2011 sales in UK ....
Chrysler 1182
Lexus 8269
Mitsubishi 9843
Subaru 2634
So here. Mitsu doing a LOT better than Subaru !!
EDIT: fFor comparison Honda was 50577
Printable View
2011 sales in UK ....
Chrysler 1182
Lexus 8269
Mitsubishi 9843
Subaru 2634
So here. Mitsu doing a LOT better than Subaru !!
EDIT: fFor comparison Honda was 50577
AU sales 2011
[code]Rank Brand 2011 2010 % diff
1. Toyota 181,624 214,718 -15.4
2. Holden 126,095 132,923 -5.1
3. Ford 91,243 95,284 -4.2
4. Mazda 88,333 84,777 4.2
5. Hyundai 87,008 80,038 8.7
6. Nissan 67,926 62,676 8.4
7. Mitsubishi 61,108 62,496 -2.2
8. Volkswagen 44,740 38,016 17.7
9. Subaru 34,011 40,025 -15.0
10. Honda 30,107 40,375 -25.4
Rank Vehicle 2011 2010 % diff
1. Mazda3 41,429 39,003 6.2
2. Holden Commodore 40,617 45,956 -11.6
3. Toyota HiLux 36,124 39,896 -9.5
4. Toyota Corolla 36,087 41,632 -13.3
5. Holden Cruze 33,784 28,334 19.2
6. Hyundai i30 28,869 29,772 -3.0
7. Nissan Navara 21,675 21,171 2.4
8. Toyota Camry 19,169 25,014 -23.4
9. Ford Falcon 18,741 29,516 -36.5
10. Mitsubishi Lancer 18,717 23,076 -18.9[/code]
[URL="http://www.fcai.com.au/news/all/all/292/new-vehicle-sales-top-the-million-mark-in-2011"]Source[/URL].
Hmm... Mitsubishi is selling better than I assumed.
Thanks for the figures.
Honda will come back, especially if they can push through to the next generation of Civic and Accord. Also, they need to improve both the programming and batteries of their IMA hybrid system. Toyota is on a tear and there's no reason Honda's IMA can't do better and give a good share of the hybrid market.
I'll mourn Saab for a while; they have some interesting cars and I think there's some faint hope for them. I definitely agree Mitsubishi is on its way down; we rent Galants and Endeavours and both are trashy cars not worth anywhere near the MSRP. I have some doubts about Volvo too.
[quote=RacingManiac;975265]I don't know about that, Driver's Aids is one thing, chassis dynamic control is something else. And the line between the 2 is blurry at best. Much like the whole argument with 458 being more "alive" vs the McLaren. The E-diff and magnetic ride control still works in maximizing the performance envelope of the car even if the driver is powersliding to his heart's content. The car is still flattering the driver. And there is no question its making him faster, whether he is a F1 superstar or Joe Blow Dentist. Can Nigel Mansell drive faster than his Williams did without his active suspension equipped, ABS assisted, automatic gearbox shifting and traction control optimized car? I very much doubt that....
Subjective performance-wise it may be a different story. You might feel more involved in a dumb car where you are doing everything to make it go fast at the limit, than a smarter car with its performance envelope so high that at legal speed its just not thrilling....[/quote]
Precisely. There's something uniquely special about "flying manual" - taming a brute of a car and driving it with real vigour. You take the perfect line through a corner and there's an unmatched level of satisfaction in saying [i]"[b]I[/b] did that."[/i], not Skynet.
That's why, for me, the TVR Tuscan is the ultimate road car. Nothing else from the last 10 years comes close.
Is anyone annoyed at the styling decisions that Ferrari is making?
Stylistically the last "modern" Ferrari I actually like is the F430.
I don't like the 599 GTB or the 458 Italia or the California.
Ferraris have been rather ugly for a while now.
I'd name the 456GT as the last good looking Ferrari.
I'm rather annoyed by the fact that many of the facelifts for cars these days make the cars look more modern but less aesthetically pleasing.
I like the 458 more than the 430 or 360, but I like the 355 more. The big cheesy grinning front ends of the 599 and FF turn me off, but they're not so bad. The 550 I really didn't like, especially coming off the 512TR (the less said about the 512M the better..).
[quote=Clivey;981290]Precisely. There's something uniquely special about "flying manual" - taming a brute of a car and driving it with real vigour. You take the perfect line through a corner and there's an unmatched level of satisfaction in saying [i]"[b]I[/b] did that."[/i], not Skynet.
