TMR 380 on idle

[fpv_gtho]

Well the Territory's system is dual stage. You can choose to have the full electronics on, simply the TC, or nothing at all. Dont know how the other systems are, but i always assumed the "off" switch lived up to its name.

[nota]

The prospect of non defeatable ESP and T/C would have massive ramifications for that time honoured Aussie tradition of circle work

How could I have taught Mrs nota or my 4 nephews the basics of how to control skids .. if the car refuses me permission to do so?

With 33 years experience behind the wheel (most of it legal!) I still find that I need to periodically practice and hone my ability to control skids, and the onset of wet weather usually finds me generating lots of slow slides at low speed (like around Canberra's infamous roundabouts eg) to 'keep my reflexes in trim' as it were

Where will the driving standards head to if you can't do that anymore?

[motorsportnerd]

bluntly no amount of electronic wizardry will prevent said 18 year old from being a hoon. it just means that instead of learning the adhesion and grip limits, and indeed pulling some tricks for his mates, we'll create people overly reliant on the car to save their ass when trouble comes.

don't these systems go into backup mode anyway when you turn them off - that is unless you hold it for the right amount of time and do a little jig they're just in the background?

I think different manufacturers have different setups. IIRC, you cannot fully switch off the Mercedes ESP system.
And while people (young guys especially) will be hoons, and there is no fail safe way to prevent the type of accident I highlighted, that won't stop the media from having an absolute field day with the type of accident I highlighted and manufacturers deciding to legally protect themselves.
We already drive cars overly reliant on electronic systems. Adding ESP systems won't make any difference.
Most new drivers of today don't learn to drive in pre-1990s cars with minimal electronic systems. Many drivers on the road today have never driven a car with power-assisted brakes for example. My father reckoned I had it easy when I learned to drive - and I had a 1975 Ford Cortina with front-discs and synchromish on every gear. But it lacked power steering or power assistance for the brakes. And the suspension technology was pretty basic compared to today's cars. Whereas my father had a non-snychro gearbox and drum brakes. I believe he learned to drive in a late 1930s car - and it really was more of a challenge to learn to drive in those cars.
Also, there's plenty of evidence to suggest that ESP systems are bigger life savers than any safety advance since seatbelts became mandatory. It won't be many years before such systems are standard on all cars and I'll bet the majority of them will be non-switchable. The specialist motoring press will cry about it. And we may lose a few basic car control skills, but on the whole I think we will be better off and lives will be saved.
After all there will still be plenty of older cars to practice car control skills in.

[charged]

bluntly no amount of electronic wizardry will prevent said 18 year old from being a hoon. it just means that instead of learning the adhesion and grip limits, and indeed pulling some tricks for his mates, we'll create people overly reliant on the car to save their ass when trouble comes.

All I know at 16 when I got my license, I knew zero about adhesion and grip levels etc and only blind luck helped me a few times, thankfully no one was ever injured. I would prefer the inexperienced hoon driver to have every aid available to them because if they do get it all wrong on a public road and lose control the saftey systems be it abs, stability control etc gives them some control back to avoid the car, tree, people etc.

When my daughter reach driving age, only a few years from now I'll be buying them cars with as many saftey as possible, also before they hit the road a driver training course will be completed.*

*Incoherrent ramblings from a father who's daughters are getting older

[nota]

After all there will still be plenty of older cars to practice car control skills in.

Do you mean that owners of cars with non-defeatable ESP would and/or should have to purchase an older car in order to teach their children, or themselves, or keep themselves in practice, regards the ability to control skids?

How long is this system going to last for (?) before no one has the benefit of these basic driving skills anymore?

[motorsportnerd]

Compared to the generation of drivers who drove cars in the 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s and so on, we've already lost lots of basic car control skills. I doubt I developed as good car control skills as my father simply because the car I learned to drive in was so much better than what he had. But it doesn't matter that much - because all my peers are/were in the same boat. I could think that the newer generation of drivers has lost some of the art of driving and it would be true - current cars are that much easier to drive than the cars of the 1970s. But times change, and we can bemoan lost skills as much as we like. Electronics and safety systems will continue to get better. As will suspension systems. Eventually we'll reach the stage where cars drive themselves. And in terms of safety and saving people's lives we'll be better off.

[nota]

Your above sentiments unavoidably reminded me of a fairly recent Volvo media drive which encompassed a stretch of dirt-road driving near Canberra.

These Volvos were equipped with the latest in whiz-bang electronic trickery, and piloted by highly experienced drivers, yet all of this didn't prevent fully five of the seven car fleet leaving the road and crashing, basically, and all of them on the one single corner! In fact according to those involved, these elecro-nannies were the sole reason the cars left the roadway, they actually caused the cars to crash.

[SlickHolden]

I seen a study done, the more safer cars become the faster we drive.

