why do people who dont like vtec ... dont like vtec?

[KnifeEdge_2K1]

Would those 4 cylinders happen to be turbocharged or from the same year as the V6 or V8?

Smaller dispalcement does NOT mean smaller engine! For god sakes! Ill use this comparison AGAIN. The Northstar is 4.4L, while the LS7 is 7L, and you guessed it, the LS7 is SMALLER, and LIGHTER.
HP/L is still irrelivent when it comes to comparisons, thats what Im getting at.

No, weight and gearing is why, not displacement.

Well for starters, OHV engines are now comming out with VVT. There are also kits for OHC concersions. And as I said before X amount of power is X amount of power, no matter where its coming from. And if a small block V8 is going to be cheaper, more powerful, have much greater potential, and be barley larger and heavier than a peaky 4cylinder than the answer should be clear.

not turbocharged, and from the same era
the effect from engine config is mainly in that of smoothness, an v8 of the same displacement does not have any more potential then an I4 of the same size, true, the v8 could probably rev a little bit more then the I4 considering the shorter conrods and smaller pistons but when talking about engines in the 2L and below bracket this difference is negligible

yes smaller displacement DOES equal smaller engine when all others are equal, obviously there would be one or two rare cases which dont follow the rule but in general a 2L engine is smaller then a 4L engine

and i already proved why Hp/L IS important in comparisons, if you intend on doing any sort of racing, be it on the track, autocross, engine size usually dictates what class you're in, and id rather be 240hp in the 2L class then 240HP in the 3L class

there may be kits for those conversions im not saying there arnt any. but do you think any of them has had millions of dollars poured into it's development like honda's ?? why do a conversion which takes lots of time and money when you can get the same equipment strait from the factory ?? just because honda's engines are usually small doesnt mean the technology cant be applied to a larger engine

[PerfAdv]

I remember reading an article some time ago where Ferrari engineers were giving reasons for why they chose to stay away from a variable valve/timing system, like the then unique VTEC. Mostly it was about subjectives, they were saying that the VTEC engines power delivery never feels as powerful when the revs increase as with an engine without VTEC. I think the reasoning was that since you've already built up a some low-end torque the power increase with increased revs seems less. What they wanted instead was a much more linear and peaking power curve. Also, Ferrari engine while no torque monsters still have larger displacements than the smallest torque-less offerings from Honda, so don't really need to boost low-end torque with VTEC. Instead, there engines will endure the low revs but come to life with high revs...

[clutch-monkey]

The next NSX reportedly has a V-10. How big that engine will be, I don't know. Just wait a couple years and you'll find out.

Honda is a company that is more biased towards family cars than sports cars, so the V-8 is definately out of the question. I wish they did make more sports cars though. If the V-10 is true, than it'll do fine for me.

yeah, but.... i want a honda V8

[Slicks]

not turbocharged, and from the same era
the effect from engine config is mainly in that of smoothness, an v8 of the same displacement does not have any more potential then an I4 of the same size, true, the v8 could probably rev a little bit more then the I4 considering the shorter conrods and smaller pistons but when talking about engines in the 2L and below bracket this difference is negligible

Care to tell me what 4 cylinders your talking about then?

yes smaller displacement DOES equal smaller engine when all others are equal, obviously there would be one or two rare cases which dont follow the rule but in general a 2L engine is smaller then a 4L engine

You never said that before, did you?
Either way its still wrong, take a engine and bore/stroke it out, the engine is the same size, but greater displacement.

and i already proved why Hp/L IS important in comparisons, if you intend on doing any sort of racing, be it on the track, autocross, engine size usually dictates what class you're in, and id rather be 240hp in the 2L class then 240HP in the 3L class

When comparing engines its irrelivant, this has been discussed so many times, end of story.

there may be kits for those conversions im not saying there arnt any. but do you think any of them has had millions of dollars poured into it's development like honda's ?? why do a conversion which takes lots of time and money when you can get the same equipment strait from the factory ?? just because honda's engines are usually small doesnt mean the technology cant be applied to a larger engine

Why mod a little 4 banger which takes lots of time and money, and really gets you no where when you can buy a more powerful, less expencive V8 from the factory?