That's why, for me, the TVR Tuscan is the ultimate road car. Nothing else from the last 10 years comes close.[/quote]
In modern traffic the TVR is (may be) the ultimate track car, where one can experiment with what you can do with such a car. I'd prefer to have cars on public roads fitted with all sorts of safety gadgets so that the average drivers that use them may not be tempted to reach the level of satisfaction that you are referring to:)
[quote=henk4;981299]In modern traffic the TVR is (may be) the ultimate track car, where one can experiment with what you can do with such a car. I'd prefer to have cars on public roads fitted with all sorts of safety gadgets so that the average drivers that use them may not be tempted to reach the level of satisfaction that you are referring to:)[/quote]
Pieter, I'm only passing comment from an enthusiast's standpoint. - The Tuscan certainly isn't practical transport for the average motorist (hence me having the BMW and the C4 rather than a Chimaera for the same money :D ). When I get one, it'll be a second (or third) car. However, even driving one at normal speeds feels like an event.
As regards to safety equipment: I would prefer that average motorists were better educated and trained than they currently are - watching some people's driving is truly frightening for me and I'm appalled that many of them have licences. If someone needs to rely on ESP and other electronics, I want to be as far away from that person as possible. I've never had to rely on the system, though in the C4 the traction control helps you up snow covered slopes to a certain degree, which I was impressed with as usually the first thing you should do in snow is deactivate the system.
[quote=092326001;981293]Ferraris have been rather ugly for a while now.
I'd name the 456GT as the last good looking Ferrari.
I'm rather annoyed by the fact that many of the facelifts for cars these days make the cars look more modern but less aesthetically pleasing.[/quote]
Agreed- it looks very modern, but not in a good way at all. Amongst its competitors, I feel that the styling of the Ferrari will age the quickest.
[quote=pimento;981296]I like the 458 more than the 430 or 360, but I like the 355 more. The big cheesy grinning front ends of the 599 and FF turn me off, but they're not so bad. The 550 I really didn't like, especially coming off the 512TR (the less said about the 512M the better..).[/quote]
The 550 Maranello I like very much- much better than the 599 GTB.
The 360 I like too.
The grill I know is based on old Ferraris, but it had yet to turn into the cheesy grin, which sort of began on the 612 Scaglietti, but it had yet to grow into a tumor at that point. :D
[quote=f6fhellcat13;973137]If gasoline prices are brought up, not only do the Feds get a much-needed pile of shekels, but customers are incentivized to pick cars that in the real world will return reasonable mileage figures. This will create demand for genuinely frugal vehicles, not just ones that look like they are on the EPA’s dynos. There are definitely times when the market cannot be trusted to regulate itself, but I feel that higher gas prices would be a much less artificial push in the right direction than CAFE’s standards. I am not sure how Europe is handling it, but governments tend to be the same brand of stupid the world over.[/quote]
[quote=Kitdy;973145]
Troubling for me are the new CAFE standards. As much as I hate gas tax (and as much as my interest in saving the environment has faded in recent times), the current approach seems utterly moronic, and a totally political play. Raising the gas tax in the US as a politician would be suicidal, so one must instead obfuscate the price the consumer will ultimately pay by putting the onus on the manufacturer, not the consumer. I mentioned this to hellcat last night, and he and I agreed that it was not the right path to take (as he has written). The very high MPG standards could easily grind new sales to a halt, and give an advantage to automakers that place less an importance on the NADM (ie, all but the big three).
Ultimately though, the big monkey in the closet is gas prices. Gas pre-recession here was very expensive, and for other places, near unbearable. Will we start seeing cars become tame in the next 5-15 years? Will anodyne greenness via expensive gas keep anyone from driving tire shredding beasts? As someone that likes fast cars, this worries me, probably even more than model bloat. I know the performance car will survive, but I could see it be placed in an even less important supporting role that it already is.[/quote]
Endorsing making fuel expensive through tax is completely insane. You only have to live in this country to realise that (over 70% of the cost of fuel is tax - they even put sales tax (VAT) ON TOP of the standard fuel tax :mad:).
A raise in fuel tax has a knock-on effect on the price of everything as transport and haulage costs rise. - Prices here have gone absolutely mental in the last few years. We're seeing £1.50/litre ($2.38 USD) prices for fuel and it hurts. It SHOULDN'T and DOESN'T HAVE TO be this way...but politicians being what they are we're bent over for everything. Even the weekly food shopping is now costing us £10-£15 more than when we bought our house 18 months ago. 2+ litre petrol cars are now considered a luxury over here and if you Americans / Australians / Canadians had to drive some of the crap that's littering our roads, you'd be shaking with fear.
