Why do you like Honda?

[Slicks]

wanna give some figures to back that up ??
until then im officially labeling ur posts as B/S

If I remember right, the F20 is about 325lbs, and as you know its making only 240hp. The NSX's V6 is around 420lbs for a more fair comparison.
While the 385lbs LS2 (dry) is making 400hp/400ft.lbs. (hell we can throw in the LS7, weighing the same yet making 505hp/470ft.lbs.

[Slicks]

except you CANT have power from 1000 rpm to 9000rpm
the whole point of vtec is you can have high lift long duration cams at the top end which would give horrible torque at the low end, and low lift no overlap cams for the low end which give regular amount of torque, i dont care what you say about the LS1, it CANT do that

That was just an example, to give an idea of what a usable powerband would be like. Would it not be better? (and by power I meant torque, being thats what moves the car)
I doubt it would be possible for that many RPMs, and your right, but you can have a flat torque curve, get the idea?

all of what you say is BS cuz as guilty as honda engines cant do what you claim, neither can your beloved LS1, just cuz ur LS1 has torque at low revs doesnt mean its better then the s2000s or wutever, ur forgetting ur nearly tripling the displacement, ofcourse it'd have more torque, now shut up before u hurt urself iwth your stupidity

Did you forget, Ive driven Hondas and LS1s, have you?

[Slicks]

Proof you do NOT understand what am analogy is for
Either you TRY to act that way or you rally are obtuse !!!!
Please let me know, will save hassle in teh future.

So to EXPLAIN it to you.
Once you've drive enough cars to know the difference between torque and power, revs and gears, damping and spring, turn-in, balance, weight, drive out and a million other things that vary with cars and setups you get to know the differences that setups and gross differences make.

Jsut as anyone who's used decent pens can tell abtou pens -- GET the analogy now ?

Yeah, I GOT the analogy, it just wasnt as good as it must have sounded in your head.

You've clearly NOT tried a number of different decent pens
Also, once you drive enough cars then it really CAN get as simple as pens.
Jsut because you dont' think their is a difference with limited experience dont' make the mistake of thinking that thte truth !!!!
With pens and cars

Whatever you say champ, there is no point in even trying to argue this with you anymore.

For sure, but THAT gets even harder to achieve because of the differing engineering that affects energy extraction in an ICE !!

Alright, glad that is cleared up. Can you see why Honda bumped the F20 to 2.2l for the US?

Do you READ what you write ?
All that says is you have a 6th gear to make YOU FEEL COMFORTABLE WITH THE REVS
( And to "cheat" the freeway cruise mpg measurement for publication )
We know by now that you cannot comprehend anyone driving a car using revs. But realise you are in the minority in the world !!

Did you read what I wrote?
5000RPMs in the S2000 = bumble bee nest under the hood.
Even if I were in 5th (top speed gear, over 162mph) Id still be under 2000RPMs, theres no "cheating." Hell Im more than happy I have a gas milage 6th gear, since I use top speeds of 150+ 0% of the time. So instead, I rather cruise at 70mph and get 27+mpg...
Theres a different in comprehending revs, and not liking peaky engines, try to remember that. Remeber, Ive drivin some Hondas/Acuras (and other high revving japanese cars).

See again I'm not convinced youy arent' mixing peaky and revvy again !!!!!
Gears can NEVER "fix" peaky, but there arent' any "peaky" engines out there any more ( away from teh race track ).
You have NOT driven a "peaky" Honda coz they dont' exists -- unless you've fallen foul of a ricer who's mismatched the filter and exhaust with the fuelling
You HAVE driven a "revvy" Honda and been afraid to use it throught the gears so dont' understand them properly.

I drove an early 90s Prelude Si, civics, and an early 90s integra, all of which were pretty peaky. And the S2000 is peaky.
You cant "fail to use the gears" when you start in 1st, and nothing happens until 6000RPMs... Another example of that I can think of was the 02(?) sheclipse I drove, I hammered the gas off a roll of about 5mph and I had to look down at the peddle to make sure I was on the right one. The engine didnt feel like it was running until about 3000RPMs.

[Matra et Alpine]

Alright, glad that is cleared up. Can you see why Honda bumped the F20 to 2.2l for the US?

