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[quote=Ferrer;973232]Exactly.
I'm more concerned by lack of Mustangs and Challengers, though.[/quote]
We are now in Monterry using a Mustang GT...apart from the " thrill" you get when flooring it, it is not a car that would score high on my wish list for cars to import to Europe...after the " thrill" there is the constant thrubbing sound of the V8 which becomes rather irritating and then there is an absolute lack of any ride comfort. Maybe I am too old for a " sports-car".
and to answer Kitdy, the Mustang is only a marginal car in the big picture trend.
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[quote=henk4;973210]Please explain why that is a criterion for including cars that are relevant.[/quote]
I'm not saying they're not relevant, I can't consider them if I ever wish to purchase them in North America right?
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[quote=NSXType-R;973245]I'm not saying they're not relevant, I can't consider them if I ever wish to purchase them in North America right?[/quote]
yes, but when we are discusing the state of the car, is it a criterion whether a car is available in the USA or not?
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[quote=RacingManiac;973236]IMO, my advice in general for something like that is don't make it your restricting criteria. If you are moving stuff like that every day its another story(in which case you would need a van), but you move in and out of a dorm once or twice a year(I lived in a Dorm for 3 years in my college years), just get a buddy or parents to help you at the time, or rent a U-Haul. You don't want to be saddled with a car for that purpose alone and spoiled your fun rest of the time....especially if you are buying your own car.[/quote]
Well I also have to take in account I have a large family too. But I'll keep an eye out for other options too.
[quote=henk4;973246]yes, but when we are discusing the state of the car, is it a criterion whether a car is available in the USA or not?[/quote]
Then no.
However, I feel the state of the car in the US is particularly worse than in anywhere else. I feel we're still SUV happy and the focus groups still think we like, need and want SUVs and crossovers. That's not really happening too much in Europe just because the streets are too narrow and you get better MPVs.
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[quote=NSXType-R;973247]Then no.
However, I feel the state of the car in the US is particularly worse than in anywhere else. I feel we're still SUV happy and the focus groups still think we like, need and want SUVs and crossovers. That's not really happening too much in Europe just because the streets are too narrow and you get better MPVs.[/quote]
SUVs have slitghly increased in number here too, once you had offerings from non-premium makers. However with size constraints, as you mention, but especially fuel prices they certainly haven't caught up as much as in the US probably. There's also the type of roads we have to drive on.
Bear in mind though that the Nissan Qashqai is a best selling car in Europe.
[quote=henk4;973242]We are now in Monterry using a Mustang GT...apart from the " thrill" you get when flooring it, it is not a car that would score high on my wish list for cars to import to Europe...after the " thrill" there is the constant thrubbing sound of the V8 which becomes rather irritating and then there is an absolute lack of any ride comfort. Maybe I am too old for a " sports-car".[/quote]
Much like the Mini then, only with a better sound and more oomph and probably worse handling.
I'd want to lay my hands on a Boss 302 and use it here, see how it copes.
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[quote=Ferrer;973248]
Bear in mind though that the Nissan Qashqai is a best selling car in Europe.
[/quote]
a WELL selling car of THE best selling car?
And getting older I am increasingly understanding why people want to sit a little higher, and that is not so much because of the actual seating position, but just for easy access, you don't have to fold yourself in or out of the car.
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Also, by sitting higher up(more up right) it gives you a feel of more airy/roominess.....Which is why MPV style car, even though their foot print maybe no more than the compact that they are based on, they feel more spacious....
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[quote=henk4;973267]a WELL selling car of THE best selling car?
And getting older I am increasingly understanding why people want to sit a little higher, and that is not so much because of the actual seating position, but just for easy access, you don't have to fold yourself in or out of the car.[/quote]
4th best YTD in Spain so far.
Second SUV is the Dacia Duster a long way behind.
For the easy acess there's always the MPV. Or the BMW 5er GT, should you be so inclined.
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[quote=Ferrer;973269]4th best YTD in Spain so far.
Second SUV is the Dacia Duster a long way behind.
For the easy acess there's always the MPV. Or the BMW 5er GT, should you be so inclined.[/quote]
and there is of course the C5/C6, which you can pump up before you get in, should you be inclined.....
