Citroen DS

[henk4]

Easily the most Citroenised Maserati was the Quattroporte 2, which rolled on an SM type of chassis, including full hydraulic suspension and front wheel drive.

I was not aware that Citroen already tried anti-roll suspension in the fifties. It is a bit strange to read that it was abandoned in favour of the GS, which only appeared in 1970. The following efforts with the Activa 1 and 2 concepts were promising, but the Xantia finally offered to the public did have the full system, but was not very well accepted because of the harsh ride compared to the standard version. (It felt like a BMW )
I don't think that the current hydractive version of the system offer the same amount of roll control as the Xantia Activa did, unless they apply a similar computer controlled system that Mercedes is now applying on the S Class derived models.

[ds20prefecture]

yeah and ONE failure at night and you can't see where your going, cant steer, can't brake, can't change gear, get stuck on a sleeping policeman. If only they made the doors pnuematic assisted and you'd be stuck inside it too

I disagree. The use of priority valves means that the last thing to lose pressure is the brakes. They have their own pressure accumulator too. So in effect the rest of the hydraulic system acts as a backup hydraulic pressure reservoir to the brakes. You also have mechanical brakes that act as a separate set of pads on the front discs - these work well. So the braking system in a DS (and an SM, CX, GS, etc.) has much greater levels of redundancy than those in a normal car.

You will be able to see where your going, as the light are not powered by hydraulic fluid ;-)

The steering is power assisted - it still operates perfectly well without hydraulic pressure. (even in DIRAVI SMs and CXs)

The gearchange - yes if you lose all pressure you'll have no gearchange. In the same way that if you lose electrical power to a tiptronic or SMG gearbox, you'll have no gearchange.

If you cannot sense that the suspension has dropped before getting stranded on a speed bump, perhaps the train might be a better form of transport for you. Or a bicycle

Making one thing do all isnt' a good idea -- but one no doubt the French engineers almost delivered

How many batteries has your car?

[Matra et Alpine]

I disagree.

Of course you would
It comes with being a DS-lover !!!
Anythign "shared" has a risk of single failures. The obvious one is the fluid and guess what ??? Citroen HAD to sort out when they were getting those failures and switch composition Also, accumulators as back up only work if faults are found early.

So the braking system in a DS (and an SM, CX, GS, etc.) has much greater levels of redundancy than those in a normal car.

No you dont' that "other" set of "machnailca brakes" is the handbrake
We've all got that too

You will be able to see where your going, as the light are not powered by hydraulic fluid ;-)

Not with steerable lights around a vorner you won't

The steering is power assisted - it still operates perfectly well without hydraulic pressure. (even in DIRAVI SMs and CXs)

"perfectly well" -- so why is it piower assisted ? Because it's heavy at low speed.

The gearchange - yes if you lose all pressure you'll have no gearchange. In the same way that if you lose electrical power to a tiptronic or SMG gearbox, you'll have no gearchange.

Were we mentioning any other gearbox ? I didn't think we were

If you cannot sense that the suspension has dropped before getting stranded on a speed bump, perhaps the train might be a better form of transport for you. Or a bicycle

I see you DO REALISE what a smiley is for.
So by now you STILL didnt' get the JOKE ??????

How many batteries has your car?

Two. But it has an alternator too. Soo that makes TWO when running -- hee-hee-hee

You're needing a back-up humour-pack installed. The primary one has failed

You can't defend French engineering. Always in the BRILLIANCE is an inherent small stupidity. How good are you at changing front pads ??? The only car requiring the manifold to be removed to rplace a brake pad !!!!!!

[henk4]

I am a bit concerned that you are getting the "Matra treat" at this moment in your UCP forum membership life. No need for that as I see it, a post cannot be filled up with smileys all the time.

As a matter of fact modern cars will stop anything when the ECU fails or tell drivers through false indications on the dash that there is a fatal error. Simple repairs have become impossible, why be concerned about the brake pads on a DS then. (For a new C8 they have to take out the engine to change the cambelt ).