[IMG]http://www.havanacarhire.com/images/photos/hyundai-i10.jpg[/IMG]
*Pukes*
We need to make government smaller and tell them to keep their greedy, interfering noses out of our lives and let us live. All the "green" this and "eco" that is just a ploy to tax us more and during a recession it's completely inappropriate.
If the authorities really gave a shit about climate change, being overzealously obsessive over exhaust emissions and taxes would be a pretty low priority. More of a concern is mankind's overpopulation of the planet, but that's another discussion.
Hello, my fine gentlemen :) I haven't been posting in here for a while because of real life issues, but whatever...
I'm not entirely sure about the current state of the car. One development that I really like is that car makers are beginning to mix up their styling again (it isn't like one face for 50 brands anymore, or at least it has become better). BMW is a great example, they have really improved their cars in the looks department. The new 3-series is a great looking car, let's hope they stay on track with their next products.
Also, it seems like FINALLY car makers have realized that weight is actually pretty bad for a car (mainly driven by the ecology concerns, but still). Many new cars are getting lighter, a few even smaller (new Pug 208) which is cool to see after many years of overall fatness.
Best news for me is the incredible growth of the youngtimer/oldtimer scene in our region. There are so many classic cars here it's just mindblowing. I've also began to appreciate many other car scenes (I've become a huge fan of decently modded executive saloons for some reasons).
The state of Opel (I mean wtf is happening with those guys? Last time I checked they seemed to do fine, but after my break from motoring news I was just flooded with bad news --> if anybody can elaborate what exactly happened, I'd be very thankful) is one of the only things that make me kinda sad, but overall, I like big parts of the development. Funnily enough, design seems to head into the direction that I imagined it would a few years ago.
PS:WTF FERRARI!? What the hell have they done to their design team T-T
Pah! Weight concerns?
You go tell that to Ford, with their 4,800 lb Explorer "SUV" that can barely tow its own weight.
Saab is more dead than Opel, but that being said Opel may not be far behind.
Good to see you back commodore!
[quote=NSXType-R;982523]Pah! Weight concerns?
You go tell that to Ford, with their 4,800 lb Explorer "SUV" that can barely tow its own weight.
Saab is more dead than Opel, but that being said Opel may not be far behind.[/quote]
Opel / Vauxhall are only failing due to the "unique" way GM calculates it's finances...
to summarize where automotive things have gone wrong, I made this shot of an A110 and some Mercedes Coupe visibly suffering from elephantiasis..... probably the Alpine will outrun the Mercedes on any secondary road.
[url="http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/gallery/28647/These-are-to-scale.html"]These are to scale - Ultimatecarpage.com - Images, Specifications and Information[/url]
[quote=henk4;982874]to summarize where automotive things have gone wrong, I made this shot of an A110 and some Mercedes Coupe visibly suffering from elephantiasis..... probably the Alpine will outrun the Mercedes on any secondary road.
[url="http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/gallery/28647/These-are-to-scale.html"]These are to scale - Ultimatecarpage.com - Images, Specifications and Information[/url][/quote]
Generally, I wholeheartedly agree with your point...however although your examples are indeed both coupés, they're not the same "kind" of car and not really that comparable. Comparing the A110 to a 991 would sure be interesting though (especially as according to the motoring press, the 991 has become too fat, to sedate and has lost it's magic)!
[quote=Clivey;982943]Generally, I wholeheartedly agree with your point...however although your examples are indeed both coupés, they're not the same "kind" of car and not really that comparable. Comparing the A110 to a 991 would sure be interesting though (especially as according to the motoring press, the 991 has become too fat, to sedate and has lost it's magic)![/quote]
But I doubt it'll have trouble running down the Alpine on any road...
[quote=henk4;982874]to summarize where automotive things have gone wrong, I made this shot of an A110 and some Mercedes Coupe visibly suffering from elephantiasis..... probably the Alpine will outrun the Mercedes on any secondary road.
[url="http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/gallery/28647/These-are-to-scale.html"]These are to scale - Ultimatecarpage.com - Images, Specifications and Information[/url][/quote]
Well even normal cars too. A new USDM Civic is about the same size if not larger as a 2nd generation Accord.
[quote=RacingManiac;982944]But I doubt it'll have trouble running down the Alpine on any road...[/quote]
...unless it has really tight width restrictors. ;)
Does anyone remember this car?
