05' BMW M3 vs. 05' Chevrolet Corvette

[IWantAnAudiRS6]

The C6 and M3 get pretty even gas mileage. However, I do find it hard to believe that a 7 liter V8 pumps about the same as a 3.2 6-er.

Especially when you compare the technology- infinitely variable valve timing for maximum efficiency in the M3, and a 2-valves-per-cylinder powerhouse.

Plus, I like the street-sleeper nature of the M3 (OK, OK, I know the alloys are bling but it's more reserved looking than the C6 ) and it would be fun to edge up quietly beside people and 0wn teh cr4p out of them

The M3 appeals more for the awesome quality, amazing dynamics, and the fact it's pretty practical- a C6 is useless for when I need to get to my next rock show with a few guitars and an amp slung in the back

[Vic Vega]

Dude, you were saying that 'Vette pulles better than MC12 out of corners, and that it's more torquey solution, and that is ridiculous. You can clearly see how good MC12 is out of corners. Not only that it's more powerful, has more torque and good torque curve, but it also uses traction control.

NO I didn't.

Couple steps back...

I said it DOES have handling issues which limit it's performance.
Those are easily visible facts and have been cited byt team drivers !

I said other cars handle better and if you watch a race you can clearly see how much other cars catch the 'vette in the twisties.

I cited the personal experience of watching them go through the chican and esses at Le Mans for 3 hourts straight

I would like to see those qoutes.
Jan Magnussen @ LeMans (2005.): “Last year we considered the 24 hours a sprint race if we could avoid the curbs, this year we don't have to worry about them”

erm that woudl be liek me saying I won all the races by UCP members at British tracks.

Oh dear...

1999. dont know the imsa/alms history web doesnt' go back that far - http://www.americanlemans.com/archives/archives.asp
2000. Chrysler, Porsche, Chevrolet, Saleen. Well beaten by Chrysler and Porsche.
2001. Not bad. Chevrolet, Dodge and Chrysler - why only Ferrari for 2 races ??
2002 a good season. But again only Saleen, Corvette, Dodge and Ferrari !!
2003 only beat Ferrari by 1 point. The list of Ferrari wins for that year looks as good as the Corvettes !
2004 was a good season. I dont' know the reg changes, so can't say if it represented the 'vette and the competition ?? How did changes of GTS->GT1 affect that season ?
In 2005 the GT1 competition was only Saleen, Corvette, Dodge and Aston. Not exactly the worlds pinnacle of all competition sportscar manufacturers see 2002

What's up with sarcastic fire? Completely unnecessary.
Of course it was well beaten by Viper. Viper was at it's best those days...
OMG, Saleen, Viper, 550's and new DBR9 aren't worthy opponents?!? Are we from the same planet?
In ALMS, season 2005. there's also MC12, you know? MC12 also isn't worthy opponent? And in GT1 class at ALMS so far the winner was...

So, far from the list of continued success suggested by listing the finishing positions for races throught the seasons you age, the above shows there were some ups and downs. The one BIG thing I take from that is they SHOUDL own that series as they and Saleen are the only two who seem to do more than come in for a year or two and then bug out.

Of couse there are ups and downs, could you point one team that doesn't have them?

Were the jsut 'unlucky' in those seasons and on those tracks they didn't do so well in ? Clearly not It's about the ups and downs of competition and recognising the limitations as well as praising the positives. Just as nobodywoudl try to defend a Lotus on an oval - well you MIGHT find some deranged fanbosy willing to believe it - it amazes me how some will defend the limitations rather than recognise the, Corvette clearly have and are respondig to the problems in handlign withing the confines of the layout by upping the torque and power so that they can try to gain on the straight what they lose on the corners !!

Upping torque and power Yeah, that's why they have satisfied themselves with ~600 BHP, and ~700 Nm torque, while the others have pretty higher figures.

fyi ... The FIA GT tables are at http://www.fiagt.com/pointssummary.p...=manuf&event=7
Maserati 170 points
Ferrari 81
Corvette 34

Oh my, oh dear...
There are 4 MC12's in the field, and 4 Ferrari's, need I say more?

Both cars are false competition next year.

And real power for the next year is... I'm dying to find out.

