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Thread: Mosley keen for more backmarkers in F1

  1. #1
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    Mosley keen for more backmarkers in F1

    http://www.planet-f1.com/news/story_22106.shtml

    Max wants F1 to adopt a promotion/relegation system in 2008
    Wednesday February 15 2006
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    FIA President Max Mosley is keen to see Formula One adopt a promotion and relegation system in 2008, which he hopes will add excitement to the sport.
    Earlier this week at his pre-season address in London, Mosley spoke about his plans to link Formula One to the current GP2 series.

    This would be done in order to facilitate teams swapping between the two Championship with the bottom two F1 teams being relegated to the junior series at the end of each season and the top two GP2 teams promoted to Formula One.

    "It is one of the new things we are looking at and it would be nice because it is necessary," Mosley told the BBC.

    "Promotion, and relegation, would add a huge amount of new interest. It is natural and it would be very stimulating for everyone."

    However, in order for his plan to work, the FIA President admits F1ís costs will have to be dramatically reduced.

    "First we do have to get the costs fully under control so that promoted teams, quite possibly smaller, independent teams, could afford to make the step up into Formula One."

    He even went as far as to suggest that about £65m should be the target as he believes most teams, even junior ones, could find that amount.

    "They will already have some success, an efficient management and sponsors.

    "And they will gain more money, from the commercial side of Formula One, when they go up - thanks to Bernie Ecclestone's increase in payments - and should also find extra sponsors."
    I am the Stig

  2. #2
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    surely the chances to be relegated will attract new entrants to F1. Imagine Ferrari to be in the second league....
    "I find the whole business of religion profoundly interesting, but it does mystify me that otherwise intelligent people take it seriously." Douglas Adams

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    It would be an interesting prospect if you could first imagine Ferrari getting in such a slump theyre the 10th or 11th ranked team!

    Mosley makes it sound like once it gets passed, there'd be nothing the teams could do about it. If i'd put my hard earned money into F1, i'd feel royally screwed over to be relegated to a second tier series.
    I am the Stig

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    How does this work?

    They are supposed to be cutting costs remember...

    Say; Midland come last in the points in 2008, and are "relegated" to GP2.

    Midland don't have a GP2 car, so what, they build their own, or do they just swap cars with the promoted GP2 team?

    Surely a GP2 team can't afford to build an F1 car from scratch...

    If they just swap cars, I suppose that the only people that will be relegated will be the drivers, since Midland won't want a GP2 team with no F1 experience f**king about with their cars, similarly the GP2 team won't want Midland engineers messing with their cars.

    What happens if the "promoted" driver crashes his Midland F1 car; who picks up the bill?

    The GP2 teams won't have enough money; surely if they had that much money they'd be in F1 anyway?

    Midland can't be responsible for it, because that team can't be responsible for running a GP2 team and F1 team on a single budget.

    Who is in control of mid-season development of the cars?

    Do Midland develop the GP2 car?

    If Midland develop their own F1 car for the GP2 drivers, and are promoted for the next season, they might have a car that has been developed for other drivers, and isn't suitable. So they have to start again on a new car to stay competative, or go back to the last season's car that suited their drivers, and get relegated again because it isn't fast enough?

    If an F1 team with limited budget gets relegated to GP2, presumably their income from sponsors is cut, as is TV money.

    If they are "promoted" again; what happens if their budget is now not big enough to continue in F1?

    What happens if their drivers quit the team because they signed up to be F1 drivers, not GP2 drivers?

    Etc, etc...

    An awful lot of difficult problems there, which don't seem to have satisfactory answers.
    Thanks for all the fish

  5. #5
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    the problem with your analysis CS, is you get hung up on who looks after the cars.

    Think about it from the teams who they HOPE will start wanting in to F1 as costs drop - there will be LOTS

    At the moment there is no way for any of them to get in other than sucking up and praying someone drops out. So very little incentive. With a relegation system then they can aspire to F1 with realistic plans to achieve it by proving themselves in the lower formulas. Equally the worst of the F1 teams will know not to dick about or they drop out of the money-pit ! Possibly this might finally mean an end to mediocre drivers getting a seat in F1 because they bring MONEY to pay for it. Nobody would run kartekeyian in fear that they get relegated, so better drivers will get a better shot in F1 hopefully.

