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Thread: More US Government hypocrisy

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jakg
    no, F-22 raptors are not untouchable, you said the same thing in Vietnam and you got blown to peices by inexpensive rockets
    We're not thinking of the same plane, the F-22 came into service in the late 90's. Its the most menuverable fighter ever made. One of only a few planes, and one of only 2 or 3 fighters that can supercruise for long periods of time. And it is UNTOUCHABLE, in live tests, 1 raptor was able to evade 7 F-15 fighters piloted by the best the USAF has to offer. In under 3 minutes the F-15's were taken out, they never got a shot off or even saw the F-22. Its even more stealthy than the F-117 Stealth Fighter.
    Perhaps your thinking of the F-15? In which case you'd be right.

    Here are some links(the last few are of the specs from different sources):

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...1389428&q=F-22
    http://www.f22fighter.com/Specs.htm
    http://www.f22-raptor.com/technology/index.html
    http://f22rapt.tripod.com/specs.htm
    http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...craft/f-22.htm
    Last edited by "Clevor" Angel; 02-01-2006 at 01:16 PM.
    Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin
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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by "Clevor" Angel
    We're not thinking of the same plane, the F-22 came into service in the late 90's. Its the most menuverable fighter ever made. One of only a few planes, and one of only 2 or 3 fighters that can supercruise for long periods of time. And it is UNTOUCHABLE, in live tests, 1 raptor was able to evade 7 F-15 fighters piloted by the best the USAF has to offer. In under 3 minutes the F-15's were taken out, they never got a shot off or even saw the F-22.
    Perhaps your thinking of the F-15? In which case you'd be right.
    no, i understand how expensive the F-22 was, but i am thinking of how the US Government thought the large helicopter gunships were invincible, just remember, nothing is, no matter how much it costs

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by "Clevor" Angel
    And it is UNTOUCHABLE, in live tests, 1 raptor was able to evade 7 F-15 fighters piloted by the best the USAF has to offer.
    British "ancient technology" Jaguars were often able to do THAT during the regular NATO head to heads

    Yeah the F-22 is WAY ahead on stealth and stand-off weaponry.

    BUT in Vietnam, the Sabre was way ahead of the Mig of the day and it wasn't a clear winner. Why ? Because the enemy could afford to put up enough of the simple cheap stuff as sacrifice for one of them to get a hit.

    The thing about weapons is that just across the wall from the developer of the ultimate technology is the developer of the ultimate response

    But that's thinking like a military adviser. The enemy aren't Sandhurst/West Point trained anymore. They dont' think the same way. A "dirty" bomb at an airfield will take out 50 F-22s
    "A woman without curves is like a road without bends, you might get to your destination quicker but the ride is boring as hell'

  4. #64
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    Expense has nothing to do with it, yes it was a $40,000,000,000 project but the plane is the absolute best out there. Check out the links I added to my previous post.
    About the gunships though your right. I remember one US general saying publicly "we are winning the war slowly, battle by battle" or something like that just a few weeks before we pulled out.

    EDIT: you guys are posting fast, anyway in response to Matra, the Sabre was not as good as the Russian MIG's. The Migs could go faster, take harder turns, and had comparable weapons. We got by with better pilots.
    Last edited by "Clevor" Angel; 02-01-2006 at 01:24 PM.
    Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin
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  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spastik_Roach
    China could probably invade Americas ass, have you seen the size of its bloody army?!
    This would hold true if I didn't live in America. Considering I live on the eastern shoreline of America, any army invading in my direction stands no chance, unless they enjoy complete mutilation of their forces.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by "Clevor" Angel
    Expense has nothing to do with it, yes it was a $40,000,000,000 project but the plane is the absolute best out there. Check out the links I added to my previous post.
    About the gunships though your right. I remember one US general saying publicly "we are winning the war slowly, battle by battle" or something like that just a few weeks before we pulled out.
    "With a planned production run of 179 aircraft (or possibly as high as 277), the F-22 is too important to be risked in a dogfight." from www.strategypage.com/dls/articles/20054421.asp