At Le Mans, neither team pushed their cars as fast as they could go to avoid the suggested penalties for next season if they exceeded certain lap times.
This in the end meant the DBR9s coudlnt' race to 'win' Le Mans after their incidents which was pissing off everyone there !!
It also clearly meant that we never knew how fast the 'vettes could really go which is a shame also

I know, and yes, that is shame.

[Matra et Alpine]

Dude, you were saying that 'Vette pulles better than MC12 out of corners, and that it's more torquey solution, and that is ridiculous. You can clearly see how good MC12 is out of corners. Not only that it's more powerful, has more torque and good torque curve, but it also uses traction control.

WHAT races have you been watching ?
The 'vette pulls a couple of yards on the EXIT of every corner and loses 5 yards IN the corner.
What you are seeing is hte MC12 better IN the corners. Watch replays and see how if they are nose to tail going IN to a corner then by the end of the straight the 'vette is further ahead. THAT is better application of torque.

Couple steps back...
I would like to see those qoutes.
Jan Magnussen @ LeMans (2005.): “Last year we considered the 24 hours a sprint race if we could avoid the curbs, this year we don't have to worry about them”

They never went NEAR a kerb once I suspect he didnt'; have to worry as the lower drag gave them the higher speeds to win with.
Please refer to my comments about the chicane and esses. First hand evaluation of the times and speeds of cars through it for a 3 hour period
But as I'd said, I wasn't sure where I'd read some of the informatino and quote and likesly it was the Frenchn dailyes. But I'm still tryign to remember !!!
[quote]Oh dear...

What's up with sarcastic fire? Completely unnecessary.
Of course it was well beaten by Viper. Viper was at it's best those days...
OMG, Saleen, Viper, 550's and new DBR9 aren't worthy opponents?!? Are we from the same planet?
[quote]
Because you are only tryign to defend you're not openign your eyes to the informatino provided.
IF there are 3 other teams then by the law of averages for 'problems' you've already got a 1 in 4 chance of winning !!!!
There isnt'a great depth of teams. No Bentley, Jaguar, BMW, McLaren, TVR, do I really need to list all the contenders that don't race ALMS ????
THAT was the point about competition.
In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king

In ALMS, season 2005. there's also MC12, you know? MC12 also isn't worthy opponent? And in GT1 class at ALMS so far the winner was...

We'd covered that.
I was only pointing out that your list was obviously going to make the 'vette look good as it only told you the 'vette results. The tables summariesd were much more realistic and hence showed the ups and downs. Your post of the 'vette announcement only todl the one side of the story. Best for both to be explored in making conclusison isn't it ?

Of couse there are ups and downs, could you point one team that doesn't have them?

I wasn't the one that ONLY posted COrvette reults as some form of deomnstratino of the success of the Corvette. IF you ignore the downs then all teams look good

Upping torque and power Yeah, that's why they have satisfied themselves with ~600 BHP, and ~700 Nm torque, while the others have pretty higher figures.

The new car is coming with more power and the vette low end torque is pretty much the best. Hence why it picks up out of corners better.

Oh my, oh dear...
There are 4 MC12's in the field, and 4 Ferrari's, need I say more?

At least you DO recognise the points made in my comments on the seasons then ?
The results reflect the competition and hence why in FIA GT the 'vette isn't so succesful this year. We've both already agreed thath the MC12 is a 'manufcatured' winner

And real power for the next year is... I'm dying to find out.

I know, and yes, that is shame.

IF either Chev or Aston do significant upgrades they might find the decisinos to not penalise based on Le Mans performance goes out the window. It woudl have been better to have let them race at the real Le Mans, but sponsors and TV has too much power

[Vic Vega]

WHAT races have you been watching ?
The 'vette pulls a couple of yards on the EXIT of every corner and loses 5 yards IN the corner.
What you are seeing is hte MC12 better IN the corners. Watch replays and see how if they are nose to tail going IN to a corner then by the end of the straight the 'vette is further ahead. THAT is better application of torque.