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I'm still waiting for some bright mother****er to actually build an Atkinson-Diesel. The technology is here. VVT, VarioGeometry Turbos, and refinements to the Atkinson engine have made hybrids (I shudder to say this) a success, at least in part.
I am however a firm believer in that hybrids are merely a trend. Rather than either develop the IC engine further (such as the Atkinson-Diesel i have mentioned) or the Electric Vehicle, companies are settling on a less than optimal compromise. The prius yields only slightly better than average highway milage (I'm talking for the USA here, I know for a fact European diesels such as the Polo Blue Motion eclipse its milage by 100%, literally). The new LEAF yields only a 120 mile range. Good for cities yes, but I know for a fact that Americans will not be content with being chained to a power outlet. For what they are, EVs of today are for overpriced. The technology of the EV can be stretched with the majesty of carbon fiber and perhaps solar power, but even then they will still be high priced and will still have a very limited range.
I applaud Fiats Twin Air Twin Cylinder Engine. Nothing in my eyes is more ideal using todays technology.
I want to see the revetec continue its development, and am praying to see it in a production car within 15 years. And maybe if the stars align just right, it will be in air cooled Atkinson-Diesel trim
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[quote=Magnum9987;973274]I applaud Fiats Twin Air Twin Cylinder Engine. Nothing in my eyes is more ideal using todays technology.[/quote]
Test have actually shown that it's very sensible to throttle usage, and not all that frugal. The smaller TSi also got mixed results. Suprisingly (or not) one of the cars that got better results was the conventional Auris 1.6 Valvematic.
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All German cars have better "driving" features. All non-German cars have better "non-driving" features.
Discuss.
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GTR > All German.... /discussion....
lol
I guess there are some merit to it. Looking at the Americanized Jetta, even the bare bone model(I think its available for $14.9k USD, the 2.0 4 banger). It still has ABS, ESP, and TCS, even when it has no AC, or radio. I think a lot of Japanese econoboxes still has those as options, aside from maybe ABS. The presence of those being good or bad is debatable amongst enthusiasts, but definitely has value for average drivers.
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I was thinking more in terms of hardware v gadgets and the general feel of the car. Lately I've been driving the Lancia Delta a lot, over 400km this week, and will continue to do so for the rest of the week. Being "reunited" with it I've "relearnt" that is a very nice car to go places in. The radio is excellent, the glass roof and opening sunroof, the seats, the suspension everything is geared towards making your journey easy and comfortable. However the steering is silly, the brakes stupid, it rolls badly, visibility is bad and it's been far too supersized to be driven in anything other than an easy open road.
Pretty much all of the german cars I've driven have been the exact opposite. Even the hateful Audis seem to have been designed to sustain high speeds and demanding driving conditions, if you gloss over the their understeer and the dead steering on some of them, but the brakes, steering, suspension and everything else certainly are geared towards it. Not to mention Mercs and nevermind BMWs. And yet they are less joyful and pleasing to go places with them. Gadgets and equipment seem to be worse and the ones that may be worthy cost a fortune.
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I think it has to do with also maybe their national standard for certification? Not knowing if there are any testing standard difference from TUV vs something like NHTSA, I am assuming since cars from Germany are rated to go on Autobahn, which means operating safety at the terminal speed of the car, which means it needs to have good high speed stability, good braking stability, ability to handle road disturbance at speed, and just a general confidence building demeanor at speed, that it trickles down and generally lead them to be better suited for enthusiasts vailue?
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[quote=RacingManiac;973312]I think it has to do with also maybe their national standard for certification? Not knowing if there are any testing standard difference from TUV vs something like NHTSA, I am assuming since cars from Germany are rated to go on Autobahn, which means operating safety at the terminal speed of the car, which means it needs to have good high speed stability, good braking stability, ability to handle road disturbance at speed, and just a general confidence building demeanor at speed, that it trickles down and generally lead them to be better suited for enthusiasts vailue?[/quote]
I think these "abilities" in german cars are vastly overrated. What you mention there is pretty much what every European car (German/French/Italian) can produce and probably most Japanese car as well.
