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Thread: How the Manufacturers are Doing...

  1. #31
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    Yeah, I'd rather ditch the plastic myself. I've seen what people call "good" plastics in cars these days, but...it's so obviously plastic it's a real detractor. Plastic can be made strong, sure (take a look at my Nalgene water bottle - it'll stop a .22 cold at 15 yards), but there's nothing luxurious or rich about it. And besides which...I haven't seen strong plastic in a vehicle yet. Nearly verything that broke on the interior of our Toyota Sienna, VW Passat, Dodge Caravan (the least reliable mechanically, but the most reliable otherwise), Ford Bronco, Dodge Ram Van, and especially VW New Beetle was obviously or traced back to plastic. Wonder why it hasn't won me over, either?

    Anyhow, I am actually surprised that Ford's slipping. I really thought Ford has had the best overall lineup of vehicles out of the Big Three, and those most able to compete tit-for-tat with the favoured import marques. Must be something I'm missing.

    Now, on an individual basis, I think Chrysler has two of the best cars out there with the 300c and the Magnum (not really a fan of the Charger or the Ram). The MDS is pretty silly, IMHO, so it wouldn't break my heart if they ditched that. Cad's V8-6-4 still leaves a bad taste in my mouth (sorry Fleet...not Cad's best moment)
    An it harm none, do as ye will

    Approximately 79% of statistics are made up.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fleet 500
    Shoulder belts (which all of my cars have) prevent being hurled against a steel dash.
    No the don't all the time
    You can submarine and you can twist out of sholuder belts.
    Why air bags are there and why competition cars use 4 or 5 point belts
    You may be a fan of plastic; I'm not. Let's face it, plastic is used because it's cheaper than metal and because it helps save weight.
    And it can be moulded to more "interesting" shapes from a design perspective AND provide compressive protection to knees, arms ( and heads for the idiots )
    I think your opinion is perhaps based on the nasty plastics used in American cars ?
    SOME cars plastics are excellent and can be difficult to identify as plastic !!
    It's nice to have both. A good engine and leather and wood on the inside.
    yeah but what about all that awful vinyl in the cars the "common man" got offered in teh 70s
    "A woman without curves is like a road without bends, you might get to your destination quicker but the ride is boring as hell'

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fleet 500
    The 4.6L (281-cubic-inch) Ford V-8, used in Fords, Mercurys and Lincolns is all of the above.
    Can you get me some MPG stats on it?

    And correct me if i'm wrong but I do believe there was a problem with cracking manifolds on that particular engine...

    And the 4.0l 6 cylinder used in the Ford Falcon is decidedly more efficient than it, and thats just the non-turbo version...
    Last edited by Spastik_Roach; 02-03-2007 at 03:14 PM.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spastik_Roach
    Can you get me some MPG stats on it?

    And correct me if i'm wrong but I do believe there was a problem with cracking manifolds on that particular engine...

    And the 4.0l 6 cylinder used in the Ford Falcon is decidedly more efficient than it, and thats just the non-turbo version...
    I believe it's the interceptor(cop car) version that breaks.

    I think a 3.0L Duratec V6 might satisfy your request. I'm not really sure though.
    Last edited by Mr.Tiv; 02-03-2007 at 03:20 PM.
    Go n-ithe an cat thu, is go n-ithe an diabhal an cat

    When you go Home, Tell them for us and say 'For your tommorrow, We Gave Our Today.'

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spastik_Roach
    Can you get me some MPG stats on it?

    And correct me if i'm wrong but I do believe there was a problem with cracking manifolds on that particular engine...

    And the 4.0l 6 cylinder used in the Ford Falcon is decidedly more efficient than it, and thats just the non-turbo version...
    I did post some mpg figures on the "Ford Crown Vic" thread. It's around 17-25 mpg in the 4,000-lb Town Cars; maybe 1 mpg more on the Ford Crown Vic and Mercury Grand Marquis. In any case, very good mileage for a full-sized, 6-passenger car. I've seen 6-cyl Toyotas, Mazdas, etc get the same or even worse mpg. And, of course, many trucks and SUVs, even the smaller ones, average only 17 or 18 mpg.

    The plastic manifolds were from '96 until at least '98; not sure when they went back to whatever they were using before. My '95 TC does not have the plastic manifold. The owners would just put on an aluminum manifold, no big deal, and the engine would last 200,000, 300,000+ miles.