[url="http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/car/1958/Toyota-Volta.html"]2004 Toyota Volta - Images, Specifications and Information[/url]
I still think it's pretty awesome looking.
And I'd be pretty happy if Toyota came up with a production car variant of it, sort of as the LF-A for the Toyota brand and sell it for around 100 grand, maybe make it a 2 seater just to be practical.
And what a nice set of BBS wheels on it too.
I was just reading [URL="http://www.autozine.org/Archive/Renault/old/Avantime.html"]an old report[/URL] about the Renault Avantime, praising how amazing and new it was. The last sentence of the report is "It shows us how the future may be."
Shame it was such a colossal failure. I always rather liked it, at least in theory. I've never driven, sat in or seen one.. but I'd like to.
We were driven around France in an Avantime when they were new... it was like a space ship. Very cool ride. A pillarless minivan was just too different to be successful. Renault brought the similar Vel Satis to market at roughly the same time which didn't help either... with Matra struggling, Renault chose to stop building the Avantime.
[quote=pimento;983035]I was just reading [URL="http://www.autozine.org/Archive/Renault/old/Avantime.html"]an old report[/URL] about the Renault Avantime, praising how amazing and new it was. The last sentence of the report is "It shows us how the future may be."
Shame it was such a colossal failure. I always rather liked it, at least in theory. I've never driven, sat in or seen one.. but I'd like to.[/quote]
[quote=csl177;983036]We were driven around France in an Avantime when they were new... it was like a space ship. Very cool ride. A pillarless minivan was just too different to be successful. Renault brought the similar Vel Satis to market at roughly the same time which didn't help either... with Matra struggling, Renault chose to stop building the Avantime.[/quote]
Hmm, maybe I'm in the minority but I really don't see the appeal of an Avantime. A minivan-sized vehicle that seats 4? sure there's the cool panoramic roof, the stepped seating arrangement, the cool engineering in the doors, and perhaps the nicely designed cargo space.
Can anyone compare the size of the car to an American sedan just so I can fathom how large it really is? And was it good on gas?
Seems like they tried to make it like a practical SUV, although on the other hand, your article reminds me of the Pontiac Aztek- a really ugly car on the outside, but apparently a very well laid out car on the inside. Also, for those who bought the car, they were really happy with the car. Unfortunately, the same could be said about the Accord Crosstour.
I'm still baffled at the design of the new Crosstour. What we need is a USDM sized Accord wagon not another CUV. Why can't Honda seize the opportunity and give us what we want? Make AWD an option, add a 6 speed manual across the range, and the option of a 4 cylinder or a 6 cylinder car. It's really not that hard, and it doesn't even need to look awesome- it just needs to work really well for it to sell like crazy. And if they're really trying to please the enthusiasts, sell a 4 door hatchback sporty version of the sedan. Remember a time when cars came in multiple variants?
Avantime: Size (L / W / H / WB) mm 4642 / 1830 / 1630 / 2702
New Chevy Malibu: Size (L / W / H / WB) mm 4860 / 1855 / 1465 / 2737
So about the same, but taller.
Found out this site in the internets.
It contains insteresting information on the development of cars as well as trends (like the americans and the japanese taking on the germans).
[url="http://ateupwithmotor.com/"]Ate Up With Motor[/url]
Something on the topic of what we were discussing-
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8h_IcLn4JSg&feature=g-all-u"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8h_IcLn4JSg&feature=g-all-u[/ame]
Interestin video. Thanks for sharing.
I think they are right in many aspects. I'm personally not against technology per se, especially if it can improve safety, performance or economy, but I'm most definitely against technology that takes away the enjoyment of driving a car.
The problem is that car enthusiasts are small minority of the car buying public (and in fact not all of them are actually in the car buying market at all), but even worse than that is that many of those enthusiasts think that an Audi S/RS model complete with dual clutch gearbox and everything is good performance car.
So we are in the minority of the minority and that makes it very difficult. I'm afraid it's becoming a lost battle.
On an unrelated note, it seems like there are those who think that US car manufacturers should pull the plug completely on their European operations, what's the general opinion here?
[url="http://www.autoblog.com/2012/06/29/should-gm-and-ford-give-up-on-selling-cars-in-europe/"]Should GM and Ford give up on selling cars in Europe?[/url]
I think it would be exceedingly myopic for Ford to leave Europe entirely. They aren't losing [I]that[/I] much money, and I think with the closing of a few plants they could probably be made profitable again, or at least resume breaking even.
