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Thread: RWD outdated?

  1. #61
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    no, What, on msot tracks a mid-engine/RWD will beat an AWD unless it's wet or dusty.
    "A woman without curves is like a road without bends, you might get to your destination quicker but the ride is boring as hell'

  2. #62
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    I think the problems lies in the feel and knowing what you're doing while driving your car as McReis has pointed out. When owning a car and in everyday driving it doesn't matter which car is faster around the track, all it matters is how you fell with the car. I've driving a moderately powerful front driven car and everything I have come known about it is that I've got the opportunity I'd like to drvie a rear driven car next time I've got to buy a new car. I'd even trade power for steering feel. I want to feel the steering uncorrupted by the engine's power.
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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine
    no, What, on most tracks a mid-engine/RWD will beat an AWD unless it's wet or dusty.
    The AWD Lamborghini Gallardo is heavier and just as powerful as the RWD Ferrari F430...BUT...the Gallardo regularly posts faster lap times than Ferrari F430.

    The AWD Murcielago lapped the Nurburgring faster than the RWD Pagani Zonda S.

    The Infiniti G35 (skyline) is faster in AWD form (G35x).


    AWD gives an advantage. It's obvious.

  4. #64
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    Are internal combustion engines that run on fossil fuels outdated?

    RWD with intellegent electro-magnetic LSD or just regular LSD- if applied proper- can be just nearly as efficent as AWD in applying large power grip to the wheels. i thinks
    F1 cars don't have so much of that problem.
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  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by -What-
    The AWD Lamborghini Gallardo is heavier and just as powerful as the RWD Ferrari F430...BUT...the Gallardo regularly posts faster lap times than Ferrari F430.

    The AWD Murcielago lapped the Nurburgring faster than the RWD Pagani Zonda S.

    The Infiniti G35 (skyline) is faster in AWD form (G35x).


    AWD gives an advantage. It's obvious.
    they're different cars man
    the fact it's awd doesnt mean that it's the sole difference between the two cars

    awd adds quite alot of weight which is always detrimental to performance, it's unsprung weight too, which makes it even worse, a properly set up rwd car will always be better then a similarly speced awd, also you cant use the throttle to change slip angle in awd car (except for some cases) which makes control of the car alot harder

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnifeEdge_2K1
    they're different cars man
    the fact it's awd doesnt mean that it's the sole difference between the two cars
    The SOLE difference between the G35 and G35x is the AWD system. The G35x was faster around a track. Explain yourself.

    The F430 is considered to be better balanced and better engineered than the Gallardo...BUT the Gallardo manages to be consistently faster around a track despite having a poorer weight ratio. AWD is what makes the Gallardo faster than the F430.

    F1 racing doesn't use AWD because it isn't allowed. If it AWD was allowed F1 cars would post faster lap times.

    And also, I repeat...
    The SOLE difference between the G35 and G35x is the AWD system. The G35x was faster around a track. Explain yourself.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by -What-

    The F430 is considered to be better balanced and better engineered than the Gallardo...BUT the Gallardo manages to be consistently faster around a track despite having a poorer weight ratio. AWD is what makes the Gallardo faster than the F430.

    F1 racing doesn't use AWD because it isn't allowed. If it AWD was allowed F1 cars would post faster lap times.
    The Gallardo isn't faster around the track then a F430. (Check the top gear power laps, for example)
    And my point was that you can get large power grip down with RWD. And AWD wouldn't necessary have faster times, they would probably be faster of the line though.
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  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnifeEdge_2K1
    they're different cars man
    the fact it's awd doesnt mean that it's the sole difference between the two cars

    awd adds quite alot of weight which is always detrimental to performance, it's unsprung weight too, which makes it even worse, a properly set up rwd car will always be better then a similarly speced awd, also you cant use the throttle to change slip angle in awd car (except for some cases) which makes control of the car alot harder
    In principle i agree, but there are still examples of AWD's beating RWD's with very similar specs. Ive infact seen a less powerful, heavier AWD post better times than a lighter, more powerful RWD.
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  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by -What-
    An AWD car will usually post faster lap times than a RWD car of similar spec. AWD is better for max performance than RWD.

    Also, America rules all.
    better for max performance? I have yet to see Formula 1 being AWD or supercars because of "max performance."

    and America I am sorry to tell you is in many ways retarded but I'm not leaving.
    Real cars are not FWD.
    FWD at it's best -
    http://videos.streetfire.net/video/6FBCAADF-B7CB-432C-B938-01EB06BD83CE.htm

  10. #70
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    AWD gives you more traction at the expense of horsepower. That's the whole point. There is a lot of energy lost in driving those extra two wheels, so economy, efficiency and grunt is sacrificed for grip. If it were possible and you were to put exactly the same engine in exactly the same bodyshell so the only difference was the drive train then the RWD would turn in faster lap times. Why? Because it would corner just as well as the AWD in most conditions, would be lighter, faster and transfer power to the track more efficiently. Which is why Matra is 100% right in his post at the top of this page.
    Last edited by greg.harvey; 05-26-2006 at 02:22 AM.
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  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by -What-
    F1 racing doesn't use AWD because it isn't allowed. If it AWD was allowed F1 cars would post faster lap times.
    erm WHEN AWD was allowed in F1 it was slower ... the only time it actually presented ANY value was at a rain-drenched Zandvoort
    And also, I repeat...
    The SOLE difference between the G35 and G35x is the AWD system. The G35x was faster around a track. Explain yourself.
    the G35x runs a clever computer-controlled split.
    BUT it carries an extra 300lbs to deliver that.
    What "track" is it faster ? I tried a google to confirm your input but can't find any The only mention I found was an R&T article where the "track" was a "straight, rain-slick tile surface at their Arizona proving grounds"
    That's not a "track" in the real sense of the word
    Do you have other track times ? Would be interested to see.
    "A woman without curves is like a road without bends, you might get to your destination quicker but the ride is boring as hell'

