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Thread: Wagons still the pride of the fleet ... for now

  1. #1
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    Wagons still the pride of the fleet ... for now

    By Toby Hagon
    The Age
    Wednesday June 1 2005

    Just as Ford and Holden were preparing the nails for the coffin, it seems there's life yet in the Australian wagon. TOBY HAGON reports.
    Holden will continue selling its old Commodore wagon alongside the all-new VE sedan next year while it and arch rival Ford decide whether there is a future for the large locally made family wagon.

    The decision to keep the VZ wagon will mark the first time in the Commodore's 27-year history that Holden will sell the old-shaped wagon alongside an all-new sedan and reflects the dilemma both Ford and Holden are facing regarding the future of the wagon.

    "We're going to continue to sell the VZ (wagon), we're going to continue to build VZ products while we build VE . . . until we figure out when and how we're going to replace it," says Holden chairman and managing director Denny Mooney.

    With sales of four-wheel-drive wagons going from strength to strength, the viability of the large family wagon has been under scrutiny in recent years, prompting boardroom discussions that have escalated since the arrival of the Ford Territory.

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    For many families, the more stylish and more flexible Territory fills the role of the traditional wagon and, when it arrived last year, it prompted industry pundits to forecast the demise of the wagon.

    But, now that the Territory has been on sale for a year, fresh evidence suggests there is still a solid fleet-based demand for the traditional load-lugger.

    Buoyed by figures that show there is still a demand for 20,000-odd wagons annually, Holden and Ford are in respective closed-door discussions regarding their wagons.

    "We're surprised . . . that (the Territory hasn't) drawn from the wagon - the wagon is still motoring along," says Ford Australia president Tom Gorman. "It clearly makes the argument for keeping it (the wagon) stronger because it continues to be a good solution for a certain segment of the marketplace."

    Mr Gorman says most wagon sales are to fleets, which place particular emphasis on value.

    "It really is done on a value decision, a cost-of-ownership decision. It still is the right product for that segment," he says.

    Mr Gorman says Ford still has "some time" before it has to decide the fate of the Falcon wagon.

    Holden's Mr Mooney agrees that the traditional sedan-based wagon could have a future as a fleet-oriented niche model, despite rumours that Holden is well advanced on a Territory-fighter of its own.

    "If you look at who buys the wagon today, it's predominantly the fleet customers, business customers," says Mr Mooney. "So we've got to look at that and ask 'could another product satisfy what people use those products for?'. That's the process we're going through."

    Holden is understood to have a design proposal for a "sporty" seven-seater crossover-type wagon while also having a clay model of a more traditional-style wagon - both of which could make it to production if a business case can be made.

    "We're working on another derivative already and we've got two more in the pipeline," says Mr Mooney of the next-generation Commodore, while refusing to elaborate.

    The wagon debate arrives as sales of off-road wagons - or sport utility vehicles (SUVs), as they're referred to in the industry - continue to boom.

    Wagons continue to prove popular on the used-car market, despite dwindling options for buyers. Toyota no longer builds a station wagon locally, while Mitsubishi also announced the Magna wagon will be killed off with the arrival of the sedan-only Galant in September.

    The discussions about the future of the large Australian wagon - which continues to be popular on the used-car market - come amid record 4WD sales.

    Since 1996, sales of off-roaders have trebled in a market that has grown by less than 50 per cent. Despite threatening fuel prices, sales of so-called SUVs are already up 15 per cent this year in an overall market that is up 5.1 per cent.
    I think there dead, The SUV's just need to be close and people will buy them, Some people hate SUV's and wont buy them but do they out way the people that want a SUV at just a little more then a Wagon??, Which ever is the best they will keep on i guess.
    Also in there was intresting that they said holden are well advanced on a Territory-fighter of its own? Clay models are made with a wagon design so guess if it goes through it wont be the Wagon base
    Last edited by SlickHolden; 06-01-2005 at 06:02 PM.
    "Just a matter of time i suppose"

    "The elevator is broke, So why don't you test it out"

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    Probably just localising the Daewoo S3X, making the front possibly closer in appearance to the VE etc.

    Ford are in a definate advantage here. Whilst Holden are under pressure from Ford with the Territory, and the closer release date of the VE to Fords next Falcon, they need to make the final decision soon. Ford on the otherhand, whilst some still expect a 2006 release date, are more likely to release the next Falcon in 2007, and perhaps even some variants in 2008, so theyve got at least an extra year to study the market.