If it's anythign liek waht has happened so many times in the past it's to make up for the crap fuel and the excessive emissions requriements restricting the engine
AS I said, I've hussled an S2000 round a track. Using it properly. You KEEP repeating abotu the revs so clearly you haven't "sriven" it, you may have sat behidn the wheel and pushed some pedals but that's not really the same, is it

Did you read what I wrote?
5000RPMs in the S2000 = bumble bee nest under the hood.

REad it and it's the same ccrap showign you dont' USE the revs of an engine.
AND YET you KLEEP complaining about it.
Realise it's your USAGE that sucks, not the car.

Even if I were in 5th (top speed gear, over 162mph) Id still be under 2000RPMs,

So drop a gear d'head
Really you are pathetic with this jsutification you attempt whilst at every stage proving your ignoranvce on USING an engien power via the gears and revs available.

theres no "cheating."

yes there is>
It's widely accepted that logn top gears are in to fit the way the measurements are made.
You should study more widely
BECAUSE the measurments dont' actually reflect real-world driveing.
The reason that Europe has developed a different measurement technique that more closely relfects REAL world usage ( and produces a lower mmp rating !! )

Hell Im more than happy I have a gas milage 6th gear, since I use top speeds of 150+ 0% of the time. So instead, I rather cruise at 70mph and get 27+mpg...

Not sure if you realise that the "highway consumption" you get varies LOTS from the published figures in real world use ????

Theres a different in comprehending revs, and not liking peaky engines, try to remember that. Remeber, Ive drivin some Hondas/Acuras (and other high revving japanese cars).

You'r mixign peaky and revvy in teh same sentence again>
CAN YOU PLEASE GET IT RIGHT.
Do you mean peaky or revvy ?
Also you KNOW we dont' beleive you ahve actually "driven" a Honda, you may well ahve been behidn the wheel and pushging the pedals but that block you have on revs we all guess measn you never actually unleash the tigher

I drove an early 90s Prelude Si, civics, and an early 90s integra, all of which were pretty peaky. And the S2000 is peaky.

CRAP.
The S2000 is NOT "peaky".
Neither were even early Civics.
You I suspect are again confusign peaky and revvy.
Go read a what a peaky engine is about. and then you'll grasp it.

You cant "fail to use the gears" when you start in 1st, and nothing happens until 6000RPMs... Another example of that I can think of was the 02(?) sheclipse I drove, I hammered the gas off a roll of about 5mph and I had to look down at the peddle to make sure I was on the right one. The engine didnt feel like it was running until about 3000RPMs.

Why is a MItsubishi in a Honda thread ?
Which model Eclipse ?
Didnt' you guys get a dumbed down poerformance out of the US factory adn STIL The AWD, so not enought power AND giving most of it away in AWD because that's what the market wanted ??
Besides, we're NOT debating arbitrary cars of arbitrary vintage otherewise I'll get on to the Camarao Z28 I drove in the US that was a JOKE in performance AND handling ???
Can you PLEASE get back to Hondas ??????

[h00t_h00t]

So I've not read this entire thread, but the pages I have read all contain the same arguments, time to lock perhaps?

[Matra et Alpine]

VTEC ! 15 years and 15 million engines sold

[Slicks]

If it's anythign liek waht has happened so many times in the past it's to make up for the crap fuel and the excessive emissions requriements restricting the engine

Try again, it was to make up for the lack of low end to mid range punch. Even owners compained about it...

AS I said, I've hussled an S2000 round a track. Using it properly. You KEEP repeating abotu the revs so clearly you haven't "sriven" it, you may have sat behidn the wheel and pushed some pedals but that's not really the same, is it

And as Ive said, track racing is not street driving.

REad it and it's the same ccrap showign you dont' USE the revs of an engine.
AND YET you KLEEP complaining about it.
Realise it's your USAGE that sucks, not the car.

Huh? That has nothing to do with what Im saying.

So drop a gear d'head
Really you are pathetic with this jsutification you attempt whilst at every stage proving your ignoranvce on USING an engien power via the gears and revs available.