    The ONLY person so far to have flown the Eurofighter AND the F-22

    That doesnt' even take into consideration the cheaper Grippen and Rafale.
    "A woman without curves is like a road without bends, you might get to your destination quicker but the ride is boring as hell'

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rockefella
    This would hold true if I didn't live in America. Considering I live on the eastern shoreline of America, any army invading in my direction stands no chance, unless they enjoy complete mutilation of their forces.
    What abotu a tunnel from Cuba ?

    you never know what the French did with the machine after they finished the channel tunnel ( we do really, one is buried there and the other was up for sale )

    PS: "Clevor" the Sabre did NOT have comparable weapons. The Migs were cannons, the Sabres were the second gen missiles and puny machine guns. It was only after losses that the Sabre got proper cannons fitted to be able to stay and fight it out succesfully. Realised you might be thingking the Super Saber ? F-100 ?? Anyway checkign the years of oepration I found a lovely snippet on Wiki ( so not guaranteed ) but interesting ..... ""Review of recently released Soviet documents that had been classified top secret until the fall of the Soviet Union shows that the American pilots claimed to shoot down more than twice the number of MiG-15s than ever served in Korea,"" Looks like the air war had the same problems as the ground with the "numbers for the brass"
    Last edited by Matra et Alpine; 02-01-2006 at 01:34 PM.
    "A woman without curves is like a road without bends, you might get to your destination quicker but the ride is boring as hell'

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine
    "With a planned production run of 179 aircraft (or possibly as high as 277), the F-22 is too important to be risked in a dogfight." from www.strategypage.com/dls/articles/20054421.asp

    The ONLY person so far to have flown the Eurofighter AND the F-22

    That doesnt' even take into consideration the cheaper Grippen and Rafale.
    Good point, the Eurofighter is an AWESOME plane, but the Raptor can out-meneuver it. And meneuverability is key in dogfights. The planes you speak of aren't designed purely as air superiority fighters though, their multi-role fighters in which case speed is more important. All in all though the Eurofighter is about as fast and can carry more bombs.
    Last edited by "Clevor" Angel; 02-01-2006 at 01:37 PM.
    Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin
    OBSESSED is a word the lazy use to describe the DEDICATED!

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by "Clevor" Angel
    Good point, the Eurofighter is an AWESOME plane, but the Raptor can out-meneuver it. And meneuverability is key in dogfights.
    That's 1980s !!
    IN dogfights for todays pilot the ability to identify and select MULTIPLE opponents, select weapons to each and fire-and-forget is KEY to success.
    You dont' need to "point" missiles at planes any more. That's old sidewinder technology. Modern digital battleground has secure comms to communicate location and targetting.
    Outmaneouvring the MISSILE is important and whilst most modern plance can actually achieve that if required, the pilot can't stay conscious during the attempt !! So it comes back to the electronics and the arsenal. So jsut as with any "weapon" it will be last one standing with a bullet in the chamber who has the best chance of winning.
    "A woman without curves is like a road without bends, you might get to your destination quicker but the ride is boring as hell'

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by "Clevor" Angel
    Good point, the Eurofighter is an AWESOME plane, but the Raptor can out-meneuver it. And meneuverability is key in dogfights. The planes you speak of aren't designed purely as air superiority fighters though, their multi-role fighters in which case speed is more important. All in all though the Eurofighter is about as fast and can carry more bombs.
    didnt you just forget about the other two planes?