    Anyway, the 4.6 Ford engine is one of their best and has been around quite a while (since 1991, I believe).
    '76 Cadillac Fleetwood Seventy-Five Limousine, '95 Lincoln Town Car.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fleet 500
    I did post some mpg figures on the "Ford Crown Vic" thread. It's around 17-25 mpg in the 4,000-lb Town Cars; maybe 1 mpg more on the Ford Crown Vic and Mercury Grand Marquis. In any case, very good mileage for a full-sized, 6-passenger car. I've seen 6-cyl Toyotas, Mazdas, etc get the same or even worse mpg. And, of course, many trucks and SUVs, even the smaller ones, average only 17 or 18 mpg.
    I think my dad averages 24mpg in a 2003 Crown Victoria, which is, as I recall, actually, slightly over 4,000lbs. Surprsingly, that is only a wee bit worse than the 28mpg I get in a Buick Lesabre(I didn't pick it, so don't laugh at it) and the 30mpg my mom gets in a V6 Fusion.
    Last edited by Mr.Tiv; 02-03-2007 at 03:53 PM.
    Go n-ithe an cat thu, is go n-ithe an diabhal an cat

    When you go Home, Tell them for us and say 'For your tommorrow, We Gave Our Today.'

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine
    No the don't all the time
    You can submarine and you can twist out of sholuder belts.
    Why air bags are there and why competition cars use 4 or 5 point belts
    How often does that happen, though? A shoulder belt locks in place instantly, meaning the occupant is still against the seatback and there isn't much room to twist out of the belt (especially when it's fastened correctly).

    And it can be moulded to more "interesting" shapes from a design perspective AND provide compressive protection to knees, arms ( and heads for the idiots )
    I think your opinion is perhaps based on the nasty plastics used in American cars ?
    SOME cars plastics are excellent and can be difficult to identify as plastic !!
    "Interesting" plastic? I've never heard it referred to like that! As I said, you can keep your plastic and I'll take aluminum, metal, chrome and (real) wood. And "excellent" plastic? It's still plastic! Lol.

    yeah but what about all that awful vinyl in the cars the "common man" got offered in teh 70s
    Yeah, I prefer leather, and I'm glad all of my cars have leather seats.
    '76 Cadillac Fleetwood Seventy-Five Limousine, '95 Lincoln Town Car.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcp123
    Cad's V8-6-4 still leaves a bad taste in my mouth (sorry Fleet...not Cad's best moment)
    Yeah, I would avoid the Cads of the '80s. They either tried using different engines like the above or putting in underpowered V-8s, like the 249-cu-in engine. What were they thinking? A 249 engine in a 4,400-lb, 221" long car!?! Lincoln was smart and kept the 351 and 302 engines in the Town Car all through the '80s and would keep updating and refining it.
    And they never should have stop putting in real wood in the interior... the last year of real wood was 1969, then it returned in the mid- to late-'80s.
    I mean really.... how expensive would it have been to keep wood in the car?
    Well, at least you could get leather seats all through the '70s, '80s, '90s, etc.
    '76 Cadillac Fleetwood Seventy-Five Limousine, '95 Lincoln Town Car.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Tiv
    I think my dad averages 24mpg in a 2003 Crown Victoria, which is, as I recall, actually, slightly over 4,000lbs. Surprsingly, that is only a wee bit worse than the 28mpg I get in a Buick Lesabre(I didn't pick it, so don't laugh at it) and the 30mpg my mom gets in a V6 Fusion.
    Sounds about right. I've been averaging 20.5 mpg in my Town Car with about 75% surface street driving. I'm still amazed that a big luxury car with a V-8 can get the good mileage it does.

    Fleet
    '69 Fleetwood Brougham... 11 mpg
    '76 Fleetwood Limo.......... 10 mpg
    '95 Lincoln Town Car........ 20.5 mpg
    '76 Cadillac Fleetwood Seventy-Five Limousine, '95 Lincoln Town Car.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fleet 500
    Sounds about right. I've been averaging 20.5 mpg in my Town Car with about 75% surface street driving. I'm still amazed that a big luxury car with a V-8 can get the good mileage it does.

    Fleet
    '69 Fleetwood Brougham... 11 mpg
    '76 Fleetwood Limo.......... 10 mpg
    '95 Lincoln Town Car........ 20.5 mpg
    10 mpg-that's almost funny.

    He intentionally gets that 24mpg out of it, but, yeah, if you don't drive like an ass, you can get decent mileage out of the 4.6. When I use it, I don't get 24mpg; so, I guess I just called myself an ass.

