Citroen DS

[ds20prefecture]

It is the fluid reservoir.

In cars produced before 1967 (european market) and 1969 (US Market) the fluid was LHS - a synthetic fluid similar to Dot 3 Brake Fluid. In these cars the reservoir (and all hydraulic components) are painted black. Thereafter they were painted green to signify the use of LHM - a mineral based fluid.

LHS is hygroscopic - i.e. it absorbs moisture from the air. This leads to early demise of hydraulic components if the fluid is not changed at the specified interval (6 months to a year) particularly if the car is sitting idle. LHS, like brake fluid, is corrosive to paint so a spill is expensive. Because of the difficulty in sourcing LHS, a friend of mine runs Canola instead of LHS with good results. Canola (as I understand it) is not hygroscopic and is kind to paint. He has observed minor swelling of some seals, but nothing that threatens the integrity of the components.

LHM is great stuff by comparison to LHS. Its viscosity stays stable over a wider range of temperatures, it actually protects anything it spills on and doesn't absorb moisture at all. As a result, LHM cars need a bit less maintenance. Unfortunately this also co-incides (generally) with the later front (shark-nose with turning headlamps) instead of the arguably prettier earlier cars.

Many regard a pre Sept 1967 DS21 Pallas as the "best" DS as it has the Pallas trim (only available after 1965), the 2175cc engine (only available from 1967) LHM (again, '67) and yet retains the round lights of the "frog-eye" DS. Not me though. I much prefer the pre 1962 cars, with the original swoopy dash and double-bladed front bumper - like the left most one in your photos there, Henk4.

[ds20prefecture]

Nope its probably one of these

http://cantstopthebomb.ytmnd.com/

No, you fill. A Bimb!
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/09...k_bomb_ordeal/

[henk4]

Thanks for the explanation, just wondering why the use of LHM is simply not possible on the cars with the "red" fluid

[ds20prefecture]

It's to do with seal compatibility. The LHM causes LHS seals to swell and disintegrate over a short period of time. Likewise vice-versa. You can rebuild an LHS hydraulic component to be LHM by replacing all of the seals, diaphragms and "boots" to be LHM compatible, but it's a helluva job. You'd also have to repaint the component green for fear someone put the wrong fluid in. Then the originality freaks will get you (I'd be leading the pack )There are some rubbers that are compatible with both, but I don't think all are available.

[henk4]

It's to do with seal compatibility. The LHM causes LHS seals to swell and disintegrate over a short period of time. Likewise vice-versa. You can rebuild an LHS hydraulic component to be LHM by replacing all of the seals, diaphragms and "boots" to be LHM compatible, but it's a helluva job. You'd also have to repaint the component green for fear someone put the wrong fluid in. Then the originality freaks will get you (I'd be leading the pack )There are some rubbers that are compatible with both, but I don't think all are available.

Yep, I had forgotten about the originality freaks.....

btw here is one of the oldest DSs in existence, still with a central exhaust

[ds20prefecture]

What year is it? Chassis number 32 was up until recently owned by a guy called Martin Boersma in Holland. It is alleged to be the oldest surviving production DS. Someone recently discovered prototype chassis ELV31, but it has had many "upgrades" including stuff from 60s DSs fitted.

I drove a '57 last October owned by an Australian friend of mine (he with the Canola hydraulic system). They are a nicer car to drive than the later ones, being much softer and smoother.

I also got a lift in a 1958 Chapron convertible, probably the oldest one in existence. It is in excellent condition and excellent hands.

[henk4]

What year is it? Chassis number 32 was up until recently owned by a guy called Martin Boersma in Holland. It is alleged to be the oldest surviving production DS. Someone recently discovered prototype chassis ELV31, but it has had many "upgrades" including stuff from 60s DSs fitted.

I drove a '57 last October owned by an Australian friend of mine (he with the Canola hydraulic system). They are a nicer car to drive than the later ones, being much softer and smoother.

I also got a lift in a 1958 Chapron convertible, probably the oldest one in existence. It is in excellent condition and excellent hands.

IIRC correctly the guy who showed the car (Retromobile 2005) said it was a number in the 150's. So it probably not the oldest, but still.

BTW, have you ever been able to visit the Aladdin's cave where Citroen is storing all its prototypes? It is not open to the public, but I guess some people might be able to get access there.

[ds20prefecture]

BTW, have you ever been able to visit the Aladdin's cave where Citroen is storing all its prototypes? It is not open to the public, but I guess some people might be able to get access there.

The Conservatoire? No, but I'd love to. A number of my friends have (it is by appointment and referral only) and say it is worth the trip.

[henk4]

The Conservatoire? No, but I'd love to. A number of my friends have (it is by appointment and referral only) and say it is worth the trip.

Any links that we could use as referral? From what I heard the cars are stored in a rather unfavourable way for good photography.

[ds20prefecture]

Any links that we could use as referral? From what I heard the cars are stored in a rather unfavourable way for good photography.

I don't. If I get the time I'll try to get in myself, but I'd have to find out how to go about it from the guys who have been.

That's the first I've heard of unfavourable conditions.

[henk4]

I don't. If I get the time I'll try to get in myself, but I'd have to find out how to go about it from the guys who have been.

That's the first I've heard of unfavourable conditions.

well, it is not a museum actually and from pictures I think I have seen, it looked like the cars are rather packed.

