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Thread: Pebble Beach Fake Wins?

  1. #1
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    Pebble Beach Fake ?

    Looking at the winner of Pebble Beach,the Delage Coupe, and having studied these Delages for 30 years I have never heard of this car existing. The chassis number does not exist in the published Delage books. I understand that Pourtout build 1 Delage D8120 (one does exist). Although entered and touted as an ''S'' chassis, it is not - unlike the special ''alloy'' features of the ''S''. There was one real S on the green at Pebble - big differance. Further the chassis is a standard diminsion one, unlike an 'S'. Is it a real car? Let's see what the Brits publish.
    Last edited by Metalguy; 08-26-2005 at 07:45 AM.

  2. #2
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    happens all the time.
    There are LOTS more A110 GrpIVs in the world than were produced from the factory

    BUT do you know if the judges actually investigated the provenance ?
    "A woman without curves is like a road without bends, you might get to your destination quicker but the ride is boring as hell'

  3. #3
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    Interesting comment, I hope you are absolutely sure about what you are saying, and that you also dare to step out of your anonimity. This is an American concours and even the slightest hint of fraud from your side is likely to be responded with a law case.
    "I find the whole business of religion profoundly interesting, but it does mystify me that otherwise intelligent people take it seriously." Douglas Adams

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    [Lazy]Any pictures of the car in question?[/Lazy]
    http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31695
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    If you should see a man walking down a crowded street talking aloud to himself, don't run in the opposite direction, but run towards him, because he's a poet. You have nothing to fear from the poet - but the truth.

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  6. #6
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    Interesting. Very interesting. I want to see how this evolves... Have you informed "anyone" about this?
    http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31695
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  7. #7
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    erm, MetalGuy, you had better be providing PROOF that you're claims made on the UCP page are valid !!!

    I'd recommend they be removed from there until validated.

    For someone who is so positive, can you confirm what investigation in the provenance was undertaken ?
    "A woman without curves is like a road without bends, you might get to your destination quicker but the ride is boring as hell'

  8. #8
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    Pebble Beach became a top rated show because they had tightened their standards over twenty years ago. This means they created a review process that weeds out the fakes. I think this is one of the reasons that dramatic round doors Rolls Royce did win any class awards. Some question the past of that car. Under Lorin Tryon's leadership I cannot imagine any fakes won class or overall awards. I wokred with Lorin Tyron and knew many people in the collector world who had high respect for Lorin. He was a world leader in Classic Era cars. Lorin may have passed on, but the system and standards he put into place continue.

    It can be hard to prove some cars history. There are far more Bugatti Type 35b cars in the world then were ever made. Some dealers will claim a car was made a historic coachbuilder when it was made by a modern chop shop. The owner of the Delage is a multiple winner at Pebble Beach and has been entering cars there for over twenty years. If there had been any question of the history of the winning Delage, it would have never won.

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    does anybody have the same book , or the list of the chassis numbers.it's quite surprising for a coucours d'élégance of this reputation .
    there're a lot of problems actually too with copies of Sprint Zagatos 1300 and Ferraris , 'cause Italians did lots of wrong chassis
    Last edited by forza_autodelta; 08-26-2005 at 09:27 AM.

  10. #10
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    I will do some checking around. I know people in the Classic Car world that may have information on what kind of documentation this Delage has. As someone who is trying to document every car from a niche builder, I know how the numbers and records can be a mess and how some information may not get published. This author may have not have had all the records when the book was published. We cannot jump to conclusions.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metalguy
    Looking at the winner of Pebble Beach,the Delage Coupe, and having studied these Delages for 30 years I have never heard of this car existing. The chassis number does not exist in the published Delage books. I understand that Pourtout build 1 Delage D8120 (one does exist). Although entered and touted as an ''S'' chassis, it is not - unlike the special ''alloy'' features of the ''S''. There was one real S on the green at Pebble - big differance. Further the chassis is a standard diminsion one, unlike an 'S'. Is it a real car? Let's see what the Brits publish.
    If you want to add or change anything to your remarks can you please post a new post instead of editing the original post almost 12 hours and many responses later? This is a very serious and delicate matter, but I found it interesting enough to let you defend and explain yourself some more, but if you continue to change your story like this I'm forced to delete the thread.

    On the subject at hand, the owner had a file on him with pictures of the car in the 1940s/50s when it had slightly modified windows. Sadly, I have not seen that personally. Like was said before, I find it highly doubtful that the organizers would have allowed it in if there was any doubt about it. Think about it, it is in their best interest to allow only cars with impeccable histories on the field. There are plenty of eager owners waiting to get theirs on. This was the fourth time the owner scored a best of show, so he's clearly an enthusiast and someone who would set up this elaborate scheme to win at Pebble.
    If you should see a man walking down a crowded street talking aloud to himself, don't run in the opposite direction, but run towards him, because he's a poet. You have nothing to fear from the poet - but the truth.

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  12. #12
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    man, if what metalguy says turns out to be true, this would certainly shit up the whole car show world...but I sincerely hope that his claims are legit and well founded, not just some made up BS
    "We first fought the heathens in the name of religion, then Communism, and now in the name of drugs and terrorism. Our excuses for global domination always change." - Serj Tanikan

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  13. #13
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    hey , you're back , cool, Metalguy won't post more it's a pity

  14. #14
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    Real Car, bank on it.

    Some facts on the Delage that won Pebble. The club register in the UK has records on this car, and actually selected it while serving as was one of the Judges at the show. After viewing the photos, it doesnt look like an ''S'', but the ''S'' thing is always thrown around often to add clout to ''Normal'' chassis - Kinda like inches to angry inch. Pourtout built simple coachworks, this must be one of the cleanest. There are photos Pre-1950's existing, I think even in the 1940's. I have them - they are real. The 1940's Delage Pourtout has a different bonnet shape , wipers in different location, and a different grill and looks different than the current fair, but this car did exist and is known and that is enough. The owner is crazy for these cars, I know him and although his other 3 wins are known to have styling modifcations not ''cricket'', if he owes the cars he can do what the hell he wants - right? I like this car, Pourtout did some great stuff with the little Peugots with the same simplicity. Hats off to any guy who can take down Ralphy Baby and the entire classic car mafia with such a ''simple voiture extraordinaire''.

  15. #15
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    There was also a George Irat with a Pourtout body on the Concours, probably very few people will have noticed it
    "I find the whole business of religion profoundly interesting, but it does mystify me that otherwise intelligent people take it seriously." Douglas Adams

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