    Think of sports where relegation is the norm. ie Premier League ? Is it better for the sport for the worst performers to drop down a league and the better ones to come up ? Do teams die because they drop to the lower league ? Now they restructure, sometimes sell players and plan for how to come back up. Of course the poorer managed teams may well drop more leagues and go to the wall. Better that than stay in the top league and make a mockery of the "sport" ?

    Preventing any cartel having a monopoly on who is allowed in to the F1 elite is going to be even more important in the future. You could imaging a Ferrari, BMW, Renault, Mercedes cartel trying to stop a forces like ProDrive ( or M-sport ) being allowed in to the sport knowing that they have the skills to beat them on track -- one of the concerns I had with the whole GPMA proposal for an alternative manufacturer centric race series !!!
    Last edited by Matra et Alpine; 02-15-2006 at 06:09 AM.
    "A woman without curves is like a road without bends, you might get to your destination quicker but the ride is boring as hell'

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine
    Think of sports where relegation is the norm. ie Premier League ?
    Yes, but the point is that GP2 cars and F1 cars are very different.

    That is the point of having the different series.

    If Man U are relegated, they don't need to suddenly come up with an ice rink and a team of people who can play ice hockey do they?

    F1 and GP2 are the same; racing round a track, but the equipment is different.

    Ice Hockey and Football are the same; teams of players trying to get goals, but the equipment is different.

    If it is the actual teams that are relegated, I can't see how it works.

    It would have to be the whole team that moves to the different category.

    So, a GP2 team would surely need to develop an F1 car and a GP2 car incase they were promoted the next season.

    If they were promoted, they'd need a competative car otherwise they would go straight back down again the next season; they can't start an F1 car from scratch in October.

    Similarly, low ranking F1 teams would need to have a GP2 car ready as well as their F1 programme - whilst top F1 teams have only the F1 car to budget for.

    I cannot imagine a situation where a GP2 team and F1 team simply swapped cars; what would happen if the F1 team came back to F1, and the GP2 team wasn't relegated?

    The F1 team would want it's cars back, meaning the GP2 team would have to swap again with another team...

    What about the sponsors?

    Vodaphone won't sign a 5 year deal with McLaren if they could suddenly wind up in a different series with 10% of the coverage of F1

    So unless you make F1 and GP2 cars virtually identical, there is a big problem there.

    And if you make F1 and GP2 the same, what is the point of having both?
    Thanks for all the fish

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coventrysucks
    Yes, but the point is that GP2 cars and F1 cars are very different.

    That is the point of having the different series.

    If Man U are relegated, they don't need to suddenly come up with an ice rink and a team of people who can play ice hockey do they?
    No, but they DO change the shape of their team etc etc,.

    Race cars are race cars, there is more transferable than there is not
    F1 and GP2 are the same; racing round a track, but the equipment is different.
    Not significantly !!
    The recent few years of engien rules have removed the HUGE differences that once existed in the technology deplyed. The construciton of the cars is now the same. What do you think is so radically different ?? Only teh money spent -- nad THIS is all about trygin to reduce the differential
    Ice Hockey and Football are the same; teams of players trying to get goals, but the equipment is different.
    So explain how Pro-Drive moved from success in rallying to Gt cars to F1 ?
    Sorry there is MORE COMMON in the engineering than there is different
    If it is the actual teams that are relegated, I can't see how it works.
    Because I think you are measuring the team by it's current output.
    Any team capable of designign and deplyoing next seasons F1 car can equally dply next years GP2 car - IF THEY are good.
    Equally so,m any team in this year GP2 can deply an F1 IF THEY HAVE THE INVESTMENT to step up a leve.

