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Thread: Saddam's lawyer

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by henk4
    was it intensified after 9/11?
    Most likely, I'm not sure of that, though.

    To be honest, as an American, who has seen the NSA hq, I am scared to death of the NSA. Massive windowless black boxes are very imposing. I don't agree with it's existance or it's methods. It's in my home state, and it has it's own exit/entrance for I-95 which is guarded by a four state police officeres 24/7(2 cars 2 officers each).
    Last edited by Mr.Tiv; 01-09-2007 at 02:14 PM.
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  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Tiv
    Most likely, I'm not sure of that, though.
    "secret" service
    "I find the whole business of religion profoundly interesting, but it does mystify me that otherwise intelligent people take it seriously." Douglas Adams

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by henk4
    "secret" service
    National "Security" Agency. America's FSB.
    Go n-ithe an cat thu, is go n-ithe an diabhal an cat

    When you go Home, Tell them for us and say 'For your tommorrow, We Gave Our Today.'

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Tiv
    National "Security" Agency.
    and over 30 other "security" services
    "I find the whole business of religion profoundly interesting, but it does mystify me that otherwise intelligent people take it seriously." Douglas Adams

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by henk4
    so the practice had been going on long before 9/11....and still 9/11 could not be prevented. Is that what you are saying?
    It could not be prevented because Clinton created the stupid "Torricelli Principle." It banned obtaining information from former terrorists and other criminals, which led to a large part of the CIA's and FBI's information drying up.
    Last edited by Fleet 500; 01-09-2007 at 02:44 PM.
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  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daz27
    What I am going to say is that I wish they didnt have this stupid 2 term rule. If that were the case, Bill would still be in charge and we'd still be carrying on over another impeachment proceeding.
    Yeah, if Bill were still in charge, there was be terrorist attacks continuing and he would be doing little or nothing about it. Just like he did in the '90s.

    But I would bet it wouldnt have been the typical texan all guns a blazing shoot em dead and ask questions later style like it has been with the current administration.
    Yeah, guns blazing, shoot-'em-dead and ask questions later, even though Iraq was invaded almost 1 and 1/2 years after the 9/11 attacks and Bush had Congressional approval which Clinton didn't have went he ordered many of his attacks in foreign countries. I guess Clinton is even more of a "guns blazing" type of guy, even though he isn't from Texas.

    and abdicates to give Bill Clinton another go cos I liked him.
    You can have him. He did enough damage in 8 years.
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  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt
    If the Presidential elections had been held anytime in the last two years, Bush would be out of office. The Congressional elections showed that the American people are overwhelmingly against the administration policies, especially on Iraq. Every news poll shows that the American public is very much disappointed and even outraged at the way the war has been conducted. There are protests against the war and against Bush. There have been ever since his first election and well into his second term. There were even massive protests at his innaugural parade. There is more negative news about the Iraq war here than there is wherever you are, believe me. This is not a happy country right now. This is not a proud country. But, we have what we have and we know it's short-term. Cut us some slack.
    Matt you're an intelligent & decent guy. What would you rate as the main reason why US public opinion has turned against the war?

    Is it because of an outward looking view, ie:

    Embarrassment for US Govt lies paraded to the world as false justification to wage a 9/11 war against a non 9/11 third party
    Abhorrence of the (initial & continuing) mass slaughter imposed upon the Iraqi people
    Shame over US war crimes, including Abu Ghriab & Guantanamo etc
    Regret at causing the virtual destruction a country
    Guilt for usurping Iraqi oil assets

    or moreso viewed in internal US terms:

    Cost to US prestige & international standing
    Cost to the US taxpayer
    Cost in US lives
    Growing realisation that the US has lost the war

    From afar it seems to belong to the latter group, and particularly the last item

    Overall, going to war against Iraq was widely supported in the US. America needed a target. It was a bipartisan decision backed by both Republican and Democrat, and majority electoral support enabled Iraqi-George to be voted in again, to continue the policy. Those tasty freedom fries (cooked in foreign oil) were too tempting to refuse. It seems only since the recent domestic realisation of US Defeat has there been the major opinion-shift you speak of, with America now viewed from within as a tragic 'victim of itself' .. whilst the calamity in and of Iraq still fails to register within US conciousness, nor apparently does the culpability

