RWD outdated?

[Matra et Alpine]

And thanks for the compliment Matra. I should have added I was strictly talking in terms of tarmac roads. .

Missed I said "twisties".

Top Gear track -- one of the first outings - had the Stig do a Scoobie, a Focus RS and a Honda Civic Type-R. ( same day, same track, same driver )

hate to break your fantasy .... the Scoob came last

[spi-ti-tout]

now I haven't been reading this thread so forgive me btu uncle matra, what you're basically saying is that on a twisty track, the exact same car (take the example of a Corolla), FWD vs RWD vs AWD,

1st - RWD
2nd - AWD
3rd - FWD

?

[Matra et Alpine]

Wrong way round spi

[SlickHolden]

You know what would be the perfect test,
AWD HSV Coupe 4 LS1 270kw. Vs RWD HSV GTO LS1 285kw.

An AWD car will usually post faster lap times than a RWD car of similar spec. AWD is better for max performance than RWD.

Also, America rules all.

Is that why your begging Australia for RWD cars

[KnifeEdge_2K1]

matra why would a fwd be better in twisties compared to rwd and awd ??

can u go a bit detailed cuz im like completely not getting u right now

[Matra et Alpine]

matra why would a fwd be better in twisties compared to rwd and awd ??

can u go a bit detailed cuz im like completely not getting u right now

FWD can carry more speed into a corner and scrub it off during the corner.
on those corners a RWD HAS to brake more before turn in or it will all go oversteer and waste LOTS of time.
( Just to touch on the basics, once a car is oversteering it is going SLOWER than it might otherwise achieve -- only Hollywood makes cars on power slides go faster )
FWD can afford to put the power on earlier too as power induced understeer on exit is used to advantage ( letting it drift to the outside ), whereas on tight corners oversteer is again unwanted beyond that first movement the driver may want to induce.
FWD tends to have a shorter wheelbase making all this a larger positive.
( again touching on basics, short wheelbase RWD has handling problems at speed as it's pushing causing the car to step out occasioannly on bumps/undulation etc )

Of course put a sweeper or a length of straight and the RWD wins it all back again

It's why you'll see I always add "depends on track or road" whenever anyone says X is faster than Y.

With modern rubber and better suspension dynamics the benefit in twisties gets less every year.

I've yet to test drive a new DAX with it's roll controlled neutral camber suspension design -- I'm expecting that to be the one that removes the last final gap ... but that's for another discussion after I've test driven it.

Over AWD both win in dry tarmac conditions because the extra weight of the AWD brings no real benefit and needs the driver to brake earlier and gives less acceleration on exit ( all other things being equal )

[spi-ti-tout]

Wrong way round spi

hmn

1st - FWD
2nd - AWD
3rd - RWD

?

[spi-ti-tout]

Over AWD both win in dry tarmac conditions because the extra weight of the AWD brings no real benefit and needs the driver to brake earlier and gives less acceleration on exit ( all other things being equal )

ok, I'm guessing you didn't see the TG Carerra vs Carerra 4 round that Welsh rugby stadium?

[Matra et Alpine]

ok, I'm guessing you didn't see the TG Carerra vs Carerra 4 round that Welsh rugby stadium?

No. But went looking....

1 min 12 sec for the Carrera 2, and 1min 11.5 for the Carrera 4 on the Millenium Stadium Stage of Rally GB.
That's an irrelevant difference

looking on wrc.com for the same stage .....

- Mark Higgins beats The Stig by 7.7 sec in a Focus WRC (over 10% quicker)
- Petter Solberg beats The Stig by 6.5 sec in his WRC Impreza
- Dave Higgins beats The Stig by 2.2 sec in a Group N Mitsi Evo
- Various Grp N Scoobies also kick its ass (it's only a short stage). Obviously Imprezas *really are* good in The Twisties (tm), lol.
- Even Guy Wilks in a 1600 2wd Swift beats the Carrera 4 by nearly 2 sec

NOTE THE LAST
Lots less power than a 911 and FWD beat it



What was the circuit makeup ? All tarmac or mixed surface ??