You wouldn't believe, FIA GT races.
NO. That is what is normal when racing. Of course it looses 5 yards IN, and gains 5 yards on the exit, you, know, that is normal racing. Why it gains 5 yards on EXIT, simply, it reaches apex before the car behind him, and applies throttle sooner, very simple.
You could see on few situations where MC12 and Vette were levelled out of corner, that MC12 always pulled away.
Vette has 671 Nm @ 5200 RPM (600 BHP @ 6400 RPM), also Vette has 1139 kg;
MC12 has 750+ Nm at ~6000 RPM (~680 BHP @ ~8000+ RPM) (for MC12 rumored 'cause there are no official data yet )
MC12's engine revs much higher than C5-R's engine, so max torque at 6000 isn't shortcoming at all.
Also, once again, TORUIEST of them all is Saleen, 785 Nm @ 4200 RPM (not sure if it's @ 4200 or 4600, still it's pretty impressive)

And, could you please decide either C5-R "it's grunt out of the corners" (I hope you don't have memory of a goldfish), or it pulls better than anyone else out of corners.

They never went NEAR a kerb once I suspect he didnt'; have to worry as the lower drag gave them the higher speeds to win with.
Please refer to my comments about the chicane and esses. First hand evaluation of the times and speeds of cars through it for a 3 hour period
But as I'd said, I wasn't sure where I'd read some of the informatino and quote and likesly it was the Frenchn dailyes. But I'm still tryign to remember !!!

Yes! The only man watched Le Mans (2005.) is..., is...., yeah you know.
Think harder, and don't worry, I'm patient.

Because you are only tryign to defend you're not openign your eyes to the informatino provided.
IF there are 3 other teams then by the law of averages for 'problems' you've already got a 1 in 4 chance of winning !!!!
There isnt'a great depth of teams. No Bentley, Jaguar, BMW, McLaren, TVR, do I really need to list all the contenders that don't race ALMS ????
THAT was the point about competition.
In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king

We'd covered that.
I was only pointing out that your list was obviously going to make the 'vette look good as it only told you the 'vette results. The tables summariesd were much more realistic and hence showed the ups and downs. Your post of the 'vette announcement only todl the one side of the story. Best for both to be explored in making conclusison isn't it ?

I wasn't the one that ONLY posted COrvette reults as some form of deomnstratino of the success of the Corvette. IF you ignore the downs then all teams look good

Oh God, what an opservation, brilliant, BRILLIANT I say!
Yeah, I tried to decieve everyone by showing results from races that Corvette ATTENDED.
Although I really don't know why I showed those poor results from 1999., and not so good results from 2000.
My masterplan had a flaw, and I didn't see it, must have something to do with one eyed man.
The only reason why I didn't put link from ALMS archives, is because some seasons are in freakin .pdf, and there's no season 2004

And MC12 really has proven itself in ALMS this season, against C6-R.

Bentley? Which bently? 4-door saloon?
Jaguar? They're racing program is so incompetent, it can't be described in words...
BMW? Which one? And please don't say M3, 'cause even BMW was aware of that...
McLaren who? Even with old FIA GT specs (1997.), it would've been beaten easilly by GTS cars, and if they rebulid it to comply with GTS specs, I would've been even wors then
TVR? Are you trying to make me laugh?
None of these manufacturers had car for GTS class, nor could build one based on some road model, EXCEPT McLaren F1, although F1 Longtail proved itself in JGTC, where it was crushed by the opponents, always at the back of the GT500 field...

The new car is coming with more power and the vette low end torque is pretty much the best. Hence why it picks up out of corners better.

Which new car? GLPK C5-R? Figures are above. And NO, they do not have the best torque curve, nor it has most torque at low RPM's.

At least you DO recognise the points made in my comments on the seasons then ?
The results reflect the competition and hence why in FIA GT the 'vette isn't so succesful this year.
We've both already agreed thath the MC12 is a 'manufcatured' winner

Oh dear...
What is there to deny?
Maserati has 4 cars in the field and 170 points
Ferrari has 4 cars in the field and 81
Corvette is one and 34 (26) points.
The fact that some (not only MC12) are privileged, and that some can even buy of win instead of point penalty...
Although I hate that saying in motorsport "They don't have luck", GLPK cleary could use some

IF either Chev or Aston do significant upgrades they might find the decisinos to not penalise based on Le Mans performance goes out the window. It woudl have been better to have let them race at the real Le Mans, but sponsors and TV has too much power

You still haven't answered who'll be the power to reckon with next season...

