1st day of 2004 WRC year begins

[henk4]

Look at soccer players, or any other sport. They are basically dead by the end of a match, but they enjoy doing that.

This you probably wrote unaware of the fact that last weekend a player of the Hungarian national team died on the field during a top division competition match in Portugal. It was broadcast live on a number of TV stations.

[Falcon500]

Well one thing i can say about australian rally is we race mildly modifed road going versions duller to whatch debteble (im not a huge rally fan myself unless its tarmac) but we havent had a fateality as far as i can reckon in 30 years and we have been rallying for nearly 50.
American football is a strange game at best tackle anything that moves.go rugby and rugby leauge!
I likd group b much like our group c touring cars but theres a time and place for everything i guess and that seems the 80s for both of them.
And restrictorswe use them in our nations cup class much like your european FIA series i dont get why they restirc cars and they also have a sucsess ballist where they add in somthing like 10% of the cars total weight if it wins a race....strange catigory at times and seems to me to hobble winners rather then praise them.
Pro drive also mange our ford v8 super car team www.fpv.com.au in case your interested
And on the first day how did the fords go? just wondering seeing marko martin do welldone somthing to rekindle my intrest in rally.

[Wouter Melissen]

Modern WRC are much faster than Group B cars as a result of a big step forward in suspension and brake technologies. Group B cars were great cars, but not as much because of the many manufacturers campaigning and not as much the the cars itself. If manufacturers like Lancia would return to rallying again, Group B might finally be left alone.

[Matra et Alpine]

Modern WRC are much faster than Group B cars as a result of a big step forward in suspension and brake technologies. Group B cars were great cars, but not as much because of the many manufacturers campaigning and not as much the the cars itself. If manufacturers like Lancia would return to rallying again, Group B might finally be left alone.

What stages do you think GrB was slower than WRC ?
In all the stages that were comparable I think the GrB average speeds are still higher.
As an example, brother's RS200 was askeed to be car 00 ( course opening car ) on an international event. he was asked to slow down as the marshals were concerned about the speeds ( car 00 isn't meant to blast through
He recorded fastest time on at least one stage and that was against WRX and EVO6s !!
Suspension and brakeing has moved forward but todays cars are a LOT heavier than the T16 and RS200 and Audi S2s. These were spaceframe chassis. Less weight meant BETTER stopping and quicker direction changes.
I've not checked for a few years but I don't think WRC has gone THAT much faster. .... must do a search later ....

[Evil Ewok]

I have found information that Renault is thinkinga bout entering back into the wrc. They have commented on this matter, but only to a certain degree. They said that they would love to get back into rally racing, and they might one day if it is possible for them to put together a car and such. They said with in the next 10 years or so, they just might do it.
Also, I agree with Alpina in where he stated that grb rally cars were faster than the newer heavier wrc cars. One reason, of course, would be the fact that they weigh more. Another would be the electronics that run the engine, drivetrain, and practically everything else in the newer cars. In the older cars it was simpler and the power most likely wouldn't lose as much lag as today, and also, the power. Example: Ford RS200 600bhp
332.4 BHP/Liter

Ford Focus WRC03 300bhp
150.7 BHP/Liter

Obviously, the older cars have more power, more horsepower per liter, and just all around superiority.

(thank you ultimatecarpage.com for these statistics )

[Matra et Alpine]

I have found information that Renault is thinkinga bout entering back into the wrc.

There had been talk in the French forums last year about Renault resurrecting the Alpine name and producing a 'replacment' for the ultimate A110 rally cars.
Wonder if it's the same rumours or if some of it is becoming fact ???
Some of the design studies were beautiful

[Evil Ewok]

I picked that small piece of information off of the wrc.com website. Probally still could find the article in the news archives. Not even a month old.

[Evil Ewok]

"When we take our rally car on competitions, officials are always pleased to see the car and greet it with comments such as "Nice to see a proper rally car Mr Whalley". Why is this? I have come to appreciate that the Integrale is the last of the real "Driver cars", we do not depend on electronics to sort out driver short comings, as do the Subaru and Mitsubishi cars with their traction control, yaw control and intelligent differentials. It is for this reason that those cars are accused of lack of soul, the driver has become a navigator. The Integrale involves the driver in the total control and continually challenges the driver to move up to a higher level of skill." I love this paragraph from John Whalley of Whalley LTD (custom makes integrales, and sells them). Also for your viewing pleasure.

[Wouter Melissen]

Example: Ford RS200 600bhp
332.4 BHP/Liter

Ford Focus WRC03 300bhp
150.7 BHP/Liter

Obviously, the older cars have more power, more horsepower per liter, and just all around superiority.

(thank you ultimatecarpage.com for these statistics )

Those figures mean jack shit. Peak horsepower says very little about an engine, especially considering the very small powerband this was available in the Group B cars. With the 300 bhp limit manufacturers have worked hard on getting a long flat powerband and incredible torque figures from these small engines. This effects the drivability of the cars immensely. Whereas the power used to come at a bang, it now comes quick but gradually. Low-end torque is what you need to get out of the corners quickly, horsepower is what you need when you want to go down Mulsanne at 400 km/h. This the main reason why the Delta S4 had both a turbocharger and a supercharger. Your comment about lag is way off as well, the new cars have 20 years extra turbo development behind them. When the Group B cars were around turbocharged racing engines were less than a decade old. A lot has been learned since then.
Furthermore the modern ultra quick gearboxes are a big step forward.