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We have 2 Peugeot 407 at work here(yes in US), we were developing some suspension system for those car as Peugeot was a customer interested in the system. When we finished the demo car and brought it back to Europe for demonstration to multiple EU OEMs(mostly Germans), they are all puzzled why we picked such a below average car for demo car. So even though we demonstrated vastly improved dynamics, they are not impressed as the stock car is rubbish....
I don't know if that is a common theme with French cars, but I guess the German think so....I am not the driver so I have no idea if the actual feel behind the wheel...
Personally, my only yard stick is what I've driven. Some decent Japanese cars(Infiniti G and Ms,), some appliance(Camry), and my current car, the GTI. The Infiniti is good. They are stable, good handling, but slightly incoherent near limit. Toyota is rubbish all together. GTI is predictable and stable at speed. But granted, GTI is probably the only car I've pushed really hard on.
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The various Volvo 850s I've driven have had good brakes, good suspension, good visibility, good high speed stability/ride and good radios, so it's not just the germans.
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[quote=RacingManiac;973316]
I don't know if that is a common theme with French cars, but I guess the German think so....[/quote]
you just said it....
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[quote=pimento;973317]The various Volvo 850s I've driven have had good brakes, good suspension, good visibility, good high speed stability/ride and good radios, so it's not just the germans.[/quote]
The Mini has an average radio, a sat nav system that's not simple, impossible suspension and there is pretty much no space in the back at all. However everything that's related to driving is top notch.
I also remember the Renault Scènic Mk 1 we had ages ago. Again, a nice place to be. But if you wanted to test the laws of physics not the car to be in. and something similar can be said for the Hyundai. Despite the entertaining handling, I must admit.
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Another thing in favour of german cars, as far as driving is concerned, is that they don't seem to have suffered from the supersizing trend as much as other cars.
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Just curious- why can the Hyundai Accent reach 40 mpg highway while the Fiat 500 only gets 32 mpg highway?
These are EPA figures of course, but the price of both cars is approximately the same, but the Hyundai seems to be the better buy, just on the fact that the Hyundai is a bigger car.
Forget about driving dynamics, I'm looking at it from an appliance standpoint.
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EPA testing inaccuracies? The Hyundai was probably developed with those tests in mind, whereas the Fiat would've been looking towards Euro tests.
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Aerodynamics probably, as well as taller gear ratios and a more efficient engine maybe. Those are the possible explanations I can think of.
From the appliance point of view a Panda or a Punto are far better options than the 500. Maybe even a MiTo.
By the way, does anyone know if the following actually translates to real life? When there are several cars based on the same mechanical hardware it's usually the more expensive that gets the best advertised performance and fuel consumption, is it true when you drive them on the road or are it's just better official figures and nothing else?
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There are probably citable examples that will 'prove' it both ways. There are many variables in the castle.
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I would like to test pairs of cars to see if it really does happen or not. Like A3 v Octavia, C30 v Focus or the aforementioned MiTo v Punto.
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Or Prius vs CT200h....
On that Hyundai vs Fiat thing, maybe Hyundai does a more US style gearing and has a really tall top gear?
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Having the gear ratios would help, altough in eco conscious commie Euroland gear ratios are getting taller as well, sometimes ridiculously.
Also, are we comparing manuals or automatics? And what sort of engines?
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Its really vehicle dependent I find.....my old Camry was a 4 speed auto and 4th gear was a tall overdrive for the 2.2 liter 4 that makes only 130bhp. But that means at 85-90mph, I am still under 3000 rpm, and I am still getting over 30mpg. At that point though you'll be hard pressed to pass someone in 4th, so pretty much any kind of tip-in on the throttle the car will kick down to 3rd....My dad's G35 with its 5 speed auto at the same speed is pretty similar in rpm, but relative to that motor the car can still pull pretty hard at speed and I think it actually may be geared close to the limited top speed of 145mph. A rental 04 Pontiac Grand Prix I drove once with its 4 speed, electronically limited to 110mph, in 4th I think its turning @ 2500 rpm, driving at 110mph.....