Huh? Why would I want to drop down a gear? Im giving an example of how even when Im not in my super overdrive gear Im still at nice and low RPMs opposed to being at 5000, like the S2k. It was just an example chill.

yes there is>
It's widely accepted that logn top gears are in to fit the way the measurements are made.
You should study more widely
BECAUSE the measurments dont' actually reflect real-world driveing.
The reason that Europe has developed a different measurement technique that more closely relfects REAL world usage ( and produces a lower mmp rating !! )

Thats awful funny, because I get every bit of the claimed 27mpg highway driving if not BETTER. If you talk to any LS1 owner theyll tell you the same.
Europeans have a different system because they have different ROADS and drive differently. You know we have mainly strait, wide open roads to cruise.

Not sure if you realise that the "highway consumption" you get varies LOTS from the published figures in real world use ????

Not sure if you realise but the highway consumption doesnt consist of going 70mph. In the real world I usually do BETTER than claimed highway consumption as Ive aready said.

You'r mixign peaky and revvy in teh same sentence again>
CAN YOU PLEASE GET IT RIGHT.
Do you mean peaky or revvy ?
Also you KNOW we dont' beleive you ahve actually "driven" a Honda, you may well ahve been behidn the wheel and pushging the pedals but that block you have on revs we all guess measn you never actually unleash the tigher

CRAP.
The S2000 is NOT "peaky".
Neither were even early Civics.
You I suspect are again confusign peaky and revvy.
Go read a what a peaky engine is about. and then you'll grasp it.

Yes because you know me, I started out in 3rd gear and didnt rev right?
Already told you, used 1st gear as an example, didnt go utill VTAK PWER. Its like turbo lag without a turbo (or turbo kind of power).

Why is a MItsubishi in a Honda thread ?
Which model Eclipse ?
Didnt' you guys get a dumbed down poerformance out of the US factory adn STIL The AWD, so not enought power AND giving most of it away in AWD because that's what the market wanted ??
Besides, we're NOT debating arbitrary cars of arbitrary vintage otherewise I'll get on to the Camarao Z28 I drove in the US that was a JOKE in performance AND handling ???
Can you PLEASE get back to Hondas ??????

Heh, "OMG!#$@#$^!@ WHY DONT YOU READ!@#$!#!#!"
Do you know what an example is?
As stated it was the 02ish model (3rd gen) with a V6.

Please, tell me about this Z28.

[Matra et Alpine]

And as Ive said, track racing is not street driving.

Your confusion.
I use revs on teh street too .... so do every other owner I've encounetred --- well , OK, not the granny and flat-cap brigades

Huh? Why would I want to drop down a gear?

Coz that's hwo it's designed.
You don't liek to work when driving, fine then stick with YOUR preference.
But dont' try to turn that into a "rule" abotu revs

Thats awful funny, because I get every bit of the claimed 27mpg highway driving if not BETTER. If you talk to any LS1 owner theyll tell you the same.

Do you knwo HOW the agencies calculate these ?
Of COURSE you will manage to meet ( and often exceed ) published figures on some journeys.

Europeans have a different system because they have different ROADS and drive differently. You know we have mainly strait, wide open roads to cruise.

Go read how your EPA measure highway mileage.
It would enlighten you.
it's not that different from European motorway... multilane roads all over the world are amazingly similar -- it's OFF those we tend to see major differences
Anyway, the freeway/motorway miles are measuerd using CYCLES of different speeeds for different durations.
It's because traffic pattersn have changed over the years that Eureop is changing it's measurmenet method to better approximate real world.
Some of these cycles produce HIGHER mpg than the average and some lower. So unless REALLY bad driver then everyeon can exceed the published mpg on a journey if the conditions match those upper results.
BUT because the real world mix tended to have less fo the better results, then the Eureopan one is changing.
Ratherh than me have to take a dozen posts to explain it, go find it out yourself and save the arguemtns abtou opinion and lies you always put in my face when I present information to you

Not sure if you realise but the highway consumption doesnt consist of going 70mph. In the real world I usually do BETTER than claimed highway consumption as Ive aready said.

and we've FULLY explained THAT haven't we
I was amazed you only cited one figure. Did you realise the number is taken as an average over different and repeating cycles or did you think Europe only did one speed or just mistankelny ASSuming somethign different to waht was written -- You'll see i pu "highway consumption" deliberatley in quotes so that it was evident I meant teh "special" case that the bodies use !!