On stages with long straights the horsepower rich Group B cars might still beat the new cars but on twistier tracks the advanced 4WD systems, torqueier engines and ultra quick gearboxes will make up for the weight deficit.

[Evil Ewok]

A flat powerband isn't seriously going to matter, if you have to work up to that speed and that power on tap then it isn't really going to matter compared to when you can dial in the power when you want it, say in a grb car. Sure, braking and handling are going to matter slightly in the curves, but not so much when you can make the curve in a longer faster sprint, slide into it and keep on the throttle thru out the curve while keeping on the gas. This is the benefit of having that power whenever you want it, not having to work up to the limit. I wasn't talking about the turbo either, I was talking about the electronics.

[Matra et Alpine]

Those figures mean jack shit. Peak horsepower says very little about an engine, especially considering the very small powerband this was available in the Group B cars.

Sorry, Wouter, the AUDI engines had wide power bands.
Can't compare it with modern WRC as everyone today keeps it all secret

With the 300 bhp limit manufacturers have worked hard on getting a long flat powerband and incredible torque figures from these small engines. This effects the drivability of the cars immensely. Whereas the power used to come at a bang, it now comes quick but gradually.

The big advance has been inthe techniques to keep the turbo's spooled up. Back in GrB days the driver would swing the car sideways and keep the throttle ON to keep the Turbo spooling. Trying to get a Audi to turn was an art in timng a pendulum !!

Low-end torque is what you need to get out of the corners quickly, horsepower is what you need when you want to go down Mulsanne at 400 km/h. This the main reason why the Delta S4 had both a turbocharger and a supercharger. Your comment about lag is way off as well, the new cars have 20 years extra turbo development behind them. When the Group B cars were around turbocharged racing engines were less than a decade old. A lot has been learned since then.

The S4 was only a few HP and Nm more than the T16. The T16 was the pinnacle.
AND I'm going on figures produced by the cars before the arrival of the RS200.

Furthermore the modern ultra quick gearboxes are a big step forward.

this is a definite advantage the modern car has, but note they're going to less gears again. And most of the big guys crashed the box on the way up - and some on the way down if left foot too busy keping the pendulum going

On stages with long straights the horsepower rich Group B cars might still beat the new cars but on twistier tracks the advanced 4WD systems, torqueier engines and ultra quick gearboxes will make up for the weight deficit.

Well comparing the T16 of 1985/6 with last years 206 WRC they stack up ...
..... power torque weight
........bhp......Nm.... Kg
T16...430.....490....910
206...300.....630...1230

So nearly 50% more power , 25% less torque BUT 25% less weight.
Weight is a MAJOR factor in acceleration, braking and changing direction.

The folliwing year the engine power and torque were significantly increased with NO major increase in weight - the Audi's did a HUGE weight reduction !!

I'll ask my brother about timings of his RS200 and T16 versus modern WRCs.
I've checked Mount Stuart and Killarney, both events last year I know ran GrB cars over the same stages as WRCs. Certainly the GrB LOOKED faster at Mount Stuart.

[Matra et Alpine]

Copule of quote I dug up ....

"Henri Toivonen drove an S4 around Estoril, the Portuguese Grand Prix
circuit, so quickly that he would have qualified sixth for the 1986
Portuguese Grand Prix"

Doh................

"the Lancia Delta S4 could accelerate from 0 to 100 km/h in 2.3 seconds on a gravel road"

Also, I was pointed out to a rule I didn't know existed in WRC.
Event organisers must organise stages to have a maximu average speed of 120km/h on an event.

So if run on todays WRC events, I think a GrB would do badly as their ultimate top speed would be blocked by the stage choices.
If GrB and WRC were to run on say Kielder Forest with 30 miles of forest stage with no artificially designed stages to reduce average speeds it would be a different story, I'm sure.

[Wouter Melissen]

Matra et Alpine you bring up good points. It might have little to do with the cars itself, but I think tire technology has made big leaps forward, perhaps even more so than any other aspect of the car. But that would be eliminated if you'd pitch a Focus against a RS200 on modern tires.

[Matra et Alpine]

Matra et Alpine you bring up good points. It might have little to do with the cars itself, but I think tire technology has made big leaps forward, perhaps even more so than any other aspect of the car. But that would be eliminated if you'd pitch a Focus against a RS200 on modern tires.

The differences in servicing has made modern WRC cars run non-optimum tyres.
Back then, roadside service was OK and often tyres would be changed EVERY stage.
When we had the Escort, KLEBER tyres were THE best on forest. You could easily get 10 seconds a mile better times. But they cost $100 and lasted 20 miles 9 in 1978 !!!! )
But on balance, tyres ARE better on tarmac and mixed.

[henk4]

It appears to have gone by unnoticed, but Loeb/Citroen also won the second WRC round in snowy Sweden. If they can repeat this result in sandy Mexico, the said combination is surely heading for both world titles