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  1. #1
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    The future of the car and the environment

    Thought I'd start a thread on the future of the motor car, with particular reference to the impact of cars on the environment.

    As we know, the car relies on the internal combustion engine, which in turn uses oil. Oil is a rapidly dwindling resource, with various estimates on how much is left. I've heard that there may be as few as ten years of oil reserves left, although the exact number of years is open to interpretation. It is a fact that oil will run out, though.

    With this in mind, what is the most likely direction that the car will take. Will fuel cell hydrogen cars become the norm? What about the infrastructure required for these cars. How long will this take to develop? Or is there other potential sources of fuel once oil supplies run out? Perhaps electric cars? Or methonol?

    Personally, I do think that hydrogen fuel cells will be the way to go. From what I understand, hydrogen fuel cell cars will provide most of the performance of petrol/diesel powered cars, but without any emissions. Provided the hydrogen is produced from a clean source (ie: not from oil driven power stations, which just shifts the problem), we can totally eliminate emissions coming from the exhausts of cars.

    Also, how do we solve the problems of congestion? The car is a remarkable device in terms of enabling people to easily and cheaply move from point A to B. Not to mention the freedom aspect. However, in the cities they tend to be an inefficient form of transport. In many of the larger cities, the average speed is as low as 10 km/h. Not only that, most cars driven in cities only have one passenger. How do we solve the problems regarding congestion? Increase public transport options and bicycle lanes help. As do automated motorway warning systems which advise of problems ahead and alternative routes.

    Finally, a friend of mine once explained that the main problem of the car is that the manufacturing process behind the car is too "energy intensive". Of course it is. The steel, plastics and rubber industries are all energy intensive, and the car wouldn't exist without them. I think his point was primarily intended to suggest that if the car was somehow banned and all the industries associated with it went out of business (thus resulting in mass unemployment and anger amongst the workers affected), then a more desirable economic/societal system to capitalism would emerge. While I myself have some problems with capitalism (although at present, I don't see any alternatives that I prefer), I don't agree that the car should be banned on the basis that it is too "energy intensive". However, I do think that ways should be found to reduce the overall impact of the car on the world's resources, for example through recycling.

    Now, before you attack me for being a tree hugging greenie, believe me when I say I am a car and motorsport enthusiast in every way. I also care for the environment. The issues I've raised are important ones, and as enthusiasts we should be able to discuss them. The car will be around many decades to come. However, I believe the industry has reached a cross roads which will determine how the car survives and in what form.

    Your thoughts please. Also, perhaps we can have the engineers explain in simple English, some of the technical aspects of alternative fuel cars.

  2. #2
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    Doesn't the BMW 7 Series have a hydrogen engine as an option? I'm sure I saw it in an ad somewhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spastik_Roach
    Doesn't the BMW 7 Series have a hydrogen engine as an option? I'm sure I saw it in an ad somewhere.
    BMW has quite a history with hydrogen vehicles, actually...tracing back a few decades. They've never offered it as an option, but I suppose the very affluent buyer might want to buy one. It wouldn't be impractical, either, because they use converted multi-fuel engines (hydrogen or gasoline).

    A fleet of forty 750ih taxis were (and probably still are) used to take people back and forth from the Munich airport to BMW headquarters. I think it's a great idea

  4. #4
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    Hydrogen power is all very well, but you still need energy from power stations to produce hydrogen, so the overall level of pollution won't be affected untill a truly 'green' way of producing electricity is implemented.

    What I would like to see is Hydrogen fuel cells in normal passenger cars, and sports cars using a hydrogen internal combustion engine.
    Thanks for all the fish

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    just a quick reply on the oil reserves, it could be that "easy" crude oil supplies will dwindle quite rapidly, but more costly ones (the tar sands in Canada and the shale oil in Venezuela) can last much longer, but are much more expensive to extract. Oil reserves are not only physical, but are also a function of the price. The economics of the internal combustion engine will therefore change, opening possibilities for other energy sources. It appears that the major oil companies are betting on hydrogen.
    Whatever the propulsion, the basic energy needs to produce a vehicle will remain the same, but these could be supplied in a more concentrated way, for instance through nuclear energy (yes, this is a can of worms).
    It can be safely said that within 10-20 years the years of cheap, individual motoring will most likely be over, and the biggest consumer in the world, the USA might start to realise that there are limits to freedom. It is interesting to see the Pavlov like reaction of the consumers there to fuel prices which are only one third of what we pay in Europe. They might be in for a shock.

