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Thread: The Dutch way of fighting a war !

  1. #1
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    The Dutch way of fighting a war !

    Don't fight, but talk. So far our approach seems to be working. We suffered just one or two casaulties in two years time in both Afghanistan AND Iraq together.


    Quote Originally Posted by http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2533123,00.html
    Two months after Dutch troops arrived in southern Afghanistan, Colonel Theo Vleugels established a hilltop outpost on the fringes of Taleban territory. The conventional strategy would have been to build a “platoon house” surrounded by sandbags, razor wire and machinegun posts, as the British did in Helmand province.

    However, Colonel Vleugels, commander of the Dutch force in neighbouring Uruzgan province, was convinced that that would antagonise the local population. So he built a qala — a traditional Pashtun home with mud walls and a large reception room where guests are greeted in the local fashion with tea, nuts and dried fruit. It is designed as a base for Dutch soldiers and as a place for local people — including those close to the Taleban — to air grievances and talk politics.
    “You don’t want it to look like a fortress — there has to be a balance between accessibility and defensibility,” Colonel Vleugels said. “You have to be among the people to influence them. By offering them help and work, they can make a choice. If they then decide to fight, we’ll fight back, but that should be a last resort.”
    Whereas the British pushed deep into enemy territory in Helmand, only to be surrounded by the Taleban, the Dutch have held back to secure Tarin Kowt and Dihrawud, the two main towns in Uruzgan. They keep their troops on a tight leash and form alliances with tribal leaders.
    Most controversially, they are backing Abdul Hakim Munib, the new Governor of Uruzgan, in his efforts to negotiate with the Taleban — something that Nato officially opposes.
    “Whenever I find water flowing in the wrong direction, I try to turn it towards ours,” said Mr Munib, 36, a mullah and former Taleban official who is still on the UN Security Council wanted list. “I did work with the Taleban and I’m proud of it — I was working for the stability and prosperity of the nation,” he told The Times. “I don’t want to kill my people. I want to do something for them.” Mr Munib became governor last March. Dutch forces began deploying in August and reached their full strength, of 1,400 troops, in October.
    Since August, the Dutch have carried out more than 400 patrols. They have lost one soldier, who committed suicide, and suffered four injuries in combat. Civilian casualties have also been very low, the governor said.
    By comparison, British troops lost 36 men in southern Afghanistan last year and the Canadians lost 35 soldiers and one diplomat. President Karzai publicly wept over the number of civilian casualties last month.
    Nato officials bristle at the idea that there is a “Dutch model” that might be applicable to Helmand or any other province. “The Dutch are doing what we’d all like to do — we just don’t have the opportunity,” one said.
    Some say that the Dutch simply had good luck in their first few months in Uruzgan. Others attribute the relative stability in the south to American special forces who have pinned down the Taleban in the mountainous north of the province.
    Some critics accuse the Dutch of surrendering most of Uruzgan to the Taleban without a fight. “Go 5km from the governor’s house and you’re in Taleban territory,” said Naimatullah, 32, who runs a telephone shop in Tarin Kowt. “The old governor used to fight the Taleban. The new one just talks.”
    Dutch commanders admit that they are moving slowly — not least because of their bitter memories of peacekeeping in Bosnia, where, in 1995, a Dutch force with poor equipment and a flimsy UN mandate was unable to prevent the massacre of more than 8,300 Bosnian Muslims in Srebrenica.
    That led to fierce debate in parliament before the Dutch joined the Nato mission in Afghanistan. As a result, Dutch troops have facilities, equipment and rules of engagement that are the envy of their Nato partners. They eat, sleep and work not in tents but in blast-proof reinforced-steel containers. They have their own air support of eight Apache helicopters and seven F16 fighters. They have wi-fi internet access throughout their base at Camp Holland. They patrol Tarin Kowt once a day and when their reconstruction teams venture out they are well protected by escorts.
    The Dutch have studied closely the the complex tribal, political, family and financial ties that govern Afghan society. Each soldier has a course in Afghan culture, including a visit to a mosque and dinner in a Dutch Afghan’s home. Dutch commanders display an understanding of Afghan society that is rare among their Nato partners.
    “Everything has been done with great respect for local culture, traditions and tribal leaders — that has had a positive impact,” Mr Munib said.
    Quite different from the other's approach who beat up people without reason and act violently against the citizens.No wonder hate emerges...
    Last edited by drakkie; 01-06-2007 at 03:53 AM.