And yes, the remark that powersteering works without pressure is correct, but I have experienced how difficult it is to keep the car on the road (a BX Diesel in this case) when the engine cuts off (in this because of not cold resistent diesel fuel).

Let's leave the DS on its pedestal, it is not for nothing considered to be the "best" (in whatever sense) car of the 20th century, despite it sometimes quirky engineering.

[Matra et Alpine]

I am a bit concerned that you are getting the "Matra treat" at this moment in your UCP forum membership life. No need for that as I see it, a post cannot be filled up with smileys all the time.

FFS !!!

GET A SENSE OF HUMOUR FOLKS

[ds20prefecture]

Anythign "shared" has a risk of single failures. The obvious one is the fluid and guess what ??? Citroen HAD to sort out when they were getting those failures and switch composition Also, accumulators as back up only work if faults are found early.

Like when the giant STOP light lights up on the dash signifying lack of pressure? And then 2 accumulators are there to help you, well, stop.

No you dont' that "other" set of "machnailca brakes" is the handbrake We've all got that too

Not quite. The DS uses a separate set of pads operating on the front discs. The brake is called the "emergency" brake and is quite capable of stopping the car from 60mph in good time, if sufficient force is applied. Most handbrakes work on a weak lever to the rear drums. Pull it all you want, the best that will happen is that the rear drums will lock up.

Not with steerable lights around a vorner you won't

Er, you will. Only the inner driving lights steer. The main dip and headlight beams are fixed. Nor are the lights hydraulically linked in the DS, only in the SM (in fact I'm not sure of this)

"perfectly well" -- so why is it piower assisted ? Because it's heavy at low speed.

It's really heavy even with the power assistance My point is that you do not need hydraulic pressure to steer the car.

Were we mentioning any other gearbox ? I didn't think we were

"we" were. I did.

I see you DO REALISE what a smiley is for. So by now you STILL didnt' get the JOKE ??????
You're needing a back-up humour-pack installed. The primary one has failed

Ah - a joke. The complete lack of wit disguised it well ;-)

You can't defend French engineering. Always in the BRILLIANCE is an inherent small stupidity.

I can and will defend the engineering in the DS. I'll grant you that the car was not designed to be easily serviced (like any other 50s car).

How good are you at changing front pads ??? The only car requiring the manifold to be removed to rplace a brake pad !!!!!!

You've lost me. Neither inlet nor exhaust manifolds are near the brake pads. They do sit under the radiator, and the job is much easier with the radiator removed (about 15 minutes of a job)

See what I mean about myths?

[Matra et Alpine]

Ah - a joke. The complete lack of wit disguised it well ;-)

Sadly it wasn't recognised then.
So you REALLY thought I was suggesting you couldnt see or coudlnt steer or couldnt brake and would REALLY get stuck on a sleeping policeman ?
oh, you did

I can and will defend the engineering in the DS.

The idiosyncrasies as well ?

I'll grant you that the car was not designed to be easily serviced (like any other 50s car).

erm , EVERY 50s car (Citroen apart) were designed to be easily serviced because most people did their own servicing !!! All it took was a decent set of tools , not the 101 "special" tools of modern cars -- oh wait apart from the French ones ... I've a whole toolbox full of special tools

You've lost me. Neither inlet nor exhaust manifolds are near the brake pads. They do sit under the radiator, and the job is much easier with the radiator removed (about 15 minutes of a job)

Put my hand up, not the DS then. It was a later model and some time ago. But one did.. Ah well can you remind me which ones it is ? ( Presuming you dont have the "special tool" to do it some other way ? )

See what I mean about myths?

"French engineering" is the myth.
Full of fantastic highs dragged down by the stupidest of decisions.
BTW, I own 2 Matras ( 2 if you count the Espace ) and an Alpine.
I can list all the FANTASTIC things about them and dont need to hide from the ABSOLUTELY STUPID things in them too !!!!