[kennyknoxville]

c6...

[Matra et Alpine]

sorry Vic, I missed this - a consequence of UCP's stupid resetting of 'read messages' at midday
I'll touch on the comon ground, confusion and views ....

You wouldn't believe, FIA GT races.
NO. That is what is normal when racing. Of course it looses 5 yards IN, and gains 5 yards on the exit, you, know, that is normal racing. Why it gains 5 yards on EXIT, simply, it reaches apex before the car behind him, and applies throttle sooner, very simple.

erm that's as you cite so obvious I'd expected it NOT to be taken as the meaning.
What i was describing is that the 'vette is clrealy SLOWER through the corners but pulls OUT of the corners faster than the MC12.
IF you'd been weatchign the FIA GT races then that is cleraly the evidence presented in the races
BTW the losint time INTO is brakign adn I've no evidence that the Vette is lackign there. It's the IN I mentioned.
Doe sit make sense now ?

You could see on few situations where MC12 and Vette were levelled out of corner, that MC12 always pulled away.

Not wanting to get too picky but that's not how I observed it.
The MC12 was 'level' coming OUT of corneres because it woudl catch up to the vette's and be unable to pass IN the corner.
That's nromal racing.
COMPARE it with when the MC12 were ahead and the gap created THROUGH the corner and espsecially easily identified in sequences where the momentum gives it the BIG advantage of through corner speeds to overcome the benefit the vetts' aplication of torque carries once it is in a position to apply it effectively.

MC12's engine revs much higher than C5-R's engine, so max torque at 6000 isn't shortcoming at all.
Also, once again, TORUIEST of them all is Saleen, 785 Nm @ 4200 RPM (not sure if it's @ 4200 or 4600, still it's pretty impressive)

no disagreement BUT taking a single torque number isn't relevant to racing.
The 'vette is clearly pulling from lower revs and is able to apply that lower down torque where the MC12 is using it's revs to maintain a higher through corner speed. SO the MC12 is looking for gear changes whilst the 'vette isn't.
The Saleen is the evidenc supporting theis point about racing. It on paper shoudl beat everyoen but doesn't because it has 'over-powered' the chassis and is in the position of not always being able to USE the power because of the handling. The extreme for this is my local track where the Saleens struggle and are swamped on the twisties ( but overhaul on the uphill from the hairpin )

And, could you please decide either C5-R "it's grunt out of the corners" (I hope you don't have memory of a goldfish), or it pulls better than anyone else out of corners.

ROFLMAO.
Sorry, "sperated by our common language" !!!
'grunt out of corners' is British for pulling better out of corners.
Cars HAVE 'grunt' - lots of low down power.
I've never heard fo 'grunt' being a bad thing, but that's the downside of a common language, differenet societies !!!
So I think you've got compeltely the wrong end of my explanations if you've thought I was saying 'grunt' was bad and can see the confusion in this post.

Yes! The only man watched Le Mans (2005.) is..., is...., yeah you know.
Think harder, and don't worry, I'm patient.

Well I've not seen any OTHER input of direct comparison.
Sorry you seem to have a 'chip' that I was there - tough !!!!!
Best I can suggest is to get a vid of the races and take each clip of a corner sequence and watch them back to back. THAT is what is seldom done in TV coverage but is the reason I prefer goign to live races. You get better insight into the car differences than you can by watching the same car go round most of a lap
BUT I'm confused as to whether you have seen the sequence and concur or dont' agree or haven't seen the sequence at all.
You have seen obershleben tho IIRC and it was plain there in the TV coverage the point I was providing.

Oh God, what an opservation, brilliant, BRILLIANT I say!
Yeah, I tried to decieve everyone by showing results from races that Corvette ATTENDED.
Although I really don't know why I showed those poor results from 1999., and not so good results from 2000.
My masterplan had a flaw, and I didn't see it, must have something to do with one eyed man.
The only reason why I didn't put link from ALMS archives, is because some seasons are in freakin .pdf, and there's no season 2004

Chill the POINT I was makign was that you ONLY POSTED Corvette results.
Why you did is irrelevant, but it doesnt' provide the whole picture and there WAS an IMPLICATION in the information - no real surprise as provided by Corvette Racing

And MC12 really has proven itself in ALMS this season, against C6-R.