  2. #2
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    The Dutch way of fighting a war:

    *Crickets chirp*
    Rockefella says:
    pat's sister is hawt
    David Fiset says:
    so is mine
    David Fiset says:
    do want

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    That's smart, but it doesn't win wars. If America went in with the same approach, they wouldn't have caught Saddam.
    ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ

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    Quote Originally Posted by ADRENALINE
    That's smart, but it doesn't win wars. If America went in with the same approach, they wouldn't have caught Saddam.
    I am afraid we are all witnessing at the moment that the american approach also does not win wars.....
    "I find the whole business of religion profoundly interesting, but it does mystify me that otherwise intelligent people take it seriously." Douglas Adams

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rockefella
    The Dutch way of fighting a war:

    *Crickets chirp*
    at least all their soldiers are still alive (cept for the one that commited suicide)...

    and it seems to be getting the job done, in securing hostile areas, with a minimal loss of life. so instead of being a smart-ass, contribute something meaningful and intelligent to this conversation, or fark off to one of the random senseless threads in this forum and leave this one, with it's insightful information, alone!!!

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    Mud huts + Rocket propelled grenade = mess.
    ' For the tenacious, no road is impassable '.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shockwaveracing
    at least all their soldiers are still alive (cept for the one that commited suicide)...

    and it seems to be getting the job done, in securing hostile areas, with a minimal loss of life. so instead of being a smart-ass, contribute something meaningful and intelligent to this conversation, or fark off to one of the random senseless threads in this forum and leave this one, with it's insightful information, alone!!!
    In true n00bness i can reply only one word:

    OWNED

    Since I am not a n00b (anymore ) i should reply something useful.

    Perhaps i shall share the story of an ex-marine that is in my class. He is now 27 and has been sent out to Iraq AND Afghanistan. He told me about one mission together with the Americans in Afghanistan. The objective was to capture some big drug dealers in a town near Kabul. The US supplied one platoon and the Netherlands one too.


    The Americans kicked in doors and violently invaded all the houses. The women were scared and sometimes even beaten if they wouldnt cooperate. The men went out to greet them and were beaten and worked to the ground.

    The Dutch stood there watching amazed. They knocked on the doors and waited a bit for the people to answer before entering the house. The women inside were peacefully asked to stand up and stand in a corner(to guard them easily). The men were greeted and asked to go sit somewhere in the centre of the town on the ground. They were searched without a problem.

    So while both platoons were searching their part of the town, a few shots sounded. An Afghan man "took" his justice and shot an American. The American touched his wife and he did what he was expected to do. Defend her. The American was hit in the leg and stomach and transported to hospital. He recovered without a problem luckily. Two Afghans (he nd his son) were shot by the Americans.

    The drug dealers were not found, they had moved elsewhere.Two innocent lifes were lost...

    My classmate was and is still amazed about the stupidity of the American(s). It was an amazing story to hear and i was actually impressed. We seemed to act so much different. I now have a bit of a better understanding of why the Americans are hated by these people, while we Dutch are mostly seen as friends. It may even explain some of the current increase of violence in both Afghanistan and Iraq




    Quote Originally Posted by Imakuni
    Mud huts + Rocket propelled grenade = mess.
    As said the Aghan people respect us because of our actions. It is much more unlikely to get an RPG upon it.
    Last edited by drakkie; 01-06-2007 at 08:29 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by drakkie
    The Americans kicked in doors and violently invaded all the houses. The women were scared and sometimes even beaten if they wouldnt cooperate. The men went out to greet them and were beaten and worked to the ground.

    The Dutch stood there watching amazed. They knocked on the doors and waited a bit for the people to answer before entering the house. The women inside were peacefully asked to stand up and stand in a corner(to guard them easily). The men were greeted and asked to go sit somewhere in the centre of the town on the ground. They were searched without a problem.
    that's how the war works. you won't control situation by peacefully greeting the offenders and asking them to give in. of course, you can say that those were not the offenders, but how could they know?
    12 cylinders or walk!

