have received broken coil springs, which can expense nearly $1, 000 to replace if you experience also damage on the rear struts. Connect rods, ball joints and sway bars have also been known to offer problems.
For car info visit auto-car-transport.com
The state of the car?
More gadgets, less gauges, and manuals for those who can't drive them.
Pretty grim.
At least HP is high and fuel economy is better.
Or something.
[quote=Ferrer;1000599]It is indeed the Fusion, although in Europe the old Mondeo soldiers on for the moment.[/quote]
We got something before the old world?
[quote=jcp123;1000871]We got something before the old world?[/quote]
yes, Ford wanted to close the Genk plant in Belgium, which was earmarked for the production. As is seemed to be rather odd to start the new Mondeo production there and then close down the factory within in a year, Ford decided to postpone the introduction and close the factory first. And for what it is worth the D-segment sedans in which the Mondeo fits is not selling pretty well in Europe. People seem to prefer the A4 and 3-series, which size-wise are more C-segmenters, but have the all important image.
[quote=henk4;1000873]yes, Ford wanted to close the Genk plant in Belgium, which was earmarked for the production. As is seemed to be rather odd to start the new Mondeo production there and then close down the factory within in a year, Ford decided to postpone the introduction and close the factory first. And for what it is worth the D-segment sedans in which the Mondeo fits is not selling pretty well in Europe. People seem to prefer the A4 and 3-series, which size-wise are more C-segmenters, but have the all important image.[/quote]
This is true, but only partly.
It's not that the 3er and C-Class have become over they year C-Segment cars, but rather that the D-segment saloons and estates from mainstream manufacturers have grown so much that they are as big as the old executive saloons from those manufacturers (Omega, Scorpio) used to be.
Also C-segment cars have grown to an extent that their size is now preposterous.
[quote=Ferrer;1000895]This is true, but only partly.
It's not that the 3er and C-Class have become over they year C-Segment cars, but rather that the D-segment saloons and estates from mainstream manufacturers have grown so much that they are as big as the old executive saloons from those manufacturers (Omega, Scorpio) used to be.
Also C-segment cars have grown to an extent that their size is now preposterous.[/quote]
In a D-Class car you'd expect to be able to transport five people in relative comfort. Not so in a BMW or a Mercedes C-Class.
And as far as size increas is concerned: The current Mercedes C-class will offer more space than the pontoon 220S of the fifties...