[njsimca]

You forgot to mentino one of the NEATEST ideas Citroen brought to the drivability of a car.
The suspension was not only self-levelling, but also the driver coudl select ride height. Raise it for rough roads but handling was slightly compromised, lowest for motorway cruisign reducing the drag. Fantastic. AND great fun to play with it while sitting beside someone at traffic lights

Downside when parking. Once settled it was possible not to be able to open a door because of the kerb

and what about steerable lights ??

and the funky one-spoke steering wheel ? no comments ?? Persoanlly I always reckoned it just sat there TELLING you it was going to stab you in the head in the event of an accident

Obviously, most of the greatest advances of the DS were lost on the automotive industry in general... the amazingly complex hydraulic assists, the incredible comfort, the fun of driving the thing have never been equalled, even 50 years later. Look at the inboard front disc brakes, the high-mounted turn signals, the pillarless window glass, the safety steering wheel and, later, the incredibly simple swivelling headlights. I think Lexus has them now, but they are electrically operated, and who knows (or cares) if or how they work! There will never be a car that makes me feel quite as special as I did piloting the Goddess!

Great fun could be had, and probably great strain on the hydraulics, if you came to a stop light and (without ever taking your hands from the wheel!) held your foot firmly on the brake. (Normally, one would release the brake pedal a little, or completely, and the car would level out, as, inevitably it would be a tiny bit off level as a result of the stopping). Well, by holding the brake pedal, tremendous pressure builds up as the car tries and tries to level itself, which it cannot do because the rear wheels need to rotate ever so slightly in order for the level to change. If the brake is held tight, they cannot rotate. After a few seconds, completely release the brake pedal and the car will SHOOT up or down (depending on which direction it was attempting to go). If you then quickly press the brake and hold it in that extreme position, the cycle will begin again, and you can literally shoot up and down - it's AWESOME and makes people FREAK OUT!!

As it turns out, the curved, single spoke of the DS steering wheel rests at about 7:30 or so on the clock face, and is meant to direct (throw) the driver towards the centerline of the car in a nasty crash, presumably where he will be best protected.

[henk4]

Obviously, most of the greatest advances of the DS were lost on the automotive industry in general... the amazingly complex hydraulic assists, the incredible comfort, the fun of driving the thing have never been equalled, even 50 years later. Look at the inboard front disc brakes, the high-mounted turn signals, the pillarless window glass, the safety steering wheel and, later, the incredibly simple swivelling headlights. I think Lexus has them now, but they are electrically operated, and who knows (or cares) if or how they work! There will never be a car that makes me feel quite as special as I did piloting the Goddess!

Great fun could be had, and probably great strain on the hydraulics, if you came to a stop light and (without ever taking your hands from the wheel!) held your foot firmly on the brake. (Normally, one would release the brake pedal a little, or completely, and the car would level out, as, inevitably it would be a tiny bit off level as a result of the stopping). Well, by holding the brake pedal, tremendous pressure builds up as the car tries and tries to level itself, which it cannot do because the rear wheels need to rotate ever so slightly in order for the level to change. If the brake is held tight, they cannot rotate. After a few seconds, completely release the brake pedal and the car will SHOOT up or down (depending on which direction it was attempting to go). If you then quickly press the brake and hold it in that extreme position, the cycle will begin again, and you can literally shoot up and down - it's AWESOME and makes people FREAK OUT!!

As it turns out, the curved, single spoke of the DS steering wheel rests at about 7:30 or so on the clock face, and is meant to direct (throw) the driver towards the centerline of the car in a nasty crash, presumably where he will be best protected.

thanks for posting, the trick with the moving car while sationary can still be successfully performed in modern hydraulic Citroens like the Xantia and the C5, which still also operate with the same or even better levels of comfort than the original DS.
The new C6 is even better and was tested recently in BBC's Top Gear show. Jeremy Clarkson took the car a as carrier for shooting horses races. The camera was put on the roof (normally the camera crew used the big CX-XM Breaks for this purpose), and the first 1000 meters of the race were covered with the C6 and images were pretty stable. The next 1000 meters were covered with a camera put on the roof of a BMW 5-series and the images became so shakey that watching was impossible.... Quite convincing stuff.

And welcome to UCP...

[drakkie]

the trick with the moving car while sationary can still be successfully performed in modern hydraulic Citroens like the Xantia and the C5, which still also operate with the same or even better levels of comfort than the original DS.

He just gave me a idea what to do if my dad asks to get the C5 out of the garage and to the front door

As you said the level of comfort is indeed far superior. i have to say though that the C5 is a bit harder as previous models with the hydractive suspension. The only car coming close to the comfort levels of the car was my uncle C's 59 buick. However it wouldnt stop bouncing after a speed bump(atleast 4 times up&down)

[csl177]

Beautiful car ds20... and the thread info is great stuff. This is on the subject, but in another direction: the Citroen DS in film. We've all seen the car as a prop, especially it seems, in spy flicks. But recently (2004?) an indie movie included the DS20 as the principal plot source, a flick called the Goddess. It follows the story of a Japanese guy who steals money from the Yakuza in order to go to Australia and buy his dream car, which he always refers to as "My Goddess". Kinda sureal, but a good film... a crime/adventure/romance/road trip escapade. Check it out.

The car is one of those odd shades popular in the '60s, sorta pumpkin colored.
Really looked very nice.

Ooops, sorry, the title is The Goddess of 1967, here's a link:
http://movies2.nytimes.com/gst/movie...ml?v_id=220902