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    Quote Originally Posted by dydzi
    that's how the war works. you won't control situation by peacefully greeting the offenders and asking them to give in. of course, you can say that those were not the offenders, but how could they know?
    because they live to tell about it.....and the story also goes to show the lack of intelligence quality that has so marred the whole iraqi and afghan conflicts....and furthermore they were looking for drug dealers.....but of course those are terrorists too, because they supply the stuff that so many americans are so keen on buying
    Last edited by henk4; 01-06-2007 at 08:38 AM.
    "I find the whole business of religion profoundly interesting, but it does mystify me that otherwise intelligent people take it seriously." Douglas Adams

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    Quote Originally Posted by henk4
    because they live to tell about it.....and the story also goes to show the lack of intelligence quality that has so marred the whole iraqi and afghan conflicts....and furthermore they were looking for drug dealers.....but of course those are terrorists too, because they supply the stuff that so many americans are so keen on buying
    okay, of course the whole act described was a mistake and may show some inabilities of american troops

    BUT imo the approach is proper - notabene shouting is not an expression of aggression, but has to be used in order to influence the people to obey - it's not a gentleman meeting by the cup of tea, but war - danger can be everywhere
    12 cylinders or walk!

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    Quote Originally Posted by dydzi
    that's how the war works. you won't control situation by peacefully greeting the offenders and asking them to give in. of course, you can say that those were not the offenders, but how could they know?
    Obviously if they are threatening the soldiers they may threaten too. If they are unarmed,what is the point of shooting ? In this case they only killed two civilians while totally unnecassary !!! They should have been taught Afghan customs and habits and nothing would have happened. Tell that to the families of the dead and injured

    My classmate received a two week trainign about Afghan culture. They had one week of theory and a week of getting used to it. They had to go to the mosque and make contact to people. They would invite them over as is good custom. Those soldiers know their way around and might find it much easier to NOT use violence.

    I must sound like a very pro-Dutch military person. I cant care, atleast they do their missions better as most/any coalition army. And THAT is something to be pretty proud of !!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by dydzi
    danger can be everywhere
    And you can eliminate it witout using violence. Violence only creates violence,as is clearly shown.

    If you suddenly receive a punch in the face, what do you do ? Do you hit back without thinking and try to fight back OR would you relax and let them keep hitting you ?
    Im pretty sure you wont do the second.. That basically describes what they people do.

    EDIT: Where the hell did your post go ?
    Last edited by drakkie; 01-06-2007 at 09:09 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by henk4
    because they live to tell about it.....and the story also goes to show the lack of intelligence quality that has so marred the whole iraqi and afghan conflicts....and furthermore they were looking for drug dealers.....but of course those are terrorists too, because they supply the stuff that so many americans are so keen on buying
    Everyone's a terrorist these days .. excepting the 'good guy' invaders & oppressors of course

    The US and its coalition stooges lost this war years ago. Senior defence analysts have been publically admitting as much since late 2003. All that remains is for public opinion to catch up to reality

    Imo the 'Dutch approach' described by Drakkie seems an eminently sensible way for foreigners to stand half a chance of effecting change in what ultimately is someone else's country, without resorting to killing them en masse and ensuring those who survive permanently hate you

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    The Dutch were one of the coalition stooges too...the current PM and probably the next has so far refused a proper investigation in the way how we were lured into it.....probably one reason being that at that time we had a candidate for NATO secretary general (from the same party as our PM) that needed the US support. (but maybe I am just a cynical old fart)
    "I find the whole business of religion profoundly interesting, but it does mystify me that otherwise intelligent people take it seriously." Douglas Adams

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    Quote Originally Posted by drakkie
    Obviously if they are threatening the soldiers they may threaten too. If they are unarmed,what is the point of shooting ? In this case they only killed two civilians while totally unnecassary !!! They should have been taught Afghan customs and habits and nothing would have happened. Tell that to the families of the dead and injured
    how the hell could they be sure they are unarmed? they were thinking those are the drug dealers, right? the possibility afganian drug dealers are armed is fairly high

    BTW, all the troops sent to iraq do ARE learned the iraqi culture (by polish experts)

    Quote Originally Posted by drakkie
    I must sound like a very pro-Dutch military person. I cant care, atleast they do their missions better as most/any coalition army. And THAT is something to be pretty proud of !!!
    to be honest, i'm somewhat interested in the coalition-army wars and have to admit i've never heard of any success of the dutch army they do that much as ukraine or norway... that is not too much

    Quote Originally Posted by drakkie
    And you can eliminate it witout using violence. Violence only creates violence,as is clearly shown.

    If you suddenly receive a punch in the face, what do you do ? Do you hit back without thinking and try to fight back OR would you relax and let them keep hitting you ?
    Im pretty sure you wont do the second.. That basically describes what they people do.
    puhleaase, i'm talking about situations like fighting with the rebelians of defending some rocket-missle attacks. what does the dutch army do so wise then - go out on the street and say 'hey, let's talk?'
    Last edited by dydzi; 01-06-2007 at 09:39 AM.
    12 cylinders or walk!

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