Opel/Vauxhall seems to be in a weaker position and some fairly draconian belt tightening by the General seems to be the only way for them to continue European production. I don't know much about GM Yurp because they don't make any cars that interest me. So I can't justify my opinions regarding Opel very well then, but from all I've read they need to do something pretty drastic.
The domestic manufacturers also need to axe a few plants because they are producing at one billion percent over demand.
It will be interesting to see this situation unfold and I hope as few people are hurt and as few marques are lost as possible in the process.
I think that it's actually interesting to see the figures to put a bit of perspective into it. The Autoblog article says that Ford is the second best-selling car maker in Europe but, at least this year, it isn't. See page four of the attached PDF.
If we consider standalone brands then Ford is indeed the second best selling manufacturer, but I think this is short sighted and that groups should be considered as a whole. On that basis, even GME outsells Ford and Ford itself is placed fifth overall behind VW Group, PSA, Renault and GME. So perhaps if we only looked at sales figures they aren't that strong of a position, altough it isn't bad at all. Of the european heavyweights, only Fiat is behind in terms of sales figures.
Furthermore if they were to really exit the market their reputations would be probably heavily damaged making a future reentry very difficult and expensive for their respective parent companies. Let's not forget that despite the crisis and everything, Europe as a whole is still a pretty large market (3rd biggest in the world if I'm not mistaken).
However a very different story is unfolded if we look at the cars they make. Or, in other words, can GM and Ford really afford to lose all the engineering expertise derived from the R+D conducted in their European facilities? Both Buick and Chevrolet use Opel derived vehicles in both US and Chinese markets and Fords global Fiesta and Focus are basically European developped cars.
The good thing about the European market is that being one of the most demanding in the world it forces car makers to produce high quality cars which are sometimes easier to sell than cars from other parts of the world to Europe. However this can arguably also bring "desnaturalisation" of European GM and Ford products to Europe causing in reaction a less favourable opinion of the products in the original markets they were created for.
Another different question is the actual production process of these cars. Can this still be carried out in Europe? Possibly yes, but factories need to undergo adjustments to make the profitable again as they were sized for a market that no longer exists, and that maybe will never exist again in terms of volume. This aspect is probably the ones than needs the greatest changes and almost surely the ones that will be the most painful to Europeans.
[quote=Ferrer;986019]Interestin video. Thanks for sharing.
I think they are right in many aspects. I'm personally not against technology per se, especially if it can improve safety, performance or economy, but I'm most definitely against technology that takes away the enjoyment of driving a car.
The problem is that car enthusiasts are small minority of the car buying public (and in fact not all of them are actually in the car buying market at all), but even worse than that is that many of those enthusiasts think that an Audi S/RS model complete with dual clutch gearbox and everything is good performance car.
So we are in the minority of the minority and that makes it very difficult. I'm afraid it's becoming a lost battle.
On an unrelated note, it seems like there are those who think that US car manufacturers should pull the plug completely on their European operations, what's the general opinion here?
[url="http://www.autoblog.com/2012/06/29/should-gm-and-ford-give-up-on-selling-cars-in-europe/"]Should GM and Ford give up on selling cars in Europe?[/url][/quote]
I also agree with the points they have made. Forget about driving dynamics, I feel like cars haven't gotten better looking at all- look at Acura and BMW.
On a side note, I alarmingly see more drivers on the phone or texting. I feel like cars these days are too disconnected from the road. Drivers don't feel like they're a massive projectile anymore. They don't see driving as a privilege, they see it more as a right.
I'm not sure if it's because cars are boring, or driving exams are too easy, but it scares me that drivers are distracted and I feel like they don't respect the fact that they could cause a massive accident. It's a different mentality than drinking and driving I feel, and there's no easy way to address it.
Honestly, if more cars were manual transmission cars, there would be no chance for drivers to text and drive because they're more involved.
And on the idea of Ford pulling out of Europe, I think that's stupid. I haven't read the article, but that's like saying Ferrari should pull out of selling cars in the Americas and stay in Europe only.
Ford as a company is way more healthy than GM is. GM just has too much sprawl and unfortunately I feel like they could close Opel and Vauxhaul. It's a shame as both companies have great histories, but for the company to survive as a whole there's just too much overlap and not enough distinction. Either that or stop selling Chevy and Cadillacs in Europe.
Ford on the other hand isn't completely out of the woods- they have no idea how to make Lincoln a distinct brand from Ford even after closing Mercury and if they think badge engineering Fords into Lincolns is going to work they'll be in for a big surprise.