    In the broad it's hard to accept Iraq as some kind of unrepresentative US abberation; rather it is merely a continuation of the long tradition of American realpolitik: eg inteference, subterfuge, oppression, puppet govts, regime change, war mongering, Imperialism
    Last edited by nota; 01-09-2007 at 05:56 PM.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by nota
    Is it because of an outward looking view, ie:

    Embarrassment for US Govt lies paraded to the world as false justification to wage a 9/11 war against a non 9/11 third party
    Abhorrence of the (initial & continuing) mass slaughter imposed upon the Iraqi people
    Shame over US war crimes, including Abu Ghriab & Guantanamo etc
    Regret at causing the virtual destruction a country
    Guilt for usurping Iraqi oil assets

    or moreso viewed in internal US terms:

    Cost to US prestige & international standing
    Cost to the US taxpayer
    Cost in US lives
    Growing realisation that the US has lost the war

    From afar it seems to belong to the latter group, and particularly the last item
    Well from this here "afar" (ie the UK) I would concur that the latter group is certainly prominent, but perhaps I'm not quite so cynical about Americans as you are. I'd also say that points 1 and 3 from the first group were also hugely important in swaying public opinion against the war. America likes to see itself as the righteous up-holder of international justice, and its armed forces as agents of that justice. I think that to publicly see that both the government and sections of the armed forces had actually gotten their hands very dirty indeed over the whole Iraq shambles was an enormous shock for the majority of the American public. Their faith in their country being the worthy arbiter of international justice and liberal democracy has been shaken to the core by the shameful actions and revelations of the past 5 years.

    That's how I see it from here in Blighty anyway, maybe Matt or other Americans of the forum may disagree...
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  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by nota
    Embarrassment for US Govt lies paraded to the world as false justification to wage a 9/11 war against a non 9/11 third party
    Enough with that false claim. Many other governments made the same claims as the U.S. government. It wasn't a "lie."

    In the broad it's hard to accept Iraq as some kind of unrepresentative US abberation; rather it is merely a continuation of the long tradition of American realpolitik: eg inteference, subterfuge, oppression, puppet govts, regime change, war mongering, Imperialism
    Enough of that, too... making claims of the U.S. "war mongering" and "imperialism" is ridiculous. If it were true, we would have occupied and taken over Kuwait back in 1991 and went into Iraq and done the same thing.
    '76 Cadillac Fleetwood Seventy-Five Limousine, '95 Lincoln Town Car.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fleet 500
    Enough with that false claim. Many other governments made the same claims as the U.S. government. It wasn't a "lie."
    Slightly sweeping statement there. Might want to review that...

    Enough of that, too... making claims of the U.S. "war mongering" and "imperialism" is ridiculous. If it were true, we would have occupied and taken over Kuwait back in 1991 and went into Iraq and done the same thing.
    Bush described himself as a "war president".

    And has it occurred to you that maybe you're not that great as a nation of arms? Or did you forget that you got soundly beaten by a bunch of midgets in straw hats back in the '60s and '70s? No, wait a minute... they don't actually teach that in schools anymore...

    Contrary to Hollywood, you can lose things.

    Sorry.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by IWantAnAudiRS6
    Slightly sweeping statement there. Might want to review that...
    I have reviewed it. Many times over the last several years.


    Bush described himself as a "war president".
    He did... but only after 9/11.

    And has it occurred to you that maybe you're not that great as a nation of arms? Or did you forget that you got soundly beaten by a bunch of midgets in straw hats back in the '60s and '70s? No, wait a minute... they don't actually teach that in schools anymore...
    The U.S. didn't "lose" in Vietnam... we had won every battle. The people in Vietnam didn't want to help free their country from Communism; that was the main problem.
    '76 Cadillac Fleetwood Seventy-Five Limousine, '95 Lincoln Town Car.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fleet 500
    The U.S. didn't "lose" in Vietnam... we had won every battle.
    Yeah Just like 1812...


