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Thread: Motorcycle power?

  1. #1
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    Motorcycle power?

    Would it be feasible to reengine something that initially had a 1300 cc car engine with an motorcycle engine of equal displacement? I am talking about things weighting around 800 kg here.

    The torque figure on the MC engine would beat that of the original car engine by some.

    What would the issues be? Anyone apart from Z Cars offering conversion kits?

    Btw. the car would be front engined, RWD, longitudinal installation. Not sure what car I'd get for it just yet

  2. #2
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    I think your biggest problem would be the completely different mounting points of the bike engine.

  3. #3
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    a guy in aus had a escort and he made a engine cradle for his car
    people like u dont need to be on this go to supid land where your mind is ass - toyota4ever

    ricers suck...pasta rockets for life - sicilian973-2

  4. #4
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    In a nut the answer to your question would be yes, but the cost would be the determining factor. As Drakkie has pointed before the engine mounts would need fabrication, but also almost every other auxiliary system (cooling, electrics, transmission).

    I have seen succesful applications on Lotus Seven kit cars and in "track day" cars such as the Radical. This cars will generally weight closer to 600kg and will handle the torque delivery of such engines better than heavier ones (max toruqe would be higher but at low rpm it's really low, making starts difficult). I think 800 kg is a little heavy.

    Doing a quick search I found this mini with a Hayabusa engine. It's crazy in that it has a mid-engine layout and its rwd. Here ya go:

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...59502945869301

    If you are planning a mini conversion (cool!) there are plenty Honda VTECs and Suzuki Swift swaps that have been documented on the web. Start by searching for ringmini for Honda swaps and for minisuki for swift swaps.
    Last edited by magracer; 08-14-2006 at 03:59 PM.
    Zag when they Zig

  5. #5
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    oh that is no problem at all!
    I race with alot of the "seven" cars that has Yamaha R1, Kawazaki ZX 12 R or Honda Blackbird engiens. The engien mounting problem is also not a very big problem if you are willing to pay for it or have the engienering capabilitys.. In a simple way: you can weld a rigid frame for the engien and place several engien mounts, wherever you want around the engien and in the engien bay..
    A guy in my town has bulid a BMW E30 with a ZX 12 R Kawazaki engien
    It has a weight actually of 800 kg
    It goes like hel

    Couldn't find much about it, but i'll keep looking..
    Here is one smal pic, down on the page, the Kawazaki green one
    http://www.nrk.no/programmer/tv/autofil/1.425344

  6. #6
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    You could also use the motorcycle gearbox as well....several Mini conversion with the busa/R1 engine covert the car to be mid engine, with chain and sprocket driving the rear wheel.....
    University of Toronto Formula SAE Alumni 2003-2007
    Formula Student Championship 2003, 2005, 2006
    www.fsae.utoronto.ca

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by RacingManiac
    You could also use the motorcycle gearbox as well....several Mini conversion with the busa/R1 engine covert the car to be mid engine, with chain and sprocket driving the rear wheel.....
    The guys wich use R1s use the gearbox in the engien to but not chain and sprocket, fixed axel conversion straight from the engien to the rearaxel.

    The guys who use Blackbird engiens use sprocket and chain conversion though.. It's not a good system.. They have over the years had loads of problems with lubrication and maintainance issues with the system..
    But it works though

  8. #8
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    Also, if it's going to be front engine'd it would easier to hook it up to an ordinary diff... just a low-power rating one.

    All of it comes down to one of two things: your own engineering prowess and the facilities you have F.O.C. access to; or the size of your wallet.

    Anything is possible within the confines of those two critera!
    www.crash.net/motoring/roadcars/news/home/

  9. #9
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    That E30 conversion looks interesting (I believe the E30 is a bit over the 800 kg, too?).

    As for the two questions, my engineering prowess at the moment is next to non existent, which is one of the reasons I'd like to get into a "project", the size of my wallet might increase, though, especially if I convince a friend or two to contribute

  10. #10
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    that green E30 is VERY stripped...
    I have looked inside it, it looks like a racecar inside..
    But an original E 30?? No way

  11. #11
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    Best to hook it up to some electrical motor to produce a hybrid, taking away the problem of low torque at low revs but in this case I got into a price category (and complexity category) beyond what is feasible.

    In any case, thanks!

  12. #12
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    The methods of increase of economy of engines of internal combustion.

    Any engine of internal combustion not only in vain throws out the most part (70 - 80 %) of thermal energy received in work, moreover he even collapses, if will lose an opportunity, through system of cooling to give water his heat. On the other hand, receiving it warmly water, converted up to the steam in process of the boiling or volatilization, at usual atmospheric pressure increases itself in the volume in 1700 times. Thus obtained the steam can help one’s pressure of working gas to actuate pistons or turbines of thermal engines and to give an essential increment of a power, the maximal twisting moment and efficiency of these motors. The water, previously up heated, is sprayed directly in cylinders of injection engines. From contact with the burning fuel heated by the piston and the cylinder, the water up boils. Then extending itself the steam helps working gases to set pistons in motion. Here injection of water actually replaces with itself a turbo forced aspiration. In this case will not be broken a stoichiometric parity of quantity of fuel and air extremely compressed by the compressor, which by very much high pressure of air complicates process of formation of electric spark. For ecology the steam, extending itself in the cylinder, is much more safe, than the compressed air comprising up to 80 % of nitrogen from which at a heat and a pressure, arise pernicious for the nature the chemical compound with superfluous oxygen. Also excess oxygen in strongly compressed air leads to undesirable burnout of cylinders, buckets, piston rings, valves and to oxidation of electric contacts of candles. Some motorists assure, what even after many years of operation by engines of internal combustion with injection of water, an interior of its cylinders look as new. More effective direct cooling (and greasing) by water of the hot and intensively rubbing surfaces of the cylinder prolongs a life of all the motor. Besides an increase of power and fuel economy on 15 - 20 %, the injection of water also essentially improves cooling itself of the motor as cylinders are cooled by water not so much from outside, how many from within. Unfortunately, owing to very complex adjustment, insufficient reliability and high cost, motors with injection of water have received prevalence only on aircrafts, on sport cars and on amateur auto-homemade products (in the latter case not always they justify itself). But achievements of a modern science and technique, especially of the electronics, allow hoping for much efficiency of motors with injection of water. Just electronics can determine the exact doses of injection into cylinders of water and also of her a preliminary heating up from external walls of cylinder in a water jacket and from an exhaust nozzle with the muffler, by catalyst converter and the soot filter, so as to in the moment of injection, the temperature of water, was as much as possible approached to its boiling point which in the compressed gas environment inevitably increases.