But then again, Ford was always the most healthy of the 3 American car companies, so I still hope they'll be around for some time being.
[quote=NSXType-R;986035] I also agree with the points they have made. Forget about driving dynamics, I feel like cars haven't gotten better looking at all- look at Acura and BMW. [/quote]
I don’t think they look particularly bad but they are increasingly samey. If that is possible.
[IMG]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-1ikIqgevtSc/TfN0dgmLEmI/AAAAAAAAAZU/VbTblswf0Oo/s1600/2011-Mazda6-facelift-4%255B1%255D.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://images-2.drive.com.au/2011/12/08/2825150/2012-toyota-camry_600-600x400.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://www.themotorreport.com.au/content/image/2/0/2012_honda_accord_euro_european_market_04-4d742c9db66b5.jpg[/IMG]
[quote=NSXType-R;986035] On a side note, I alarmingly see more drivers on the phone or texting. I feel like cars these days are too disconnected from the road. Drivers don't feel like they're a massive projectile anymore. They don't see driving as a privilege, they see it more as a right. I'm not sure if it's because cars are boring, or driving exams are too easy, but it scares me that drivers are distracted and I feel like they don't respect the fact that they could cause a massive accident. It's a different mentality than drinking and driving I feel, and there's no easy way to address it.
[/quote] I don’t see driving as a privilege either but I do see it as a serious responsibility. Too many “drivers” perform the task as though it was nothing more than writing a text message. It is the most dangerous thing most of us do each day and too many do not treat it as such. I don’t think it is the cars fault as much as the familiarity we get with it. Most of us do it every day and with familiarity comes contempt. Only since I have become older and been involved in near misses and seen others not so lucky and had my mortality presented to me have I also come to respect just how serious driving a car can be. We all need the wakeup call as early as we can get it.
[quote=NSXType-R;986035]
And on the idea of Ford pulling out of Europe, I think that's stupid. I haven't read the article, but that's like saying Ferrari should pull out of selling cars in the Americas and stay in Europe only.
Ford as a company is way more healthy than GM is. GM just has too much sprawl and unfortunately I feel like they could close Opel and Vauxhaul. It's a shame as both companies have great histories, but for the company to survive as a whole there's just too much overlap and not enough distinction. Either that or stop selling Chevy and Cadillacs in Europe.
Ford on the other hand isn't completely out of the woods- they have no idea how to make Lincoln a distinct brand from Ford even after closing Mercury and if they think badge engineering Fords into Lincolns is going to work they'll be in for a big surprise.
But then again, Ford was always the most healthy of the 3 American car companies, so I still hope they'll be around for some time being. [/quote] 10 years and probably 90% of vehicle manufacturing will be done in China and probably India anyway.
[quote=crisis;986037]
I don’t see driving as a privilege either but I do see it as a serious responsibility. Too many “drivers” perform the task as though it was nothing more than writing a text message. It is the most dangerous thing most of us do each day and too many do not treat it as such. I don’t think it is the cars fault as much as the familiarity we get with it. Most of us do it every day and with familiarity comes contempt. Only since I have become older and been involved in near misses and seen others not so lucky and had my mortality presented to me have I also come to respect just how serious driving a car can be. We all need the wakeup call as early as we can get it.
10 years and probably 90% of vehicle manufacturing will be done in China and probably India anyway.[/quote]
It's odd that you don't see it as a privilege because the ultimate deciding factor on whether or not you have a license or not is the government. Obviously you need to be caught doing something wrong in order to get it revoked, but just because you seem to get away with it all the time (texting and talking while on the phone) doesn't make it any more legitimate.
You're probably right, manufacturing probably will move to India. China already has a growing middle class and they're already demanding higher wages. I'm curious about one thing however- what happens when there's an established middle class around the world? Does the economy implode? :D
In the future cars will probably be made in Vietnam or the Philippines.
[quote=NSXType-R;986040]It's odd that you don't see it as a privilege because the ultimate deciding factor on whether or not you have a license or not is the government. [/quote]
I have a philosophical problem with someone else being given the right to decide what a right is for me and what a privilege is. I can’t think of anything else we do that regardless of what laws apply that is considered a privilege. We live in what are supposed to be free societies. We are governed by laws but in no case that I can think of is anything we do considered a privilege other than driving.
We buy the car as we would buy a TV. It is not considered a privilege to own a TV. We pay for the roads indirectly through all manner of taxes. We pay for registration and a license. It is not considered a privilege to be able to ride a bike on the roads even though they use the roads motorists pay for.