But in 1995 if ESP was out and i stepped into my mother VB Commodore in the heavy rain with a puddle the size of 2 houses and a foot deep @ 85km/h in front of me and hit it and lost the front end we would be dead today under the truck next to us if i was only ever behind the wheel of a ESP car and got into the VB.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

I think different manufacturers have different setups. IIRC, you cannot fully switch off the Mercedes ESP system.
And while people (young guys especially) will be hoons, and there is no fail safe way to prevent the type of accident I highlighted, that won't stop the media from having an absolute field day with the type of accident I highlighted and manufacturers deciding to legally protect themselves.
We already drive cars overly reliant on electronic systems. Adding ESP systems won't make any difference.
Most new drivers of today don't learn to drive in pre-1990s cars with minimal electronic systems. Many drivers on the road today have never driven a car with power-assisted brakes for example. My father reckoned I had it easy when I learned to drive - and I had a 1975 Ford Cortina with front-discs and synchromish on every gear. But it lacked power steering or power assistance for the brakes. And the suspension technology was pretty basic compared to today's cars. Whereas my father had a non-snychro gearbox and drum brakes. I believe he learned to drive in a late 1930s car - and it really was more of a challenge to learn to drive in those cars.
Also, there's plenty of evidence to suggest that ESP systems are bigger life savers than any safety advance since seatbelts became mandatory. It won't be many years before such systems are standard on all cars and I'll bet the majority of them will be non-switchable. The specialist motoring press will cry about it. And we may lose a few basic car control skills, but on the whole I think we will be better off and lives will be saved.
After all there will still be plenty of older cars to practice car control skills in.

the problem with these systems is just as nota stated - when you can't turn them off they're can be problems - because the car does not always know what is going on or why the car is stopping or turning as it is. if the car doesn't understand then it can't be expected to save the driver.

I was extremely lucky in the sense that my father is a fairly decent driver (he managed to keep a Series II land rover on the road) who taught me the basics - NEVER swerve if your going to hit an animal, for example - and learning to drive in a Jeep certainly helped in regards to car control.

I'm all for giving younger drivers like myself every chance to save their life but methinks training them properly does a much better job of this that some electronic trickery. In the end most of these young people might learn to drive in mummy's commodore or Corolla, but they buy 20 year old cars without these things.

[Blue Supra]

In the end most of these young people might learn to drive in mummy's commodore or Corolla, but they buy 20 year old cars without these things.

Thats the issue a lot of young drivers have. Even in the driving schools cars are quite new and so they learn to drive ABS, power steering, electric mirrors, things i now take forgranted but when i first learnt back in the datsun without all that gear it was a positive becasue i could drive without it, going vice versa and driving a car without all the jazz after becoming dependant on it is just dangerous.

[motorsportnerd]

Driver training is very important. I agree 100%.
Its also worth noting that the safest car on the road would be one with a large spike in the middle of the steering pointing straight at the driver's chest. That would concentrate the mind wonderfully. However, I doubt such a safety advance would ever be introduced.
The queston about whether electronics such as ESP should be able to be turned off and whether it will result in loss of driver skill is not a new question.
The example of the Volvos above reminds me of tests done on the early ABS equipped Mercedes in the early 80s on wet roads and dirt roads - with the conclusion being that ABS was worse in those conditions than no ABS - and that a properly trained driver could brake more effectively than the computer. There were calls from enthusiasts to have the option to turn the ABS systems off. Of course, over the last 20 years, ABS systems have been developed to the point where they are better than non-ABS systems in all conditions. And no car has switchable ABS.
And to go further back, when automatic transmissions started to become common-place many bemoaned the fact that driving skill would be lost.
Every time new technology is introduced it can be argued that some driving skill will be lost.
I'm still not convinced that ESP systems should be switchable for road use. In 99% of road conditions, the ESP system, properly calibrated would be unnoticeable. And (like ABS before it) it can save lives in an emergency. It seems that dirt roads are the downfall of ESP systems - just like ABS in the early days. And for those enthusiasts who want to switch the ESP system off on track days, I'm sure something can be worked out.
The question of whether a learner driver should learn in a car without ABS, ESP, traction control, LSD, automatic gearbox or even power steering is an interesting one. Certainly, I think everyone should at least know how to drive a manual gearbox car, as much for practical reasons of then being able to drive any car as anything. There are certainly arguments that older cars would help drivers learn car control - but since that should be done in a controlled environment and not on public streets (yes, I know, young guys will be young guys - I was and I was lucky), it raises the argument for proper driver training for all in a controlled environment prior to hitting the road. Then one can learn as much car control skill as is needed.
But on the road, in day to day situations, I don't see modern electronics being a problem - in fact they should and do save lives.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

I've no doubt they save lives - i'm just saying that perhaps it's just as good to create drivers who can control they're cars should the need arise.

[motorsportnerd]

Yep - we should have compulsory driver training conducted in a controlled environment such as a race track.

[Blue Supra]

A spike at the chest... lol. would suck if someone hit you and they were in the wrong...

[SlickHolden]

A spike at the chest... lol. would suck if someone hit you and they were in the wrong...

That would be a prick hey.


Who did the test saying ESP wasn't as good on dirt roads?
I'll say that's wrong and come with me onto my test track We be doing sprint car racing with grandmothers and they wouldn't know it wasn't them doing it.
I noticed that even the most hardest forced wheels turns @ 80km/h couldn't get the ESP VE to spin out. If it's that good on very loose dirt roads it's going too be even better on our roads. But i liked it on all the time. But the down side of that is it gave me confidence maybe over confidence to.

With driver training it's about time it was cheaper. I know of a guy that went to one he had a massive ball doing it, Used his own car but it cost something like $200 i think. To much.

Government rebate half. By law you need to attend 4 of these in your first 4 years of driving, Then 2 before your 26. What do you think?