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    Quote Originally Posted by henk4
    It can be safely said that within 10-20 years the years of cheap, individual motoring will most likely be over, and the biggest consumer in the world, the USA might start to realise that there are limits to freedom. It is interesting to see the Pavlov like reaction of the consumers there to fuel prices which are only one third of what we pay in Europe. They might be in for a shock.
    You're probably right, unfortunately. As an enthusiast who isn't particularly rich, I do hope your prediction turns out to be wrong. I hope I'm not forced to give up my private car due to the reasons you've just mentioned.
    To inject a touch of optimisim...I've read that current fuel cells vehicles can be compared to the early petrol cars of the 20th century. And that in 1900 it was hard to find a petrol station, but by 1910 a massive infrastructure for the petrol car was already in place (in the US at least). Maybe history is repeating itself, and hydrogen (or some other alternative) will become the cheap source of energy that oil was in the 20th century. It may come down to simple supply and demand. I recognize the problems we face, but lets hope that a cheap source of energy can be found and the infrastructure to support it developed.

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    There is also the option to use biodiesel, which can be grown ad libitum. This will first need to remove the antipathic feelings that many people still have against diesel engines. The biggest thread for current oil supplies is the economic development of both China and India, where it can't be that long that much more people will require/demand individual transport. If that takes off than the sheer mass of those countries will deplete any reasonable reserve.

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    I think Methanol is a viable temporary alternative fuel source, I've had this site bookmarked for quite a while http://www.methanol.org/fuelcell/special/amipromise.pdf an incredible amount of information on Methanol and Methanol powered cars though a bit drawn out, I also wonder as to how biased it is.

    For members who are enviromentally concerned - but don't want to be bored to tears, I suggest downloaded (from Kazaa, etc.) GROW MORE POT by Jello Biafra, its a spoken word file. He touches on the use of hemp plants as alternative to trees for paper supply, Methanol extraction from hemp as opposed to cornstalks, a replacement for soy and a little bit on medicinal values ... plus its entertaining (the download, not necessarily the hemp )!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by henk4
    There is also the option to use biodiesel, which can be grown ad libitum.
    I saw on Top Gear(what a program!! ) a diesel car being run on some sort of cooking oil(probably vegetable,cant quite remember) without any ill affects at all,with the AA bloke who was driving saying that the car felt as responsive as with diesel,if not more!

    bring it on i say,much as i like petrol i think diesel(or equivelant substitute) is the fuel for the future
    owner of the Best avatar!

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coventrysucks
    Hydrogen power is all very well, but you still need energy from power stations to produce hydrogen, so the overall level of pollution won't be affected untill a truly 'green' way of producing electricity is implemented.

    Quite true. Switching to hydrogen by itself won't solve the problem. It will simply switch the source of the pollution. So, how do we go about producing hydrogen in an environmental sound way? I remember reading something about a process of extracting hydrogen from sea water. Apparently such methods would have zero emissions. Maybe an engineer can it explain the process in simple terms and someone can tell us how far away we are from using such processes.

  11. #11
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    The whole point in not using any form of oil to move us from A to B is really how creative we are. I think we should be using Kinetic power to move our cars and trucks. It is after all the most wasted energy we produce every second of the day and FREE!

    Example: look at this 'you tube' demo...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA0ai...engineering%2F

    That is nothing more than a giant size hand crank.