    I prefer the Duratec to the 4.6. Out of curiosity, does anyone else have any experience with either of them?
    Last edited by Mr.Tiv; 02-03-2007 at 04:08 PM.
    Go n-ithe an cat thu, is go n-ithe an diabhal an cat

    When you go Home, Tell them for us and say 'For your tommorrow, We Gave Our Today.'

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Tiv
    10 mpg-that's almost funny.
    Lol. Yeah, if I drove it everyday, I would be broke by now! (It's driven once every 7-10 days.)

    He intentionally gets that 24mpg out of it, but, yeah, if you don't drive like an ass, you can get decent mileage out of the 4.6. When I use it, I don't get 24mpg; so, I guess I just called myself an ass
    Right, if you drive it hard, you get about 16 or 17 mpg. Maybe as low as 15. In all city driving, I got 17.8 mpg. Still pretty good.
    '76 Cadillac Fleetwood Seventy-Five Limousine, '95 Lincoln Town Car.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine
    Do you mean the DTI-ECOTEC engine ? It was an Opel design from Germany for the Eureopan market wasn't it ? What about good American -- be hard pressed to find a diesel one
    It was American funded, and I assume some American engineers were involved at some point... Does it have to be an engine that only Americans have ever touched, because people travel.
    PPC - Put a V8 in it!

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fleet 500
    How often does that happen, though? A shoulder belt locks in place instantly, meaning the occupant is still against the seatback and there isn't much room to twist out of the belt (especially when it's fastened correctly).
    No. Without pre-tensioners there is plenty of room for the upper body to twist out of the belt esp on a angled impact.
    Check out the descriptions of seat belt test and you'll see the issues clarified.
    "Interesting" plastic? I've never heard it referred to like that!
    Coz your only exposure is to American market interiors perhaps ?
    Intersting in term of shape was pretty clear from what I wrote I thought !!
    And "excellent" plastic? It's still plastic! Lol.
    Well once you actually see some excellent "Plastic" then you'll realise the point. In reality you've probably seen i already and not realised it
    It doesn't ALL have to be made out of second hand milk crates !!!!!
    Yeah, I prefer leather, and I'm glad all of my cars have leather seats.
    hmmmm, after it's been left out in the Colorado sun you STILL think leather is best ??? hmmmmmm
    "A woman without curves is like a road without bends, you might get to your destination quicker but the ride is boring as hell'

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by h00t_h00t
    It was American funded, and I assume some American engineers were involved at some point... Does it have to be an engine that only Americans have ever touched, because people travel.
    Don't think so.
    Opel funded out of Opel/Vauxhall Europe sales and market opportunities.
    WHY woudl an Americna engine designer with no experience come to Europe ? Other than to learn from the French
    "A woman without curves is like a road without bends, you might get to your destination quicker but the ride is boring as hell'

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine
    No. Without pre-tensioners there is plenty of room for the upper body to twist out of the belt esp on a angled impact.
    Check out the descriptions of seat belt test and you'll see the issues clarified.
    Some time back, I posted accident photos. A description of the accident and the injuries to the driver and/or passengers. It is pretty clear that shoulder belts prevented the minor to moderate injuries from becoming serious injuries. Further, shoulder belts did prevent many passengers' heads from coming in contact with the dash or windshield.

    Coz your only exposure is to American market interiors perhaps ?
    Intersting in term of shape was pretty clear from what I wrote I thought !!
    I'm more impressed with real wood and metal and chrome than any kind of "interesting" plastic. Again, that is one reason I like '50s, '60s and '70s cars.

    Well once you actually see some excellent "Plastic" then you'll realise the point. In reality you've probably seen i already and not realised it
    It doesn't ALL have to be made out of second hand milk crates !!!!!
    Plastic is plastic. I've visited a lot of car message boards and this is the first time I've ever seen anyone praise plastic! But, it you really like plastic that much, go right ahead.

    hmmmm, after it's been left out in the Colorado sun you STILL think leather is best ??? hmmmmmm
    Colorado? I'm in California. Anyway, I use leather treatment on the seats. And a big sunshade on the dash. And my '69 Fleetwood is parked in the garage; it's only exposed to the sun when I drive it which is only once every 5-10 days. (Incidentally, the leather interior, which is original, is in good condition. Not perfect, but very good considering it's now 38 years old.)
    '76 Cadillac Fleetwood Seventy-Five Limousine, '95 Lincoln Town Car.

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