1st day of 2004 WRC year begins

[Evil Ewok]

I would love to see the wrc go back to group b format. It would be alot more safer compared to then, with the technology jump in 10-15 years increasing, I wouldn't think that it would be as dangerous as it was. It's just as dangerous as it is now. Look at the wrecks that have happened in the last 2-4 years between mitsubishi, ford, and subaru. Just last season, francois duval ran his BP Ford rs off of a part cliff/hill in the middle of a curve, and the only thing that stopped him from rolling all the way down the hill were trees. 4 years ago I believe, Tommi Makinen (I can't remember where, but I think it was Monte Carlo) ran his Mitsubishi evo vi thru a stone barricade seperating himself from a fall to death basically. So many more have happened over the years im surprised that deaths havn't been more frequent than they already are. Here in america, last season, a subaru driver in the prorally died from a car crash. It is the racers choice to drive, and it should be that way. It shouldn't be entirely fia's decision. Group B (or a form of this) Should come back.

[DasModell]

i admit i don;t know much about this . but i tought that the way to make the cars have 300BHP was by using the restrictor .. why would they use restrictors if they anyway test the engine on the dyno and if they have more then 300BHP they are eliminated .. it doesn;t make sense ...
i know that restrictors effect power much more then torque for example
a Judd GV5 V10 has 600+ BHP with restrictors and +800 without but the torque difference is only 20lb-ft .. from 445 restricted to 465 unrestricted
and that's why i think peugeot tried to exploit more efficiently the torque ...


my 2 cents

[Matra et Alpine]

I would love to see the wrc go back to group b format. It would be alot more safer compared to then, with the technology jump in 10-15 years increasing,

No technology will allow a passenger to survive coming off a stage at 100mph+ into trees and thousand foot drops.
It was the UNCONTROLLABILITY of the cars in the tight tracks that invitied the danger.
Things HAVE improved, so now cars could be FASTER than GrB and that makes them MORE deangersou !

I.....So many more have happened over the years im surprised that deaths havn't been more frequent than they already are.

There are few in the top ranks, but deaths and seriosu injury is still there.
If the cars you listed were all doing 10mph faster they may NOT have survived. Where woudl the FIA put the limit ?

Here in america, last season, a subaru driver in the prorally died from a car crash. It is the racers choice to drive, and it should be that way. It shouldn't be entirely fia's decision. Group B (or a form of this) Should come back.

I was lucky to see and get hands-on GrB cars.
They brought a different skill to rallying.
Rallying is about using the car to make best time over changing roads and tracks. It doesn't need more power to do that and make it enjoyable for spectators and competitors.
I rally now in a 1972 MGB GT. It's slower than the Excort TC we ran 25 years ago but it's as much fun for all involved.
You need to look back at the GrB drivers at the end of stages. They were ALWAYS seriously stressed and sweating profusely. It took too much out of them physically. Henri Toivonen dies in a Lancia with the suspicion that he was tired from 'flu. A competitor will try to compete even when they shouldn't.

[Matra et Alpine]

i admit i don;t know much about this . but i tought that the way to make the cars have 300BHP was by using the restrictor .. why would they use restrictors if they anyway test the engine on the dyno and if they have more then 300BHP they are eliminated .. it doesn;t make sense ...
i know that restrictors effect power much more then torque for example
a Judd GV5 V10 has 600+ BHP with restrictors and +800 without but the torque difference is only 20lb-ft .. from 445 restricted to 465 unrestricted
and that's why i think peugeot tried to exploit more efficiently the torque ...


my 2 cents

What is this 'restrictor' ?
Cart has a standard pop-off valve to limit power.
WSB bikes use throttle body restrictors for each engine size.
But how could any of these work with so many car and engine makes involved.
No, They leave it to the manufacturer to 'restrict' the power to 300bhp.
Engine and boost management do the task - developed by the MANUFACTURER. They submit the engine to FIA for type approval.