    Pressure, p (Atm.) 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 … x<
    Boiling temperature of water, t (grade/C*) - 100 119 132 141 150 157 163 168 173 178 182 … 430
    Certainly, when into cylinders the pressure reaches more than 500 atmospheres, the boiling temperature of water will be considerably above, but already at temperature above ~ 430 C* all volume of water becomes gaseous irrespective of further the raises up of pressure. Preliminary heating up of water is necessary for intensification of process of steam exhalation. Than more the waters will boil in cylinders of acting engine of internal combustion, so much be more saved the fuel and the nature on our Planet. At superfluous heating the cylinder the microprocessor can increase submission in his the waters, but lessen the delivery of fuel in his exactly so that from this replacement, at existing loading, the speed of rotation of the engine has remained same what was established by the driver. In an ideal (at good regulation), engine with injection of water can already do without the bulky radiator worsening aerodynamic resistance of quickly moving car, and also without the ventilator, which provide the refrigerating of engine by air outside. In this case the water pump, besides reliability should, irrespective from a mode of behavior of engine of internal combustion, quickly and precisely to change the productivity and pressure of water, sent from he. It is desirable a pressure of water in a cooling water jacket adapt by electronics to each timing period of work of the engine as the cylinders (especially from alloys of light metals) from heat become soft and under greater pressure are deformed to forming the undesirable spacings between pistons and cylinders, or to the inadmissible convex camber-s interfering in movement of pistons. Water should be well cleared, otherwise the scum will quickly cork thin spray jets. So as in very short a time of one cycle of the engine (1/250 share of second) water has had time to boil completely else in the cylinder, her spray must be entering by very small droplets through set of very fine bores (diameter about 0,1 mm), under greater pressure. However acceptably, so as any part of water turned into steam already after output of water from the cylinder with the hot exhausted gases in an outlet pipe. Then it will be possible to lower temperature and noise of the gases thrown out by cars, and increased (from the boiling or of the super-heating of steam) their volume will allow effectively rotating the electric turbine established inside of the same tube. Also as and of the water, it is necessary to heat up and the fuel, before as his inject into cylinders of the engine. Then the warmed up fuel becomes less viscous, passes through very narrow passes of spray jets is easier, is more thin is sprayed, mixes up with air is better, is ignited and is fuller, burns down, so, except for fuel economy, allows to depress an electric voltage on spark plugs and to prolong term of their work. It’s known, that at strong colds, the minus of 90 degrees on Celsius (at station the East in Antarctica), even the aviation gasoline does not burn and practically does not evaporate. The air, participating in burning, previously must not warm up but, on the contrary, it is desirable to cool, as it - gas, and unlike liquids and solids, at heating very strongly increases (here prematurely) own volume. Injected water and the steam, formed from it, can create the necessary temperature, pressure, speed and even of a form of distribution of a flame in the cylinder, what will allow to prevent the explosive phenomena (detonation), so as without harm for the engine, to create even greater pressure of the mixture of fuel with the air or (and) to use cheaper low-octane gasoline. For example, at high moisture of air (while is rainy weather) engine of internal combustion more softly work, more easily, at least, on external feeling. In winter the water needs to be warmed up by engine and stored in a thermos or in a tank from heat-insulating polymers or ceramics, or to dilute it by alcohol. To avoid rust in the idle motor, electronics disconnects injection of water for some instants before a stop of the engine.

  13. #13
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    I have found a mistake in this idea. Sprayed cold water does not cool steam, but on the contrary, heat up by energy, allocated in condensation. This phenomenon was used in locomotives injectors of system of Fridman (Freedman).
    http://railways.id.ru/glossary/injector.html

    http://www.sciteclibrary.ru/cgi-bin/...num=1160393441

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by VasilijB
    Pressure, p (Atm.) 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 x<
    Boiling temperature of water, t (grade/C*) - 100 119 132 141 150 157 163 168 173 178 182 430
    copy and paste anyone? nice to see some digestable posts on the go
    i'd argue more technically but i cant be bothered reading all that.
    autozine.org

  15. #15
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    Boy...what a posting....Firstly have you used water injection? I played around with a kit I purchased around 25 years ago. It had adjustments for volume flow and time. It definitely increased the power slightly by an estimated 2-4 kW when operating on a 50kW engine.

    I found that if I injected water for over 5 seconds on acceleration it caused misfires. And it only worked on medium to heavy acceleration. I think this was due to the combustion temperatures decreasing under light load where most people are looking for better fuel efficiencies.

    Water injection was used on the spitfire plane at one stage. Under full throttle it was reported to give the Rollsroyce engine about another 100Hp. But again it was used under heavy loads.

    One thing for sure, when I took my cylinder head off after using water injection for a year, it was clean as a whistle.

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