Yes because you know me, I started out in 3rd gear and didnt rev right?
Already told you, used 1st gear as an example, didnt go utill VTAK PWER. Its like turbo lag without a turbo (or turbo kind of power).

That's not really a differnce in peaky adn revvy
do you knwo it ??
eg turbo lag is somethign different altogether again.

Heh, "OMG!#$@#$^!@ WHY DONT YOU READ!@#$!#!#!"
Do you know what an example is?
As stated it was the 02ish model (3rd gen) with a V6.

yep an example is somethign REPRESENTATIVE.
What you cited was NOT a Honda -- so not an example
Was one case in a large field of "examples" and the one you cited possibly inst' representative of the majority. Bad case to pick "examples" from teh extreme ends of bell curves

Please, tell me about this Z28.

Thank you for confirming you dont' read.
This was pointed out to you in the "Engine 101 for SLick" thread many months back
Sorry I dont' want to waste any more time with you on this as you've proven AGAIN to not be worth it.
I guess in another 6 months time I might try to help you avoid confusing others with the BS, but this thread has ended. Go take it to the "Engine 101 for SLick" thread and stay out of here.

[Slicks]

Your confusion.
I use revs on teh street too .... so do every other owner I've encounetred --- well , OK, not the granny and flat-cap brigades

Apparently not everyone likes to drive at an ear molesting 5000rpms.

Coz that's hwo it's designed.
You don't liek to work when driving, fine then stick with YOUR preference.
But dont' try to turn that into a "rule" abotu revs

You again fail to even remotly understand what Im saying.
When im normally crusing on the highway at 70, what would I get out of switching down? Im not racing, so why waste the gas?

Do you knwo HOW the agencies calculate these ?
Of COURSE you will manage to meet ( and often exceed ) published figures on some journeys.

Its all a conspiracy, they're trying to hide the truth from us!

Go read how your EPA measure highway mileage.
It would enlighten you.
it's not that different from European motorway... multilane roads all over the world are amazingly similar -- it's OFF those we tend to see major differences
Anyway, the freeway/motorway miles are measuerd using CYCLES of different speeeds for different durations.
It's because traffic pattersn have changed over the years that Eureop is changing it's measurmenet method to better approximate real world.
Some of these cycles produce HIGHER mpg than the average and some lower. So unless REALLY bad driver then everyeon can exceed the published mpg on a journey if the conditions match those upper results.
BUT because the real world mix tended to have less fo the better results, then the Eureopan one is changing.
Ratherh than me have to take a dozen posts to explain it, go find it out yourself and save the arguemtns abtou opinion and lies you always put in my face when I present information to you

Yeah Ive read it before, its pretty basic. Highway 50mph, slow down a few times, speed up to like 60 bla bla bla. Real world highway driving for me usually consists of a constant 50-70mph cruise (depending on the speed limit). Im not out around rush hour, so I rarly have to worry about heavy traffic.

and we've FULLY explained THAT haven't we
I was amazed you only cited one figure. Did you realise the number is taken as an average over different and repeating cycles or did you think Europe only did one speed or just mistankelny ASSuming somethign different to waht was written -- You'll see i pu "highway consumption" deliberatley in quotes so that it was evident I meant teh "special" case that the bodies use !!

Refer to above.

That's not really a differnce in peaky adn revvy
do you knwo it ??
eg turbo lag is somethign different altogether again.

It FELT like turbo lag, the car didnt friggen go, then the VVT goes to high lift, and you get some pep.
This is like the 10th time we've been circling this same argument. Peaky = doesnt move until high RPMs.

yep an example is somethign REPRESENTATIVE.
What you cited was NOT a Honda -- so not an example
Was one case in a large field of "examples" and the one you cited possibly inst' representative of the majority. Bad case to pick "examples" from teh extreme ends of bell curves

It represented a peaky engine, not too hard to figure that one out.

Thank you for confirming you dont' read.
This was pointed out to you in the "Engine 101 for SLick" thread many months back
Sorry I dont' want to waste any more time with you on this as you've proven AGAIN to not be worth it.
I guess in another 6 months time I might try to help you avoid confusing others with the BS, but this thread has ended. Go take it to the "Engine 101 for SLick" thread and stay out of here.