Basically I believe we a cajoled into accepting driving as a privilege so governments can issue and revoke licenses as they see fit, make the laws as they see fit and administer the regulations and conditions in which we drive with utter impunity. And they don’t do it very well but as long as it is a privilege to drive they don’t have to,
[quote=NSXType-R;986040]
You're probably right, manufacturing probably will move to India. China already has a growing middle class and they're already demanding higher wages. I'm curious about one thing however- what happens when there's an established middle class around the world? Does the economy implode? :D
In the future cars will probably be made in Vietnam or the Philippines. [/quote]
Ha ha. Maybe China will get bypassed altogether. Maybe there will be a point where the middle class of the third world is as well of as the rest. That would be cool. Then we might see manufacturing back in this country again!
[quote=NSXType-R;986035]I also agree with the points they have made. Forget about driving dynamics, I feel like cars haven't gotten better looking at all- look at Acura and BMW.[/quote]
I think the lately BMW have been on an improving path. Not quite as good looking as they used to be, but better than the Bangle cars. I even like the 3er, it lloks like it has some of the presence of the 80's BMWs and the 6er Grand Coupe, while not as good looking as it could've been, exudes charisma and presence.
[quote=NSXType-R;986035]And on the idea of Ford pulling out of Europe, I think that's stupid. I haven't read the article, but that's like saying Ferrari should pull out of selling cars in the Americas and stay in Europe only.[/quote]
There's a crucial difference though, Ford (and GM) are losing money in Europe, while Ferrari isn't losing money in the US (or anywhere else, for that matter).
[quote=NSXType-R;986040]You're probably right, manufacturing probably will move to India. China already has a growing middle class and they're already demanding higher wages. I'm curious about one thing however- what happens when there's an established middle class around the world? Does the economy implode? :D
In the future cars will probably be made in Vietnam or the Philippines.[/quote]
[quote=crisis;986052]Ha ha. Maybe China will get bypassed altogether. Maybe there will be a point where the middle class of the third world is as well of as the rest. That would be cool. Then we might see manufacturing back in this country again![/quote]
One of the important points to decide where to put a car factory is a strong internal demand. So if a certain country [I]buys cars[/I] they will increase their chances of getting a car factory.
[quote=crisis;986052]I have a philosophical problem with someone else being given the right to decide what a right is for me and what a privilege is. I can’t think of anything else we do that regardless of what laws apply that is considered a privilege. We live in what are supposed to be free societies. We are governed by laws but in no case that I can think of is anything we do considered a privilege other than driving.
We buy the car as we would buy a TV. It is not considered a privilege to own a TV. We pay for the roads indirectly through all manner of taxes. We pay for registration and a license. It is not considered a privilege to be able to ride a bike on the roads even though they use the roads motorists pay for.
Basically I believe we a cajoled into accepting driving as a privilege so governments can issue and revoke licenses as they see fit, make the laws as they see fit and administer the regulations and conditions in which we drive with utter impunity. And they don’t do it very well but as long as it is a privilege to drive they don’t have to,
Ha ha. Maybe China will get bypassed altogether. Maybe there will be a point where the middle class of the third world is as well of as the rest. That would be cool. Then we might see manufacturing back in this country again![/quote]
There's a big difference between a TV and a car and a bike (I'm assuming bicycle). You can't seriously hurt anyone with a bicycle or a TV, unless you drop a plugged in TV into a bathtub while someone's in it. A car is different and there are certain rules and regulations and procedures that you need to follow and learn in order to operate it safely. That's why you don't need to apply for a license to operate a TV. I'm not exactly sure why, but CB radio is also controlled by licenses as well, probably because it's specialised machinery.
Indirectly, the roads a bike uses is already paid for through the taxes on your property you live on and other things, like income taxes. That's why there's no additional fee for registration. Also, the taxes pay for repair maintenance of the roads around your country. Admittedly the repairs can be of poor quality, but I'm sure it's not feasible for you to repair all the roads by yourself.
The growing middle class has caused quite a large demand on oil. I'm not saying that they don't deserve oil, as we certainly have used more than our fair share, but it has caused strains in production and pricing for sure. Here's hoping that they find a good replacement. Algae seems to be the next good biofuel.
[quote=Ferrer;986068]I think the lately BMW have been on an improving path. Not quite as good looking as they used to be, but better than the Bangle cars. I even like the 3er, it lloks like it has some of the presence of the 80's BMWs and the 6er Grand Coupe, while not as good looking as it could've been, exudes charisma and presence.