    Theyre likely to still carry over the wagon, still with the live axle/leaf sprung setup for fleets, whilst Holden were always chasing sports based buyers with their wagon as the IRS lends itself better to handling rather than load carrying, so without a unique setup utilising long springs and tall spring towers, theoretically they wont be able to match the fleet appeal of the Falcon wagon, especially if a cheaper rear end allows Ford to sell theirs for less.
    I am the Stig

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    They need a Crewman rear on the wagon

    I must admit i hate wagon i don't like the feeling when in one at all it feels like your in a narrow long tunnel
    "Just a matter of time i suppose"

    "The elevator is broke, So why don't you test it out"

    "I'm not trapped in here with all of you, Your all trapped in here with me"

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    It'll be interesting to see what they do nevertheless. As i said, i doubt they'll revert to a wagon with a live axle, and with the new IRS coming online, they may have tuned it to be able to carry high loads in a particular spec.
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    Yeah true.

    But if i was GM and holden came to me with a design for a SUV. I would knock it back saying there is the S3X you can play with that save money unless it's not really going to be hot on this market then i might let them play a little extra with something like a Omega Commodore thing
    "Just a matter of time i suppose"

    "The elevator is broke, So why don't you test it out"

    "I'm not trapped in here with all of you, Your all trapped in here with me"

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    Problem with the S3X is its still not the same car as the Territory. Toyota so far have been the ONLY company with a car that follows the Territory's them, that being a car based SUV based somewhat off the Falcon. The S3X may be car based, but its not based off one particular car like the Territory and Kluger. Mitsubishi has the Endeavor in the US that i think is on the same PS41 platform as the Galant and new Magna, so that you would think could sell well here. Im surprised with all the talk that Mitsubishi need a 2nd model to survive here, theyre not adding that to the lineup, especially as they wont be making new Magna wagons anymore either.
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  7. #7
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    There still a market for them, the'yre still very popular in NZ And I see BA Wagons often.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fpv_gtho
    Problem with the S3X is its still not the same car as the Territory. Toyota so far have been the ONLY company with a car that follows the Territory's them, that being a car based SUV based somewhat off the Falcon. The S3X may be car based, but its not based off one particular car like the Territory and Kluger. Mitsubishi has the Endeavor in the US that i think is on the same PS41 platform as the Galant and new Magna, so that you would think could sell well here. Im surprised with all the talk that Mitsubishi need a 2nd model to survive here, theyre not adding that to the lineup, especially as they wont be making new Magna wagons anymore either.
    Might be a reason why holden needs to go there own way slighty with it?
    Zeta would be more then capable to build a SUV off. It would be a big bitch to Maybe this is there clay models there doing now. Making a look on the zeta getting it out and about and seeing if it's any good. Go to GM and tell them the S3X just might be a dud here so this is the best way to go for Holden.

    But knowing holden they can take a Hot dog and make a pie out of it look what they did with the Torana and SSX I'll have anything as long as it's not that bling bling caddy
    "Just a matter of time i suppose"

    "The elevator is broke, So why don't you test it out"

    "I'm not trapped in here with all of you, Your all trapped in here with me"

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    wagons are heaps commin in the 'berra with all the govt depts using them. my mate bought an ex govie magna and he reackons the back seat has never been sat on let alone utilised. whereas at my old work i know the VX wagon got a work out quite frequently with a full load. Im suprised magnas killing off their wagon. myabe this will add value to ours?
    The Datto will rage again...

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    Quote Originally Posted by SlickHolden
    Might be a reason why holden needs to go there own way slighty with it?
    Zeta would be more then capable to build a SUV off. It would be a big bitch to Maybe this is there clay models there doing now. Making a look on the zeta getting it out and about and seeing if it's any good. Go to GM and tell them the S3X just might be a dud here so this is the best way to go for Holden.

    But knowing holden they can take a Hot dog and make a pie out of it look what they did with the Torana and SSX I'll have anything as long as it's not that bling bling caddy
    You probably could build a SUV from Zeta, but Holden have said that they'll only be able to make either the wagon or SUV, not both. Probably why theyr outsourcing the S3X and debating over the wagon
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  11. #11
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    Holden done or still does cabury i think so they could lose a shit load there with no wagons.
    I think the S3X is almost on the mark just needs to be given a big going to the shape isnt to bad but it's to X5 Need to get away from that. And a zeta based SUV might go better They want it to be sporty.
    "Just a matter of time i suppose"

    "The elevator is broke, So why don't you test it out"

    "I'm not trapped in here with all of you, Your all trapped in here with me"

  12. #12
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    I think the S3X will have no problem being sporty, as long as Holden retunes the suspension. I havent seen a Cadbury wagon going around for ages actually, not since VY, only seen VX wagons.
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    They might have give them the arse

    Maybe holden is doing there little make over like they did with the Suzuki to make it the Cruse?
    "Just a matter of time i suppose"

    "The elevator is broke, So why don't you test it out"

    "I'm not trapped in here with all of you, Your all trapped in here with me"

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