And sorry you ARE right. If they are tested over 300bhp they ARE eliminated.
AND as you said, restrictors wouldn't make sense


The Judd example is mistaken because you are using the SAME engine design. Crank angles, conrod length, piston size, swept volumne compressions ratio. Yep, that probably won't affect torque much. ( But without all the details of the engine configuration it's hard to confirm )

A corrrect comparison would be to use two engines of the SAME capcity but with different piston, conrod and compression figures. THEN you would see torque differences.

Sorry to let facts confuse opinions

[Evil Ewok]

But if they want to do it and enjoy it then there is no reason to not let them? Look at soccer players, or any other sport. They are basically dead by the end of a match, but they enjoy doing that. They love to win. I just want the speed that was matched when these cars ran, and the adreniline you must feel from just watching them. Sure todays WRC is amazing in it's own right with what it is able to do, but it is no group b.

[Matra et Alpine]

But if they want to do it and enjoy it then there is no reason to not let them? Look at soccer players, or any other sport. They are basically dead by the end of a match, but they enjoy doing that. They love to win. I just want the speed that was matched when these cars ran, and the adreniline you must feel from just watching them. Sure todays WRC is amazing in it's own right with what it is able to do, but it is no group b.

Sorry to be blunt , but can you let us know your age and any experience in motorsport ?
Comparing the tiredness of a soccer player who can take a rest at any split second with a driver who if he/she isn't their sharpest going into a corner at 80mph with trees and drops to get them. There IS no point to 'rest' until the end of a stage. With the likes of Kielder where it was 30 miles of forest track then it was VERY dangerous.
If these guys get it wrong they CAN be REALLY dead, not just tired and revcovered in time for a piss-up in the pub !!!
It's as skillful, not just as fast. It's easy to confuse the two if you've not competed.

[DasModell]

with restrictors .. limits the amount of air that gets into the engine . and so the power ..
restrictors are used in sportscars .. there are some specifications of the restrictors depending on the displacement and the number of valves and all engines produce around 600 BHP ..
http://www.mulsannescorner.com/mugenv8.html
the mugen can use 2 resctrictors of 33.4 mm or 1 of 46.8 mm
and the judd
http://www.mulsannescorner.com/juddgv510.html

and i found this
http://www.fia.com/Homologations/BRIDE_GroupeA-2003.pdf
wich is a list of cars that must be fitted with restrictors in group A under the 255 article of appendix J ..and in that list you get all WRC cars
in apendix J
http://www.fia.com/regle/REG_TEC/Ann...textes/255.pdf

at the engine(5.1.8.3) it says that all supercharged cars must be fited with a restrictor fixed to the compressor housing (and it gives more details)

[Evil Ewok]

For starters, I was not comparing them entirely, just the fact that each of them love to do what they do. I was never trying to compare the physical and mental harshness for either side. It was just an example and a statement that in my personal opinion we should let the drivers decide if they would want a section of rallying to have group b potential. Sure it was hard an dangerous, but that is no reason to not let them race that way if they were to agree and want to do it. Sure im young (16, 17 this year) and my motorsport is slightly young in the view of experience, but with intellect i'm pretty smart, and this is my opinion. I would love to be able to experience group b, and the sense of speed that was felt before my generation.

[Matra et Alpine]

For starters, I was not comparing them entirely, just the fact that each of them love to do what they do. I was never trying to compare the physical and mental harshness for either side. It was just an example and a statement that in my personal opinion we should let the drivers decide if they would want a section of rallying to have group b potential. Sure it was hard an dangerous, but that is no reason to not let them race that way if they were to agree and want to do it. Sure im young (16, 17 this year) and my motorsport is slightly young in the view of experience, but with intellect i'm pretty smart, and this is my opinion. I would love to be able to experience group b, and the sense of speed that was felt before my generation.

A better analogy.
Should you play American Football without helmets ?
It would let you get the sense of speed and power felt before your generation. Does that help comprehend my view ??

