why do people who dont like vtec ... dont like vtec?

[fpv_gtho]

Performance in traffic might not be, but when people want to drive these cars on a daily basis, and maybe save a few bucks on fuel by not driving it like a maniac, then a fat torque curve is advantageous.

[KnifeEdge_2K1]

Performance in traffic might not be, but when people want to drive these cars on a daily basis, and maybe save a few bucks on fuel by not driving it like a maniac, then a fat torque curve is advantageous.

if you're trying to save money on fuel, you'd never be using all that torque anyways, just full throttle it and shortshift for a couple gears and you're up to cruising speed, even the least gutsy engines can do this no problem, no need for a fat torque curve there

it really depends on the culture i think, people here in america are lazy, they just wanna buy the car look good and have it go fast without doing work (who can be bothered with a clutch and gearshift nowadays right ?)

you can say im being stereotypical or wutever but hey, i live in north america, i know how lazy we are so stfu

[Alastor]

No, what he said was correct, it was a quote from Carroll Shelby.

He never made any mistakes?

Your car accelerates on your torque curve exactly

The acceleration is directly proprotainal to torque, and it is also poroptional to power it just isnt a linear relationship.

if your making 300ft.lbs at 2000RPMs and 300ft.lbs at 4000RPMs you will be making double the hp, but wont be pulling any harder in the same gear.

Well if the cars are otherwise identical, then the car at 2,000 RPMs is going half the speed of the car at 4,000 rpms.

Does a car accelerate faster from 0 - 60 mph or from 100 - 160 mph? The speed at which the acceleration takes place matters.

[2ndclasscitizen]

you can say im being stereotypical or wutever but hey, i live in north america, i know how lazy we are so stfu

Was that neccessary?

[hightower99]

No, what he said was correct, it was a quote from Carroll Shelby. Your car accelerates on your torque curve exactly, if your making 300ft.lbs at 2000RPMs and 300ft.lbs at 4000RPMs you will be making double the hp, but wont be pulling any harder in the same gear.
Peak hp is irrelivent in many cases, lets take the infamous "dyno queen" Supras for example. They are known as dyno queens because they make OMG 1000hp!$!@@#$@#, but end up only being able to run 11s or so in the 1/4 mile. Why? Because they are only making that 1000hp for like 200RPMs, the torque curve looks like: ______^

OK who doesn't know the famous quote from Shelby? the thing is that it is wrong.

Your car accelerates on it's thrust curve exactly, thrust in a car is the torque at the wheels after it is modified by the gearbox, differential, and diameter of the wheel and tire. so in your example if you accelerate from 2000rpm with 300lbs/ft of torque and then try accelerating at 4000rpm with still 300lbs/ft of torque and if you were using the same gear for both then guess what...
When you accelerated from 4000rpm you used more power! because you were already moving at a higher speed than if you started accelerating from 2000 in the same gear. Now lets try something even better. Use 4th gear and accelerate from 2000rpm and 40mph then try again using 3rd gear and stomping on it from 4000rpm and 40mph. What happens? You accelerate much faster in the lower gear, why? because the thrust the car generates in that gear is greater. Now I will tell you what the point of HP is. Higher HP means you can gear things lower and generate more thrust.

Oh and about the supras only people who don't know how to tune the engine will do that. There are plenty of 8 second and faster supras that barely make more than 1000hp. Also show me the HP curves that show a peak HP figure that lasts longer than 200rpm? most peak HP figures barely last 100rpm.

[2ndclasscitizen]

OK who doesn't know the famous quote from Shelby? the thing is that it is wrong.

Methinks Carrol Shleby knows more about building fast and successful racing cars and engines than you.

[fpv_gtho]

if you're trying to save money on fuel, you'd never be using all that torque anyways, just full throttle it and shortshift for a couple gears and you're up to cruising speed, even the least gutsy engines can do this no problem, no need for a fat torque curve there

Obviously youve got different conceptions of saving fuel, such as gently accelerating through the gears to top gear, then trying to stay there as long as possible. If youve got a fat enough torque curve you can keep the car in 4th-5th-6th all day so long as you dont have to stop.