Through humour I had only pointed out that it was not all perfection.
Rather than defending I had expected another experienced Franco-auto owner to put their hand up to recognise the downside and enjoy the joke.

[henk4]

FFS !!!

GET A SENSE OF HUMOUR FOLKS

jeez, to be accused of having a lacking sense of humour....

well I am however always careful to start using "humour" (sarcasm/irony) on people that I hardly know and give a serious impression, which might be hiding a sincere sense of humour as well, but this is not a forum where everybody's first post immediately reveals the poster as a stand-up comedian,

[Matra et Alpine]

well I am however always careful to start using "humour" (sarcasm/irony) on people that I hardly know and give a serious impression, which might be hiding a sincere sense of humour as well, but this is not a forum where everybody's first post immediately reveals the poster as a stand-up comedian,

DS's site in the "Technial forum" is excellent and I thought DID show a sense of humour or we wouldnt' have started here
Have you seen any of his stuff ???

[henk4]

Have you seen any of his stuff ???

you could have read that in my post Nr. 26

I saw most of it....

[Matra et Alpine]

you could have read that in my post Nr. 26

I saw most of it....

I didnt' make the connection, I'd gone via his tinyurl and I thought yours was a different site you were referrgin to.
Not one I went too, sorry Pieter, you're not "new" enough

[ds20prefecture]

Dude - I'm all confused. I have posts in a technical forum here? I don't remember posting them....

Of course I got the humour in your posts, but (as I'm sure you have too) I've heard every one of those jokes said straight to my face as serious concerns from people considering buying a DS. Mechanics suck their teeth and say "Ooooh the plumbers nightmare - stay away from them" instead of saying "Oh - a DS, sorry I know nothing about them, but I know a man who does". I'm just running a bit of propaganda here

As a matra & alpine fan, it baffles me to hear you say French engineering is a myth. TGV? Concorde? Airbus? ESA? Panhard et Levassor? Matra must be one of the most interesting european companies of the last 50 years, and alpines are in general stunning. Sure they have flaws but (whisper it) so do BMWs and Hondas.

And so does the DS. It is noisy, underpowered, a bit wallowy, and prone to rust. But it has no "stupid" engineering mistakes and I personally believe that no other car moved the game forward as much as the DS.

[Matra et Alpine]

Dude - I'm all confused. I have posts in a technical forum here? I don't remember posting them....

Soryy, DS, teh "technical" in YOUR site. Lots of nice pics too -- I prefer seeing under the skin than "beauty shots"

I'm just running a bit of propaganda here

Truth will always be rembmered and valued more than propoganda
But yeah, the "is it a kit car" comments about the Matra can get me a little annoyed at times !! But only occasioanly as we also own a kit car !!

As a matra & alpine fan, it baffles me to hear you say French engineering is a myth.

But it IS, because it is always carrying some hoorendous negative somewhere ...

TGV?

Only runs on large concrete base in relatively straight lines that plough through the countryside.

Concorde?

Noise. Cost. Fuel tanks. DO we need to say more ?

Airbus?

Taxpayer support. Quite a few "dubious" crashes NOT attributed to FCS.
But yeah this one's doing a great job - gotta love those British wings !
Guy in the kit car club is on teh electronics team at FIlton, will be going down to see the A380 fly in .

ESA?

Espensive and not as heavy lift as competitiors. Not seen prices for hte new upgraded Ariane launch vehicle.

Panhard et Levassor?

Great leaders, fantastic cars inte h50s/60s winning efficiency index races all teh time. Sadly coudlnt' stop the comapny going bust. Having helped restore a 17 when I was learning about cars I can see why !!