  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fleet 500
    Yeah, if Bill were still in charge, there was be terrorist attacks continuing and he would be doing little or nothing about it. Just like he did in the '90s.
    Clinton was bad because he was too passive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleet 500
    I guess Clinton is even more of a "guns blazing" type of guy, even though he isn't from Texas.
    Clinton was bad because he was too belligerent.

    Perhaps Clinton did "nothing" about terrorism because he had the intelligence to understand that you cannot "defeat" terrorism, no more than you could defeat "romance", "jumping" or even "Wednesday".

    The cause of terrorism is not a lack of armed patrols of towns and villages across the Middle East - so how can that be a solution?

    The cause of terrorism is not British holiday makers - so how is it a solution to insist on invasive background checks into people's Credit Card records, Passport records, Email accounts, fingerprinting and retinal scans just to get to DisneyLand?

    Terrorism as a threat to any person's personal safety is grossly overestimated anyway.

    Consider that approximately 3000 people died on 11/9/01 due to terrorism in the USA - or 0.00001% of the population.

    Consider that there were no large scale terrorist attacks in America for the 5 years preceding or following 11/09/01 (unless I've forgotten anything), making the average yearly death toll due to terrorism for the decade 0.000001% of the population per year.

    40,000 deaths per year are caused by road accidents in the USA - you are over a hundred times more likely to be killed by a car than a terrorist, yet are people clamouring to have their car keys taken from them to prevent possible accidents in the way some seem keen to have their liberties taken away to save them from a terrorist attack that wouldn't happen anyway?

    Logic surrenders.
    Thanks for all the fish

  14. #89
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    Thanks for your input Jack

    I'd also say that points 1 and 3 from the first group were also hugely important in swaying public opinion against the war. America likes to see itself ..
    To explore .. from my observations (via TV & press reports, what US politicians tout, and internet reflections expressed by Americans etc) one gains the unavoidable impression that Americans are generally oblivious to the awful Iraqi sufferings, which have been imposed by America. It's like "gee look at that Arab, his head is blown clear off!" or "yuk, look how those uncivilised 3rd world'ers jabber hysterically at funerals" or "geez what a shithole" rather than any real sense of empathy towards the REAL victims

    For those victims of US policy there appears a dispassionate US disconnect, while the overwhelming focus - and sympathy - belongs almost exclusively toward those comparitively miniscule US casualties

    Conversely the horrific ongoing loss of Iraqi life and massive destruction therein fails to register, and is largely ignored or rates almost as an afterthought, at best - being of no real consequence or import to the American psyche at large

    Kinda like the japanese 'loss of face' where you can only see reflections of a mirror, never through & beyond ..

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coventrysucks
    Clinton was bad because he was too passive.
    I agree.


    Perhaps Clinton did "nothing" about terrorism because he had the intelligence to understand that you cannot "defeat" terrorism, no more than you could defeat "romance", "jumping" or even "Wednesday".
    Doing nothing about terrorism allows it to flourish.


    Terrorism as a threat to any person's personal safety is grossly overestimated anyway.

    Consider that approximately 3000 people died on 11/9/01 due to terrorism in the USA - or 0.00001% of the population.

    Consider that there were no large scale terrorist attacks in America for the 5 years preceding or following 11/09/01 (unless I've forgotten anything), making the average yearly death toll due to terrorism for the decade 0.000001% of the population per year.

    40,000 deaths per year are caused by road accidents in the USA - you are over a hundred times more likely to be killed by a car than a terrorist, yet are people clamouring to have their car keys taken from them to prevent possible accidents in the way some seem keen to have their liberties taken away to save them from a terrorist attack that wouldn't happen anyway?

    Logic surrenders
    You call that "logic?" Trying to equate car accidents with terrorism?
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