[hightower99]

Methinks Carrol Shleby knows more about building fast and successful racing cars and engines than you.

Carrol Shelby is not a genius and was never the greatest of speakers. What he did with his hands didn't always match what he said. Now when he said the famous quote of "HP sells cars, Torque wins races" what he meant was "high peak HP values sells cars, The HP curve (especially low rpm HP which requires alot of low down torque) wins races."

He didn't mean peak torque wins races...

[KnifeEdge_2K1]

Obviously youve got different conceptions of saving fuel, such as gently accelerating through the gears to top gear, then trying to stay there as long as possible. If youve got a fat enough torque curve you can keep the car in 4th-5th-6th all day so long as you dont have to stop.

uh .. wrong

full throttle acceleration with short shifts up to cruising speed is best for economy, you're removing the throttle plate obstruction and making the most of what your car can do, you short shift so that you dont run into the high rpm range where friction losses are greater

[Bob]

uh .. wrong

full throttle acceleration with short shifts up to cruising speed is best for economy, you're removing the throttle plate obstruction and making the most of what your car can do, you short shift so that you dont run into the high rpm range where friction losses are greater

Not always true. Regular cars aren't race cars. Example: our 1990 GMC Safari fouls the engine and shoots blue smoke out the back at full throttle. Full throttle may work on an engine in perfect or even good condition, but often its better to use a lighter throttle.

[KnifeEdge_2K1]

i never mentioned anything about race cars, your example is invalid because the car isnt working reliably, most likely because your pistons have lost compression

[6speed]

Why don't people like Vtec... because it's made by honda. And some people don't like Honda.

[2ndclasscitizen]

Carrol Shelby is not a genius and was never the greatest of speakers. What he did with his hands didn't always match what he said. Now when he said the famous quote of "HP sells cars, Torque wins races" what he meant was "high peak HP values sells cars, The HP curve (especially low rpm HP which requires alot of low down torque) wins races."

He didn't mean peak torque wins races...

So you know exactly what he meant do you?

[Slicks]

you forget that torque is changed by gear ratios, just because a car has 500ft-lbs of torque doesnt neccesarily mean it will accelerate faster, gear ratios can easily mask the peakyness of an engine, and ultimately power is what matters at the top end, there are hundreds of variables to take into account, but you're right a fatter torque curve IS better then a tiny one, but also take this into consideration

Yes, wheel torque is what counts.

let's say we have an engine which has a rather fat torque curve and let's arbitrarly set the redline rpm to 7000, if you shorten the stroke and widen the bore, the engine will make less low rpm torque but alot more high rpm power, now you can use the gear ratios to make up for the lower torque at the low end, but extra power you get at the top end will more then make up for that

Or you could do the opposite, and use gear ratios to put down even more torque. Whats your point?

[Slicks]

if you're trying to save money on fuel, you'd never be using all that torque anyways, just full throttle it and shortshift for a couple gears and you're up to cruising speed, even the least gutsy engines can do this no problem, no need for a fat torque curve there

The thing with large dispalced engines is they make gobs of torque no matter how much throttle your using. I pass traffic feathering my throttle and shifting at 1500-2000RPMs(2001 Trans Am).

it really depends on the culture i think, people here in america are lazy, they just wanna buy the car look good and have it go fast without doing work (who can be bothered with a clutch and gearshift nowadays right ?)

you can say im being stereotypical or wutever but hey, i live in north america, i know how lazy we are so stfu

Im going to have to disagree.
For starters many people dont know how to drive a manual, and not because they are too "lazy" but because it usually has an image of being 'inferior' to an auto (this is to the common man, not a performance enthusiest). I know many people who think that conventional autos are quicker than manuals. And remember, here we generally seem to care more for dragracing than road racing. Many of our base cars come in autos, and charge for the manual option, and some cars dont even come in manual. Many girls I know are scared of breaking something if they dont know how to drive a stick.
And I dont blame people for not wanting to do clutch work in rush hour traffic.