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jakg
    didnt you just forget about the other two planes?
    The Gripen and Rafale? No, they are both multi-role fighters just like the Eurofighter but again, aren't as stealthy, fast, or meneuverable as the F-22. All of them are absolute First class planes in every respect, they all carry out the roles they are designed for better than any other plane.
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  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine
    That's 1980s !!
    IN dogfights for todays pilot the ability to identify and select MULTIPLE opponents, select weapons to each and fire-and-forget is KEY to success.
    You dont' need to "point" missiles at planes any more. That's old sidewinder technology. Modern digital battleground has secure comms to communicate location and targetting.
    Outmaneouvring the MISSILE is important and whilst most modern plance can actually achieve that if required, the pilot can't stay conscious during the attempt !! So it comes back to the electronics and the arsenal. So jsut as with any "weapon" it will be last one standing with a bullet in the chamber who has the best chance of winning.
    I never argued that fact. The Eurofighter can carry more missles is all I said. Avionics is only half the key to success, pilots who can keep up with the plane are the other half.

    Ps: Not really related to the current discussion but I'm wondering what are your views are on the SR-71?
    Last edited by "Clevor" Angel; 02-01-2006 at 01:49 PM.
    Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin
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  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by "Clevor" Angel
    The Gripen and Rafale? No, they are both multi-role fighters just like the Eurofighter but again, aren't as stealthy, fast, or meneuverable as the F-22. All of them are absolute First class planes in every respect, they all carry out the roles they are designed for better than any other plane.
    Watch out for assuming "multi-role" means compromise

    The radar in the Rafale for example can independently track 40 targets up to 150km away and launch 8 SIMULTANEOUS "MICA" missiles to take the chosen ones out. And track and adjust targetting all the way to final lock. Modern fighter electronics ( BTW the French ones are considered the best ... live with it ) are all about REMOVING the need for the pilot to be "better" than the opponent. See the many quotes on the F-22 - if it gets into a dog-fight then something went wrong somewhere, it's not designed for that role.

    Weapons and ECM systems can and will be upgraded on an on-going basis so a platforms flexibility is going to be key 10-20 years from now

    Loved the SR-71, the ultimate demonstration of what happens when you give someone all the money they need and ask them to do the impossible
    Last edited by Matra et Alpine; 02-01-2006 at 02:10 PM.
    "A woman without curves is like a road without bends, you might get to your destination quicker but the ride is boring as hell'

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine
    Watch out for assuming "multi-role" means compromise

    Never assumed anything, companies make planes to do one specific thing great and others well.

    The radar in the Rafale for example can independantly track 40 targets up to 150km away and launch 8 SIMULTANEOUS "MICA" missiles to take the chosen ones out. And track and adjust targetting all the way to final lock. Modern fighter electroncics ( BTW the French ones are considered the best ... live with it ) area ll about REMOVING the need for the pilot to be "better" than the opponent. See the many quotes on teh F-22 - if it gest into a dog-fight then somethign went wrong somewhere, it's not designed for that role.

    I'm not taking the "America has the best of everything" stance. I know the F-22 is not supposed to be a dogfighter, but a dogfight could occur if the plane is spotted during a mission the F-22 was designed for and so it was designed to dogfight well.

    Weapons and ECM systems can and will be upgraded on an on-going basis so a platforms flexibility is going to be key 10-20 years from now

    Just to let you know, they've been building planes with that idea for the past 30 years. Otherwise Migs, F-15s and F-18s would be ineffective now.

    Loved the SR-71, the ultimate demosntration of what happens when you give somene all the money they need and ask them to do the impossible

    So do you disapprove of the circumstances of its creation?
    2200+mph and a ceiling over 90,000ft
    Last edited by "Clevor" Angel; 02-01-2006 at 05:18 PM.
    Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin
    OBSESSED is a word the lazy use to describe the DEDICATED!

  15. #75
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    Dogfighting is probably the last thing the Pilots and Planes are capable of - nowadays a Plane can spot an enemy from such a distance by the time the Missile is Underway and spotted, the enemy cannot pick it's take-off point.

    F-22's are a great aircraft, but again, In order to achieve the desired goals of their customer, they have had to limit some areas so they can work better with others. you understand? i don't

    Think of a Decathlon Athlete; the point is to have the capability to do 10 things, but not to be so specialised that they can blitz one area and get left behind in others. It's actually a smart way to design an aircraft.

    Doesn't make it the best ever/out ATM, but it does make a good aircraft.
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