The drivers were pleased to see Group B go.
Yep, they'll reminisce now about what once was.
But on the day they knew they were taking too many risks.

You're right to wish to see GrB cars again, don't know about the US but over here we get 'events' where GrB cars will be driven hard - not 100% tho'. Mount Stuart classic last year had Audi, Renault, Nissan and Ford GrB cars There are excellent DVDs you can watch and experience insude.

Try to get a shot in a current WRC car and you'll be surprised at the speed and agility. Local rallies and car clubs may have a driver looking for a navigator. The best way to experience rallies is to compete. Navigating is a cheap and easy (!) start. Subaru and EVOs are not far of the pace of their WRX cousins.

[Evil Ewok]

What about Rugby? lol

[DasModell]

Group B is dead .. asa is ground effects in f1 it is too dangerous ..
BTW . i would like WRC to be once again RWD with high revving engines

[Evil Ewok]

I would love to see more manufacturers get into the mix. Maybe a german company such as VW, or maybe an itallian company. Japanese manufacturers are dominating this. But the diversity in companies would bring the sport together as a whole across the world, because there would be a manufacturer for everybody.

[Matra et Alpine]

with restrictors .. limits the amount of air that gets into the engine . and so the power ..
restrictors are used in sportscars .. there are some specifications of the restrictors depending on the displacement and the number of valves and all engines produce around 600 BHP ..
http://www.mulsannescorner.com/mugenv8.html
the mugen can use 2 resctrictors of 33.4 mm or 1 of 46.8 mm
and the judd
http://www.mulsannescorner.com/juddgv510.html

and i found this
http://www.fia.com/Homologations/BRIDE_GroupeA-2003.pdf
wich is a list of cars that must be fitted with restrictors in group A under the 255 article of appendix J ..and in that list you get all WRC cars
in apendix J
http://www.fia.com/regle/REG_TEC/Ann...textes/255.pdf

at the engine(5.1.8.3) it says that all supercharged cars must be fited with a restrictor fixed to the compressor housing (and it gives more details)

Thank you, DasModell, at least you've researched to support your comments.

I was trying to distinguish between a 'standard restrictor' as used in CART and the WRC controls.
The restricor sizes listed are determined by tesing the 'teyp approval' engine which has been designed with a restrictor in place within the range specified in the rules. If that meets the 300bhp figure then THAT restrictor size is added to the requirments.

The restrictor is NOT fitted by FIA in the way CART is.
The engine builder must manufacture the engine with the correct restricion to limit the engine to 300bhp.
If they don't then they will lose points.

Sorry I wasn't clearer earlier in the CART restrictor use.
It is different to the way WRC works.
If a manufacturer comes up with a new car/engine then they go through type approval and homologation which checks the POWER output and then documents the intake size via the restrictor.

To return to the point, if they chose to restrict torque they will have to work with the manufacturers and come up with a scheme that limits the torque in an engine - it could be reduction in piston size, or swept volume. Or maybe part of engine management ( I doubt the latter after the F1 debacels )

[Matra et Alpine]

What about Rugby? lol

Not the same, you only tackle the person WITH the ball, so you know where a hit is coming from and who is the intended victim
Even so, there have been significant rule changes to avoid the worst of the dangerous situations as a ruck or maul breaks down.

[Matra et Alpine]

I would love to see more manufacturers get into the mix. Maybe a german company such as VW, or maybe an itallian company. Japanese manufacturers are dominating this. But the diversity in companies would bring the sport together as a whole across the world, because there would be a manufacturer for everybody.

WRC is an expensive undertaking and a long way from the showroom.
You find all the manufacturers present in Group A.
SKODA carries the VW-group WRC hopes. They have a long and well-respected heritage in world rallying.

Ford WRC is developed and run by M-Sport in the Lake District, England
Subaru WRC is developed and run by Pro-Drive near Oxford, England.
Mitsubishi WRC is developed and run by RALLIART - Oxford, England.
Skoda is Czech, Peugeot and Citroen are French developed.