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Thread: Pebble Beach Fake Wins?

  1. #16
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    San Francisco, California
    While there may be some confusion over naming specifics (and it wouldn't be the first time, see John Motzart's win with his Voisin in 2002 that led to speculation of incorrect model designation), the cars are original, Pebble Beach wouldn't INVITE the car to be there if it wasn't, let alone judge it and let it win. If you have ever witnessed a Pebble Beach judging, it is something to behold. We're talking about guys who nitpick on the tpye of HEADLIGHTS the car has, let alone whether it is a real car.
    106 mph in second, 130 mph in top. 1932 Duesenberg SJ

  2. #17
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Just to add to what Duesy is saying, most of the experts in the Classic Era world are at Pebble Beach doing the judging. The heads of the Classic Car Car Club of America and other groups like that are all involved.

    As I mentioned in a previous post, Lorin Tryon snapped the Pebble Beach show into shape and brought the reputation of the show up to become the most respected show in this kind in the world. Lorin has passed on, but many of the people who worked with him are still there keeping the high standards. Odds are against this Delage being a fake or a normal Delage made into something exceptional.

  3. #18
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Here is a response I got from Jon Lee who is senior member of the Classic Car Club of America and a judge at Pebble Beach.

    Every year that I have judged at Pebble Beach there has been some story about the Best of Show Car being a fake. I think by now it would be slightly disappointing if no one did call the B.o.S. a phoney car.
    In my opinion, Glenn Mounger and Jules Heumann have don an excellent job upholding the standards set by Lorin Tryon.
    The best authority I know on Delage is Richard Adatto in Washington state. His recently published book, "Delage Styling and Design", illustrates Sam Mann's Delage and gives a brief account of its history.
    I also know Sam Mann a bit. I have never known him to misrepresent any car he has. In fact, I have known him to downplay the importance of many that he owns. His restorations are impeccable and I believe his research to be torough. I'm sure that Richard Adatto figured in the research on this car and that information was passed onto the Pebble Beach organizers.
    It always amazes me the sheer volume of documentation that most exhibitors bring with them to Pebble Beach.
    When someone complains about such-and-such a car being a fake (and it does come to us at the Classification Committee more often than I'd like), my first response is to ask for supporting documentation. I have yet to have any of the protagonists ever follow up. Consequently, if someone complains about any car, it is up to them to produce some information; after all, the owner already has a pile of documentation supporting his car.
    I am all for questioning things and I think in this case the answer is the Pebble Beach 2005 winning Delage is legit.

  4. #19
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Rozenburg, Holland
    as can be derived from this answer, also the protagonist Metalguy has further abstained from bringing forward any evidence of his claim.
    "I find the whole business of religion profoundly interesting, but it does mystify me that otherwise intelligent people take it seriously." Douglas Adams

  5. #20
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Central Ohio
    Duesey - the Voisin that won BOS in 2002 is not a John Mozart car. It is part of the same collection that took BOS this year with the Delage.

    Metalguy - the Delage that won at PB this year is far from a fake and your assertion to the contrary is comical at best.

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