No, I actually wanted to hear your thoughts on the Z28, I dont ever remember you mentioning what you thought of it.

[KnifeEdge_2K1]

[QUOTE=Slicks]That was just an example, to give an idea of what a usable powerband would be like. Would it not be better? (and by power I meant torque, being thats what moves the car)
I doubt it would be possible for that many RPMs, and your right, but you can have a flat torque curve, get the idea?

QUOTE]

You're right in that respects, it would be better to have a flat torque curve giving usable power at all rpms ... if you only had one cam profile, if you had 2, you can tune each cam to be "best" in their respective operational ranges, this may give an engine with a rediculously high rpm value at peak torque, but as i was saying, compare the s2000 with a similarly sized n/a engine without vtec or some other form of variable valve timing, you'll see that the vtec engine is superior in every way. lets use ur ls1 for example, it has flat torque curve bla bla bla, now lets add vtec onto it allowing it to higher low rpm torque and higher power at the top of the rev range with out any disadvantages, would this be worse then the original cuz it's "peaky" ??

as for your driving both ls1 and honda or wutever, like you said that's not the point, we're not comparing cars here, we're comparing engines

this is the last time im gonna bring this up, vtec gives gains throughout the rev band with next to no costs, until you properly address this issue and provide a valid counter argument, im just gonna ignore u as there's no way of convincing u of ur error

[john14]

Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine
Reliable
Top class engineering
Value for money
a bit "boring"

Matra, I must agree, Honda are a great car manufacturer but... Overall, Honda cars are a bit boring. However, Honda has manufactured many interesting and beautiful cars, such as the Honda NSX and the Honda S2000. Also, some Honda's have great character and charm.

[sunk]

Look, most of us are going to drive at 3000rpm-4000rpm on public roads. Whats the point of having a sports car that behaves like a normal econobox at that limit?
Woudn't you like to have some more 'juice' at that range?

[clutch-monkey]

if i had more juice at that range i'd lose my license i actually prefer less grunt down low when driving daily

[henk4]

Look, most of us are going to drive at 3000rpm-4000rpm on public roads. Whats the point of having a sports car that behaves like a normal econobox at that limit?
Woudn't you like to have some more 'juice' at that range?

of course but one of the charming aspects of a sportscar is that it has a very nice gearbox, which can turn the "just rolling along" into something more exciting.

(NB: I hardly rev over 2000 when accelarating, with max torque setting in at 1700 there is no need to. and 3000 rpm corresponds to 145 kph in top gear )

[Matra et Alpine]

This is like the 10th time we've been circling this same argument. Peaky = doesnt move until high RPMs.

We've been around it 10 times ONLY because this is the first time you've actually described what you think it is.
PEAKY is NOT power until high revs.
WRONG.
Peaky is exactly what it describes where the power curve a very strong peak ( or even more peaks in a VERY highly tuned engine )
It all comes back from OLD DAYS when fueling , valve lift valve bounce and manifold pressures were not as well understood and the engines didnt' have ECUs. So you would find points when the engine was "off cam" ( ie the low end timing was off - the most usual ) or the fuel/air mixture was not right, or flow had a stall point.
So I could have a "peaky" engine that only revved to 5000 or an engine that had good power until harmonic on valve springing caused bounce, but get past it and you had another 1000 revs. These are all things we've dialled out in the main through better component materials, multi-valve, fuel injection and engine management units.
The main one was always being "off cam" when the timing meant it didn't sing until higher revs - a very common problem when tuning pushrods. So natural you'd ONLY see that, but that's not all that "peaky" means.

It represented a peaky engine, not too hard to figure that one out.

Well it actually sounded like an underpowered engine frankly.
A common problem with cars designed for elsewhere and then made "emission friendly" for the US. Shame you use that problem as a reason for bad engine

No, I actually wanted to hear your thoughts on the Z28, I dont ever remember you mentioning what you thought of it.

That's exoected
It was nothing special.
IT didn't thave the pull of a Jaguar straight six and the handling was frightening.
Once it was up to 60mph it started to go light and the steering wander was terrifiying by the time it got out to 80. So much so you HAD to back off.
Looked good ( for it's day )