Zonda F vs CGT vs Enzo vs CCR

[PerfAdv]

Henry Ford didn't sit there and say: "Herr Benz has been building cars years longer than me, so I won't bother because I don't have lineage!"

When Ferdinand Porsche started out he built an upturned bathtub with a VW Beetle engine in it. No "heritage" there.

Point taken. Same way when the Japanese started contending in the luxury segment,
People would say, “it’s just a Toyota”. Being accepted as an equal amongst competitors is no easy feat. I guess I’m showing my bias.

When you build a car you are assembling a number of components, some are very generic; such as screws, bolts and washers, others are specifically designed for the car; such as body panels, interior trim.

Does it matter who actually builds & assembles the components, so long as the end result is a good car?

This is a question of degree. Using common fasteners and common crankshafts are very different. In Grand Prix racing only top engine manufacturers are competitive. Ford engined cars also run but I don’t think the lack luster performance is because they are getting generic parts from a different source, it’s the basic design and manufacture of their engines that’s lacking. Toyota in just three years has become competitive. Toyota also dedicated $180 million towards engine development alone.

Back to the McLaren F1. I am not calling it a fraud. Companies that have been around just naturally garner more respect from me. If McLaren continues to build marvelous cars in the future then they will definitely command respect from an even wider enthusiast base.

["Clevor" Angel]

Does it matter who actually builds & assembles the components, so long as the end result is a good car?

Well, apparently having the engine from an SUV that is produced by the same company as the "heart" of your supercar is better than a purpose built one from some else.

Saleen and Shelby don't build their own engines, and the one out of the ME412 is from AMG, so again, they are "kit cars" apparently.

As are all Aston Martins, Rolls Royces and Bentleys, beccause other companies make their engines as well.

I agree with the first question completely.

Saleen makes their own engine, as far as I know, Ford doesn't make a 7 litre all aluminium engine, no Saleen doesn't "make" it as far as casting and such, but they design and engineer it in house. Shelby builds and has always built their own engines and bodies and suspension all the way back to the FIA 289 cobras and the GT40's, and yes, they designed their own aluminium 427 block recently, and they build the engines to customer specifications, in house. The Ford GT does not have an SUV motor nor is it derived from such. It is a newer rendition of the Cobra R motor and has better flowing heads and has the Ford Lightning Truck short block and its all cast in aluminium and its re-cast to accept the specific transaxle in the Ford GT. I forgot about the ME412, your right.

Just out of curiosity who does build the Rolls Royce and Bentley motors? Not trying to patronize, I really don't know. I always thought Rolls Royce built its own motors, that may have changed since it split between cars and planes, but I really don't know.

[clutch-monkey]

Just out of curiosity who does build the Rolls Royce and Bentley motors? Not trying to patronize, I really don't know. I always thought Rolls Royce built its own motors, that may have changed since it split between cars and planes, but I really don't know.

i think rollsroyce have their engines built by BMW, and some bentleys have bentleys own 6.35L V8 - the W12 engine si don't know, audi maybe?

["Clevor" Angel]

Well if its a W12 wouldn't it be Volkswagen? Or does Audi make a W motor, becuse as of yet I haven't heard of an Audi W12.

[clutch-monkey]

Well if its a W12 wouldn't it be Volkswagen? Or does Audi make a W motor, becuse as of yet I haven't heard of an Audi W12.

the audi W12 is in the transporter 2
but yeah maybe its a volskwagon engine, that makes sense.

[kennyknoxville]

enzo. no competition

[BMW325]

the Porsche...for the sweet clutch and V10 sound...
oh, and it looks the best too IMO

[Cadillac Imaj]

Something like the SLR vs Enzo vs Carrera GT thread...

Back to the topic : Posh, please.

[man 430gt]

Enzo for me, it's just stands out from the crowd, I know this since i've
a)Been drivin in one (only for 2 minutes but still amazing)
b)When you do see one on teh road, chances are you heard it first.
c)It's a ferrari.

[The Pilot]

The Red Devil! Ferrari. It's hotttt.

[RazaBlade]

Well, post-Top Gear we all know that the Zonda is actually the fastest out of them, so for me, that demotes the Enzo all the way down the list, because if it cant do the job it was made for, then its a failure.

[RacingManiac]

Point taken. Same way when the Japanese started contending in the luxury segment,
People would say, “it’s just a Toyota”. Being accepted as an equal amongst competitors is no easy feat. I guess I’m showing my bias.




This is a question of degree. Using common fasteners and common crankshafts are very different. In Grand Prix racing only top engine manufacturers are competitive. Ford engined cars also run but I don’t think the lack luster performance is because they are getting generic parts from a different source, it’s the basic design and manufacture of their engines that’s lacking. Toyota in just three years has become competitive. Toyota also dedicated $180 million towards engine development alone.

Back to the McLaren F1. I am not calling it a fraud. Companies that have been around just naturally garner more respect from me. If McLaren continues to build marvelous cars in the future then they will definitely command respect from an even wider enthusiast base.

Ford Cosworth DFV V8 is still the single most successful engine in Grand Prix racing, and it powered anything from Lotus to Tyrrell.....

In Grand Prix racing there was no such thing as a manufacturer team for most of the era. Ferrari is usually the exception, while Renault, Honda and so on have been with the championship at some point or another. But it is not until now that most of the team became manufacturer's team. Constructor meanwhile, like Williams, McLaren, Lotus, Tyrell...etc have ALWAYS been the core of racing. They use whichever engine that they worked out a contract with. Be it as DFV V8, or a Honda V10, or a BMW I4 Turbo. So a "TOP Manufacturer" in GP racing until the current era, has always been an engine supplier, not a constructor. While talking about lineage, McLaren has the lineage of being a championship winning constructor(multiple times in the 80s, and when F1 was conceived it was after their all conquering 1988 season), plus success in the name's history in Can-AM racing. So definitely they are not lacking in that department, while the car itself carries technology that was pioneered by McLaren in GP racing, which is the carbon monocoque construction. As stated in the book "Driving Ambition", they would've love to have a Honda engine, but Honda does not want to build the engine to McLaren's spec, and BMW were the only one who would take them on, and thus create the car as we know it.

Kit car uses off the shelf parts, McLaren used all bespoked parts. From engine, transaxle, to even the stereo system, there is nothing kit car about that.....there are no Triumph Spitfire uprights here.....

As to the topic at hand, I voted Porsche because it is the sum of Porsche's engineering know-how, and its a fantastic car. The Zonda F is close 2nd, but some of its stylistic detail are too over the top...

[PerfAdv]

Information assimilated...thanks for that explanation

Since that post about the McLaren F1 I have developed new respect for newcomers in general. Before I would have considered even Pagani and Koenigsegg a cut below the Ferrari and Porsche. The generational cycles necessary to develop a decent product in this era of CAD is less critical.