    If someone can make something as simple as this, why can't we put this in a car or truck. Just replace the device that moves the entire thing to the rotation of the tires that moves the car. (must have an elecrtic vehicle)

    Come on people of the world. We use kinetic energy to create power of our homes, businesses, and industry, (Niagara Falls, Hover dam and so forth.) As we drive our cars, the wind that flys pass us as we move forward is all kinetic. The rotation of the tires is being moved by our gas powered engine, again kinetic. What the hell are we doing b!#^%ing about hydrogen this, corn yak, (biodiesel) and of course, imported oil?

    how is it that Niagara Falls provides power to the entire east coast on falling water, but yet we can't harnest power from a tire that "ROTATES"....or WIND moving at the speeds we drive at... WoW....

    http://teg.net/TESLA/ewindstar1.jpg ....Don't get me wrong the whole turbine on top pf the car deal not my cup of tea but the car can run forever. Some people make tri-brids for their boats to move.

    All anyone has to do is change the ratio of the rotating tire to higher speeds to the generator or alternator, using belts we alreeady use for our engines. All the generator has to do is out do the drag, weight, & resistants. (prividing enouge power to car's elecric motor.)

    Once the car is at a certian speed, the generator takes over to recharge the batteries that propell car and provide power to the Electic motor ... anything that rotates, has the ability to produce power.

    Tesla Motors at one point did do this very thing, but they only did it for short Distances back in the day. had they just kept researching, who knows. here is another post:

    http://teslamotorsclub.com/forum/ind...pic,315.0.html

    we really don't need oil... most people don't drive 50 to 300 miles each day. If you gave everyone one electic car for local driving and one car for long distant driving most would hope in the EV just to get from A to B and use the gas power car driving long distants.

    The hybrid is the perfect example of both EV and gas powered. Some take out the manufactured battery and replace it with a larger one and they plug it in never using gas during their local commute. When they start driving at greater distances, the gas powered engine take over. When they get to their destination, they just plug it back in and it's electric again. The only problem here is that we are still using gas.

    why not let the car charge itself as you drive from the rotation of the tire?

    all these cars and trucks at this site http://maeaa.org/links.html needs what i'm stating to increase their range.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpubasics1 View Post
    http://teg.net/TESLA/ewindstar1.jpg
    ...Don't get me wrong the whole turbine on top of the car deal not my cup of tea but the car can run forever.
    Sorry - that was a joke. Perpetual motion doesn't work.

    Please read the "Balance" blog here:
    http://www.teslamotors.com/blog2/?p=24
    Find the section called "Something for Nothing".

  13. #13
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    I like ethanol as the best alternative fuel, it's $0.30 a gallon cheaper than gas, and totally renewable, once they start using 100% ethanol anyway. Right now it's E-85 which is 85% ethanol.

    But biodiesel is also a viable alternative, since most diesel engines can run on it currently AFAIK. And there are some nice diesel trucks out there... (GMC Sierra 2500HD with full leather, Bose sound system, etc. *drool smiley*) But until it becomes available at every gas station I don't think anyone will choose it over regular diesel.
    Last edited by my porsche; 06-17-2007 at 09:50 AM.
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    In that palace in the sun
    On the shore lay Montezuma
    With his cocoa leaves and pearls

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by my porsche View Post
    I like ethanol as the best alternative fuel, it's $0.30 a gallon cheaper than gas, and totally renewable, once they start using 100% ethanol anyway. Right now it's E-85 which is 85% ethanol.
    Cars that i know of respond very badly to ethanol.. My brothers 2003 Ford had one tank that his partner stuck in it and the car has been off for the last 3 tanks.. He know is running 98 octane fuel and it's getting better but slowly.. Then think of my car that's a 92 model it will most likely run like shit on even E10 Ethanol.
    Now the only way to use ethanol and not have issues with it is to have the car company's build there engines to suit it.. Until then it's no good to the population with cars under 3-5 years old.
    "Just a matter of time i suppose"

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    What if there were cars that pumps Reverse Osmosis water, and with an on board high efficiency electrolisis chamber, and solar panels. Hence during the day, the solar panels will provided electricity for the electrolisis, and at night, there would be a socket that plugs into the household electric line, performing electrolisis as well.

    All the hydrogen will be stored in another chamber, once burned in combustion engine, (burning hydrogen leaves water) and walla! Exhaust will be water vapor and the leftover oxygen from the electrolisis.
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