Matra

Matra Bagheera's rusted as you took delivery from teh new sales forecourt
One of our first ones, the front end collapsed after only 3 years due to rust !!
Murena ? galvansied the chassis but not the trailing arms. Guess what !!
Oh and ELECTRICS !! Dont' get me started
Espace ? Let down with stupid thingsk -- air drawn from bottom of engine into the air filter which means you drive into 12" of water and you suck it straight into the engine. See GREAT car ruined with ONE slip of stupidity

alpines

Insufficient cooling of number one cylinder in the PRV mounted in the rear
Electronics that will make a speedo read double and then zero and MIGHT come back if you're lucky before PC Plod catches you

Sure they have flaws but (whisper it) so do BMWs and Hondas.

WHen a Honda or BMW owner says their cars is wonderful compared to your DS, do you remidn them of the problems THEY have ? SOME of them might be honest about it

And so does the DS. It is noisy, underpowered, a bit wallowy, and prone to rust. But it has no "stupid" engineering mistakes and I personally believe that no other car moved the game forward as much as the DS.

"prone to rust" is stupid engineering !!
Just like Minis putting seams that faced forward and had salt water driven INTO them as you went alogn the road
Or the Ford Escort battery tray that retained water till it managed to eat it's way inside
BUT Citroen wrote a whoel new book on car capability. I'm not sure that it succeeded in rewriting the mainstream book, but it moved the goalposts !!!

[ds20prefecture]

"prone to rust" is stupid engineering !!

You just don't give up, do you? Iron is prone to rust. It is not automotive engineering, it is chemistry. The mainstream methods of rust prevention were only coming to the fore when the DS ceased production after 20 years. It is no better or worse than other cars of it's period. So while in absolute terms the DS is more prone to rust than, say, an Audi A8 it is a bit harsh to describe this as "stupid engineering". But I guess you knew that, which is why you posted it.

I'd be intrigued to see your kit car. It is obviously perfect in everyway?

[Matra et Alpine]

You just don't give up, do you? Iron is prone to rust. It is not automotive engineering, it is chemistry. The mainstream methods of rust prevention were only coming to the fore when the DS ceased production after 20 years. It is no better or worse than other cars of it's period. So while in absolute terms the DS is more prone to rust than, say, an Audi A8 it is a bit harsh to describe this as "stupid engineering". But I guess you knew that, which is why you posted it.

So HOW do you consider that SOME cars built of the same materials at the same time were NOT prone to rust ? Because they ensured there were no water traps, no seams where water/mud would build up and be trapped. It's the design of those that was "stupid". Sills were the common worst as they moved to momocoque from chassis strength

About the time there WAS galvanizing still considered expensive, then more modern phosphoric treatments and then steel alloys ! I gave you TWO other makers examples where stupidity ensured rusting with nothing to do with "modern" treatments -- actually the Ford was supposed to I was NOT comparing it with modern cars. I WAS comparing it with a "well thought and engineered solution" which is usually clear when we look at where our favourite cars get eaten away most -- see first comment on Mini and Escort !!

I'd be intrigued to see your kit car. It is obviously perfect in everyway?

Not at all.
Did you READ my comments on my Matras, Alpines, Renaults ? I am a person who is able to be open and honest about the plus AND NEGATIVES of all things I own and believe.
It's a kit car, so the electrics are always iffy in damp weather - usually solved by removing and replacing and in some cases adding earth straps. It doesnt' get the time and cost investment a "real " car gets in development , so the Quantum once you get above 90 the door tops move about 2mm and it makes THE most annoying whistling sound. Either pull the door top in - it doens't take a lot of force - or better still get too 100 and it goes away. The rest of the cars is donor XR2. So the dash is plastic and the CVH engine is tappety.

See, you possibly made the mistake of assuming someone else would blindly defend their ownership.
I DO defend, but do it honestly. And the one BIG thing on the Quantum is it's only one second a lap slower at Crail than my bloody Alpine !!! and cost 1/20th !!!!! And most importantly it's cheap to insure for my daughter and is MUCH stronger than most modern road cars.