[Kooper]

Hi again all, haven't been here for a while (been WAAAY too long!), but I'm back and want to join in again.

Matra, I hear what you're saying, but consider this:

Between a Scoobie, Focus RS and a Civic Type R, none are RWD. Might prove that the Scoobie, even in AWD guise, isn't faster than the other two cars if driven by the Stig, but that's just about it.
Also, and I know you already know this, though I feel it necessary to point out nonetheless, TopGear isn't the be-all end-all of Automotive stuff. The rally facts you've provided are darn interesting though - thanks.

As far as the RWD vs. FWD around twisties argument goes, once again I point out that a FWD car changes direction more difficult than a RWD car would based on what I believe are fundamental physics (consider it kooper-physics ), depending on the makes and models of course. A RWD car doesn't necessarily induce oversteer around a corner. Both configurations require that you brake before you actually turn into a corner - considered a racing basic -. The brave and fools dare try different. I salute the brave who dare and pull it off though!

But anyways:
Go too fast (as in too fast and you know it) into a corner with a FWD car and I don't care how much speed you scrub off, with virtually guaranteed understeer you're heading off the road...
With RWD you still stand a change since you've got optional oversteer (again depending on the make and model), leaving the nose pointing in the right direction ie. into the direction the turn is taking vs. no-man's-land in the FWD car.
I agree, too short a wheelbase isn't a wanted thing on RWD cars, that's why on the good RWD cars, the wheelbase is usually a good portion longer than on comparible FWD cars. Shorter wheelbases may mean nippier dynamics on FWD cars (also in RWD configurations, but to a lesser extent), but I personally think when compared, even with a longer wheelbase the RWD car still has the FWD beat in terms of cornering ability.

I won't be fair if I didn't mention that these days, even RWD cars have understeer built-in. This is a requisite for modern production cars, simply because understeer is perceived as generally easier to handle for the everyday man living in his 3 bedroom house, seemingly making it the "safer" option. Whether manufacturers should've taken this route is another matter worth discussing, as I believe that if the everyday man was made aware of the safety benefits of RWD-induced optional oversteer and the occassional inevitible oversteer, AND tought how to control it by means of making it a standard part of getting a normal driving license, I believe public roads would've been a safer place instead of today's roads congested with understeer-prone cars. But like I say, that's a personal perspective to be discussed on a different day.

The 911 coming last in comparison to the cars you mentioned, sorry, but again I respectfully have to say that it still does not prove a thing. A 911 is RWD yes, but it's also rear-engined. That's oversteer-deluxe-with-extra -large-fries-on-the-side country... Oversteer is a given whether you want it or not. Today's 911s are an engineering marvel though, as Porsche has tamed the car to a large extent, though this is irrelevant for what I'm trying to say, just thought I'd share some of my admiration for the car .

My personal belief? If there was such a thing as a rear-engined FWD car, a 911 would kick the FWD car's behind so hard it's engine would return to the front...

Now don't get me wrong, what you say is valid in some maybe even many cases, depending on a lot of factors. Fact is that there is no single make of car in FWD, RWD and AWD configurations. At least not as far as I know.

Until a car can be tested with the same wheelbase, same engine location, same suspension, same tyres, same everything except diffent driven wheels configurations, we'll keep seeing people debating over which is better.

I still stick to believing that for tarred roads, RWD is the way to go.


And I agree, on tarred roads FWD may well end up beating AWD cars every now and then, maybe even more now than then. But I said as soon as the roads are not tarred, AWD is probably the best option.


Matra, I have to ask, do you know of an AWD car once campaigned in F1? If you do, you wouldn't happen to have some info on it? And if the answer is again yes, can I bribe you (or someone else) to post some info of it if you or anyone else haven't done so already? I've looked everywhere but couldn't find much.


EDIT: After reading this I realized that a good portion of what I siad boiled down to an oversteer vs. understeer argument, which wasn't the intention!

Anyways, I've added some or other form of debate so I guess it's OK.

[pAinTrAin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31hA8...rch=top%20gear

All you need is a good wing