Can be many reasons for this but it is normal for a race team to concentrate on one formula for it's opening season. FIA GT is clearly getting their focus.
Just as the Vette and the Viper were raced in the US before coming to Le Mans.
It's why privateers seldom buy into a car until a season or two has passed and the teething is over

Bentley? Which bently? 4-door saloon?
Jaguar? They're racing program is so incompetent, it can't be described in words...
BMW? Which one? And please don't say M3, 'cause even BMW was aware of that...
McLaren who? Even with old FIA GT specs (1997.), it would've been beaten easilly by GTS cars, and if they rebulid it to comply with GTS specs, I would've been even wors then
TVR? Are you trying to make me laugh?

Trying to as it's valid because these are all teams who ARE successful elsewhere and aren't in ALMS.
But as you're comment about Jaguar shows, these WERE in US GT racing and once were winning cars. Without teams like that - as now - then the competition is lower. More competitive makes in a series makes winning points much harder. Less makes it easier. That was what all I was pointing out. Look at F1 when there are only 3 cars 'capable of winning' - it lessons Ferraris record IMHO than there efforts in the 70s say.

None of these manufacturers had car for GTS class, nor could build one based on some road model, EXCEPT McLaren F1, although F1 Longtail proved itself in JGTC, where it was crushed by the opponents, always at the back of the GT500 field...

Valid point - but which 'vette are we talking about as there is little in the Le Mans vettes to do with the real car according to the guys in the paddock
And as you say none had GTS so makes GTS 'easier' for those in it , no ?
Calling on JGTC is a little bit rich with their rules being soooo open for mods and extreme cars. You need a JGTC spec car to race effectively there, not jsut a different setup on a GT
There is only one Corvette entered against a large variation of cars, I dont think it's earned a poitn yet - I'm confused by this coming in as it's a diffrent kind of car and the corvette's do badly. So the Mac ( old OLD car ) doesn't do that well either - no great surprise !! )
What am I missing about that comment ? : confused :

Which new car? GLPK C5-R? Figures are above. And NO, they do not have the best torque curve, nor it has most torque at low RPM's.

Next seasons 'vette.
How are you comparing the curve ?
Using a +-10% then the vette had better torque lower down.
Interesting though, do you have a source for the current race spec torque bands as I dont have for the MC12 for sure and the 'vette info I saw was for the Le Mans car, which may vary.

Oh dear...
What is there to deny?
Maserati has 4 cars in the field and 170 points
Ferrari has 4 cars in the field and 81
Corvette is one and 34 (26) points.

Still not sure if the point about the earlier seasons when the Corvette was running a higher percentage of the field was understood then.
I was just stating facts and agree with what you are saying.
With more competitiors on an equal footing it's harder to win.
To win lots of races in a WIDE field of entrants indicates a better car.
See F1 and Ferrari the last few seasons

The fact that some (not only MC12) are privileged, and that some can even buy of win instead of point penalty...
Although I hate that saying in motorsport "They don't have luck", GLPK cleary could use some

We agree on the MC12, a dirty back door trick.
Whether the reduced wing is 'enough' is possibly true as it's not running away with it at all times. I dont like "controleld" levellign of cars after the fact and the reduced wing on the MC12 whilst reducing it's handling capability dramatically and making it 'closer' for the competition, it's 'false'. Who says the wing shouldn't be even smaller - or larger !!

You still haven't answered who'll be the power to reckon with next season...

Because I'm not sure and I'm not driven by 'fanboy-faith'.
In ALMS it is going to depend on how much the jury-rigging at Le Mans affects the on-track performance in the races.
How serious any team is and how much funding they get, especially if gas prices stay high some board of directors may decide that next year may NOT be a good time to be trying to sell big powerful gaz-guzzling sportscars
IF we assume that each team were holding back as much as the other then the Aston is going to be a major contender and potentially a winner. See comment above though, Ford may decide not to invest as much
Corvette are in a stronger position as they have direct factory support on their local turf and the 'vette IS the flagship American product.
It WILL be interesting for sure IF the investment continues from all teams.

[2ndclasscitizen]

I'd go the C6, i just like it better, and a lot of 3-series drivers are pretentious knobs