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Well, I've never driven a car (properly and that I can recall) with a manual gearbox that does not achieve its top speed in top gear and that has a overdrive ratio. As a result you always have a reserve of acceleration even in 5th or 6th. However, sometimes I wonder if, in terms of fuel consumption, it's better to floor it in top gear or drop a gear or two and push less the loud pedal to achieve similar acceleration.
This is less relevant in automatic, in my opinion, since it's the car which will decide which gear is best for a given amount of acceleration (altough now you can choose gear manually, but the system can still override you sometimes).
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Don't lug the engine unless you have to....downshift if you have rev to spare...
I think even Corvette in US have such a ridiculously tall top gear that you hit top speed in 5th rather than 6th.
Newer cars with like 7 or 8 speed box, I think they can afford to make the extra gear overdrive for economy...
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I think the manual EDM Camaro SS has a 67km/h @ 1000rpm sixth gear. I doubt any manual gearbox, petrol engined european car has something comparable or that gets even close, supercars excepted.
As a comparison those are the speeds every 1000rpm in sixth for the EDM Corvettes:
-Standard: 73km/h
-Grand Sport: 72,5km/h
-Z06: 72,5km/h
-ZR1: 53,2km/h
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The average speed of [I]America's 5 Fastest Roads[/I] is laughable.
[url="http://www.autoblog.com/2011/08/23/in-a-hurry-try-one-of-americas-5-fastest-roads/"]In a hurry? Try one of Americas 5 Fastest Roads[/url]
Discuss.
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Consider most of those road probably have posted limit less than the actual average speed....they are already pretty fast...
We don't have the EU's higher speed limit aside from some states further south(in MI highway limit is 70mph, or 112km/h), and some interstates here I'd be afraid of going too fast mainly for the poor condition they are in, and I think a general lack of competence/awareness of the drivers here...
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[quote=RacingManiac;973656] and I think a general lack of competence/awareness of the drivers here...[/quote]
correct....indicators? mwah....rear mirrors: to check your hair...merging? what's that?
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Yeah no kidding, I saw a woman on my drive to work doing a U-turn into traffic while still texting on the freaking phone....
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[quote=RacingManiac;973658]Yeah no kidding, I saw a woman on my drive to work doing a U-turn into traffic while still texting on the freaking phone....[/quote]
I had a good discussion with a member of the California Highway Police the other day while waiting for the Pebble Tour Cars to come by. The use of the cell phone while driving seems to be one of things that they very keenly after and a ticket is about 200 dollar (first offence). He also mentioned that not wearing a safety belt was still an issue. He once had stopped a man who said his belt did not work, because when pulling it down it got stuck. It already did not work for 14 years...however the CHP officer gently pulled the belt down, et voila, it worked. Yet the driver said he had no intention to ever use it...
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[quote=RacingManiac;973656]Consider most of those road probably have posted limit less than the actual average speed....they are already pretty fast...
We don't have the EU's higher speed limit aside from some states further south(in MI highway limit is 70mph, or 112km/h), and some interstates here I'd be afraid of going too fast mainly for the poor condition they are in, and I think a general lack of competence/awareness of the drivers here...[/quote]
Well, the posted speed limits here aren't that much higher (120km/h or 75mph), but the actual average speed, of all cars not the 5% fastest, of the AP-7 (the motorway that run from the French border to the Spanish border along the coast in Catalunya) is actually 134km/h or 83mph.
As for competence/awareness, apart from everything that has already been mentioned, in the states overtaking in the right lane/s isn't forbidden, is it?
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[quote=Ferrer;973662]
As for competence/awareness, apart from everything that has already been mentioned, in the states overtaking in the right lane/s isn't forbidden, is it?[/quote]
no it is not, but there still is a general rule to keep to the right, which is many times not being adhered to. Yet the number of zig-zagging cars I noticed was rather small. So in stead of passing on the right, most drivers prefer to slow down a little and stay behind the car on the left lane.
EDIT: But driving behaviour has little to do with the state of the car, but more with all the gadgets now available in (and outside) the car
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I have driven in the States, Canada, and Scotland (briefly). I have heard anecdotally that the UK has far crazier drivers than we do (and seen them when being driven there - watch out pedestrians!), and I think I have heard that the continent is even worse.
I was talking about this the other day with my friends and we agreed that North American drivers are probably the tamest in the world.