  12. #72
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    Again, I suggest referencing the BMW 330i vs. a 330xi (if a new model exists). Would be interesting to see an article about the pros and cons of each. I predict the 330i would come out as the favourite.

    Anyways, I guess the whole RWD vs. AWD vs. FWD debate is like having a Blonde, Brunette or Redhead conversation: Each has their favourite, and trying to convert them to your preference would be like trying to convince a Russian that Whiskey is better than Vodka. Next to impossible in other words.

    I'm a RWD guy, why? I like the way it feels, I like the fact (depending on the car) that you can stick the tail out around a bend should you feel like it, I like the fact that you can smoke up the rear-tyres when you feel like it (smoking the front tyres just looks insanely stupid in my opinion) and I like it that the front tyres' main concern on a RWD car is to change the direction of travel.

    In many ways, a FWD car to me is the same as suddenly deciding that you no longer will be walking with your legs but employ your arms as the primary means of getting around (just seems silly). AWD makes more sense, as most animals with a spine and not belonging to Homo Sapiens Erectus use all fours, but then again I'm bi-pedal, so RWD will do just fine thanks.

    It may seem like silly reasons to you, but I've been a carnut for as long as I can remember and up until I was 9 I thought all cars were powered by their rear-wheels. I was horrified that some cars were actually FWD. The reasoning above was probably formed in my youthful mind shortly after learning the horrible facts.

    A few more solid reasons would be that two of the most important factors of performance is a low unsprung mass. Another would be good weight distribution. The latter I think is next to impossible in FWD, while the former is just as unlikely in AWD. RWD makes both easy, since there's no need for equipement up front to drive the wheels, only at the back, therefore decreasing unsprung mass. The heavy stuff can also be smartly positioned around the whole of the car, preferebly between the front- and rear- wheels' wheelbase lines.

    Try holding something really heavy in both your hands. While holding the object with straight arms pointing downwards, spin yourself around as fast as you can, then try to stop as fast as you can. Now do the same exercise with your arms extended forward, arms still as straight as possible. Feel the difference? THAT's a huge RWD advantage.

    Most FWD (if not all) cars have their engines in front off their front wheels' centerline (arms extended forward), making changing the nose's direction of travel that much more difficult. Great for family runabouts since more space is freed up at the back meaning bigger boots and more back-seat space, lousy for performance.

    Now for unladen weight. The wheels' upward and downward travel are controlled by springs. More weight = less response. It's a simple theory.

    Extend your arm forward, straight as possible. Swing it up and down. Pretty easy right? Try the same thing while holding something hefty. Feel the difference? Not a totally accurate comparison, but it brings the effect across effectively enough.

    Now some might say "but the rear wheel drivetrain at the back are heavier than in FWD cars!". True. But it's also lighter where it matters most: The section where changing direction takes place first. And with all the important and heavy stuff located in between the front and rear wheel centerlines, the foundation for a good performance car has already been established ...before we're talking any other factors.

    Now, there is one disadvantage in RWD cars, at least as far as front-engine, RWD cars are concerned. Loss of power between the source of power (the engine) and the driven wheels. You'll find more power being transmitted at the front wheels than the back wheels if a car existed with the exact same engine in FWD and RWD configurations. The difference however is not as big as to negatively affect the RWD car's already sizeable advantage. Besides, if the car was mid-engined, the FWD car's advantage dissappears completely. Packaging suffers of course (as far as grocery and passenger space goes).

    At the end then, as far as roadcars go, for me a front mid-engined, RWD car I think gives the best of all worlds. In the real world that is.

    In the performace world, I think the answer is obvious: Mid-engined, RWD.


    And that's all I wrote.

  13. #73
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    nice write-up Koooper reflecting your experience and "bias" ...

    Dirty roads, twisties and FWD actually wins over RWD in most cases ( there are soem VERY short wheelbase RWDs but they then get very fidgety at high speeds ont eh straight )

    It's biggest disadvantage comes when traction is difficult as pushing is all the wrong way to do it then ... to carry your earlier analogy it's like trying to climb a rock face. FWD gives you control but limited power, RWD gives you lots of power to move up BUT liekly to push you off the cliff-wall. AWD gets you both
    "A woman without curves is like a road without bends, you might get to your destination quicker but the ride is boring as hell'

  14. #74
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    Ah crap, sorry everybody, didn't think my first post went though!


    And thanks for the compliment Matra. I should have added I was strictly talking in terms of tarmac roads. Dirt roads I agree, AWD ATW (all the way) .
    Last edited by Kooper; 05-27-2006 at 01:09 PM.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kooper
    Dirt roads I agree, AWD ATW (all the way) .
    Yup, Audi could explain this...
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