There's a crucial difference though, Ford (and GM) are losing money in Europe, while Ferrari isn't losing money in the US (or anywhere else, for that matter).
One of the important points to decide where to put a car factory is a strong internal demand. So if a certain country [I]buys cars[/I] they will increase their chances of getting a car factory.[/quote]
Although Ford is losing money in Europe, it's probably not the first time they've lost money in Europe. I'm not aware of their sales trends, is this a particularly bad slide? Some of their best products are designed and sold in Europe, it would be a shame to lose that creative side that the American side seems to lack, even though it's an American company.
Just because they have a bad day doesn't mean they should pull out completely on a whim.
That's a good point, I think Honda was one of the first Japanese manufacturers to build a bespoke plant in America to get around importation laws.
[quote=NSXType-R;986073]Although Ford is losing money in Europe, it's probably not the first time they've lost money in Europe. I'm not aware of their sales trends, is this a particularly bad slide? Some of their best products are designed and sold in Europe, it would be a shame to lose that creative side that the American side seems to lack, even though it's an American company.
Just because they have a bad day doesn't mean they should pull out completely on a whim.[/quote]
Indeed, and I would even say that despite the sales decrease and the lost money, Ford is still a very big player in Europe and Europe is an important market for them. GM is a different story, even though as we said they sell more as a group than Ford does in Europe. Let me explain.
Ford's strategy in Europe has also been very clear, all they sold and produce were "Fords", and has been this way through pretty much the world for all their mainstream cars at least. This has helped them market cars and make it more understanable for the general public. Furthermore except for some experiments (the early Mercury Capri and the Merkurs) EDM Fords have been sold in other parts of the world as Fords themselves right from the original Mondeo to the latest Focus (even more so after the demise of Mercury some years ago).
General Motors' strategy has always been much more confusing, starting from the division/class system in the US and continuing with the different brands with which they stablished themselves in overseas markets (by buying them, Opel in Germany/continental Europe, Vauxhall in the UK, Holden in Australia, Daewoo in Korea/Asia,...). This has made marketing much more difficult across different geographies because a car that was sold under certain brand in a particular are was sold as a different one in another area.
But if we speak about General Motors problems, and particularly about their European operations, there's another more important problem to be considered than the ones mentioned above. This problem is that ever since GM decided to introduce Chevrolet in Europe in a full on assault (more than importing a few SUVs, muscle cars and sports cars as they used to do in the olden days that is) Opel and Chevrolet have started going after what basically is the same customer. Arguably the idea is that Chevrolet should cater for the lower end of the market while Opel goes for the middle-class demography, but while this class system may work/have worked for them in the US, the differences are simply negligible in the European market. Quite possibly Opels are slitghly better products than EDM Chevrolets (altough it remains to be seen if the new Malibu will shrink this gap even more) but the fact of the matter is that at the end day the differences are too small to justify the price difference that there is between them (By the way, this is also a problem that could affect Hyundai/Kia in the long term, but that's another story).
So basically Chevrolet has come to compete basically on Opel's playground, and due to the brand/geography structure we discussed earlier Opel has little elsewhere to go to expand their sales volume. On that basis I can certainly see the concerns that Opel poses to GM corporate altough it could be argued that they actually shoot themselves in the foot in the first place.
Ferrer, I agree- add in Saab, Monaro and Cadillac and you get a very big mess in Europe. Saab and Opel probably go for the same customer base. I remember Cadillac was introduced to Europe, but I don't remember if they are still "around". Even if Saab isn't a GM owned entity anymore, it doesn't mean they don't compete with GM products.
In Europe GM seems to have way too many brands available to buy. With the economic downturn, I don't think it's smart to keep so many brands around.
GMC is a stupid brand in America too- they used to be a distinct brand, but now they're just badge engineered Chevys.
GM started acquiring lots of brands very early on in its existance- Pontiac was one of their early acquisitions but I think owning a large number of marques is now a very large liability.
In Europe USDM GM cars are pretty much inexistent, despite their insistence on trying to sell them to us. Even Cadillac fares poorly despite the CTS being competent (if unsuited to Europe) and the preposterous attempt at a rebadged Saab called the BLS. Maybe the ATS will change things, but that is still to be seen.
As for Saab I think it plays(ed) in a different league. If the job had been done properly Saab could have become a proper premium brand, perhaps not in the German way, but certainly like Volvo, and Volvo sort of works. We already discussed it in the Saab thread, but I'd say that GM simply failed to grasp the potential Saab had.