[h00t_h00t]

This could have been a good thread. I think V8s are great too, but attacking hondas at every oppertunity is just plain ignorant. This is especially true when you quote parts of a post then reply to it without understanding what has been written.

[KnifeEdge_2K1]

I remember reading an article some time ago where Ferrari engineers were giving reasons for why they chose to stay away from a variable valve/timing system, like the then unique VTEC. Mostly it was about subjectives, they were saying that the VTEC engines power delivery never feels as powerful when the revs increase as with an engine without VTEC. I think the reasoning was that since you've already built up a some low-end torque the power increase with increased revs seems less. What they wanted instead was a much more linear and peaking power curve. Also, Ferrari engine while no torque monsters still have larger displacements than the smallest torque-less offerings from Honda, so don't really need to boost low-end torque with VTEC. Instead, there engines will endure the low revs but come to life with high revs...

but even they have adopted variable valve timing systems now with one of the more clever aproaches, making a 3D profile cam which is actuated by hydraulics on the ends making a near continuously variable cam changing system, very good indeed

but as it's only available on ferraris which are out of reach of 99% of the people on this ball we call earth, i'd still have to say vtec is the best system, combining all the properties of what a good variable valve timing and cam changing system should have, at a low price

[KnifeEdge_2K1]

Care to tell me what 4 cylinders your talking about then?

You never said that before, did you?
Either way its still wrong, take a engine and bore/stroke it out, the engine is the same size, but greater displacement.

When comparing engines its irrelivant, this has been discussed so many times, end of story.

Why mod a little 4 banger which takes lots of time and money, and really gets you no where when you can buy a more powerful, less expencive V8 from the factory?

but there's a limit to how far you can bore it out, and boring (ok i cant spell it) makes the side walls thinner, and hence takes it closer to the limit at which it's still safe, and hurts reliability, a stock engine is designed with all these parameters in to account

if you were to design an engine from scratch, a 2L engine is going to be smaller then a 3L one given similar constraints on materials, costs, bla bla bla
that's my point, you cant compare engines from different manufacturers which were intended for hugely different purposes and were made with vastly different budgets

given no other information would you say a 3L engine is smaller/lighter then a 2L one ?? ofcourse not

it isnt the end of the story just because you say it is
you're right in that a 200 hp is 200hp regardless of whether it came from a 2L or 4L, or petrol or diesal, but the point is a 200hp 2L will be compared to cars in the 2L class, a 200hp 4L will be compared to cars in the 4L class
if you compare the 200hp 4L to the 200hp 2L which would you say is better? the 4L cuz it has more displacement and thus more potential ?? i sure as hell wouldnt, it'd be a piece of shit compared to other 4 litre engines available, and the 200hp 2L is already so refined i wouldnt have to do much to it

if ultimate power was all that mattered, you'd see the v10 from the viper in every car in dodges line, and all manufacturers would fit the biggest engine possible into every car's engine bay, what you're proposing is retarded

so you would rather pay the same amount of money for a piece of shit engine that you have to work on for it to be good ... as opposed to a small engine which costs just a bit more and has had hundreds of engineers work on it, making it better then you could ever possibly do on your own ... youve got issues mate ...

[KnifeEdge_2K1]

This could have been a good thread. I think V8s are great too, but attacking hondas at every oppertunity is just plain ignorant. This is especially true when you quote parts of a post then reply to it without understanding what has been written.

thanks ^^ ... i think

[NSXType-R]

yeah, but.... i want a honda V8

Yeah, I could imagine 2 S2000 engines sharing the same crankshaft ( with some extra engineering of course). Stick that in a new mid-engined all aluminum sports car and PRESTO! You have your new NSX! Give it some new styling and it's perfect! (Obviously a Type R version has to come later on and be available to the US as well. ) It would have potential for decent power.

Considering that Honda is a company based on it's R and D, I wouldn't be surprised that it's VTEC system is among the best systems created. Not only did Honda focus on cars they focused on many other products as well, such as ASIMO, bikes, and even jets.

I really wished Honda could focus more on sports cars. They're quite profitable, so I don't see why they shouldn't be a bit more aggressive and expand their model lineup a bit more.