    ( Think back to the days fo when the Premier lLeague set new requriemtns on football grounds.Lots of people said that it woudl stop teams movign up etc et c.. Look around they all managed it ( some tooka whiel tho' )
    So, a GP2 team would surely need to develop an F1 car and a GP2 car incase they were promoted the next season.
    And they are not that different any more.
    You make it sound as if it somehow hapens by accident
    Again think of football. Many MANY div1 teams buy players to make them successful in the Premier in the ex[pectation of winnign the league and being promoted.
    WHY do you think it woudl be any differet ?
    Again look at how Pro-drive uses TECHNOLOGY to share amongst it's many forays into motorposrt.
    It is teh TECHNOLOGY not the manufature that is the winning formula.
    I think you get hung up on teh car and donr' grasp the busness. IF you wre runnign a GP2 team withthe aim to get to F1 whwat do you do ?
    Currently you live in hope someone drops out and you get a chance. In these new rules you coudl seriously decvelop a plan to achieve it and if you were a good businessman you WOUDL develop the F1 car ready to be competitive and avoid a drop down the follwing year !! It's not hard. happens in sport all teh time and has ben stoped for too long in F1 because fo the BIG boys protecting themselves.
    If they were promoted, they'd need a competative car otherwise they would go straight back down again the next season; they can't start an F1 car from scratch in October.
    yep, and anyeon NOT doign so deserves to bomb.
    Think about the football analogy again and look at tema make-up. They dont have one team to get IN to Premier and then plan a new team to stay there. It's about having the skil and capability to move up and stay up.
    It's not hard, but has beeen impossible in current setup
    Similarly, low ranking F1 teams would need to have a GP2 car ready as well as their F1 programme - whilst top F1 teams have only the F1 car to budget for.
    Not really.
    If they are dropped down then they can take as logn as they want to get a GP2 team up and ruinning. IF htey want to come back up quickly then YES they will have had a GP2 design on teh board ready to go. If not they take a season or two to come back aup. THINK *PLEASE* about hte analogy I've given you and not have me explain every possibility So when premier tem is demoted they have two choices, work to come up quickly or work to consolidate and take a few seasons to come up. Each woudl be driven by their skills and their revenue.
    SO a team woudl be able to do it.
    BTW, look around, most chassis makers are playing in many formulas already !!!
    I cannot imagine a situation where a GP2 team and F1 team simply swapped cars; what would happen if the F1 team came back to F1, and the GP2 team wasn't relegated?
    YOU ARE FOCUSSING ON THE CARS.
    Please grasp it is the TEAM that goes up or down NOT THE drivers in teh cars.
    You 've got it all screwed and it's affecting how you analyse it.
    I've tried to suggest thingking of tehm as teams and rather than thinking it through so far youv'e only tried to see the possible PROBLEMS> See the whole process !
    Thsi all happens lots of times in lower formulas of racing. Teams aspire to move up, and move back when they dont succeed. Most do it with "junior" teams they retain in the lower forumal. Teh unnlucky ones come back adn rebuild fro mteh junior team. Look at history and you will see how often it has happened and happened succesfully. I fear you ahve;'t done that yet and will benefit mroe form a alittle study than shotting ducks here
    The F1 team would want it's cars back, meaning the GP2 team would have to swap again with another team...

    What about the sponsors?

    Vodaphone won't sign a 5 year deal with McLaren if they could suddenly wind up in a different series with 10% of the coverage of F1

    So unless you make F1 and GP2 cars virtually identical, there is a big problem there.

    And if you make F1 and GP2 the same, what is the point of having both?
    All thses exhinbit that confusing over what actuall moves.
    Once it's grapsed we can discuss further.
    I've triued uptemeen ways to explroe an explanatino you can grasp on how business woudl move. Until THAT is fundamentally grapsed this woudl jstu be more duck-shoowing and resetting on minor poitns and needing repeition beacuse they're not grasped.

    Please spend time thiknign rahther than responding. It will help the on-goign discussion. until then I'm not responding with any more tomes
    "A woman without curves is like a road without bends, you might get to your destination quicker but the ride is boring as hell'

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    I see what you are saying; if the GP2 team has skilled people they would be able to make an F1 car.

    Look at BAR; look at Toyota; etc.

    They all took more than a season to get clear of the "relegation" zone, and they had competant people on board.

    The risk is that the GP2/F1 teams will start yo-yo ing up and down with one season in F1, one in GP2, one in F1...

    The GP2 team makes it up, doesn't quite get it right, goes down, but are still good enough at Gp2 to come back the next year, but F1 has moved on a notch and they still can't get it right...

    They would need a dedicated team running the GP2 outfit, and another trying to keep abreast of F1 developments so that they could be competative.

    Yes, Prodrive can be successful in WRC, GT and F1, but they are a massive operation with a huge budget.

    How can you do this and make budgets less?

    What about sponsors; the top corperate sponsors will not like being dropped down a peg, think of how the lower F1 teams are already struggling to get sponsors, and if they hear they might not be in F1, there will be even less.

    Unless you make F1 and GP2 incredibly similar; chassis, gearboxes, engines etc, it will be too difficult for a team to have a good start to a season; start an F1 car, then fail to make it.