[2ndclasscitizen]

who cares what the reasoning is, we just want to know which one's better, and as of yet no one has given any proof to refute my claim of honda's being one of the best on the market, if not THE best considering toyota only has their vvtl-i engine in the corolla xrs and porsche's cars are way out of reach by most people

You never asked which one was better, just for people who dislike the VTEC system to explain their reasoning.

Technically, I'd go for Ferrari's system. VVTL is good, but is let down by the gearing in the Toyotas that have it. So if you include price into it, then yes, VTEC is best. Honda's choice to introduce it across their entire ranges early has worked out for them due to economies of scale.

[Gtek-i]

So...who DOESN'T like VTEC? Anyone? Well...I guess Honda is just too good!

[Wouter Melissen]

and i already proved why Hp/L IS important in comparisons, if you intend on doing any sort of racing, be it on the track, autocross, engine size usually dictates what class you're in, and id rather be 240hp in the 2L class then 240HP in the 3L class

In what twisted world are cars compared by displacement? Only a small fraction of cars are ever raced! Following this logic a Toyota Corolla is in the same class as a Lotus Elise. Furthermore horsepower is a rather irrelevant statistic. As stated many times before, horsepower sells cars, but it's torque that wins races. I much rather have a car with a 3 litre 240 hp engine, which most likely has a broad powerband then a 2 litre 240 bhp, which has impressive peak performance, but is not driveable at all. Formula 1 engines have very impressive horsepower figures, but I'd rather have a LS7 in my daily driver.

[hightower99]

Its interesting then, that Honda has claimed higher hp/l figures than either the E46 M3 or latest M5

HP/L is totally irrelevant what is relevant is that BMW's M5 is powered by a 5L V10 that redlines at 8250rpm and produces 500hp (and it has won 4 international engine of the year awards). Also the best engine BMW has is the new N52 series Inline 6 engines that have Valvetronic and Double VANOS. This engine series is very young and as it progresses it will prove to be BMW's most powerfull I6.

you're kidding right ?? bmw's system is one of the worst on the market
double vanos does nothing except phase the timing of cams, and valvetronic has a complicated gearing system to actuate the valves, which becomes horribly inefficient at high rpms (which is where variable valve timing nets the most gains)

I doubt you knowledge on the subject for a few reasons but one of them is you referring to the valvetronic system as having "a complicated gearing system" because it only has 2 gears and they are not complex at all. Double VANOS happens to have the widest range of adjustment (60deg) and the fastest reaction time (roughly a 1/4 of VTEC's cam phasing part) and the most points making it the most smooth (roughly 50 times more points than VTEC's cam phasing part) cam phasing system to date. Next Valvetronic is the only system in production that allows a gas fuelled engine to run without throttle valves. The response is faster and smoother than ITB systems. It constantly and smoothly variates valve lift optimising it for any rpm and pedal position. Now it is a very young system and when it first came out it struggled to hold on at 6000rpm. Now only a few years after it's release it is totally reliable up to 7200rpm and a test engine can hit 8000rpm without breaking. In a few years you will see valvetronic systems capable of sustained 9000rpm operation. I have looked at most of the systems available on cars today and BMW's comes out on top as the best.

To stress the point of BMW's sytem being the best ask yourself this question...

Which company has won the most "International engine of the year" awards

Answer: BMW...

[hightower99]

In what twisted world are cars compared by displacement? Only a small fraction of cars are ever raced! Following this logic a Toyota Corolla is in the same class as a Lotus Elise. Furthermore horsepower is a rather irrelevant statistic. As stated many times before, horsepower sells cars, but it's torque that wins races. I much rather have a car with a 3 litre 240 hp engine, which most likely has a broad powerband then a 2 litre 240 bhp, which has impressive peak performance, but is not driveable at all. Formula 1 engines have very impressive horsepower figures, but I'd rather have a LS7 in my daily driver.

You mean low rpm HP not torque...

HP is one of the only relevant statistics to compare engines with.

Also just because an engine is small and has a high HP/L rating does not mean it is not driveable, you just have to drive it differently then you would if it was a large V8...

[fpv_gtho]

HP/L is totally irrelevant what is relevant is that BMW's M5 is powered by a 5L V10 that redlines at 8250rpm and produces 500hp (and it has won 4 international engine of the year awards).

How else do you expect to compare 2 systems and their effectiveness? You want to go to a % gain on the same engine with and without the systems?