    You can't start work on a F1 spec V8 in October one year and be rivaling top-level f1 teams in March the next.

    It would be a lot of time and resources wasted, because more than likely, if the chance to get into F1 arises again, the work they have done will be out of date.

    And if the team is definately to be relegated, will they give up on their F1 car 1/2 way through the season to focus on a winning GP2 car?

    It may make for better privateer teams, and better racing, but F1 will not be the "ultimate" motorsport, especially if they aren't that different to GP2, or as manufacturers quit for more "secure" series where they are guaranteed to stay in the limelight.

    BMW and Honda bought F1 teams, not GP2 teams.

    Do you think they will continue to spend that money if they suddenly don't have F1 teams anymore?

    Or will they go into GT, WRC, or Touring cars instead?

    I could understand A1 and GP2 doing this, because they are very similar, but F1 doesn't make much sense.
    Thanks for all the fish

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coventrysucks
    Look at BAR; look at Toyota; etc.
    Look at the management leadership and failings in both those enterprises and it's failry obvious
    The risk is that the GP2/F1 teams will start yo-yo ing up and down with one season in F1, one in GP2, one in F1...
    You're still not thinking of it from a business processes POV.
    Anyone WANTING to get to F1 puts the plans in place to achieve it.
    THINK OF the football analogy again. A team PLANNING to win Div one AND STAY UP in Premier puts together a different team than one only wanting to win Div 1 !!
    The GP2 team makes it up, doesn't quite get it right, goes down, but are still good enough at Gp2 to come back the next year, but F1 has moved on a notch and they still can't get it right...
    Sorry, CS, you're doign AGAIN what I asked you not to do by thiknign wider.
    use an old technique taught to me..... before writing down the negatives that comes to mind write done the three POSITIVE things that come from it. Puts it all in context, avoids "bad-thinking" and has always led to better choices in my teams histories for sure
    They would need a dedicated team running the GP2 outfit, and another trying to keep abreast of F1 developments so that they could be competative.
    NO THEY DONT.
    They need a dedicated team in teh pit laen on race day for sure.
    Why do you think an aero designer can't be shared ?
    Or a materials engiener ? Or a mechanic ? or the vast majority of the 100+ it takes to win in any internationla formaul ??
    You are also making the mistake of thinking "old" F1. Remember this is a new F1 they are trying to build which is less abotu how much money you can spend in a 2 week period to make major changes/improvements. For sure this woudl NEVBER be possible in the old days when Ferrari woudl pour hundreds of millions in developing engine materials !! They dont' exist any more and shouldn't be used in any analysis
    Yes, Prodrive can be successful in WRC, GT and F1, but they are a massive operation with a huge budget.
    They didnt' start out that way, how do you think they got from small to BIG ?
    By being VERY WELL RUN, VERY PROFESSIONAL and maximising the cross-over off skills and technologies.
    How can you do this and make budgets less?
    Already said it over and over.
    By proper planning and execution.
    Please research the variosu teams running oeprations in nujerous formuals ALREADY.
    It's about re-using the investment in multiple ways.
    Happens all the time in racing, rallying and business.
    What about sponsors; the top corperate sponsors will not like being dropped down a peg, think of how the lower F1 teams are already struggling to get sponsors, and if they hear they might not be in F1, there will be even less.
    Look, I'm stopping until you actually spend some time on teh analogy and you could then actually answer EVERY point you've brought up to date.

    i'm not bothered repeating it time and again.

    Sorry, CS, too much time tried explaining it.
    When you post a reply answering all teh question syou've just raised then I'' rejoin.


    Also reading what Mosely is airing is worthwhile too.
    For instance his comments about sponsrs on the way done is interesting and true
    Also the acces teh "F1 funds" is a definite incentive to those in the feeder formula

    "Again that is right in a way but we also want proper competitive teams and you could see a system where, for the sake of argument, half the money came from Bernie, and if you were then promoted from GP2 then you have an instant 50m Euros or your 100, and then you got to hunt around and get the rest from sponsors.

    "But the fact you have been brilliantly successful in GP2 and you have been promoted means you have a chance.

    "Equally the people going down, they are probably starting to lose the sponsor money anyway.

    from itv-f1.com
    Last edited by Matra et Alpine; 02-15-2006 at 09:00 AM.
    "A woman without curves is like a road without bends, you might get to your destination quicker but the ride is boring as hell'

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